Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

So uncounterable kiting is perfectly legit.

And I'm pretty sure everybody is familiar with the kiting done on Hyrule Temple.

Trying a little bit too hard to sound like you're refuting someone. Doesn't quite work when the person first of all didn't imply what you just said nor said anything that entails it. Second of all, Hyrule Temple is a banned stage.

L-cancelling was removed from brawl for a reason and won't be coming back in future installments, I'd bet my life on it. There's technical depth to be found elsewhere that requires the player to make an actual decision on whether or not to apply their technical knowledge. Muscle memory is not depth.

Spoken like a true fighting game scrub. All tech-skill is basically muscle memory. If you read a couple of posts above yours, you'd see an endless list of ATs from other important fighting games that are analogous to l-canceling in practically every way.

And I seriously hope that you lose that bet.

Strawmans. Strawmans everywhere!!

Arguably not a straw man. He's kind of presenting slippery slope that game development ought to fall through if they're to accept your reasoning.

I think you should read my large post and try to say something about instead of regurgitating already refuted arguments.

It's like he explained. Lcanceling has nothing to do with skill. It's pure automatic muscle memory. There is no reason to do it so you automatically do it every time you land with something. After playing for a while everyone can do it pretty 100% of the time so it's basically the same even if the technique didn't exist in the first place. It just annoys the player for having to press an extra button every time he lands even though it gives him basically no advantage since it's easy enough for everyone to do it anyways.

LOL

Damn it's hard to argue with Melee players when their argument is on such level as "Melee is good because Melee is Melee and Melee is good, therefore Melee is good"
"Brawl is crap because it's Brawl and Brawl is crap, therefore Brawl is crap"

Now THIS is a straw man.

Subjective, subjective, SUBJECTIVE.

Oh look, another it's another middle school kid thinking he has some sort of philosophical knowledge we don't all have. "Subjective"? Aww my gawd, I've never heard that word before.

Once you grow up out of your oversimplified world-view bubble, you'll realize that essentially all value is subjective. However, subjective is not the same as arbitrary. There's a reason why people expect people with particular cognitive faculties to accept propositions of subjective evaluation. There's a reason why Justin Beiber will never be regarded by the intellectual society as equal to Mozart.

You guys do realize I am neutral when it comes to Melee vs Brawl? I play both games at a tournament level and I consider them equal. Why do you have to throw in an ad hominem like saying we think Lcancel is bad because you can't do it? We could as well say Brawl is just too hard for you so that's why you hate. It gets us nowhere.

While I applaud your intention to decrease fallacy in reasoning, I think you should be reminded that an ad hominem can be a perfectly cogent argument. It is after all an inductive argument. And when the opposition is void of any viable position, then it's really not all that risky to throw that out there.

What would make a much, much better system would be like Lcancel, except if your move hits a shield, you need to input it with R, if it hits a character, you need to input it with L. If it whiffs, you lost the ability to Lcancel at all.
Now this would mean you cannot blindly throw aerials as they will lag, like in many fighters normals cannot be canceled into other normals on whiff. And it would also make you have to think what button to press. It would require more skill and such. Requiring a simple L button makes it too automatic and it doesn't add anything to the game.

I don't know if I like this idea. There are many cancel-able moves and feints out there in other fighting games. L-canceling does kind of seem like a "every whiff safe" mechanic at points. Maybe meter based mechanic wouldn't be all too bad a fix.


seriously. if you guys think you have something to say. try to make it in response to this post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15078839&postcount=124

 

[Baskerville]

Well this thread went nasty real quick.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

It depends on the barrier exactly. Let me provide a few good examples of execution barriers that are positive because of what they provide:

Motion based inputs like qcfs and sonic boom inputs are there because they provide the option of the character to have several different kinds of special moves or have as little as possible. Ibuki from Street Fighter is able to have eight specials while Guile has been able to have his signature two. If you were to simplify this, you might force something where the characters can only have a specific amount of specials like Smash restricting every character to four specials.

Uh.. by that rhetoric, l-canceling gives you the chance to have more kinds of aerials instead of something like just n-air so it's a positive thing. Certain obstacles can be introduced (like platforms and shielding) to make the technique harder, so conversely it can also take away options.

It's analogous.

With the case of L-Canceling, it's kind of like making an input harder than it needs to be. It would be like making every of Viper's feint cancels requiring an pretzel motion+P.

Pressing a single correctly timed button is like making a pretzel motion+P?

And you guys think we have no point when we say it's just obvious that some of you can't play the game? L-canceling is basically a meterless free-canceling. Also screw Viper and her condition of "not-hard-to-use-at-all".

 

[Kink-Link5]

There is literally no reason for the level of hostility noirscyth is giving people. I'm on his side of the argument and I can still tell he's being ridiculously obtuse and aggressive for absolutely no purpose.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

There is literally no reason for the level of hostility noirscyth is giving people. I'm on his side of the argument and I can still tell he's being ridiculously obtuse and aggressive for absolutely no purpose.

Give it some time. Let it sink.

I
Now question:
What do you hardcore Melee players think about project M? It has L-canceling so, given your criteria, I figure it must be good, right?

The consensus seems to be:

"Yeah, it's good, but it's somehow not as good as Melee."

 

[Smooth Criminal]

He's getting his jollies. Let him be.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Vkrm]

How the hell did lzr get away with saying brawl is the more balanced game? At no point in the course of melee's competitive history did they ever have to ban a character.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

L-cancelling is great! It only takes a month or two MAX to have down to second nature, and it gives newcomers something legitimately game-changing to distinguish themselves from 99% of casuals.

Hell no is it gonna be in the next smash game though LOL. It's pretty easy to notice the trend of fighting games getting less technically demanding over the past few years. I don't see NINTENDO of all companies being the one to change this atm.

 

[Black Mantis]

Brawl? Campy?

*watches melee 2012 apex grand finals*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There are actually a lot of misconceptions about how different Brawl and Melee are and why they're different. Melee is a very campy game, the difference is that it's more like a traditional fighting game in that once you take down someone's camp, they might not recover unless you mess up. In a neutral position, Melee is the definition of a campy game.

That's OK and there's nothing wrong with preferring that kind of gameplay over Brawl's (and truly, many of you guys do).

However off-topic this is, I want to stress that while Melee does have a longer period of "effective" hitstun, that is the amount of time before you can act after you're hit, most of Melee's "combo" potential has very little to do with that. Pillaring is probably the most profound effect I can think of right now; vertical combos and juggling otherwise seem to be kind of rare at high levels and many of these cases seem to be "abuse" cases that even Melee players don't really like (Jiggs' upthrow to rest). Most of the impressive and popular "combos" in melee are actually just very long strings. The guy who is being hit has less options due to higher gravity (which forces techs that can be read and responded to more often than in Brawl), reduced ledge snap distance (which allows you to punish recoveries more easily than you can in Brawl), and an air dodge that can only be used once before going into special fall.

There are cases where increased "hitstun" (a word which is actually a misnomer because Brawl and Melee have identical hitstun durations) allows for true combos, especially early on, but many strings are actually stuff like: uthrow onto platform, high gravity forces tech, tech is punished with up air and immediately followed up with another aerial that sends off-stage, player goes to ledge and gets punished for trying to recover until death. Very little of a string like that is really "true combo" stuff and has more to do with the player having very limited options all of which are easily covered. It is arguably easier to cover options in melee due to its mechanics.

I would be interested in a game with say, Brawl's gravity and hitstun mechanics with melee's airdodge, shield stun, and ledge mechanics. Sure, you can escape that hitstun combo but it comes at a risk of being punished afterwards. This would probably have to come with lower KB resistance across the board, though.

 

[-LzR-]

Can we please discuss this in a less aggressive way? I absolutely hate the Melee vs Brawl rant as people have their own preferences and both game have their great and bad things. At this rate, inb4thelock.

 

[Baskerville]

Discussions revolving around gameplay in the Smash 4 Boards always turn to **** because of a select few of people trying to start Melee vs. Brawl arguments whatever chance they get. It's at the point of being really petty and pointless.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, no. This started out as a Brawl vs. Melee argument. What game was L-cancelling in? Melee. Which game was it removed for? Brawl.

Which game will it be coming back in?

None.

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl? Campy?

*watches melee 2012 apex grand finals*

Hmmmm.... This is a very good post. If you can base your entire opinion of the metagame on one match then melee=brawl for sure. For the thousands and thousands of time outs in brawl people found one in melee. And I'm sure there's at least 1 match in brawl that isn't campcentric.


Supermodel, have you even played melee? You say melee is camp, and then provide evidence to contradict yourself. If the follow ups were as simple as you seem to think, then people would be trying to get that first hit ASAP.

The mental aspects in the read based combo game are non-existent compared the high mobility and traping based meta in melee's neutral game. I don't doubt that brawl gives you a lot of chances to save yourself on hit, but is that really a good mechanic? In melee, because of you more control over di, you can save yourself. It's on you. The game engine isn't gonna bail you out, and it's your fault you're there in the first place. You got hit afterall, so you lost part 1 of the mental battle in melee. It's like, in brawl you have to wait until someone scores a hit for the pvp process to begin. Theres all this pointless nonsense before the fight even really starts. Very bad game design IMO.

 

[Big-Cat]

And you guys think we have no point when we say it's just obvious that some of you can't play the game? L-canceling is basically a meterless free-canceling. Also screw Viper and her condition of "not-hard-to-use-at-all".

And you don't find anything wrong with this?

 

[Vkrm]

I don't. It's like that thing in soul caliber 4 where if you time it right during a combo you flash and get a stronger version of a move. It's called just timing I believe

 

[-LzR-]

Any of you disagree with my idea of the R and L cancel thing? I think that would solve all the problems in the game and increase the amount of skill required to do safe stuff by a great margin without being too automatic or artificial.

 

[Vkrm]

I like your idea. Blarg's works well too. Maybe namco found a better middle ground. Have to wait and see I guess.

 

[DrinkingFood]

R and L cancel idea? Which was that?

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

And you don't find anything wrong with this?

In a game of variable knockback? Not really. Variable knockback virtually gets rid of any KoF 2002 Plus infinites that were based around free-canceling.

There are actually a lot of misconceptions about how different Brawl and Melee are and why they're different. Melee is a very campy game, the difference is that it's more like a traditional fighting game in that once you take down someone's camp, they might not recover unless you mess up. In a neutral position, Melee is the definition of a campy game.

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about since I can't follow you in the slightest.

However off-topic this is, I want to stress that while Melee does have a longer period of "effective" hitstun, that is the amount of time before you can act after you're hit, most of Melee's "combo" potential has very little to do with that. Pillaring is probably the most profound effect I can think of right now; vertical combos and juggling otherwise seem to be kind of rare at high levels and many of these cases seem to be "abuse" cases that even Melee players don't really like (Jiggs' upthrow to rest). Most of the impressive and popular "combos" in melee are actually just very long strings. The guy who is being hit has less options due to higher gravity (which forces techs that can be read and responded to more often than in Brawl), reduced ledge snap distance (which allows you to punish recoveries more easily than you can in Brawl), and an air dodge that can only be used once before going into special fall.

It seems like when you're not thinking about Falco, you're thinking about Falcon and Sheik in Melee. Falcon and Sheik are very tech-chase based characters, and I guess tech-chases can be considered resets from strict combos, but it's hard to delineate.

Anyway, there are a plethora of combos that depend on hitstun that are actively used in high competitive play. It's just that combos really aren't all the long by themselves.

Anyway, I'm okay with discussing the semantics. Don't many people consider inescapable setups after a combo continuation of the combo anyway? What is the difference between a properly executed tech-chase and a SFA3 combo following an ukemi? What about perhaps a proper rock-paper-scissors mechanic in one of the newer ****ty Dragonball Z games?

There are cases where increased "hitstun" (a word which is actually a misnomer because Brawl and Melee have identical hitstun durations) allows for true combos, especially early on, but many strings are actually stuff like: uthrow onto platform, high gravity forces tech, tech is punished with up air and immediately followed up with another aerial that sends off-stage, player goes to ledge and gets punished for trying to recover until death. Very little of a string like that is really "true combo" stuff and has more to do with the player having very limited options all of which are easily covered. It is arguably easier to cover options in melee due to its mechanics.

You really just said "hitstun is not hitstun because the hitstun between the two games is not different". That's some nonsensical tautology.

The claim about both games having identical hitstun duration is just false. Falcon knee a character in Brawl at 80% and Falcon knee a character in Melee at 80%. Notice how you can press buttons immediately in Brawl right after being hit, while the Melee character just takes a much longer time to be able to do anything unless he hits the floor or a wall that he can tech. Significantly less hitstun in Brawl is a reason why momentum cancel became such a significant AT in Brawl, while in Melee you can only DI in KO situations.

Can we please discuss this in a less aggressive way? I absolutely hate the Melee vs Brawl rant as people have their own preferences and both game have their great and bad things. At this rate, inb4thelock.

Let's make a trade. I'll give up the aggressiveness when you give up the dumbness. :v

Sorry, no. This started out as a Brawl vs. Melee argument. What game was L-cancelling in? Melee. Which game was it removed for? Brawl.

There was not a Brawl vs Melee argument until you guys started claiming that there was and derailed the thread with your misconceptions.

Think about it this way. A group of philosophers were discussing what is the best form of existential or continental philosophy, and in elaborating their points they used the example of how Christianity went wrong to discredit some of its fundamental characteristics. Then an uneducated redneck bunch of business majors from Alabama came to the forum and noticed that their beloved doctrine wasn't regarded in very positive light by the philosophers and misconstrued the discussion as an "atheism vs christianity" debate, which it wasn't.

You're uneducated redneck business majors from Alabama.

 

[Big-Cat]

In a game of variable knockback? Not really. Variable knockback virtually gets rid of any KoF 2002 Plus infinites that were based around free-canceling.

Except variable knockback has nothing to do with L-Canceling being imbalanced. L-Canceling reduces landing recovery by half. The only relevance this would have is if you're trying to chase after the opponent after knocking him away, but reduced recovery would be advantageous regardless of the amount of knockback dealt.

 

[Vkrm]

Except variable knockback has nothing to do with L-Canceling being imbalanced. L-Canceling reduces landing recovery by half. The only relevance this would have is if you're trying to chase after the opponent after knocking him away, but reduced recovery would be advantageous regardless of the amount of knockback dealt.

There's a point in here somewhere. I just know there is. I probably just misinterpreted the post. I think what you're saying doesn't really work because you've already assumed lcancelling as it is in melee, is not balanced somehow.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Except variable knockback has nothing to do with L-Canceling being imbalanced. L-Canceling reduces landing recovery by half. The only relevance this would have is if you're trying to chase after the opponent after knocking him away, but reduced recovery would be advantageous regardless of the amount of knockback dealt.

What are we arguing here? The meterless KoF free-canceling analogy?

I really have no idea what you're trying to say to me.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The amount of complaining about L-canceling is perplexing.

While we're at it let's get rid of special and super canceling in Street Fighter. the act of doing an input for another move after another is too tedious and pointless. It does nothing more than extend a combo or block string. For the sake of it's continuity super and normal cancels should all be automatic. Do you really expect me to input a Quarter Circle Forward followed by a punch after my crouching Medium Kick? That's ridiculous.

Seriously guys it's not that far fetched. The existence of combos in fighting games in general were a complete fluke in design. There are many other ways to implement L-canceling if it's really that difficult to do. Like a previously mentioned, make it similar to a jump install in Guilty Gear; if you press L or R any time during or after you execute an aerial the cancel will go through automatically.

I honestly can't see why everyone is so against it in the first place. Then again this did turn into a Melee vs Brawl debate when some crash dummies decided to come in here and make comparisons, though admittedly i'm guilty of kindling the fire as well, this never had to be this way. I wished that we could have at least been blessed with people who have knowledge of both games. Only in a perfect world.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Noir scythe, about hitstun- in both brawl and melee, hitstun duration in number of frames is determined by a variable that factors with knockback to produce hitstun duration. Both games use the same variable. The difference is that Brawl has hitstun canceling. Allowing you to cancel hitstun with an aerial at frame 14 (16?) or an air dodge at frame 22(?). Effectively, the hitstun is lower since after those frames it doesn't really matter how much hitstun you would have taken. But that's what he meant by both games having the same hitstun duration. It's just not practically true because of hitstun canceling, so saying both games have the same hitstun duration is deceitful even in its technical correctness.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Allowing you to cancel hitstun with an aerial at frame 14 (16?) or an air dodge at frame 22(?).

The soonest action you can take out of hitstun is in this order:
Airdodge -> aerial(?)jump -> specials. I forget whether aerial or jump supersedes the other.

But anyway, melee has the best system we have seen implemented. In opinion, its stupid in smash64 to have all aerials cancel any landing lag. This reduces the effectiveness of defensive options on shield for example. It also makes it harder to punish people for being in the air. I believe its a good mechanic that people have landing lag of some sort to get some sort of offset for going in the air.

In Brawl, removing the ability to cancel lag is honestly not that problematic for the game play. Its more of a social issue. With proper balancing of aerial moves and its designated ending lag, you can give all aerials the effect of being L-canceled each and every time. Marth having 7 frames of ending lag after L-cancel on his fair is fairly balanced. Low enough to allow for combos on hit, but long enough to be punished for hitting shield or missing spacing a swing as he lands.
^With this approach of properly giving each aerial balanced ending lag at any point of the move is probably the way it should be. Its only a matter of do you want to add in the ability for people to get the ideal landing lag by an input or to make it automatic for them. Which I would be in favor of keeping the input for cutting away a portion of landing lag away. Keeps the game more interesting for longer as its a skill to build up.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No way in hell can you jump out of hitstun the same time you can aerial. Jump is disallowed until the hitstun value is genuinely and completely carried out or until the hitstun is canceled with an aerial or air dodge, the duration of which is shorter than the hitstun that would be accrued.

If you could just jump out of hitstun, Game and Watch would be living to 800%.

 

[Vkrm]

If you can jump, then you're not stunned. Anyway, do we agree in that there should be some form land lag canceling in smash 4?

 

[Master Knight DH]

What the **** is this? We're talking about fighting games. Not some RTS.

Not much of an argument. Try again when you can counter the logic I use that doesn't change between genres.

L canceling isn't predisposed to "faster" players...I'm a pretty slow player and I do it just fine (i use ganon).

It's simply a matter of knowing when to do it and remembering to do it

Really? You're not proving that to be anything but made up. Even if it wasn't made up, it doesn't change the fact that, as is at least, L-Cancelling is still counterintuitive and pointless at best.

Trying a little bit too hard to sound like you're refuting someone. Doesn't quite work when the person first of all didn't imply what you just said nor said anything that entails it. Second of all, Hyrule Temple is a banned stage.

Hyrule Temple is banned for a reason. So is New Pork City, which would have been a better example, but whatever.

Besides, you're acting like a strawman.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you can jump, then you're not stunned.

But you can't.

 

[Vkrm]

Yep you are right kink. I must've mis read. So is it like you either airdodge or attack? Only two choices? Three if you count do nothing. Is this the extent of brawls mental battle? Laughable....

Master knight, in what way exactly is LCing counter intuitive? You are just plain wrong about it being pointless. When it's a part of the game actual combos and speed are added. This is in no way a bad thing. Is it because it requires a time investment before it can be utilized? I think the positives out weigh the negatives by far.

 

[Kink-Link5]

To be fair, Arcana Heart has a similar mechanic regarding walltechs, where they grant invincibility to attacks, but are open to grabs; if you don't wall tech, you risk eating a followup combo, but are immune to grabs. These situations are simple 50/50 mixups, and are common throughout fighting games. Brawl's hitstun canceling isn't really delegated as such though, since it's not even a 1/3 read- you can do either action at any point in the stun, so the guessing game is a crapshoot to figure out both when and what they will do. Hense the low reward game off individual hits. Very low momentum resets the game back to neutral after each hit, unless of course that hit is a grab or lock in which case all those small indevidual hits over the past 2 and a half minutes are wiped clean with a single move.

Double Unless of course you're Metaknight and can just Uair to cover all the options since it has more priority and faster startup than any downward aerial and has lower endlag than air dodges do.

Brawl is a really schizophrenic game where a strong neutral game is offset by a low reward game and high longevity. Even for what it is, and even disregarding its changes from Smash's reward and movement game, the game is at it's core a lot like other low-reward fighters. Like, everyone is Dahlsim and SF4 Guile and Balrog, where it takes hard reads that don't lead to anything themselves. The biggest problem at the core is just the longevity of characters in contrast to the hard reads that go into individual hits. At a third or even half the long-livedness, Brawl could honestly stand to be called something of an appreciable game. Instead of needing 30 hard reads to finally get a kill, most games come down to about 4 to 8 at the largest, and are specifically designed as such, even if they don't have combos themselves- In which case, most compensate by having generally high damage output where the weakest moves deal 5/100 damage and the strongest do around 1/4th of a health bar. That intrinsic reward just isn't there with Brawl, and the game keeps putting itself back to neutral. Does this mean both players then have to always be attentive 100% of the time? Sure it does, but there's just a point where the undead return of the neutral game becomes a drag.

1.1-1.2 Damage Ratio for life.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Not much of an argument. Try again when you can counter the logic I use that doesn't change between genres.



Really? You're not proving that to be anything but made up. Even if it wasn't made up, it doesn't change the fact that, as is at least, L-Cancelling is still counterintuitive and pointless at best.



Hyrule Temple is banned for a reason. So is New Pork City, which would have been a better example, but whatever.

Besides, you're acting like a strawman.

Well no **** sherlock, it's not an argument, i'm stating fact. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Furthermore you're simply disapproving others statements without providing evidence as to why your opinions have any footing. L-canceling is far from counter-intuitive , irrelevant, unnecessary or any other word that holds enough syllables you use to make your argument seems as if it makes some sense; which it honestly doesn't.

Do yourself a favor and stop posting ridiculous notions you can't back up properly. And speak some freakin' english. What's this strawman bull****? Memes have no other function than to make you look desperate to prove a point, which isn't the point of this thread.

Provide information in your arguments, and address each post as a WHOLE. I capable of making my stand without attempting to derail my argument for out-of-context use, you should be fully capable of doing the same.

Edit: Excuse me for going off topic. Strawman isn't a meme, but regardless you shouldn't just make an accusation without proving a point.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll be honest, I don't think anyone against L-canceling has made anything resembling a sound or sensible argument for their case, while they have done a great job ignoring and dismissing counterarguments made against them.

I really want to see an argument against L-canceling that doesn't use the words "Arbitrary," "Skill barrier," any synonyms of them, or anything along the lines of "There's no reason not to do it." Because that's all I've seen from the anit- side of this discussion, and it's just getting cyclical at this point as each of those have been refuted individually, only to have the other ones used in the initial one's defense.

And then of course when everyone is bitter about it, the thread goes offtopic because that's the life of a thread.

I just want to have a bonafide conversation about the mechanic's pros and cons.

 

[-LzR-]

What else is there to say? You press L when landing with an aerial, cuts the lag in half. Simple as that. There cannot be really interesting discussions about it. The mechanic of reducing lag using skill is a pretty good mechanic, but it was done pretty badly in Melee as there is no punishment window or a reason to not do it so it's just another press of a button you will soon forget you are even doing.

 

[Master Knight DH]

What else is there to say? You press L when landing with an aerial, cuts the lag in half. Simple as that. There cannot be really interesting discussions about it. The mechanic of reducing lag using skill is a pretty good mechanic, but it was done pretty badly in Melee as there is no punishment window or a reason to not do it so it's just another press of a button you will soon forget you are even doing.

There we go. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Well, I could try: L-Cancelling provides a free advantage for somebody who is aware of it and is too willing to use it. The lack of weaknesses is especially a problem: it prevents somebody who doesn't use it, which is actually excusable even if you know about it, from figuring out how to counter it or simply using an equalizer to so much as contest it.


Also, phoenix guy, what you're arguing is not fact. I'm using logic that spans between genres. No saying that "comparing apples to oranges" junk.

 

[Vkrm]

If I could give a reason not to attempt a cancel, should I declare myself the winner of this discussion? If everything thing that distracts from the RPS is an arbitrary skill gap, both brawl and melee are inferior to actual rock paper scissors. I know I already said this earlier but no one really refuted me then. It's better then repeating arguments that have already been proven wrong, like all the guys who are against cancelling have been doing.

 

[Master Knight DH]

If I could give a reason not to attempt a cancel, should I declare myself the winner of this discussion?
Say what?

If everything thing that distracts from the RPS is an arbitrary skill gap, both brawl and melee are inferior to actual rock paper scissors.
Everything has radiation when you think about it. Let that sink in when asking why cancer is less frequent by that standard than you may think.

I know I already said this earlier but no one really refuted me then.
You were making a point?

It's better then repeating arguments that have already been proven wrong, like all the guys who are against cancelling have been doing.
Somebody missed my newest post, for one.

Deconstructed!

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hey let's play that game where we make posts impossible to respond to because they have internal messages inside another quote.

 

[Vkrm]

Well, I could try: L-Cancelling provides a free advantage for somebody who is aware of it and is too willing to use it. The lack of weaknesses is especially a problem: it prevents somebody who doesn't use it, which is actually excusable even if you know about it, from figuring out how to counter it or simply using an equalizer to so much as

So just because there are a few people who either don't know or don't care about l canceling it should be off limits to everybody? If you are aware of the advantages lcancel would provide, but choose not to implement it in your game you DESERVE to lose to they guy who cared enough to practice. It's the same as it was during melee's time in mlg, casuals demand to be on the same level but refuse to take the nessessary steps. They expect the game designers to make it even. With brawl, they didn't elevate the casuals, they limited the hard core and brought them down. Is that what's fair? I don't think so. It wasn't a bunch of glitches that separated the casual/hardcore. The competitive players had drive and a desire to be the best. They use whatever they can. An even playing field is not an achieveable goal in a fighting game. Making it so that a dude who just mashes buttons is a threat to serious competitor is not worthwhile goal in the first place.