Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[Vkrm]

@snake eyes, whats wrong with having to practice to perfect l canceling? And Why exactually do you consider l canceling to be redundant?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Practicing L-canceling is kinda hard for some people that can't even figure out where the shield button is
I mean come on its hard enough having to both move the stick and press the A button and the same time
Now they want us to press the ****ing shoulder buttons too?
This game is so ****ing inaccessible on a hardcore level its also hard on a casual level cause sometimes I can't remember which side is the top of the controller, much less press the shoulder buttons
God

Also, the convenient way people ignore the fact that L-canceling gives the defender, not the attacker, some additional options in high level play is getting pretty sad tbh. Free lag reduction makes all aerials safe anytime they would be WITH l-canceling, but without the chance of human error to **** it up. Which is kind of the point of competition, to compare who has less in the way of human error. Alternatively, there's removing the system completely, which just makes things unnecessarily dangerous on shield (and we've seen how that turns out) or revamping the system, which could work but also runs the risk of actually making the system TRULY inaccessible.

 

[Vkrm]

Now snake eyes, don't gimme that nonsense that air moves should cancel on hit or block. I want to be able to attempt an attack and cancel it if I whiff. That's really the only problem that I have personally with variable landing lag.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I rearranged and categorized your replies for a better flow of ideas.

Marvel seems to be doing fine with very few of them. Same goes for most 3D fighters, and many 2D fighters like Blazblue, Skullgirls and P4A have made 1 framers easier by adding a large buffer window.

You don't seem to be able to read very well. I said that auto-l-cancel was analogous to making every move chaincombo or autocancel. That your anime otaku games for virgin autists made 1-framers easier does not take away that these 1-framers still require execution that can be considered a superfluous skill boundary under your notions given that practically under no cases does one intend to MISS a combo. Purposely missing it would be analogous to just simply not pressing the button.

Some games have more links than others. While you may think that Marvel is primarily based on chain combos and special move cancels, many important combos and juggles are tight frame links. And that is more apparent with games that aren't a DBZ-esque 10 hit per second galore.

Games like:

-Street Fighter
-The King of Fighters
-Mortal Kombat
-Darkstalkers
-The weeaboo bull**** games you play
-Tekken
-Last Blade 2
-Smash
-Soul Calibur
-Dragonball Z: Budokai 3 (lol)
-etc.

all count with high-reward high-execution requirement combos in tight frame links or juggles. Although most of these games count with target combos or chain combos, performing such combos really is the equivalent of doing AAA combos in Smash, and the metagame has advanced more towards dependence on these tight execution commands for combos.

And that's not what anyone is asking for. Character-specific advanced techniques are great, universal advanced techniques that are a requirement to compete at the very lowest level of competitive play are not.

Most well-made fighting games also offer plenty of characters that do not rely on strict timing for those that don't want to spend time mastering difficult combos. In Smash, newcomers are pretty much forced to learn to L-cancel consistently to compete regardless of the character they pick.

Oh, you mean universal techniques like wavedashing, safejumps, parrying, plinking, buffering, jc grab, frame links, Brawl run-buffering, KoF Free-canceling, UMK3 l-canceling, MK9 dash canceling, option-select, kara-canceling, etc? (My list was longer, but I had to rewrite this.)

Honestly, without many of these advanced techniques, you're not going to make it very far anywhere in any of these games' respective competitive scenes. The only reason you see these as required is because the competitive scene has developed so much that the competitive metagame is heavily reliant on them.

And even then, your case about Melee requiring every character to l-cancel seems a little misled. You can reach considerable proficiency with some characters (some more than others) without even being able to l-cancel. I, for example, been beaten by the Brawl playing AZ's Darklink's Jigglypuff when he couldn't even l-cancel.

Newcomers are "forced" to learn a bunch of things before they can even compete-- universal advanced techniques included. You can't expect a newcomer to compete with anyone in the first place. When was the time you saw someone in tournament play MvC in Easy Mode and get past the first round?

Not saying that it is the case, but it seriously just sounds like the only fighting game you know how to play is Brawl, where every AT is a weird, character specific, esoteric glitch.

Most fighting games do just fine without mashable supers. As for Marvel, learning how to land setups that lead into big combos will almost always have a much more positive impact on your game than knowing how to consistently mash for full damage.

I did not say that mashable supers were the most important thing nor did I slightly suggest it, the point is that it is there for a reason and its inclusion conflicts with your notion of "there is no case where the other would be preferred".

And yeah, Marvel is very heavy on the incoming mix-up game. And guess what, in order to do them, you need to be able to wave-dash, which can easily be considered an arbitrary skill boundary too.

After all, why not just make it so that wave-dashing auto-cancels?

Why not make it so that characters auto-block or auto-parry when they're not in the middle of a move? Do you remember when SFxT tried including an auto-techgrab and an auto-block gem? Even at the cost of meter, how disgusted was the FGC?

Why not make it so that hold charge moves don't require charging for 2 seconds and instead just come out like a regular move or with the tap of a single button? Remember Super Street Fighter IV DS? How ridiculous is it that Guile can just do constant Sonic Booms while walking forward or that Vega can just Ultra 1 anything that twitches?

Why? Because execution requirement is a valuable thing. Just like with l-canceling, although there may not be a time where you wanted to get hit outside of a move, tech a throw outside of a move, or hold a charge, there are times where your OPPONENT wants you to miss a block, miss a tech throw, lose a charge, or miss an l-cancel.

Furthermore, tech-skill requirement is a form of balance. If we make every wave-dash auto-cancellable, every linking move a chain cancellable, every jump-in a safejump, etc, then there's nothing preventing people just picking the top tier character to win like an even dumber Brawl. The game loses very considerable balance and depth.

I've played more than enough competitive fighters at mid-to-high level to spot a redundant mechanic when I see one.

Then it seems that it's your intellectual faculties that are in question then.

Why not make players enter the Konami Code to prevent an automatic shield break KO after every three successive attacks to give them an opportunity to show off and feel rewarded for their tech skill? If you wanna throw around strawman arguments, we can do this all day

Please don't use logic terms you don't understand, especially when I'm a scholar in the subject. I believe the term you're looking for is "argument from analogy", which is not a fallacy. An argument from analogy compares two things that share a specific set of similar or identical relevant properties to illustrate a point.

And yeah, why not do that? Do you think you're making a point? lol

You're using an unspecified imaginary scenario for an analogy. I don't quite know how your hypothetical game plays, so I don't know what the implied negative consequences of such a mechanic would be.

I do want to add though that advanced techniques like l-canceling, wavedashing, plinking, etc are just forms of micromanagement for the metagame general. They are simple commands that act collectively.

Large commands like SC2 Ivy's command throws or Zangief's supers pertain to a different category, but they do have a place and they're especially fun to buffer.

True. But the best fighting games have core mechanics are relatively easy to pick up for anyone. Universal advanced techniques should be always be accessible.

Oh really? What are these "best fighting games"? I've had people tell me that they can't get into Street Fighter or KoF because it is too hard, and last time I checked, those games are regarded as two of the best in the genre.

Anyone can just pick-up Melee or Mortal Kombat and play. Anyone can pick up those games. Do you know how many people I know have considered Melee and Mortal Kombat some of their favorite games despite being completely unaware of their competitive play? Again, you can't expect any newcomer for any game to have a fighting chance against a competitive player without proper practice and learning first, unless you introduce sufficient random variables.

This autistic dream of Brawl players thinking "in a game void of tech skill, my true genius will shine" is just unrealistic.

Moreover, it's just ludicrous that you said universal advanced techniques should be easily accessible as if a newcomer could just perform them off the bat. They're called ADVANCED TECHNIQUES for a reason.

So the dev team's poorly thought-out, half-***** attempt at removing L-canceling (among many other half-***** "improvements" in Brawl) means that any other attempt to do so, no matter how carefully balanced, will always result in failure?

Not necessarily, but I don't see why you need to fix something that is not broken. L-canceling as it is present in Melee is like a holy grail in advanced techniques even if it's under-appreciated by lowly brawl scene. Besides, the dev's team "fix" sounds miles more intelligent than your proposed fixes.

Besides, as someone who's apparently an expert on Smash and competitive fighters in general, you should know that there's a plethora of other gameplay elements that contribute to Brawl's terrible pacing more than the lack of L-canceling.

True, but as anyone that played Melee before Brawl could tell you, the inclusion of l-canceling in Brawl would have proved a very significant improvement in the pacing of Brawl, particularly for shield pressure purposes.

Please re-read the thread and clearly elaborate on how well balanced aerials with low landing lag and a slightly tweaked shield would make for a worse game.

As anyone that has played Melee before can tell you, increasing attack lag on blocked aerials would just kill the shield pressure game. It's the equivalent of getting rid of blockstrings or frametraps in other fighting games.

You're also getting of a significant part of potential aerial landing whiff punishes.

 

[Vkrm]

Well that's the end of this thread.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I'd rather the game reward players for mastering weaknesses, not hiding from them.

 

[Vkrm]

Games reward skill.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well, I think I'm done with this thread too. Extreme hostility from any side of an argument makes things super awkward.

I'm off to play "weeaboo bull****" apparently, then going to play some Melee to work on my IC vs Samus matchup.

Also going to go be an autistic ******** animu f*****.

 

[kellyk1035]

all for LLLLL -cancelling its so much funner

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

...............

Well, I think I'm done with this thread too. Extreme hostility from any side of an argument makes things super awkward.

I'm off to play "weeaboo bull****" apparently, then going to play some Melee to work on my IC vs Samus matchup.

Also going to go be an autistic ******** animu f*****.

eww

 

[Master Knight DH]

Games reward skill.

So uncounterable kiting is perfectly legit.

Oh wait.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRo9sJBbcE
Uncounterable kiting means that whoever wins only one skirmish wins, in addition to having an easier time winning that same bloody skirmish.

And I'm pretty sure everybody is familiar with the kiting done on Hyrule Temple. I'm bringing up something more fresh: Kuju Entertainment thought that the biggest culprit of being able to kite in BW2 having as much power as it does was a bright idea. It results in the equalizer against it, under the player's direct control and consequently getting power boosts meant to keep human speed issues from getting out of hand rather than consider that they'd be Squishy Wizards compared to AI, getting killed by the thing it is supposed to counter while failing to destroy it. TWICE. Yeah, I see no problem.

Not to mention that kiting is passive behavior. I don't know what game developers were thinking, but clearly they failed to keep the kids' own best interests in mind by failing to keep passive behavior in check. Let me tell you: it's not fun, and it's not balanced.

And yeah, I know, defensive power being too strong can easily result in even more shallow gameplay than if speed is overfavored, but it's a worthwhile risk due to it actually allowing for free aggressive behavior for characters who desperately need it without bolstering the bloody versatile speedsters.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

L-cancelling was removed from brawl for a reason and won't be coming back in future installments, I'd bet my life on it. There's technical depth to be found elsewhere that requires the player to make an actual decision on whether or not to apply their technical knowledge. Muscle memory is not depth.

 

[Master Knight DH]

There's technical depth to be found elsewhere that requires the player to make an actual decision on whether or not to apply their technical knowledge. Muscle memory is not depth.

This.

No, really. Even if L-Cancelling came back, it would have to be given weaknesses, so that it can't be used with too little condition.

 

[Jockmaster]

Wait, what is wrong with a small technical barrier between casual and competitive players?

It took me two months to learn how to consistently wavedash and l cancel...and those are arguably the only ATs you need to jump in to the melee competitive scene.

For the guys who want automatic l canceling: why not just make everything in the game automatic? By your argument, the game would be best with as little "unnecessary" manual input as possible.

I propose an idea for ssb4: basically, you only use one control stick and a bumper button. You move your stick towards your opponent and your character automatically uses the best attack. You shield with the bumper, and shield grabs are done automatically in a frame perfect manner.

This game would essentially have no unnecessary manual input, how bout it?

 

[Master Knight DH]

No, we want manual input. I certainly do or I wouldn't nay C-Sticking as much as I do, considering how automatic it may as well be.

What we don't want is something that just gives faster players a free, no-brainer advantage.

 

[Vkrm]

It isn't free. It takes practice and knowledge of characters fall speed.

Supermodel, what exactly was the reason for the removal of cancel?

If you guys think anything that distracts from mental encounters is a bad mechanic, why don't all of you play competitive rock paper scissors...... And main rock.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Strawmans. Strawmans everywhere!!

 

[-LzR-]

It's like he explained. Lcanceling has nothing to do with skill. It's pure automatic muscle memory. There is no reason to do it so you automatically do it every time you land with something. After playing for a while everyone can do it pretty 100% of the time so it's basically the same even if the technique didn't exist in the first place. It just annoys the player for having to press an extra button every time he lands even though it gives him basically no advantage since it's easy enough for everyone to do it anyways.

 

[Vkrm]

How was that a strawman? I get the feel you're dodging the question.

 

[Master Knight DH]

It's like he explained. Lcanceling has nothing to do with skill. It's pure automatic muscle memory. There is no reason to do it so you automatically do it every time you land with something. After playing for a while everyone can do it pretty 100% of the time so it's basically the same even if the technique didn't exist in the first place. It just annoys the player for having to press an extra button every time he lands even though it gives him basically no advantage since it's easy enough for everyone to do it anyways.

There we go. Exactly why snaking in Mario Kart DS gets on people's nerves too: you either do it, or just lose through no legit fault of your own. No. Just no.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How was that a strawman? I get the feel you're dodging the question.

If you don't understand how your rock paper scissors analogy was a strawman than you have no place in a debate. At all.

As a matter of fact, many of your posts have included either direct insults or jabs at your opposition's skill level. Maybe you should re-evaluate your approach to this discussion. :\

"LOLLOL ur just bad go play hello kitty island adventure" is not a cogent point.

 

[Vkrm]

If snaking is all it takes to win games in mk, learn to snake. Then you would see there's alot more to it then that. It's really funny that people are STILL ignoring the strategy L cancel gives the opponent options on block.

 

[-LzR-]

Lcanceling gives absolutely no goddamn options to anyone. All it does it take them away if you don't do it. And because everyone does it nothing happens. Simple as that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

L-cancelling was removed from brawl for a reason and won't be coming back in future installments, I'd bet my life on it. There's technical depth to be found elsewhere that requires the player to make an actual decision on whether or not to apply their technical knowledge. Muscle memory is not depth.

Ok, then where is it? Instead of wasting your time linking stupid memes as if they are the end-to-all arguments, you should attempt to contribute to the conversation. Then again I can't take you seriously anyway; meme's are the primary means of social deconstruction and essentially just allow people to talk or say things for absolutely no reason.

I see no reason why L-canceling cant return or why it apparently is destructive to smash considering that it's use is merely an option. What's wrong with having options?

So uncounterable kiting is perfectly legit.

Oh wait.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRo9sJBbcE
Uncounterable kiting means that whoever wins only one skirmish wins, in addition to having an easier time winning that same bloody skirmish.

And I'm pretty sure everybody is familiar with the kiting done on Hyrule Temple. I'm bringing up something more fresh: Kuju Entertainment thought that the biggest culprit of being able to kite in BW2 having as much power as it does was a bright idea. It results in the equalizer against it, under the player's direct control and consequently getting power boosts meant to keep human speed issues from getting out of hand rather than consider that they'd be Squishy Wizards compared to AI, getting killed by the thing it is supposed to counter while failing to destroy it. TWICE. Yeah, I see no problem.

Not to mention that kiting is passive behavior. I don't know what game developers were thinking, but clearly they failed to keep the kids' own best interests in mind by failing to keep passive behavior in check. Let me tell you: it's not fun, and it's not balanced.

And yeah, I know, defensive power being too strong can easily result in even more shallow gameplay than if speed is overfavored, but it's a worthwhile risk due to it actually allowing for free aggressive behavior for characters who desperately need it without bolstering the bloody versatile speedsters.

What the **** is this? We're talking about fighting games. Not some RTS.

And to those of you who are saying L canceling is bad and gives you no options, you're either seriously dumb, blind, or your cognitive reasoning is completely ****ed up.

Brawl ****ing sucks. For Christ sake, the physics engine is garbage. The games characters inertia is completely backwards. If Sonic runs and jumps he should at least be able to travel across the damn stage.

You nay sayers are really full of yourselves, believing that simply because Brawl went in a terrible direction you assume the next smash will. The Wii's target demographic in general was ****ed up, so as a result the games devolved in the same manner. Smash 4 on the other hand is being made by Namco Bandai; the company that invented wavedashing and is extremely knowledgeable in fighting game engines.

I just hope that out of spite the game becomes so advanced, not for the sake of having an enjoyable game, just so that you complacent, uncoordinated, know-it-alls would fall on deaf ears.

You know what, I don't even know why i'm wasting my time talking about this, scythe pretty much just summed up everything that needed to be said anyway.

8 wavedashes for Smash 4.

 

[Vkrm]

Lcanceling gives absolutely no goddamn options to anyone. All it does it take them away if you don't do it. And because everyone does it nothing happens. Simple as that.

This is just flat out untrue. You can make someone miss their cancel. It's makes the rushdown in ssbm more than just a series of rehearsed button presses. I don't feel bad for people who don't want to put the time in, complain that they suck, and then blame the game.

If a reason to not lcancel is what would legitimize it to you guys I could give one. I just don't feel depth is limited to only what contributes to R/P/S gameplay. That mentality is what brawl players use to see depth in a game that has none. I know I sound harsh, and for that I apologize.

 

[-LzR-]

Damn it's hard to argue with Melee players when their argument is on such level as "Melee is good because Melee is Melee and Melee is good, therefore Melee is good"
"Brawl is crap because it's Brawl and Brawl is crap, therefore Brawl is crap"

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl is boring, slow, and the characters are limited. You talked earlier about how melee punishes people who don't want to learn to cancel. Its not as brawl since that game punishes anyone who wants to play rushdown. Skill takes the back seat to patience. At least their are a bunch of diverse paths to victory in melee. Keep away, rushdown, run and gun with spacies. The gimp game and such.

That sir, is why brawl sucks.

 

[Big-Cat]

Wait, what is wrong with a small technical barrier between casual and competitive players?

It depends on the barrier exactly. Let me provide a few good examples of execution barriers that are positive because of what they provide:

Motion based inputs like qcfs and sonic boom inputs are there because they provide the option of the character to have several different kinds of special moves or have as little as possible. Ibuki from Street Fighter is able to have eight specials while Guile has been able to have his signature two. If you were to simplify this, you might force something where the characters can only have a specific amount of specials like Smash restricting every character to four specials.

Things like links (juggled based or ground based) also make sense for balancing reasons. If you increase the window for linking, you may allow there to be a link into a really deadly combo when the hit confirms may have been incredibly safe - low risk, high reward.

Stances and feint cancels are additional examples of technical barriers that are needed AND they provide depth once you control them. C. Viper is notorious for her feint cancels in SF4 for a variety of reasons. She can hit someone with cr.MK and cancel to go into a mixup of something like her overhead, a throw, or another low. Alternatively, if she lands a cr.HP, she can do cr.HP xx HP Thunder Knuckle Feint, cr.HP xx EX Seismo, Burning Kick/Ultra for a LOT of damage (by SF4 standards). Had the above been automatic, Viper would lose options on hitting with cr.HP like what would she do had her first cr.HP been blocked.

However, just because you have technical barriers doesn't mean they shouldn't try to simplify some inputs when applicable. Viper does her feint cancels by pressing PP, but this could have been simplified a bit to where you hold the P you pressed instead of releasing automatically. Likewise, some games simplified the 360 grab input to either f,hcf King's Giant Swing) or HCB,F (Potemkin's Potemkin Buster, but I might be wrong on the input) while some games like Skullgirls put in specific instructions in the game where an attempted 360 would not cause the character to jump.

With the case of L-Canceling, it's kind of like making an input harder than it needs to be. It would be like making every of Viper's feint cancels requiring an pretzel motion+P.

Damn it's hard to argue with Melee players when their argument is on such level as "Melee is good because Melee is Melee and Melee is good, therefore Melee is good"
"Brawl is crap because it's Brawl and Brawl is crap, therefore Brawl is crap"

Oh God, this.

 

[JMan8891]

Is this really derailing to a "Brawl sucks, Melee is great" "Nuh-uh" discussion?

L cancels: not hard as far as ATs go. Its consistent timing, and obersavation/awareness of your character/stage. It speeds up Melee's gameplay, which I love. I think a mechanic of SOME sort could stand to be implemented in the next Smash entry

 

[Jockmaster]

To the guy saying "melee players say melee is better because it's melee etc etc"...No. Melee is simply a more exciting and polished game than Brawl. Melee is a steel roller coaster compared to Brawls flying dumbo ride. It is faster and harder to handle, but MUCH more rewarding and exhilarating.

Chances are you never TRIED to learn melee ATs. I actually respect the opinion of those brawl players who know how to actually play melee but prefer brawl; what really grinds my gears are the chumps who started playing smash with brawl and never bothered to learn basic melee skills.

Basically, dont bash l canceling because you are bitter that people took the time to learn it. This thread just sounds like a bunch of scrubs going "i dont know how to l cancel it's too hard it's unnecessary!!" and you lose credibility in your argument. It's funny how it seems like most people who know how to l cancel are fine with it but most who can't are the most vocal about how it shouldn't be included.

There are a few guys against l canceling in this thread who are very logical about it and come off as credible (you know who you are) and I'm grateful for that

 

[Jockmaster]

No, we want manual input. I certainly do or I wouldn't nay C-Sticking as much as I do, considering how automatic it may as well be.

What we don't want is something that just gives faster players a free, no-brainer advantage.

L canceling isn't predisposed to "faster" players...I'm a pretty slow player and I do it just fine (i use ganon).

It's simply a matter of knowing when to do it and remembering to do it

 

[DrinkingFood]

Tripping
8 frame shield drop
Extremely sturdy shields
Extremely low gravity
Forgiving recovery with auto ledge snapping
No below-tumble DI
Bad knockdown mechanics resulting in spammable jab/laser/etc locks
Laggy aerials
Non-dynamics air dodges
Worse balance
High shield pushback and low character traction
Hitstun canceling
A chain grab and camping centric metagame
Limited options out of dash and various other mechanics making movement slow

There are more. I could go on to explain why those are bad, but im not going to bother. That's why brawl sucks. Melee treats these same aspects much better.

Now let's move on...

 

[Twinkles]

As a person who plays Melee, I can say that I like L-Canceling, but I don't think it's a great mechanic, I do feel it would be easier to just reduce the lag on many moves to reduce the necessity of an extra input. It's an advanced technique that alienates noobs and while I do believe that there should be a divide between noobs and the pros, I don't think it should be by a single button press that reduces lag.

Yes, different timings on shield, off shield, and everywhere in between alters the timing slightly for L-canceling, but getting anywhere above a certain level in Melee, I would think this has little effect. The window for L-canceling is not that small, just very minute adjustments solves most of the issue with it, and it mostly becomes about positioning the fast fall.

Although L-canceling in Melee is kind of a balancing mechanism, considering that without it, space animal shield pressure would be ridculously easier and therefore a much more dominating tactic.

That said, I don't think L-canceling should make a return in smash 4 and I don't think it will make a return at all.

Also, I know near nothing about Brawl, so telling me that Brawl is a worse game than Melee to me in my face doesn't really mean **** to me.

 

[-LzR-]

To the guy saying "melee players say melee is better because it's melee etc etc"...No. Melee is simply a more exciting and polished game than Brawl. Melee is a steel roller coaster compared to Brawls flying dumbo ride. It is faster and harder to handle, but MUCH more rewarding and exhilarating.

Chances are you never TRIED to learn melee ATs. I actually respect the opinion of those brawl players who know how to actually play melee but prefer brawl; what really grinds my gears are the chumps who started playing smash with brawl and never bothered to learn basic melee skills.

Basically, dont bash l canceling because you are bitter that people took the time to learn it. This thread just sounds like a bunch of scrubs going "i dont know how to l cancel it's too hard it's unnecessary!!" and you lose credibility in your argument. It's funny how it seems like most people who know how to l cancel are fine with it but most who can't are the most vocal about how it shouldn't be included.

There are a few guys against l canceling in this thread who are very logical about it and come off as credible (you know who you are) and I'm grateful for that

Subjective, subjective, SUBJECTIVE.

You guys do realize I am neutral when it comes to Melee vs Brawl? I play both games at a tournament level and I consider them equal. Why do you have to throw in an ad hominem like saying we think Lcancel is bad because you can't do it? We could as well say Brawl is just too hard for you so that's why you hate. It gets us nowhere.
What would make a much, much better system would be like Lcancel, except if your move hits a shield, you need to input it with R, if it hits a character, you need to input it with L. If it whiffs, you lost the ability to Lcancel at all.
Now this would mean you cannot blindly throw aerials as they will lag, like in many fighters normals cannot be canceled into other normals on whiff. And it would also make you have to think what button to press. It would require more skill and such. Requiring a simple L button makes it too automatic and it doesn't add anything to the game.

Tripping
I agree, tripping is ********
8 frame shield drop
It's actually 7, but isn't it the same for Melee as well?
Extremely sturdy shields
Same as in Melee except there aren't glicthed shields like GWs
Extremely low gravity
This is entirely subjective, we could argue Melees higher gravity makes it bad
Forgiving recovery with auto ledge snapping
I like autosnapping ledges as it forces you to actually, you know, go offstage to edgeguard instead of just fsmashing the ledge. Though sweetspotting requires skill, it makes recovery extremely predictable and limited for most characters.
No below-tumble DI
No opinion
Bad knockdown mechanics resulting in spammable jab/laser/etc locks
No opinion here either
Laggy aerials
False. It's only a different mechanic. Of course aerials lag if you do them wrong. In Brawl autocanceling is extremely important to make for lagless aerials. You can't just knee at someones shield. Either way, most aerials are safe on shield anyways when well spaced so what's the problem?
Non-dynamics air dodges
100% subjective. Melees airdodge feels rather crappy with the exception of making wavedashes possible
Worse balance
Hey, Brawl is the game with more than 5 viable characters
High shield pushback and low character traction
You say Brawl is incredibly defensive and stuff but isn't this stuff supposed to contradict it? I haven't even noticed the traction myself.
Hitstun canceling
While I think Melee has a better comboing system, hitstun canceling is awesome and takes skill because it gives the opponent options on hit, best regards, Vkrm
A chain grab and camping centric metagame
Is that why everyone has some kind of a chaingrab in Melee, but in Brawl is mostly limited to a few chaingrabber characters? For the camping part try to play Puff against anyone.
Limited options out of dash and various other mechanics making movement slow
I agree

I bolded my own stuff because I'm awesome like that. Not that you care.

 

[Ghostbone]

For those saying that L-cancelling adds mindgames in melee, you realise there's no punishment window (like with teching/ukemi where you can't tech again for 40 frames or something), you can just spam L/R/Z (the easiest) and always pull of the L-cancel.
I mean the most legitimate argument is that L-cancelling causes you to pull off accidental (and sometimes hilariously amazing) techs xD, or also cause you to not be able to tech.
That's kinda weak though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No way are shield drops 7 frames in Melee lmao.

For those saying that L-cancelling adds mindgames in melee, you realise there's no punishment window (like with teching/ukemi where you can't tech again for 40 frames or something), you can just spam L/R/Z (the easiest) and always pull of the L-cancel.
I mean the most legitimate argument is that L-cancelling causes you to pull off accidental (and sometimes hilariously amazing) techs xD, or also cause you to not be able to tech.
That's kinda weak though.

I sort of explicitly stated this and I'm the only one making the argument besides Food.

Regardless, missed L-Cancels and overshot L-cancels (Shielding) still happen in Melee at the highest level.

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

Lol at lzr's response. Esp magnet ledges part. The only good thing about magnet ledges is basically every character has an offstage game. Standing onstage and hitting fsmash doesn't work very well against competent opponents who can sweet spot the edge.

L-canceling was a good idea and I like how it affects gameplay but it was implemented poorly.

IMO something like auto l cancel upon hit would be great.

If you score a hit its one less button to press. Woooo....
If you hit a shield or whiff, you'll still be punished if you don't Lcancel.

Seems like a good middle ground. Brawl players don't wine about pressing too many buttons and all the timings still apply. I don't over think hitting a shield or whiffing I just figure ill land at a different timing and ill get smacked around if I did something stupid/got out predicted.

 

[Vkrm]

What does brawl have that makes it a good game? Why do you guys play it over melee? I am dying to know. At the end of the day, no can really say why L canceling hurts the game. It might be possible to think up an alternative that suits us better. I'm not really sure. I am sure however that the way brawl handles landing is really dumb. Way worse than melee for certain.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'll respond in more detail when I have access to a computer and can highlight that, LZR. For now I'm on my tablet, but I'll clarify some things.
Melee has a 15 frame shield drop, universal.
Brawl only has more than five viable characters (and hardly) because of its enormous cast. It has about the same number of viable and viable-ish characters as melee, but the percentage is far lower considering it has like 40% or so more characters?
And chain grabs only work well in Melee if you're chain grabbing space animals/CF, or if you're shiek and are throwing any non-FFer/non-floaty. Sheik's chain grabs are pretty stupid, but not as stupid as some of the brawl characters CGs.

 

[MikeKirby]

Inb4meleevsbrawldiscuzzam

You want mindgames? I'd vouch for the return of viable dash dancing over L-canceling anyday. All that L-canceling does is make follow-ups flowing into each other a lot easier. How does L-canceling or removal of it add to mindgames? Shielding or not, it just adds different timing of executing it. I've watched high level smash64 and Melee games an what I found so entertaining was the fact of the actions and thought process one took to get things to work. Not once did I go, "wow, look at that L-canceling!"

Also, I'd rather push for the change of hitstun to allow a more combo happier gameplay. The one thing that Brawl did was give the option to air-dodge 10 frames (I think?) sooner than an attack or jump. This forced people to think more and play more of a defensive bait & punish game. Everyone can go and create muscle memory of excecuting guaranteed combos but in Brawl it takes a more of a thought process to make such things happen and some people hate it for that. Although, in general, I'd like to see more hitstun implementation prioritized over L-canceling.

The one harder thing to do in Brawl is teching. There is a smaller frame window in performing a tech. I see very few players do it in match constantly to save their stocks from a stage spike. I'd like it if it returned back to it's Melee days.

I'd also like to see a change in ledge mechanics. Invincibility frames brawl gives you were heavily abused via planking. Something has to changed about that. I don't know how but I'd rather they do something about that over adding L-canceling.

There's a lot of places you can add skill to this game. L-canceling just adds an extra nuisance to do. Not to mention the amount wear and tear that L-canceling creates on controllers. I can't tell you how many controllers I went through because the shoulder buttons ended up losing their click or becoming very worn out.

If we look at other fighting games (at least the ones I played), you don't see them adding an extranious button to reduce your landing lag after an aerial attack. It's just given to you. Why should smash be so different?

Now question:
What do you hardcore Melee players think about project M? It has L-canceling so, given your criteria, I figure it must be good, right?