Legalize Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

[SaveMeJebus]

Time for some hard data.

Dead/blast zones(Camera boundaries are meaningless for my argument)

                             Left   Top    Right Bottom
[COLOR="Red"]Mushroomy Kingdom            -140  130     140    -55[/COLOR]
[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]Final Destination            -240  190     240    -115[/COLOR]
Battlefield                  -230  180     230    -115
Pokemon Stadium              -230  180     230    -115
Yoshi's Island               -220  180     220    -125

For a stage that's "huge", it's blast zones sure are constricting.

You can't compare a stage like Mushroomy Kingdom to one of those stages because Mushroomy kingdom is basically all stage.

 

[Captain L]

the fact that it's "all stage" makes it even worse actually. A horizontal kill move at the center of FD that kills at around 150% might kill at 100% at the center of mushroomy. A horizontal kill move at the edge of FD that kills at 100% will kill at 0% at the edge of mushroomy. The top blastzone is also closer than any other stage, you can't argue that.

Walkoffs alone are bad enough, the small boundaries make it much worse.

 

[Life]

Time for some hard data.

Dead/blast zones(Camera boundaries are meaningless for my argument)

                             Left   Top    Right Bottom
[COLOR="Red"]Mushroomy Kingdom            -140  130     140    -55[/COLOR]
[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]Final Destination            -240  190     240    -115[/COLOR]
Battlefield                  -230  180     230    -115
Pokemon Stadium              -230  180     230    -115
Yoshi's Island               -220  180     220    -125

For a stage that's "huge", its blast zones sure are constricting.

Offtopic, but if you're going to edit for "grammar", do it correctly. (I don't normally play the grammar card, but you edited and missed this one)

Ontopic, I will say that small blast zones alone are more counterpick quality than ban justification, but in this case they're incredibly extreme and combined with everything else makes the stage worse.

 

[Arcansi]

Actually it can be if it's problematic enough like Fox on YIipes in Melee.

All it takes is one drop of poison in the lake for the whole lake to be poisoned.

I don't like the fact that the stage has the lowest ceiling in the game, but that's not the main issue.

Even if D3 can't stand infinite foes, he can wall infinite 2/3's of the roster on the pipes and blocks until the scrolling gets close enough for him to Bthrow his foe for a quick death.

I honestly see MK being able to abuse the stage worse somehow.

Still, It feels kinda late to argue for the stage's legality don't you think?

Sup, Eternal, look at RC, look at your point, now back at RC, now back at your point. Sadly, it isn't good, but if you actually did some research before you posted it could be good.

 

[F A N G]

Offtopic, but if you're going to edit for "grammar", do it correctly. (I don't normally play the grammar card, but you edited and missed this one)

He used it correctly though.

 

[Life]

Hiding since it's offtopic

Spoiler

it's = contraction
its = possessive pronoun

He used "it's" and I fixed it in the quote

On topic, D3 being good here is not the reason it's banned. Walkoffs and walls (which give very powerful or at least very chancy strategies to pretty much every character) are.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Hiding since it's offtopic

Spoiler

it's = contraction
its = possessive pronoun

He used "it's" and I fixed it in the quote

On topic, D3 being good here is not the reason it's banned. Walkoffs and walls (which give very powerful or at least very chancy strategies to pretty much every character) are.

Players can't walk off camp since the stage moves.

 

[F A N G]

[COLLAPSE="@Incom"]Didn't actually see his original post, thought you bolded the mistake. Ahh why do I decide to post to tell someone they're wrong without checking[/COLLAPSE]

Like Eternal Yoshi said, no ledges and constant walkoff/walls should make it different enough (like Mario Bros.) to warrant a ban

 

[Life]

Players can't walk off camp since the stage moves.

Not referring to camping.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not referring to camping.

Then what are you referring to?

 

[Life]

Pretty much anything. It's stupid easy to get kills here no matter where you get grabbed, unless you mash out very, very quickly. You don't have to camp to get grabs you know. Yeah, don't get grabbed is in effect, but it's not just grabs, anything will kill you unless you're close to the center or you have something to tech on.

 

[Akaku94]

it removes competetive depth by reducing the optimal strategy to simply hitting/throwing towards blastzones without regard for damage or knockback. no need to damage or recover, because the only thing required for a KO is to grab and throw left or to get to the right of the opponent and hit with a moderately strong move.

 

[ぱみゅ]

it removes competetive depth by reducing the optimal strategy to simply hitting/throwing towards blastzones.

You may want to reword that.
IMO, "hitting opponents towards the blastzone" (or "making them hit the blastzone") is pretty much the goal of the game....

 

[Akaku94]

fixed, maybe... Not sure the best way to reword it, but tacking "without regard for damage or knockback" seems like a good start...

 

[| Big D |]

Donkey Kong's Fthrow, that is all.

Edit: Grab releases?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Donkey Kong's Fthrow, that is all.

Edit: Grab releases?

Hold down as he is trying to walk towards the blast zone. that is all

 

[Luigisama]

Thinking in a competitive way.
(someone picks D3)
P1 is one of the characters that can get chain grabbed and p2 is D3.
In the event p1 is a beginner he'll probably get caught in D3 cg and he'll probably DI wrong and die quickly since the stage blast zones are small.

In the event p1 is a smart player he'll avoid standing near p2 near any walls in the stage. P1 will try to avoid approaching p2 since he can power shield and grab. If p1 plays right and punishes p2's attempts to approach, avoids waddle dees, avoids getting grabbed, and keeps moving with the stage. P1 should win. Depending on the position p1 will show the following
1. p1 is on the left side, is winning, and is playing it safe by avoiding D3
2. p1 is on the left side and is losing
3. p1 is on the right side and is winning because he's a better player than p2 or is out playing p2.

If I had to play in this situation I would either get D3 to a high percentage or take a stock Then go for a timeout.if D3 approaches I'll try my best to play defensive, powershield and bthow or another option.

(Now if D3 wasn't picked)
Doesn't matter who p1 or p2 picks unless one of them is a bad player the bad player will lose. If they're are both experienced players they'll play it safe and try to abuse the moving stage to score early kills.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"You can't walkoff camp because it moves"?

Walk forwards.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Apparently nobody realizes how easy it is to time D3 out here.

Then again if this is legal everyone will derp and ban it against me.

 

[crush]

shroomy kingdom does NOT need to be legal...............................

 

[SaveMeJebus]

"You can't walkoff camp because it moves"?

Walk forwards.

then you are no longer camping. You can no longer say in shield as your opponent approaches.

 

[Luigisama]

Another thing to note if anyone plays on this stage. You better be a tech master and DI right otherwise you'll lose.

 

[Kantrip]

then you are no longer camping. You can no longer say in shield as your opponent approaches.

Do you instinctively hold and stay in shield when your enemy moves towards you when you camp? lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Do you instinctively hold and stay in shield when your enemy moves towards you when you camp? lol

No, but that is always what people bring up when arguing against stages with walk offs

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

OR you could still press shield them walk OoS.

 

[MechaWave]

Then you would put yourself close to the already super low ceiling, making it very dangeous. Do it wrong with over 50% and you may end up giving him a free KO on you.

This doesn't mean they have to stay there forever. They can lead Dedede to approach while they could hit him freely. Of course, Dedede could shark. Moving to the ground isn't out of the question if Dedede isn't around places where he can infinite or if he's on the brick blocks. It would also be logical just to try to avoid Dedede if their percentage is enough for a KO from Dedede.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

OR you could still press shield them walk OoS.

You can't do that for ever since pipes and pits will force you to jump

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How about when they don't?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You can't shield and walk forever. your shield will break. There is also nothing stopping your opponent from running towards you and throwing you into the blast zone

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not if I only shield when approached.

Grab does not beat walloff, good option but it's not a guaranteed way to stop it.

 

[Kuro~]

Time for some hard data.

Dead/blast zones(Camera boundaries are meaningless for my argument)

                             Left   Top    Right Bottom
[COLOR="Red"]Mushroomy Kingdom            -140  130     140    -55[/COLOR]
[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]Final Destination            -240  190     240    -115[/COLOR]
Battlefield                  -230  180     230    -115
Pokemon Stadium              -230  180     230    -115
Yoshi's Island               -220  180     220    -125

For a stage that's "huge", it's blast zones sure are constricting.

Um pardon me but where'd you get this data? Is there a list for all stages? If so can you please tell me where...*wants thaaaaat list O.O*

 

[1048576]

Wait D3 can standing infinite Mario, Samus, and Luigi? I thought he needed a pummel for that or else his throw would stale, which lets them break out until like 100% if they're prepared for it.

 

[Big Moose]

Legalize temple.

 

[MechaWave]

Um pardon me but where'd you get this data? Is there a list for all stages? If so can you please tell me where...*wants thaaaaat list O.O*

He most likely got the information himself, seeing how EY is a developer.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not if I only shield when approached.

Grab does not beat walloff, good option but it's not a guaranteed way to stop it.

He can't walk off forever on this stage and he has to walk which becomes predictable and punishable.

 

[theunabletable]

"You can't walkoff camp because it moves"?

Walk forwards.

that sounds hella depthy

A stage where you have to move to keep your stage control, so your opponent knows that you have to commit to moving.

Walkoff camping on the left would be more risky than it's worth, because you're far more limited in your options. Walkoff camping on the right wouldn't be so bad, but it'd be mentally committing because your opponent knows you have to commit no matter what to keep your advantage, so your opponent can work from the knowledge of knowing that you're gonna commit, which limits your options in itself. Being in the middle instead of on the outside has its advantages, in that you're free in where you want to be, you're not limited to staying in a spot to have positional control, and that spot in itself gives a disadvantage in that you have to commit to something.

The mindgames sound so deep, and that's just analyzing stage control. Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 for depthiest stage, this stage is BETTER than RC

well next to PS2

Grab does not beat walloff, good option but it's not a guaranteed way to stop it.

Wait so THESE are the arguments from people saying that Jebus' arguments are ****ty?

So maybe you phrased that badly, or I misunderstood, but if I do understand correctly, the implications from what you're saying would be that: the tactic isn't fair, and it makes the stage banworthy, because there's no guaranteed way to stop it?

Walkoff camping isn't an issue in the same vein it's not an issue on Mario Bros (although I suppose to a lesser extent). Hell it's more of an OPTION, not an overcentralyzing issue.

Under-opponent-camping is more of an issue on RC, because sharking your opponent the whole time is FAR better than the alternatives. Sharking IS an overcentralizing strategy because there's frankly no reason not to. Walk-off camping on Mushroomy Kingdom isn't the same, it's an option that has a completely different risk:reward ratio, in which I'd say that the risk may even grow faster than the reward does.

Think about it like this. Your reward is lowered for being near the blast zone, because all of your attacks send your opponent towards the opposite blast zone from the furthest possible point. The exception to this is a back throw, that's your only high-reward option.

Now your opponent, who's in the center, isn't limited in options space-wise, and his rewards are even higher, in that he has even MORE options than you do that give the same reward. Let's use MK as an example.

His Dthrow Fthrow and Uthrow all put the opponent near the blast zone in a really bad spot, or automatically kill depending on the DI. His Dsmash and Fsmash are likely to kill at the same percents your opponent's back throw would kill. His fair would kill much earlier, and so would his tippered rising dair (now I'm not sure quite yet how the movement of the stage would effect the effectiveness of his dair camping. I'd be inclined to say it'd strengthen it, but I'm not entirely sure, and this is just for an example of why walk-off camping wouldn't be overcentralizing, and why it'd be, at best, an added option). His nair would kill earlier, and it's one of his best out of shield moves. His aerial shuttle loop would kill much earlier, and his grounded one would set up a VERY bad position for the opponent (that's also the difference in risk:reward, followups are strengthened on someone who's close to a blast zone, because they have fewer options, and they're more likely to die because they're so close to the blast zone). Ftilt and Dtilt wouldn't kill any earlier, but both of them would become stronger because the followups after they hit get stronger.

There's no way that walkoff camping would be an overcentralizing strategy. And if it's not overcentralizing, wouldn't it just be an option that's not on other stages? A unique part of the stage that adds depth? Isn't that what you guys are looking for?

This stage is more fair than RC, and has a lot of similar qualities to it, although it doesn't have that quality of MK being at an inherently advantaged position for 6 out of the 8 minutes. And it gives certain characters counterpicks. Someone like Falco would likely do better against MK here.

This stage would add more good qualities to tournaments than RC does.

 

[DMG]

This stage is awful lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ghostbone and I tested 1-1 today, it's legit.

It's surprisingly easy to avoid DDD while still applying pressure to him. It's still a great stage for him due to the chance of a 0 > death, but not to the extent of being broken.

 

[Ghostbone]

I wouldn't say legit.

Just that D3 isn't any better than he normally is.

 

[MechaWave]

You heard Grim Tuesday and ghostbone. :3