Legalize Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

[SaveMeJebus]

Hey guys? Can we stop arguing with Jebus? I spent about ten minutes screaming at the walls in my room and it had about as much effect. Just sayin'.

How about you keep doing that. Sounds like loads of fun

@ Red Ryu, what CrimsonFeint said

 

[Akaku94]

Firstly Jebus, it's obvious that your goal is not to legalize 1-1, but to ban RC. This is certainly not the way to go about it. 1-1's scrolling forces an approach, while RC's does nothing of the sort. Furthermore, RC gives certain characters advantages without overcentralizing, but 1-1 overcentralizes toward campers with strong defense (ie Snake) or a chaingrab (ie D3) Permanent walkoff is usually a ban without second thought, and for good reason.

When you are on the left side of the stage, you only have one choice: approach. If you happen to be playing against a campy/chaingrab character (and you definitely will be if someone CPed the stage in the first place) you're basically screwed if your opponent is competent. Simply spawning to the left at the start of the match puts you at an instant disadvantage. This overcentralization removes game depth.

 

[Life]

Why was the stage banned originally?

Walkoffs and/or walls almost continuously, temporary caves of life. At least one or two of these elements can always be found, no matter what the timer says.

I will say that the stage is potentially legit in a one-stock w/food format, as walkoff camping is no longer ridiculous and everything else can be camped out until the stage moves forward to a better position. It'd be REALLY campy though. Def worse than RC.

That said, I certainly wouldn't use it in a traditional format. Might mess with the stage a little to see if I can articulate this stuff better.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, fair enough. So we have:

Forces an approach: I don't necessarily agree with this argument because being down in percent also forces you to approach. It's an inherent part of the game we have to deal with, or play a different one. That said, the stage does put a player at an immediate disadvantage upon starting the match, being spawn point. This is random, so it is unfair for it to be considered okay.

Over-centralizes towards camping and chaingrabbing: This one needs to be more specific, as currently it doesn't sound any different than what we already accept about Rainbow Cruise. I'm not disagreeing, but this doesn't pass without something to back it up.

Permanent Walkoff: This is false, as there are times where a pit in the ground or a pipe or the blocks near the flag are present. There is, however, a walkoff that appears often. This is just arguing semantics of permanent vs. practically permanent, but I'm covering it so that Jebus doesn't have to.

Walkoffs and/or walls almost continuously: This one is true. The walls are almost a non-issue because they move along with the stage and don't allow any characters to use them in a way that breaks them. Walls are banned regularly for enabling wall infinites and other shenanigans that require the wall to remain in place. The walkoffs are more of an issue. While not constant, they are present very often and create a very high-risk/high-reward scenario that detracts from the gameplay.

Temporary Cave of Life scenarios: Since they are temporary, they are not a problem. The scenarios that arise are nowhere nears as bad as Luigi's Mansion can be, and they are over and done with in due time.

All this said, this stage should remain banned. Jebus, please take your campaign to ban Rainbow Cruise to other places. There is no need to advocate for a clearly un-competitive stage in order to ban RC.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How about you keep doing that. Sounds like loads of fun

It was an intentional critique at both your disgusting "logic" that any kindergartner could shred and your dishonest, incredibly obstinate debate style, where people tell you exactly what you're doing wrong and then you ignore them. I'm going to start reporting your posts for trolling, because to a certain point, you give someone the benefit of the doubt that they can't be THAT ****ING STUPID.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I did some testing on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 and this is what i found out. I was using a three minute timer

1.The stage takes about two minutes to go from start to finish before it repeats itself.

2. From 3:00-2:28 a player can avoid getting chain grabbed by jumping on the blocks or standing on top of the pipes. From 2:27-2:02 the player is safe from walk offs thanks to the pit. From 2:02-1:46 players can once again avoid getting chain grabbed by jumping on the blocks. From 1:45-1:00 players are once again safe from walk offs.

There is no problem with the walk offs on this stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I may be missing something, but can't you permanently stay safe from walkoffs on Mario Circuit or Onett by constantly staying on the platforms? And doesn't that argument fail miserably because if you don't have the lead, you have to approach?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is safe to approach when there is a pit and when you are next to the blocks that look like half pyramids. DDD also loses
his ability to chain grab some characters when they are standing on the right side.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I just love how people are like "omg D3 is OP".
It's totally not like everyone CPs MK against us nearly every ****ing match. Heaven forbid we get a CP against... oh wait... NOBODY.

We're better off on other stages against CGable characters, as they WILL be faster than us, and the only char I'd really CP here is... let me think... NOBODY.

Stop with your Dedede waahs. Walkoffs don't automatically make a stage good for him. Try playing against a D3 on Eldin sometime, it's a nightmare for us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why was the stage banned originally?

Walkoff, temp walls.

Saying cruise is legal does not make this legal by extention. Cruise may be banned or not, but being legal does not allow other stages that are simular be legal.

You need to prove that cruise, which by are communities standards is one of the most borderline stages legal, is equal or not as bad as cruise and other borderline stages.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Ok then. I won't use that argument anymore. It is safe to approach when there is a pit and when you are next to the blocks that look like half pyramids. DDD also loses his ability to chain grab some characters when they are standing on the right side.

 

[Kantrip]

Walkoff, temp walls.

By this criteria, why isn't Rainbow Cruise banned?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can't we just have all the 100% obviously broken stages banned (like Temple) and then let players strike from the rest of them?

Sick of these subjective debates >_>

 

[Kantrip]

Can't we just have all the 100% obviously broken stages banned (like Temple) and then let players strike from the rest of them?

Sick of these subjective debates >_>

Where is the line drawn between "obviously broken" and not? That sounds subjective to me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you can make a case for it being legit (Mushroomy Kingdom) then it isn't obvious. Preet simple stuff, lol.

 

[Kantrip]

Anyone can make a case for any stage. If Jebus advocated for the legalization of Spear Pillar and Rumble Falls next, and made a case for them, should they be legal?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, because those can be simply refuted.

Jebus' claim that there are 4 whole minutes where you can attack a Dedede without fear of being chain-grabbed is possibly legitimate.

Sometimes I forget that the people on these boards have common sense. Something doesn't need to be black and white for it to work.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

By this criteria, why isn't Rainbow Cruise banned?

Different layouts.

Anyone can make a case for any stage. If Jebus advocated for the legalization of Spear Pillar and Rumble Falls next, and made a case for them, should they be legal?

You gotta get people to agree to that in real life, which is the most crucial and hardest part.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you can make a case for it being legit (Mushroomy Kingdom) then it isn't obvious. Preet simple stuff, lol.

Temple should be legal as Snake can use explosives to limit the circle camping players options.

Pit can aim arrows so you can't run away for ever.

Same for Spear Pillar, except every character with good projectiles could be able to fight from afar.

Not obvious.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Even if Snake could stop circle campers, that wouldn't stop the stage from being broken.

Pit cannot aim arrows to hit a character moving in a circle who has defensive options like shielding, dodging and just moving out of the way.

Spear Pillar you could make an argument for due to the hazards.

Very obvious.

 

[-LzR-]

Oh, it's another thread by JebusWOOOAAHHH D:

 

[T-block]

You can totally make a case for Rumble Falls -_-

Anyways, post like the above will not be tolerated. I will be watching this thread closely, and will be strict on any infraction worthy posts, so stay on topic and stay civil.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

DDD can standing infinite these characters on Mushroomy Kingdom and Rainbow Cruise

Snake
Wario
R.O.B.
Wolf
DDD
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Ike
Link
Charizard
Ivysaur

DDD can standing infinite these characters on any stage.

Mario
DK
Bowser
Luigi
Samus

Only these characters have to worry about getting grabbed by DDD. Everyone else either doesn't get chain grabbed from the right side or doesn't get chain grabbed at all.

 

[MechaWave]

I support this stage being legal. Dedede is a strong character here, yes, but other characters seemingly are okay. Most characters are bombarded by blocks preventing a few strategies.

People will mostly be concerned with the walk-off blastzones which, as Jebus said, isn't a problem exactly because the stage scrolls.

Without Jebus no one would have ever talked about this stage. 1-2 is, obviously, out of the question.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Jebus, just to be clear, you're considering the Step Chain Grab as an infinite?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus, just to be clear, you're considering the Step Chain Grab as an infinite?

No, it's a legit standing infinite if he grabs them while he is facing the left side of the stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DDD can standing infinite these characters on any stage.

Mario
DK
Bowser
Luigi
Samus

I was refering to this one.

The scroll thing is something I'm yet to test by myself (and I will when I got my Wii back).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was refering to this one.

The scroll thing is something I'm yet to test by myself (and I will when I got my Wii back).

Yes. DDD has a standing infinite against those characters on every stage so I thought they shoud be separated from the other list.

 

[Arcansi]

One character isn't an argument for a stage to be banned.

Now, one character with a situational chaingrab that is very avoidable on not a lot of the cast?

Come on.

I support this stage being legal.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

One character isn't an argument for a stage to be banned.

Actually it can be if it's problematic enough like Fox on YIipes in Melee.

All it takes is one drop of poison in the lake for the whole lake to be poisoned.

I don't like the fact that the stage has the lowest ceiling in the game, but that's not the main issue.

Even if D3 can't stand infinite foes, he can wall infinite 2/3's of the roster on the pipes and blocks until the scrolling gets close enough for him to Bthrow his foe for a quick death.

I honestly see MK being able to abuse the stage worse somehow.

Still, It feels kinda late to argue for the stage's legality don't you think?

 

[MechaWave]

Wouldn't it be best for the characters that can be chaingrabbed by Dedede to avoid the places where Dedede does infinite against, such as the blocks? Not very effective but it still works.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Then you would put yourself close to the already super low ceiling, making it very dangeous. Do it wrong with over 50% and you may end up giving him a free KO on you.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Actually it can be if it's problematic enough like Fox on YIipes in Melee.

All it takes is one drop of poison in the lake for the whole lake to be poisoned.

I don't like the fact that the stage has the lowest ceiling in the game, but that's not the main issue.

Even if D3 can't stand infinite foes, he can wall infinite 2/3's of the roster on the pipes and blocks until the scrolling gets close enough for him to Bthrow his foe for a quick death.

I honestly see MK being able to abuse the stage worse somehow.

Still, It feels kinda late to argue for the stage's legality don't you think?

He can't chain grab the characters that are not on the list all the way to the wall to start the infinite if he is facing the right part of the stage. If these characters stay to his right side and away from any pipes, he can't start any infinite.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

And towards close walk-off edges. I'm not kidding when I say that this stage has the closest blast zones in the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

And towards close walk-off edges. I'm not kidding when I say that this stage has the closest blast zones in the game.

A grab when DDD is facing the right side of the stage won't kill you unless you are really close to the blast zone and you are at higher percents (65%+). This is no different from a gimp on any other stage.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Being close to the blast zones on that stage isn't hard. Relatively speaking, if you aren't in the middle of the floor, you're close to a blast zone. That's how close the boundaries are in this stage. Even 1-2 has a slightly higher KO ceiling LOLOLOLOL.

The fact that there are no ledges and that 90% of the stage is walk-offs and walls does change things up enough to make it different from a gimp on another stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Being close to the blast zones on that stage isn't hard. Relatively speaking, if you aren't in the middle of the floor, you're close to a blast zone. That's how close the boundaries are in this stage. Even 1-2 has a slightly higher KO ceiling LOLOLOLOL.

The fact that there are no ledges and that 90% of the stage is walk-offs and walls does change things up enough to make it different from a gimp on another stage.

I don't know if you have really taken the time to really see the stage. The stage is huge and putting your opponent in a situation where he is close enough to the blast zone where a grab can kill him at medium high percents takes skill.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I have. I even have hard data to support how close the blast zones are.
Leaving my keyboard now.

 

[Johnknight1]

Seriously, we're debating whether 1-1 deserves to be legal or not? You get KO'd too early, this stage favors camping on the right to the max, the stage is practically all blast zones, and the roof is ridiculously low. So what if it can stop De3 infinites from going on forever? They are that bad, and on top of that the low roof would just justify chain grab spamming even more. And the wall grab infinites De3 would have would be way worse. All he'd camp and do is that.

Stuff like this would lead to every game on the map would be short, more based on camping and positioning on the right side of the screen than skill, and would involve less skill than any current or past legal stage. The stage has never been legal because it's just a camp zone that favors positioning over skill. It's a party map and nothing more, and really is lame even as a party stage.

Seriously, why not just legalize the Summit, Hanebow, or Skyworld? At least those stages with anti-camping rules would involve skill. Well, minus Hanebow. That stage just plain sucks!

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Time for some hard data.

Dead/blast zones(Camera boundaries are meaningless for my argument)

                             Left   Top    Right Bottom
[COLOR="Red"]Mushroomy Kingdom            -140  130     140    -55[/COLOR]
[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]Final Destination            -240  190     240    -115[/COLOR]
Battlefield                  -230  180     230    -115
Pokemon Stadium              -230  180     230    -115
Yoshi's Island               -220  180     220    -125

For a stage that's "huge", it's blast zones sure are constricting.