Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[SpiderMad]

I'm watching some Canadian 005 Diddy, he keeps using SH Bair (autocancel basically, I also saw him waveland/DJ it one or two times) , but never does it earlier so he can SH Bair Up-air/Bair/Nair/Fair. It's hard to do it early (asap after jump), but it's basically as hard as SHDF with Marth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHjTmi8twz8

I feel he shouldn't do SH Bair at all (he used it a ton) if he can't implement the double aerial mix-up (or at least he should use it knowing he's going to FFall/L-cancel it rather than Autocancel it). That is unless he used it super wisely which he didn't (Weave it more to be safe, but he's no where close to Jiggly's weave ability for her Bair on shield weaving, as well as not close to Falco's Nair strong/big hitboxes for when he does fade away Nair [Falco's also just a tad more air mobile than Diddy as well])
http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-2-5-statisitics-list-yep-its-back.335019/
Another thing he did only a few times that he could of done more was use DJ to something after the Bair, but like I said he rarely pulled it off. The last to worst thing would be WL. The reason why Diddy wouldn't SH Bair AC [with no mix-ups] is for the same reasons why you WOULD for Falco, Falcos bair lasts longer and ACs on a much later frame and has IASA too late for you to DJ/anything out of it from a SH: but it lasts long with a long lasting hitbox, or hits with the strong hit in the early frames of the move and then you weave it to safety/behind the opponent. Diddy's SH Bair AC on the other hand is weak and the move lasts shortly(you usually have IASA before the landing rather than a true Autocancel), meaning going for the AC instead of for the opportunity of using a 2nd aerial (his up-air and Nair are 4 frames which is uncommonly quick to come out, but all FOUR of his aerials can be used after it) is stupid. He should have just been pulling bananas/working his banana game for all the times he sent out SH Bair or basically anything else (Rising Fairs/Nairs, crawling out d-tilts [Not against Fox], doing FH Bair walls).

There's some other stuff he didn't do, like much of any WL out of Peanut gun stuff, and I felt like he blew a few situations to glide toss OOS while he had a banana but it looked like he didn't know how since the only time I saw him throw a banana OOS it wasn't a glide toss in any direction. He had somewhat of a banana game going on a DL match but it wasn't focused. He didn't have optimal peanut gun usage when edge guarding he kept shooting in the same spot after a SH and didn't WL after it/use a banana toss with the AD cancel to AGT it. He did a lot of standing grabs in scared situations vs Fox (though Fox is probably one of his toughest MUs), he used Nair OOS once I think: but there's that and also Up-b OOS, the Fox probably doesn't know the crazyness of Up-b so he might of been able to use it more. I was gonna say something else too but I forgot just now.. Oh I remember: he didn't use Dash attack off any ledges AT ALL. Especially at DL and BF it's the perfect spot for it especially at the beginning of the game. and even during the game it's great especially if the opponent isn't use to its surprise/speed to throw out hitboxes for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKvpFuaSwNE

If Guru got damage for the hitboxes in his hitbox .gif thread I would like to determine the best options after hitting with DA off a ledge like I just mentioned (I think both hits of D-smash can hit, and all the hits of Up-smash, but then you can also go for another DA and try to lead something off that)


Tournaments also suck because they don't use the awesome wifi air dodge and component/S-video cables, especially if the composite cables are using a cheap splitter for the stream and not using the preferred method of this (if the TV doesn't have S-video you let the recording device use it, otherwise do the opposite)
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Composite-Yellow-S-Video-Stereo/dp/B003L16ZBI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364100603&sr=8-1&keywords=wii cable s video

Here's what I was watching, once the stream is over look at the archive or w/e
http://www.twitch.tv/captainlpika

If you aren't understanding what AC/IASA is check these
http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15037999&postcount=78796

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

My lord that was a lot of analyzing.
The diddy you're explaining sounds like he's probably going through learning phase. Trying to see what followups are better suited for when and where.

And there was something about fox being one of Diddys toughest MUs? Bah.

 

[Oracle]

disqo you need to play a good fox before you make that assessment. We don't have any here

 

[SpiderMad]

I got some more random general stuff:

You can immediately AGT back an item (Peanut/Banana) that was thrown at you instead of catching it, technically you could do this in Brawl but I think it was safer/better to just catch the item if it was a Peanut rather than try to immediate AGT it back. Obviously in P:M though you could AGT it back and also use whatever momentum direction with it, which would make a bad ass comeback if you started some game ending combo with it.

In Brawl you can't cancel a jump (animation) with Grab or Up-smash (Up-smash seemed to work anyways for dashing and stuff)
In Melee you can't RAR (jump out of a dash turn around animation)
Now in P:M you can RAR into JC of a grab or Up-smash, which means you basically have an almost instant reverse grab/Up-smash now.

In earlier posts I compared Diddy to other characters in terms of his moves but I got a few more to add
-Mario and Diddy both have the same D-smash (the first hit of Diddy's is stronger, idk about Mario's), wear a hat, and make a bunch of ****ing noise.
-Diddy's Nair is close to Ike's (at least more than any other character) except it seems to be better in that it comes out much faster and probably ends a lot sooner too
-Diddy's weak Fair leads to another Fair (Like CF's)

You can drop through a platform and immediately while you're falling through it Z-grab the item that was laying on it, but you can also immediate AGT the item which seems to be hard to do while dropping through the platform but it's possible and looks cool.

EDIT:
You can also Peanut gun and AGT a Banana that's on the platforms of PS2/PS

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Return instathrows in brawl were awesome and scary.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

disqo you need to play a good fox before you make that assessment. We don't have any here

I'm gonna camp.
Really
Really
Really
Really hard.

 

[Oro?!]

I don't think you fully grasp what Fox can do if that's your gameplan.

 

[SpiderMad]

Ya know how Armada had different bomb set-ups he tried for rest punishes? What's the best stuff Diddy can do?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I don't think you fully grasp what Fox can do if that's your gameplan.

Why don't you fully grasp these nuts.

 

[SpiderMad]

I liked ur post before u changed it lol

 

[Arcalyth]

How do I know when I'm AGTing properly?

Is it possible to waveland and throw at the same time? (AGT Waveland or some such?) What are the benefits and drawbacks? I want to know how to integrate side-b, dash attack, and popgun wavelands with AGT if it's possible.

Also, can anyone actually explain what exactly AGT is and how it works? I know the input (I can bomb jump with Young Link) but not the mechanics or any theory behind it.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

It is indeed possible to waveland and throw at the same time. AGT waveland, like you said. Benefits and drawbacks are only as you see it. You may be in a position where this option is available, but choosing so will put you in a higher risk scenario and vice versa. Experimenting whenever possible is the best way you'll develop a feel for when and where to do this kinda stuff.

Glidetossing is basically roll momentum being cancelled into a throw. Aerial glide tossing is just the same. Air dodge momentum in whichever way being canceled into the throw. Different characters lengths vary, as do different directions for those characters.

Add stuff to this spidermad.

 

[SpiderMad]

How do I know when I'm AGTing properly?

I'm not sure how to tell the difference of a no momentum chosen AGT and a C-stick Aerial throw. But I guess this would be a good test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3wjIqOJpW0
If you're not AGT'ing you die, easy as that lol. You'll obviously know if you AGT'd if you did a big momentum one, which reflects the length of what would be an air dodge if you didn't have an item. The same way people try to teach AGT'ing to Bomb jump applies mostly to just practicing getting the max air dodge length before you practice turning that into an AGT. I was actually struggling with deciphering why I wasn't getting the maximum length I wanted until I realized that fact and practiced just thinking about getting the max distance I normally would with an air dodge.

Is it possible to waveland and throw at the same time? (AGT Waveland or some such?) What are the benefits and drawbacks? I want to know how to integrate side-b, dash attack, and popgun wavelands with AGT if it's possible.

In terms of using AGT in place of Waveland, It sounds cool and I never thought of it before: but I actually think it wouldn't work out that well: since you release even the quickest throw (Up-throw happens the earliest, at least for TL) at about the same distance as you reach the max distance of the momentum: so it's essentially like a triangle jump or lousy wavedash where there's not really much sliding happening other than the fact you just gained +6 frames for SpecialLanding rather than NormalLanding (normal landing is 4 frames for most characters, all character's SpecialLanding is 10 frames). I'm not sure if landing while throwing/AGT'ing goes into SpecialFall or not though.

So when you say "AGT waveland", you're basically saying would you rather AGT than waveland: since it's almost like two different things entirely since there's little sliding that you'd want close to wavelanding from AGting into the ground. It's similar though in that you can instead slightly AGT Up and to the side if you want with the AGT while you throw either direction and you're basically throwing while approaching/retreating except you're going to land after the throw (in what kind of landing animation idk).

There's a similar concept to this about Lucas, where you can DJC Side-b in place of waveland and even slide a bit and it actually puts you into normal landing rather than special fall saving you 6 frames.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJJAHxx-QbU

For popgun there's this, which Wolf can do as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=87G-nPP4Njo#t=39s

For side-b I don't usually see myself throwing bananas after it in most situations, instead I usually put an up-air/nair out since they come out the fastest, especially if I'm about to land near an opponent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ChUsaNlLAo4#t=27s (This match is old, I got more coming eventually)
^ I had a really surprising/nice one happen vs Rat in tournament, it was really frame perfect and caught him off-guard. Maybe he remembers it lol. Unlike in the video it was after a non-attack Side-b, which is slightly harder to do an aerial frame perfectly after it without triggering the attack part of the side-b.

You can apply this same concept with a banana you already have (since re-catching the peanut is crazy situational). Obviously if you're using the side-b to just gain aerial distance while you try to reach an opponent you just do whatever after it like AGT if you wanted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q7ZXa4AIA7U#t=11s

Side-b into waveland for the purpose of picking up a banana off the ground is def. good though.


Also, can anyone actually explain what exactly AGT is and how it works? I know the input (I can bomb jump with Young Link) but not the mechanics or any theory behind it.

No clue, just know it was in Melee. How many different lengths (of an airdodge essentially) and all that I'd like to find out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCzjb9H2PA

One weird thing I discovered though, is similar to an air dodge, it actually cancels your momentum a lot regardless of what direction you pick. Long story short I was trying to AGT an item after a Peanut pop so I could reach the peanut and AGT it (after I had just used the AGT of the previous item to reach it): it doesn't work though because even though I jumped with max velocity the AGT forward or whichever direction cancels out your momentum and goes the same velocity (distance/time) every time. So if you jumped going 100mph and AGT'd Forward it would go the same 50mph or whatever constant it does for the throw distance and thus even after it you'd decrease velocity now from 50mph instead of decreasing from the 100mph you had. I'm not sure if it cancels/disregards your previous momentum entirely though, maybe it decreases it a certain amount or for a certain range of speeds or something.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

It cancels all your momentum and replaces it with the momentum of your character specific AGT.

In regards to this AGT waveland stuff, spidey explained it pretty well. The waveland aspect of it is an illusion. You're basically AGT-ing into the ground and landing. I don't think the special landing applies to the AGT ground thing: it's the animation of the throw that you're waiting out, not the landing animation.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Man. Diddy really sucks.

 

[SpiderMad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYQQVkcDvOo

 

[SpiderMad]

I finally got a day off and forced myself to record footage for a small tutorial video of most every random thing I know besides stuff I could easily describe off gameplay footage (which I'll hopefully have more of). I just did random stuff for an hour and exported it to YT in hopes I "Save As Copy" individual cuts of what I want then download them all (If I downloaded the entire thing and then went through it for Premiere it'd bog down my 2gb RAM computer).

Some of the things are:

The concept of If you shield, you can Jump and immediately AGT a banana off the ground that's in a pretty big radius around you: I haven't seen people use this even in Brawl. Also this same concept applies to When you are on the ledge and there's a banana close to the ledge you can ledge drop > jump > AGT the banana either towards the stage or behind you (to edge guard) while you momentum upward to land on the stage. You can also do that after a peanut gun (ledge drop > jump > peanut gun > AGT cancel the JC of the peanut gun to throw the banana) it's the same concept as if you had the banana in your hand even though it's on the stage. You can also SH Bair/Up-air and AGT a banana that's on the ground


Edit: I cut all the segments, now let me just make a list of the things I forgot to include before I forget so I can possibly do them later:

Dash attack off ledge stuff (It's ability to be FFalled like an aerial and stuff)
Wavebounce banana pull
Peanut gun to straight wadedash off ledge to aerial (basic but unused, like Ike's QD to WD off edge to aerial)
WJ Wavebounce Peanut gun (Borrowed past video)
AGT'ing off a platform downward for edge guard
Drop through platform > grab/AGT banana that's on the platform
Nair OOS (I didn't do it OOS)
Up-b OOS

http://youtu.be/9yZaBPp5ZF0

 

[Sashimi]

For those of you with Diddy Kong experience in Brawl:

I'm new to P:M and still choosing my main. I have it narrowed down to Sheik and Diddy. I mained Diddy in Brawl, but I never played competitive Melee, so Wavedashing, L-Cancelling etc are new to me. Will learning to do these and all of Diddy's other new tricks mess up my Brawl game? I still intend to play Brawl, so I'd like to know if putting in time with P:M Diddy Kong will help, hurt, or have no effect on my Brawl game. If it helps, then excellent! If it hurts, then I'll go with Sheik instead for P:M.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I really wish people would realize the amazingness that is sideb kick.

 

[SpiderMad]

I really wish people would realize the amazingness that is sideb kick.

They did =(

 

[GuruKid]

I'm new to P:M and still choosing my main. I have it narrowed down to Sheik and Diddy. I mained Diddy in Brawl, but I never played competitive Melee, so Wavedashing, L-Cancelling etc are new to me. Will learning to do these and all of Diddy's other new tricks mess up my Brawl game? I still intend to play Brawl, so I'd like to know if putting in time with P:M Diddy Kong will help, hurt, or have no effect on my Brawl game. If it helps, then excellent! If it hurts, then I'll go with Sheik instead for P:M.

Playing the same character across multiple games can be fairly difficult in general due to muscle memory. Although PM Diddy shares the emphasis on item and stage control the precise methods of managing that in the PM world are much more different than in Brawl (wavedashing to pick up items, AGTs, the different followups from banana hits, etc). Hate to say it but if you are serious about your Brawl Diddy then it's probably best to focus on a different character for PM.

 

[Sashimi]

Playing the same character across multiple games can be fairly difficult in general due to muscle memory. Although PM Diddy shares the emphasis on item and stage control the precise methods of managing that in the PM world are much more different than in Brawl (wavedashing to pick up items, AGTs, etc). Hate to say it but if you are serious about your Brawl Diddy then it's probably for the best to focus on a different character for PM.

Thanks! I'm mostly worried that I'll be in a Brawl match one day and forget I can't wavedash or something. Guess this means 'll be maining Sheik and secretly rooting for all the Diddy players.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

They did =(

Still not seeing enough of it. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on any current versions of PM yet, but I want to try out some things that no one seems to realize they can do. Should be pretty crazy. The last time I played PM was when Diddy wasn't in it lol. (or when he didn't have many changes at all in a test build)

It is almost August though, so things have probably changed from what I've seen. I need to look for more matches.

 

[GuruKid]

Orrrrr you can just play the new build at Jceez's place.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Orrrrr you can just play the new build at Jceez's place.

Oh shut up Guru. I plan to if I get the chance. Current Diddy looks really fun though.

I saw that you shortened Diddy's sideb, but I don't think this really fixes the move, it's still pretty busted if left as is, ESPECIALLY with the new **** Diddy can do. Is the distance also changed when you instant kick? When I do try him out I'll be able to tell if it really does need more nerfing, because sideb isn't nerfed if only the distance is changed, imo. But hey, we'll see. You guys probably know a hell of a lot more than I do about anything, and 2.6 is coming.

Last time I tried him we were all dying over how dumb Fair was.

 

[GuruKid]

I won't get into the finer details just yet (I'll be discussing the changes more in depth a bit later on as the builds become stabilized) but the distance is just one of several changes made to SideB. The goal behind these changes is not to deliver a straight nerf to the move itself (playtesting has shown the tilt jump to give some unique advantages using the grab/kick's durations in fact) but rather correct its risk/reward ratio. I tried to maintain this frame of mind when applying his other changes (he has quite a handful of changes done for 2.6, several of which were unfortunately not displayed by the players or picked up on by the viewers during JC'z stream).

 

[SpiderMad]

In other words he got Ike'd, where can I get my trophy for enduring this twice now lol

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

As long as the kick still has a long lasting hitbox and he can act after it, dat **** is good.

 

[SpiderMad]

Besides it being the dumbest looking thing you'll ever see since it goes nowhere and feels like you're playing Brawl (why would you submit yourself to this ugly thing when you can just Nair? maybe Nairs getting nerfs..), his return to the stage options from the ledge got hurt really bad as well as stage coverage (and the essence of having speedy style AKA not being a stupid 2.5 Zelda) in general. Ledge drop/Ledge drop WJ to Side-b is in my eyes completely killed, you should be able to dodge/hit a monkey moving slower than an Ant stuck in a time warp. I'm still unsure and ignorant on things, so I look forward to playing the final 2.6 and being disappointed and angry (in which case I'll demand my trophy) or unexpectedly joyed. For now I only tend towards DMG's post but like I said I still want to experience these changes more if you guys truly feel they're great changes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2276#post-15649382

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Nair forces you to use a jump, doesn't last as long as kick does and its hitbox for this kind of use is much more dangerous than kick's. Can't nair with a banana either.

I haven't seen much of it, but with AGT he gets four jumps, basically. Nair also cannot change directions while airborne and doesn't move you quickly like kick does. Nothing you can do even in PM has given the amount of option killers that kick does. It was even better in vB and B+ because you could double jump before you landed if you did instant kick on the ground.

Dunno what you mean by slow though because instant kick has always been faster than just running and jumping. Might not br in PM anymore, especially with the distance change.

If you're using sideb, unless you're trying to grab or something, always, always instant kick imo. You double your distance and speed, give yourself a nice front hitbox and you'll be in the animation for just as long as you would be during regular monkey flip.

 

[Ignignog]

I do not play Diddy (mainly because I'm pretty bad at managing items) however I was playing the other day with a friend of mine and found out something interesting...

So in v brawl Diddy could pick up bananas with dash attack, right (super lame) well I was testing whether or not Diddy had a DACUS, and found something very interesting. Apparently you can pick up bananas with dash attack still, but it's a different input. Like I said, I was testing if Diddy had a dacus, so as I was running over a banana and put in the dacus input (dash, down c-stick+up d-stick+z) and Diddy picked the banana up with a dash attack (since he doesn't have a dacus)

At first I thought it was an error, but then I showed the guy I was playing with and he ended up being able to perform the function as well, except he didn't press up on the d-stick (which may not have been necessary anyway)

Anyway I just thought I'd share that. Idk if anybody already knew about this but I certainly did not.

 

[Beorn]

I do not play Diddy (mainly because I'm pretty bad at managing items) however I was playing the other day with a friend of mine and found out something interesting...

So in v brawl Diddy could pick up bananas with dash attack, right (super lame) well I was testing whether or not Diddy had a DACUS, and found something very interesting. Apparently you can pick up bananas with dash attack still, but it's a different input. Like I said, I was testing if Diddy had a dacus, so as I was running over a banana and put in the dacus input (dash, down c-stick+up d-stick+z) and Diddy picked the banana up with a dash attack (since he doesn't have a dacus)

At first I thought it was an error, but then I showed the guy I was playing with and he ended up being able to perform the function as well, except he didn't press up on the d-stick (which may not have been necessary anyway)

Anyway I just thought I'd share that. Idk if anybody already knew about this but I certainly did not.

Yeah, that was an intentional change. Press Z during dash attack to pick up items. I think I remember one of the PMBR saying it was to give him more ownership over his nanners.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Dash attack Z pickup is mad useless though. You're better off just using other options, especially with a nerfed DA. jump + attack is much better now.

 

[Arcalyth]

Dash attack Z pickup is mad useless though. You're better off just using other options, especially with a nerfed DA. jump + attack is much better now.

DA item grab ~ jump cancel AGT banana throw

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You can jump cancel it? Whaaaat I need to try this myself. I'm finishing installation now fffff

 

[Arcalyth]

You can jump cancel it? Whaaaat I need to try this myself. I'm finishing installation now fffff

you can JC when you do it off of platforms

 

[himemiya]

So can anyone explain to me on how good his d-throw is? It just seem to look like an 2nd b-throw to me. I personally would like it be more like mario/luigi's d-throw but that just me. So is there anything good in his d-throw?

 

[AbstractLogic]

So can anyone explain to me on how good his d-throw is? It just seem to look like an 2nd b-throw to me. I personally would like it be more like mario/luigi's d-throw but that just me. So is there anything good in his d-throw?

You will find that the Down throw is much better for comboing in general than the Back throw. at mid to high percentages the knockback stays pretty close to what it is at 0

 

[Arcalyth]

Also has nasty punishes on bad DI.

 

[AbstractLogic]

I've found a good followup to downthrow is a Dash Attack and you can get a free up smash if they DI wrong.