Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

you can JC when you do it off of platforms

That's using a platform. And even then, there are still much better options than DA, especially when you have platforms. Though now that DA hits more than once, it may be better onstage off platforms.

What made DA item pickup so good was not only having low recovery, but you had just enough time to enable yourself to USE the banana you picked up. If you just get ***** for trying DA item pickup in the first place because of its recovery, there really isn't much use over doing something much safer. Then it's just a combo tool, and you have nair and sideb for low hitting combo tools.

In other news, Guru somehow managed to make sideb suck. Jesus man, that takes some real effort. ;_;

 

[AbstractLogic]

Do you have any video/gif of the Side B?

 

[Arcalyth]

Whoaaaa, glide toss (out of shield) got hella buffed distance-wise. You slide so far now O__O

I like new side-b because it makes recovery mixup easier (wall jump/cling is actually viable now) and I'm discovering some interesting uses of its shorter commitment. You can do aerials/waveland out of it which is really nice.

Haven't quite figured out new DA yet but I've only played a handful of games thus far

 

[SpiderMad]

so far fine with all the changes besides the the Smash input for side-b is too strict
You completely need the far side-b for this now, but it's just a tad aggravating (especially for life of controller)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytnZeqDbEtI
I think links strong side b is a lot easier than diddys
bananas velocity seems dif

 

[AbstractLogic]

It feels like his Peanut wavelanding is smoother, but the side-B smash input is very strict

 

[Arcalyth]

bananas velocity seems dif

i'd like official word on this but something felt different when I was playing yesterday for me too

 

[AbstractLogic]

Honestly with a bit more control between the smash and tilt side-b I think they have done it with Diddy. I'm really happy with how he's developing and can't wait to start proving what he can do competitively.

 

[SpiderMad]

Honestly with a bit more control between the smash and tilt side-b I think they have done it with Diddy.

Yeah, I really hope they change it when there's a possible 2.6b version: things like this MK bug will most likely warrant one (Mario also was heard to desync Wifi, and if you cape MK's up-air during a certain frame they said it freezes the game)
http://smashboards.com/threads/2-6-metaknight-teleport-bug.338721/

 

[AbstractLogic]

Diddy's new dash attack is perfect for the offstage DA -> Dair kills like in brawl.

 

[tripwire]

It feels like his Peanut wavelanding is smoother, but the side-B smash input is very strict

Better Smash that ****.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Diddy, stop playing hard to get with your smash Side B. Make the timing less strict, and we can be friends again.

 

[GuruKid]

Diddy's SideB Tilt/Smash window is and has always been the same since Brawl. If you can Smash Razor Leaf with Ivy then you shouldn't have a problem with Diddy's Flip as they share the same 2-frame window. There's just more need to practice it now with the new distances.

And there are still some major changes to 2.6 Diddy I'm assuming haven't been discovered yet since no one's mentioned em. Keep looking!

 

[SpiderMad]

Diddy's SideB Tilt/Smash window is and has always been the same since Brawl. If you can Smash Razor Leaf with Ivy then you shouldn't have a problem with Diddy's Flip as they share the same 2-frame window. There's just more need to practice it now with the new distances.

And there are still some major changes to 2.6 Diddy I'm assuming haven't been discovered yet since no one's mentioned em. Keep looking!

New Razor Leaf: I like that it seems to have been brought in line with other

smash/tilt Specials.

Which makes me wonder why Diddy's Flip seems even stricter than 2.5 Leaf. I

just figured it had its distance nerfed until I came here. It's a good idea,

but I just dislike failing the smash Flip ⅓ of the time.

I'd definitely like Diddy's smash sideB to be a little less strict. It

reminds me of how difficult it was to get Ivysaur's smash razor leaf to come

out but (correct me if i'm wrong) you changed that in 2.6, so i'm hoping

Diddy's sideB will get the same treatment in the next release/patch.

Come on dude you say this after all this time =(, Links is so much easier and enjoyable: and the amount of effort/force going into Diddy's strong detriments my actions before and after it as well as unhealthy for control stick. And this is different from mastering the shortest frame SHs, those require finesse, this requires brutality.

The nerf makes the strong much more needed, and that's okay to us, but just the input for it is still ridiculous even though we're going to be needing it so much more: why would you be against that?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Diddy's SideB Tilt/Smash window is and has always been the same since Brawl. If you can Smash Razor Leaf with Ivy then you shouldn't have a problem with Diddy's Flip as they share the same 2-frame window. There's just more need to practice it now with the new distances.

Artificial difficulty isn't fun. I am a player, not a robot. Street Fighter 4 fans might like this, but my controller doesn't.

 

[AbstractLogic]

And there are still some major changes to 2.6 Diddy I'm assuming haven't been discovered yet since no one's mentioned em. Keep looking!

Side-B is more dynamic with Smash/Tilt
Glide Toss length is increased
Barrels aren't ridiculous anymore (faster fall speed when recovering/more landing lag.
Dash attack is multiple hits

Are there still major changes Guru? I'll keep trying to hunt for more if you think there are any that would be noticeable

 

[GuruKid]

At least 3 more significant changes, yes. Changes that should make anyone go "whoa", hopefully in good ways.

 

[_R@bid_]

I've heard bananas can be hit now.

 

[AbstractLogic]

It's hard to tell, but it looks like the popgun "put away" animation is shorter when you cancel it.

MAYBE bananas are out a little longer. it's hard to tell

 

[Arcalyth]

I think utilt launches higher now. Popgun might charge faster? Dtilt seems to have a larger hitbox and/or range as well

not sure if any of those are right but I really think utilt launches higher now

 

[Soft Serve]

Holding the B button while using Side-b starts the Kick instantly.

 

[Lex Jewthor]

Holding the B button while using Side-b starts the Kick instantly.

More precisely, you HAVE to start the kick instantly or it locks you into the grab. You can no longer delay the kick at all. Probably my least favourite change, but I'll live. the Jump off the side B grab is air dodge cancel-able now If you have a Banana when you land a grab on a standing opponent, you can immediately glide toss down after the jump throw for a waveland AND guaranteed trip at low - mid percents, though, so that's a pretty sexy change.

 

[AbstractLogic]

The Monkey Flip can still e cancelled into the kick. The window is very small however there is a difference. essentially the 2.6 side-B gives 6 possibilities.

Short + Long Diddy Hump
Short + Long cancelled kick
Short + long Kick

 

[leelue]

More precisely, you HAVE to start the kick instantly or it locks you into the grab. You can no longer delay the kick at all. Probably my least favourite change, but I'll live.

It's ok, being able to threaten a hitbox longer than your moving aerial grabbox was probably not good design to begin with. I think 2.6 diddly is a brillion times more sensible than 2.5 diddy.

Diddy's SideB Tilt/Smash window is and has always been the same since Brawl. If you can Smash Razor Leaf with Ivy then you shouldn't have a problem with Diddy's Flip as they share the same 2-frame window. There's just more need to practice it now with the new distances.

Gonna have to agree with the guy who said artificial difficulty is a bad thing. Because it is.

 

[GuruKid]

The truth is that due to coding limitations it is currently not possible to change the timing window for Diddy's SideB; the way the game decides the control stick threshold with similar tilt/smash specials (article floats, for those who are familiar with character file attributes) does not apply to Diddy's for some unknown reason. The main reason it wasn't pursued extensively before is that no playtesters have had any trouble inputting either command so it wasn't seen as an issue. We're looking further into standardizing the input thresholds for these types of specials for the next version.

 

[AbstractLogic]

honestly after about a week of playing with it, I can do all of the side-B inputs on command now. Just go to training and grind a bit

 

[AbstractLogic]

Also if anyone is familiar with the sliding banana glitch from brawl, it is very easy to perform on skyloft. You can't shield it and it's a guaranteed trip... Just sayin

 

[SpiderMad]

Also if anyone is familiar with the sliding banana glitch from brawl, it is very easy to perform on skyloft. You can't shield it and it's a guaranteed trip... Just sayin

I remember seeing that on a old Brawl tutorial video, can you make a video of it? I don't remember how it works

 

[AbstractLogic]

okay I'll do it tonight.

 

[AbstractLogic]

So the Side-B Jump into a downward AGT to an upsmash is probably the greatest thing to happen to Diddy's combo game in a while.

 

[Soft Serve]

Does anyone have any suggestions or tips for the Ivysaur matchup? I'm still learning Diddy so I'm sure as I keep playing the matchup it will get easier to understand, but right now it just feels very frustrating. Approaching is slow and very hard and Ivy's razor leaf beats most of my zoning options. What I've been doing is keeping a nanner between me and Ivy, approaching with short hop popgun wavelands over grounded razor leafs and just crouching under short hopped one, with the banana hopefully preventing a free dash grab if I get hit or caught in shield from it. Using platforms obviously makes it easier to get in, but i'm wondering if trying hard to get in is even optimal. Getting in with diddy is a lot harder than getting in on Ivy as marth, unless I'm doing something horribly wrong?

Also, how do you edgeguard Ivy? I've been using pop gun and bananas to try to steal jumps/hit ivy out of dairs, then grabbing the ledge and hopefully bair Ivy before the up-b comes out. If i cant I just ledge hog, and either try to time an up-b spike before she pulls in to the ledge, or force the ledge jump and try to ledge jump fair/uair/side-b before Ivy reacts (bairs).

One more question, If I land a tech chase dair, but their precent is too low to kill with up-b/fair, and too high to combo off of a nair or uair, is it better to try to go for the edge guard or to dair again and hope to get down fast enough for an oki situation? I guess it would depend on opponents DI patterns, teching habits and banana placement. Would it be matchup dependent? I think it would be less of a risk to go for the tech chase instead of edge guard against someone with bad/slow wake up options like DDD, while falcon or ganon are easy to edgeguard in comparison to Ivy or peach, so sending them as far away from the ledge as possible and setting up a gimp would be easier/safer.

Next time i get together with my friend for a smashfest I'll record a **** ton of matches and upload them to get some feedback. Diddy/Ivy matches are hella boring to watch though.

 

[Lex Jewthor]

Only option for edgeguarding ivy is either catch her farther out so she can't just up b, or force the ledge hop and hope you can get a good hit in off it. Anything within her tether range is stupid safe.

Best thing I've found for getting in is glide toss a banana at the razor leaf an it'll kill it, letting you slide in. Ivy's Nair is stupid good at getting out of jail though. Shield presure is nearly impossible because I find her nair beats everything. Can't even follow up on nair combos properly without it beating you.

 

[SpiderMad]

Only option for edgeguarding ivy is either catch her farther out so she can't just up b, or force the ledge hop and hope you can get a good hit in off it. Anything within her tether range is stupid safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6Ub2eoALL4U&t=251

 

[Lex Jewthor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6Ub2eoALL4U&t=251

That gave me a bananagasm.

 

[AbstractLogic]

When in doubt with most matchups, just use more bananas honestly.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I'm finding instant naner pickup and toss off the ground with AGT to be kind of hard. It's so awesome though, but c-stick for hard toss makes it so much harder to me.

 

[Soft Serve]

I've really been enjoying setting up ledge guards with the new Glide toss distance. you can Glide toss towards the ledge with a ground toss, and your momentum will carry you off the ledge and you'll insta-grab it if you're not holding away. Its really strong against everyone once they are in a situation where they can't recover high. With proper banana placement for the match up, you basically force them to land close to you on the ledge where you can punish the landing lag, or they have to land on the banana in which case you can wave land from the ledge and get a grab, smash, DA, or tech chase where they tech.

 

[Arcalyth]

Picked up the game again, started working on my Diddy again despite Mad's advice to not bother

Bananas make so much more sense to me now that I'm not /only/ trying to AGT; on hit, the timing to Z-grab them is always the same which makes comboing with bananas so much easier to think about. I've asked my opponents how they feel about the character and most people reply with "FSXRI****CKING BANANAS" or "it's really hard to keep track of all of the movement/getting thrown around." Diddy's mobility is phenomenal. So fluid, so smooth.

Universally, I've been playing with RAR/turngrab a lot (which has done wonders for my MK and Zelda, too!) and Diddy's reversed stuff is really neat. I like SH RAR bair > anything (the mixups!), cancelling dashturns with glide tosses, and of course the universal tech chase with turngrab.

Still trying to implement popgun/general AGT stuff but Diddy's comboing, mobility, and stage control really makes it seem unnecessary... for now. I'm sure peanuts will become more vital once people start figuring out how to use bananas against us (popgun > waveland toward a banana sitting there as bait?)

Glide toss is significantly faster than dash throw. It's worth the tech skill requirement (in retort to someone who once said there's no point because of the risk of rolling... since when did a technical floor stop anyone from doing things in this game?)

Diddy may have a bit of a learning curve but the process of mastering his antics proves quite fun
And it's really his wacky movement and general gaiety that make this character great, in my opinion.

 

[GMaster171]

I started playing Diddy over the great DDoS, and I have to agree I love his overall movement and control game. Iv started him with NO background from Brawl or Melee, so hes an extremely fun and unique character to learn. His tech, while not being as difficult as spacies imo, still requires its own niche when playing, and that's my favorite part about characters.

Iv got a few vids in the vids thread, could anyone critique, I really need it.

 

[Soft Serve]

Gmaster, does this mean im no longer the only ness main to convert to kongunisum?

 

[SpiderMad]

Glide toss is significantly faster than dash throw. It's worth the tech skill requirement (in retort to someone who once said there's no point because of the risk of rolling... since when did a technical floor stop anyone from doing things in this game?)

Who would say such thing? One point I made was it being reverted to Brawl length kinda over-prioritizes using it more than other options with the Banana. Sort of like Ike's faster Nair is better for the niches Up-air had leaving it solely for Killing.

Still main issue with me is how dumb his strong side-b input is (and for Pit how his arrows were changed, leaving SH Arrow WL/AGT/DJ undoable [Which people didn't even use, just like Diddy's Ledge WJ Side-b which now requires the strong input].