Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[SpiderMad]

Saw some of the Gimpyfish vs Bladewise stream

BW liked using reverse Peanut gun to aerial for edge guarding, which I thought was stupid unless in rare circumstances (I'm not sure what he thinks about it, but I'm pretty sure he's doing it more for experimentation or flash)

The peanut gun gives you backwards velocity upon release, meaning you can reach farther out for edge guarding someone by reversing it. Thing is though that reaching that far out just to hit someone with his mediocre power bair (since you're facing away from the opponent, unless you're able to fly past them and do a more powerful fair and have it stage spike them which isn't likely) isn't much compared to how he's already got a barrage of projectiles to reach that distance easily (but instead he was just hoping on hitting some small weak aerial, which was basically throwing away his edge guard opportunity).

The better method for the similar task of wanting to hit them far out with an aerial would be to just reverse pull a banana while you're jumping to go off-stage, the only down-side is that you're not getting the extra momentum from the reverse peanut gun release.

Something he COULD have done using his reverse peanut gun edge guard was have a banana in hand while he performed it (which he usually didn't), and then AGT the banana backwards using the AD cancel of the peanut gun which would not only end the peanut gun sooner with the AGT, but give the opponent an actual projectile threat as well as have himself now facing forwards which would allow him to use the stronger aerial of fair

Here's an example of using the AD cancel to throw the banana, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q7ZXa4AIA7U#t=86s
You can see this and also infer how good it would be if instead of doing a DJ after doing the AGT of the banana you instead used short distance side-b, it would be essentially now making a huge RAINBOW of threats with the banana covering one angle, the peanut covering another and your side-b covering the rest, THEN if the side-b doesn't hit you still have your DJ to get on stage (or DJ to Up-b)

Also keep in mind with the paragraph I talked about above, that you can CONTROL where you want the banana to go with the AGT momentum given to yourself: which also dictates now where your side-b is going to cover.

 

[SpiderMad]

New video thing

http://youtu.be/FR1DtS2hDo4

WJ wavebounce Naner
Up-b can be utilized to grab the edge fast (running to rar wavedash grab the edge could be faster, but idk)
Ledge drop DJ Peanut gun to AD cancel using AGT of banana
SH Peanut gun to AD cancel using AGT of banana
FH reverse Peanut to AD cancel using AGT of banana (demonstrates my previous post about how quickly you can get the reverse Peanut gun to end with the AGT of the banana so that you can still make use of the boost the peanut gun gives you)
Pivot grab dash boost thingy


Stage discussion time (Brawl diddy stage info is also helpful, tell some if u have any):

Battlefield- I've played this stage the most, and valued it at was one both my favorites and best for P:M v1 Marth and then P:M v2 Ike, but now with Diddy (v2.5) I'm not so sure about "best" for him. When I have complete control of my game (My Tv with Component cables, wonderful Wifi Air dodge) I can utitlize all the AGT'ing the bananas off the platforms. The downside is when I'm not at my peak of my game or at tournaments with crappy TVs and the stupid offline air dodge, it's almost not beneficial much at all and instead the platforms just give people an escape from bananas to trip them (or if the bananas on the platform it's only useful for re-grabbing/AGt'ing it and won't be tripping anybody easily). The other benefit of this stage though is his dash attack off the edge of the platforms works really well and catches people by suprise all the time with how fast it cancels and stuff. I also do tons of platform drops so I love having platforms

Ps2- so far I've been liking this stage the most, It's always been my 2nd fav and so far it suits Diddy enough to play whatever style he wants and the bottom blastzones seem to be deep enough to allow him to get full charges on recoveries most often as well as the upper blastzones allow Up-throw Kills to work easy enough

Smashville- I've always sort of disliked this stage in a weird way, something about it just feels like it's too small or something. Idk how deep it's blastzones or w/e are though, which is probably always for the better for a diddy stage.

FD- seems decent, he probably benefits from it slightly more than certain other chars.

Dreamland- seems decent also, but I think other chars might benefit more from it than he does: idk. Maybe the opponent gets TOO much space to work with his banana game, but then again he needs quiet a bit of room to get off some of his peanut waveland game as well.

Yoshis Island (Brawl): Seems like it has potential to be good, It also doesn't have the weird thing anymore from Brawl where it would usually explode his up-b and kill you if you didn't aim at the ledge perfectly (I think Guru said that, i forget).

Yoshis Island Melee: I hate this stage in P:M, in Melee it feels fine, but in P:M it feels inky dinky and the bottom blast zone isn't deep at all (if it was any higher you'd die when you'd spawn). I'm not sure if it's good for Diddy (maybe if you like a lot of smash attacks it can work out good).

Rumble falls: seems too big for what Diddy requires, it's like dreamland but probably even more space. Frankly it probably would bore the Diddy to death too if he wasn't already losing, I don't think Diddy can camp on it as well as he probably could on even smaller stages (maybe cus of the platform positions? idk).

Warioware- no freaking clue, he does get the benefit of wall cling though (there's a sheik video demonstrating some wall cling recovery stuff, where she also utilizied her reverse needle cancel, which we can basically do with peanut cancel although it's slower)


Jab Discussion:
After his first two hits, if the person CCs the second or w/e then they can usually hit you before you do the third (you usually have to implement something different even though you got technically what's considered a gentlement which seems slightly less safe than the actual one of CF's, here's a bad example of not going with the third jab and instead something safer http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ChUsaNlLAo4#t=10s )
Guru has mentioned this, and he suggests D-tilt/grab in his thread: I believe those two options still aren't guaranteed or anything. The best thing might be to run away and then do a side-b or w/e.

OOS options Discussion:
I've found that Side-b OOS (through a DJ) is useful

 

[Coastward]

so many diddy techniques that i did not know about, thank you based smashboards.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Imo, all these stages are good for diddy, but require different strategies or play when it comes to the size of the stages

 

[SpiderMad]

What stage is he not good on then? You need to go into details man, explain all the play styles and how they work and what characters they don't work towards and stuff.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

What stage is he not good on then? You need to go into details man, explain all the play styles and how they work and what characters they don't work towards and stuff.

I haven't delved into the game with diddy that hard yet. Honestly, my advice is subjective. I don't know that much about melee or project M, I just try to play off of my gut. And anything else that I consider base knowledge is from the thinking processes of brawl. If I tried explaining things, itd probably rambling because of how I see this character. But I can try, for the sake of my kong brothers.

Basically the way I see it, diddy is successful on most every tournament legal stage. Depending on how you as the player play, it might be harder to net a win on different stages. Like, I for one, have a lot of bad luck on smaller stages. Green hill, yoshis melee, stuff like that. I'm not an extremely consistent player when it comes to being on top of the opponent in closed spaces, and it gets me wrecked every so often. Doesn't mean I think it's bad stages for diddy, I see how it can go his way. More nair usage and the "just throw out hitboxes" approach can get you a good footing.

On smashville type stages, play classic brawl diddy. Hit and run. Bombard the opponent with nanas and peanuts and bait an approach move, or alternatively bombard and then go for your own read. When you have the upper hand, get your hits but don't get greedy. If you only got one hit out of the whole exchange, great. Rinse and repeat the process until you get your kill opportunity.

Bigger stages should be monkey heaven for you. Opponents get bananas yes. But this is not the stages problem. As diddy, you should get on top of how to play when opponents have your bananas. You have an instant throw AGT that is GREAT for when things are thrown at you. Practice that stuff. Otherwise, a lot of in and out type of approaches can benefit diddy to net a lead and then after that the match should roll smoothly along.

Platform heavy stages can either help or harm you. But wave dashing and wave landing on the platforms whenever possible for your movement as the match progresses can cause your opponent to get flustered since they don't know when the attack is coming and they sure don't wanna get hit. Diddy really benefits off of this kinda stuff, anything that gets the opponent flustered means you gain control of the matches pace.

 

[SpiderMad]

Disqo, what 2 stages (TX uses the ban 2 stage for CP rule-set right?) do you ban against different players/characters?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I try to ban warioware and dreamland/metal cavern. Really, the only stage I feel is super awkward for diddy is wario ware. Dreamland prevents upthrow kills. Metal cavern isn't bad, but I'm just not comfortable on it when I'm panicked or rushed. In all reality, I bet warioware isn't bad or anything, the more I play on it intentionally, the better I'll feel.

 

[SpiderMad]

hmm with DL, you might be right about needing up-throw kills, but I thought his recovery can be used to his max potential there unlike a lot of other characters. It's probably not worth it against characters with decent recoveries.

I can't decide if WW is good for his banana game, you get more platforms to AGT it off of but the more platforms there are the less you're going to get slips/forced slips. The pillared platforms do I think seem to accentuate his Nair though, with it able to cover so much of them.

I've never been fond of small stages like MC and Yoshis (Melee) just out of how you can get janked as well as be jank for kills on the small/weird blastzones.


Also this video shows something characters with shines or AD cancels can use our items against us for as well as other characters with items.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87G-nPP4Njo
It also shows at the end WJ wavebounce Peanut gun to AGT banana, which is hard to perform (I find WJ wavebounce banana pull much easier to do atm, which I can do constantly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR1DtS2hDo4 )

I've tried a lot of the WJ/WJ wavebounce stuff now, and I think we might be missing a few of the Brawl Diddy techniques they use to have since the gravity is now too high for re-catching on specific ATs they use to have. I'm still searching for the best way to get bananas though, and I think WJ to something something or whatever can lead to a good Diddy stapple of getting bananas on the ledge but possibly not. We DO have the option now to Wavebounce the nanner pull though which Brawl didn't have.

Do any other characters have a decent Glide toss (grounded AGT) distance like Diddy in P:M? In Brawl other characters had HUGE ones like MK, but now in P:M Diddy is gifted with being the only one to really have a good one. Other characters I've tried so far will just move a very small distance from their Glide toss: on the other hand though I don't think Diddy comes near to having the best AGT momentum distance in P:M.
Mk's glidetoss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nd1WD5NYfPo#t=88s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F8wwr693KDo#t=38s
Diddy ledge banana WJ stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F8wwr693KDo#t=153s

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Peach has our glidetoss. Other than that, I'm not sure. Djc throws do the same thing as a gludetoss basically, so yikes on that.

I been experimenting with dash attack. And so far I'm starting to think that the timing of when the attack hits will lead to various other moves at different percents. For example, the ending hitbox could lead to an quick UpB or uair. The starting hit box can lead to a nair or quick reverse fair. I'm not sure how guaranteed these are, but keep it mind

 

[SpiderMad]

Peach has our glidetoss. Other than that, I'm not sure. Djc throws do the same thing as a gludetoss basically, so yikes on that.

I been experimenting with dash attack. And so far I'm starting to think that the timing of when the attack hits will lead to various other moves at different percents. For example, the ending hitbox could lead to an quick UpB or uair. The starting hit box can lead to a nair or quick reverse fair. I'm not sure how guaranteed these are, but keep it mind

I was watching Jc's stream, seems Rob also has a good one too (unless it was a JC and not a GT): so that makes Diddy, Peach, and Rob the only ones to have good glide tosses? I think you might be mistaken when you talk about DJC throws though, in P:M: I don't think anyone gets much distance unlike in Brawl (I could be wrong) besides Ike obviously using it out of QD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMJrlWLC2bA

Is this just a GT or something different? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GafEOWOxUw4

You're saying the dash attack leads to different things based on the ending being weaker? I don't fully get it.

EDIT: Luigi has a crazy GT as well, I'm guessing all the low traction characters must then.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

The Ike in brawl, that's boost throwing. Basically a jump canceled smash canceled throw. Link was known for it in brawl. I think other chars might and will have good glide tosses, but I don't really see it being a threat unless it's our distance or farther, and even then, it'll depend on the character.

My theory on dash attack iscas follows. Since, in brawl, Diddys dash attack hit three times, and each hit had small differences in what part hit the opponent, that PM still shares some properties of his brawl one.
For example: Diddys DA is a 'sex kick'. It stays active until it either ends or comes into contact with something. The animation continues until it's end, with or without the hit box. My theory from some observation and small experimentation is that depending on what time DA hits the opponent, the follow ups will be slightly different if any. And since the beginning of DA seems like a harder KB hit than the ending, depending on a situation, you could, in theory, plan when to hit an opponent with a certain part of DA and come out with an optimal result.

Sheesh. One handed typing is the pits.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Got 3rd at tourney this weekend. I did brawl diddy stuff to all the melee people, it was great. Videos to come soon

 

[hamyojo]

Got 3rd at tourney this weekend. I did brawl diddy stuff to all the melee people, it was great. Videos to come soon

Peanuts don't work against Fox.
Lasers too good.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Peanuts don't work against Fox.
Lasers too good.

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU STUPID LAZORS BY FAUX KILL PEENUTZ

 

[hamyojo]

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU STUPID LAZORS BY FAUX KILL PEENUTZ

LAZRS2GUD #DROPDIDDY

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Pick ahp faux? Nuuuuuu.

 

[SpiderMad]

I remember we had a data thread by someone on Smashmods of 2.1's characters attributes, some kind person needs to make a new list of updated (for ppl like Ike) and added characters. Also for Gurukid to add damages to his hitbox thread.

Anyways so yeah, apparently Diddy is "easy to combo" with the exception that he has quick combo breaker aerials only seen in floaties (Luigi/Peach). If he's combo fodder though, that adds a +1 to making people enjoy fighting him: but his shenanigans still add a lot of annoyance apparently. Ike is the ultimate combo fodder though so at least Diddys not him.
http://mibpaste.com/wDDlbW

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Psh **** that. If diddy is combo food, you better make em work for that ****in combo. Catch me if you can sucka.

 

[SpiderMad]

I said he apparently is said to be

 

[tripwire]

I'm back to playing PM guys seems I've missed a lot of Diddy tech discussion :/

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Got 5th at tourament Saturday. Could have gotten farther but I underestimated the player and got prideful, which cost me the set. Almost beat sethlon game three too, but he read my horrible choice of options and I lost my monster lead. Learned a lot, in game and out. Glad to see improvement so early in my PM gameplay. Videos to come soon.

 

[tripwire]

Thanks for the Frame Data Hamlin. I appreciate it. So far from watching videos I personally think I have the most "nanna" usage with Diddy Kong. I'm entering a tourney today and saturday and I'm reppin Didds the whole time.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

The most banana usage eh? Anxious to see what you do, fellow Kong brethren. Make Africa proud.

 

[tripwire]

I ****in spammed nanners till GF got wrecked. Rat reset the bracket so i switched to marth and won the tourney. When i get nervous i spam nannas. I really got alot to work on.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Videosssssssss

 

[Seagull Joe]

I feel like stages that are too big are not that good for . I main / in PM lol.

You shield too much Disqo. You also don't use enough side b kick flip or Fair. This is my critique based on seeing you vs Sethlon's .

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I feel like stages that are too big are not that good for . I main / in PM lol.

You shield too much Disqo. You also don't use enough side b kick flip or Fair. This is my critique based on seeing you vs Sethlon's .

Sethlon WRECKS side B. Ive used it so much during my learning phase that it's becoming predictable, whether it's kick or grab. I agree, I need to work in Fair. Ya got any videos?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'll go to Xanadu today to play (Hopefully if I'm not too tired). I do not have any videos yet.

I have not been playing PM too long, but I'm pretty good at it through knowing certain mechanics of smash (I'm a brawl player who mainly focuses on baiting his opponent and shielding as little as possible, but I do not throw out kill moves unless I know it confirms).

I need more time to actually play the game thoroughly because I definitely understand how to kill/approach/combo, but I do not fully know the uses of Nair/Uthrow/Dthrow other then that Uthrow kills most characters at about 160% (Useful since isn't exactly a character you should be fishing for kills with).

And 's DA sucks.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I know who you are seagull. I played brawl and have seen you play. You teamed with denti at some tourney, I forget which one.

The good thing about playing diddy with a brawl background is that you can definitely gain a lot of solid ground in match from baiting, since in melee/PM it seems that throwing out hitboxes whenever possible can be bad or good, and because the way diddy combos and approaches, he gets the best out of both baiting and just randomly throwing out attacks to start combos.

Nair, for example, is your "just throw it out" move. Good priority, super fast, sex kick, no hit box on the ending animation though, and not exactly safe on shield, but fantastic for anti air, tech chases, and combos. Nair is your go to move, along with moderate side B usage.

UThrow kills. Chains spacies at low percents twice or three times.

Dthrow is a tech chase opportunity. Awkward to get used to. I don't know the variables enough to tell you exactly, but it's better than Brawl Dthrow.

DA sucks compared to brawl. But it's not useless, and I'm starting to implement it as best as I can. Vro uses DA well, and DA offstage/off platforms isn't horrible either. Play with it some.

Hope to see some awesome videos

 

[Seagull Joe]

I teamed with him at Apex 2012.

I'll experiment today at Xanadu with my .I decided to go so if you watch the stream you will probably catch me.

As I continue to get older, I keep getting attracted to even more hobbies. Now it's up to Brawl, Project M, and Yugioh lol. Brawl will always come first though.

I have a full time career as a teacher, going to graduate school at the moment, play 2-3 games competitively, a girlfriend, and multiple friends. What more could I ask for? I wish I knew.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I wish for super powers.

Just me tho.


Aaaaaalrighty then.
So.
Watched the Xanadu stream. And I was kinda shocked.
Just about everyone complained about everything. Snakes not even that good, but the lack of knowledge about snake got everyone wrecked. But that's a whole different topic.
Looks like, contrarily, you have much to learn about diddy. Sooooo. Maybe you should take a crack at those videos again hmm?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I lack knowledge about every character because I don't know what all of them can do. I knew how to beat Jcaesar's because I know how plays in Melee and Brawl. When I have played versus every character, I'll have a better understanding of the game. Complaining is necessary when some characters get ridiculous buffs.

There is also 0 reason should get an auto trap from just planting a down smash at an edge. There is 0 ways around that if you're recovering.

I learned more from playing Jcaesar's then watching the videos here.

 

[Oracle]

that's pretty funny lol learning from jcaesar rather than the good players who, you know, actually main diddy

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol snake isn't ridiculous. But like you said, more play and you'll be fine. So since ya know, you're learning more from JC, guess you won't need to post here since we won't be of any help.
Actually, since you're already at such a higher level and learning from better people like JC, you should be teaching us.
Diddy boards closed guys.
Seagul Pelican Wave bird Boards open today.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Godlike.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Honestly, you might wanna just stay playing brawl.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I am because I realized I literally cannot powershield in brawl if I switch over from PM. I have no idea why it affects my ability to PS so much.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Yup. Well see ya. Thanks for trying.

 

[SpiderMad]

Well pm has powershielding buffer removed, besides the obvious light press to trigger.shield