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Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

SpiderMad

SpiderMad

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AbstractLogic said:
challenge accepted. I was gonna wait and capture this with my card and edit it, but it's a Spidermad challenge so I figured I'd upload it in his style. I can put creed over it if you'd like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4vXPpNObw

Can I be put under Top Diddy players now please?
Click to expand...
Lol creed is literally the best out of all the horrible youtube audio swaps, did you download a brstm pack for that Perfect Dark song?
You look to be the chosen one to make history and spend the last couple seconds of a time-out stalling with that.
to be top though I dare you to do the Ledge WJ Wavebounce Peanut gun to AD cancel AGT banana (in any direction, it just has to be thrown before touching the ground. It's also slightly easier with the AD cancel being sooner in 2.6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=87G-nPP4Njo#t=72
Actually also try to see if it's possible to instead AGT the spawned peanut from the shot like you would with what ThatGuy did. I'm not sure if the wavebounce gives you enough momentum to reach it
 
AbstractLogic

AbstractLogic

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I'll go for it. I'm gonna upload a compilation of AGT'ing under EVERY stage. I already have replays of every one but norfair... That one is something else.

And also, no I made the brstm myself. I have a custom soundtrack that I've done that I haven't got around to uploading.
 
ThatGuyYouMightKnow

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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Damn the good Diddys make mine look ******** Lol. I'm still having a hard time getting used to melee mechanics and I'm not playing smart enough. Need more practice.

Feels like I have a tendency to shield as much as possible. I know shielding that much in melee is bad because pressure is much better and shield recovery is much higher, so that's one reason I get smacked. I need more spaced bairs and patience.
 
DiSQO_BuNNY

DiSQO_BuNNY

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He needs his upB start up frames back. He can have the landing lag since people will complain, though it was never safe in the first place. SideB is fine the way it is. Dash attack needs massive help. Diddy needs a real edgegaurd move, uair is almost viable. That's all I can think of. Diddy will never be good the way he's designed, even with buffs, unless they made him ivysaur status. Hate it.
 
Soft Serve

Soft Serve

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I agree that edge guarding can be a pain. It honestly feels all I can do is pester them with peanuts and bananas as they try to recover, then hope to ledge hog or punish a non-sweet spotted recovery. Edgeguarding Ivy in particular just feels like all I'm doing is racking some damage up on her while she tethers the ledge for free.
 
AbstractLogic

AbstractLogic

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I actually got 2 pretty sick edgeguards on an Ivy in tournament these last two weeks. If you read a tether run off up air really can be viable but it isn't amazing by any means. It seems like the best method of active edgeguarding is D-Tilt for space type linear recoveries and then FF'd Dash Attack for those that like to recover low. (Link Falcon sometimes it works on tethers if they don't snap) I REALLY don't think he loses the Ivy matchup btw
 
ThatGuyYouMightKnow

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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Wait, we're suggesting upb BUFFS? I was hoping they would nerf it soon lol

I feel like he's a char with properties that make him unable to be not-good, but takes mastery of where to be and (what to place where) to be at the level of others now. He took no skill in B+ and he had stupid **** in vBrawl that made him real dum.

But like someone once said, having no real advantage over others when it comes to naner usage does suck. With dash attack onstage nerfed to crap he doesn't really have anything over anyone if they decide to AGT re throw it at him (White-Peach did this to me a lot, it really messed me up good until I adjusted to rethrowing her rethrows ) or just wave dash and deny you. This is why I'm trying to be a little more passive with my naners.

Then again Peach doesn't have any real advantage over anyone if they do the same with her turnips, so I shouldn't be complaining.
 
AbstractLogic

AbstractLogic

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Well as far a Diddy Tricks that somebody WILL tell you. Try using a peanut right after the Diddy Hump slap. It hits most of the cast for free and if you have a nanner can guarantee another hit. It's an easy way to get a free 25ish %. Apparently on middleweights you can also get a free JC grab out of a Diddy Hump.
 
Nausicaa

Nausicaa

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Diddy has a DD to die from.
Abuse that alone, and he's fine. The Banana's and tricks don't break him. It's that stupid DD.

There isn't nearly enough punish-game flushed out by almost anyone I've seen. Anyone know of a video with someone who has a good punish game with this guy? So far everyone I've seen just looks confused. haha
 
Arcalyth

Arcalyth

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Nausicaa said:
Diddy has a DD to die from.
Abuse that alone, and he's fine. The Banana's and tricks don't break him. It's that stupid DD.

There isn't nearly enough punish-game flushed out by almost anyone I've seen. Anyone know of a video with someone who has a good punish game with this guy? So far everyone I've seen just looks confused. haha
Click to expand...
I mean, it seems like everything combos into everything, and bananas combo into everything...
we need more gimp setups into up-b though. Vro is pretty good at it but idk how much has changed since he played Diddy
 
AbstractLogic

AbstractLogic

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Nausicaa said:
Diddy has a DD to die from.
Abuse that alone, and he's fine. The Banana's and tricks don't break him. It's that stupid DD.

There isn't nearly enough punish-game flushed out by almost anyone I've seen. Anyone know of a video with someone who has a good punish game with this guy? So far everyone I've seen just looks confused. haha
Click to expand...

Not to seem mean, but do you have any suggestions for punishes? often times I find I'm never certain on whether or not to do DD grab regrab stuff, or nanner tech chases, or up air juggling etc. I completely agree with your sentiments though his DD and mobility can be pretty insane when pushed.
 
Nausicaa

Nausicaa

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I'm not even too certain on the optimal punish stuff. He's like Shiek/Mario/Pika/Sonic. There's a LOT of overlap of things that are 'good' so if there is a selection of option, there's a LOT that's worth doing and won't turn out poorly, so a lot of it for sure comes down to resets and playing the mind-match-up rather than the char-match-up.
His ToD's will for sure be Fox-style when they flush out. You won't kill people without at least a reset, if it's something outside of gimps. So simple efficient combos that lead to a B-air/F-air/D-air on the stage > tech-chase or reset to a Re-Grab are likely the best routes, and from there, tech-chasing if possible to line up either another F-air or a D-Smash and working the off-stage game.

That, at least, has been the most stable BnB for punishing I've both seen and applied with Diddy. Anything that tries to combo people to oblivion has the same issues as Mario/Sheik, it just leads to a positioning that doesn't benefit you much, outside of giving the opponent more damage. The opponent left with a lot of damage leaves very little room for combos into finishers/better positioning after the reset, which Diddy/etc NEEDS to abuse since it's his strength.

tl;dr = Reset at low %, don't finish your combo will something that won't give you amazing positioning either off-stage or a free pressure/reset opportunity, and finish combos early in favor of positioning over damage, with simple D-Throw > D-Smash sometimes even at mid-%, rather than liking chains of hits up platforms etc. Flexibility is easier to work with when you have positioning, and plays no factor when you have a % lead.
 
Nausicaa

Nausicaa

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People intuitively inevitably will gravitate towards the end-meta whether it's a conscious action or not.
You could probably find 1 million + posts of mine discussing this, but again... become aware of what you're doing, that is above all else in terms of significance when it comes to having optimal improvement AND fun with the game. Don't try and doing anything outside of be aware of what you're doing, and you'll find every little nuance that you and the entire community collectively has, and if you simply trust that you will adjust yourself accordingly (which why in the world wouldn't you? If you became aware of every action you did, and realized some things you did weren't what you really 'want' to do, even without 'trying' to change them, you naturally will, simply because you're aware of them at last)...
Then you'll break both your own personal meta-game as well as the current global perception of it.

tl;dr to my normal rant-thing...
Keep working with what you JUST mentioned there. Be aware of your mind-set, watch for what you're drifting to, meaning watch what you're doing NOW, and where it's going. So that when something DOES change within your play, you notice it.
That's all. Don't 'try' and do anything differently, the ONLY thing to 'do' differently, is to pay more and more attention to what you're doing. You'll naturally, inevitably, gravitate to what's BEST for you, because unconsciously or not, that's where you 'want' to go with the game.

Hope that makes sense.
 
AbstractLogic

AbstractLogic

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I appreciate the sage like wisdom. I strive to keep pushing the monkey because he's so fun to play. I think his biggest problem is having so many good options which can leave situations more or less ambiguous on what to do.
 
Nausicaa

Nausicaa

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Exactly^
Hence it will be a long-drawn-meta-game-development, and the quickest way to propel that along as a community as well as individually, will be to simply work with awareness.
What better way to filter (or more like comprehend and apply the dynamics of) through ambiguous and abundant options, then to simply trust in the phrase "I would naturally gravtiate towards doing what's best if I knew what I was doing"
Hence figuring out what you're doing... AKA ACTUALLY being present with your own decision making, and making sure they're always concious actions, will be the best way to improve your decision making.

lol Monkeying around with the mind always comes before matter.
 
DiSQO_BuNNY

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Bait and punish is for brawl. It only goes so far in PM with Diddy. There's only so much reward we can reap from our most advantageous situations. Everything ends in a reset. A tournament set of constant resets doesn't do enough to consistently perform well when we have to deal with true combos and throws that get us wrecked no matter where we DI. SideB is no longer a threat, in fact, it becomes more of a risk to diddy to do it because of the sheer lack of reward we get from landing it in the first place. Not to mention how badly it gets beat out now. Diddy has trouble landing hard damage in a short amount of time, something NO other character has an issue with. Taking the time to condition your opponent and land our resets gives the other char the chance make a read or land a lucky hit, and diddy has already been put at a disadvantage. This character is not worth the time, or the massive "outplaying" required to be considered a danger to any one of the cast.
 
Nausicaa

Nausicaa

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SideB is no longer a threat, in fact, it becomes more of a risk to diddy to do it because of the sheer lack of reward we get from landing it in the first place.Not to mention how badly it gets beat out now.
You obviously have never heard of Dash-Dance. There's a reason Falcon doesn't use Side-B either.
Diddy has trouble landing hard damage in a short amount of time, something NO other character has an issue with. Taking the time to condition your opponent and land our resets gives the other char the chance.
You obviously have never heard of Sonic, Squirtle, Pikachu, lots of the characters. Diddy has it easy.

Throw people towards the edge of a stage, and abuse the fact that you have the resources to end a stock without losing the advantage.
If it hasn't been mentioned yet...
That DD!!!

Edit: It's good that Diddy can actually be punished decently off connected hits, given how hard he is to hit. lol
He would be stupid good otherwise.
 
DiSQO_BuNNY

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Are you kidding me!? All those characters have options that diddy still doesn't have. All the chars you just mentioned have tools they benefit from better than diddy does from DD and "throwing people offstage". As one of the top diddy players(apparently) and a huge fanboy of the Kong himself, I strongly think he needs to be reworked again, because he is god awful and takes a huge amount of work and MU experience to be average. I'm not asking for outrageous buffs, but at least give diddy something to work with more than "DD and throwing people offstage", because that is an extremely weak foundation for a character to be based off of.

And for the record, Falcon does use SideB, its still safer than diddys SideB, and it still yields more reward.
 
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