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Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

DiSQO_BuNNY

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DisqoBunny
You try. So hard.


Diddy is still pretty bad in comparison to most of the cast. People think he's good because you can play him in such an annoying and frustrating way, but its not enough to call him good when we've got Mario/ness/Lucas/squirtle/ivysaur/Zelda/toonlink/sheik running around doing our exact gameplay and more, and getting a massive amount of reward for it.

Doesn't matter tho, cuz nobody really gets it I guess. I'm just saying, Diddy is "good", but compared to our current cast, he pales in comparison
 

Arcalyth

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you don't even know how to AGT
how can you say he's not good when you can't use one of his fundamental tools?
 

Oracle

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diddy is pretty terrible in comparison to other characters like ivy or falco who can camp better and get better rewards off of their projectiles, grabs, and hits. he isn't useless, but theres very little reason to play him over those other chars
 

Nausicaa

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I love how there's an abundance of Diddy, Ness, Squirtle, Zelda, TL, etc (HALF THE CAST) players all saying their own character needs buffs to work.
Game is hard.

Edit: Fox needs more people complaining about him being bad.
 

Oracle

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if diddy is so goddamn good then why don't you start winning tournaments with him

jesus christ you are annoying. if you have actual evidence or something we missed about the character then feel free to share, but if you're just gonna post another stupid, condescending pseudophilosophical bull**** post about why you have some insight that the actual good players of this game don't, then please just stop talking
 

SpiderMad

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I'm going to include 2.6b Diddy for you guys on my SD card I prepared for the 2.5 Ike believers for when I play them in any tournies, it's just the normal latest P:M build...with the Ike.pac switched to 2.5's =)
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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you don't even know how to AGT
how can you say he's not good when you can't use one of his fundamental tools?
Lmao for one, Agt isn't "fundamental" to diddy. A fundamental is like agt recovery with tl, or shine combos with falco.

For two, idgaf whether you listen to me or not. I'm a threat in this game to melee vet players and more because I'm a smart player. I've never touched melee a day in my life, yet I can still give much "better" players than me a run for their money with a character worse than theirs, and they know the char is bad.
**** dude, MM me at Apex if you're just the grandmaster Kong.
 

Nausicaa

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Double Post because I'm awesome.

Here's the initial post that awoke this half-dead thread about Diddy development/community forum discussion.
Implying everything from process-style stock-elimination, zoning and camping, patient play of using his utility over decent duration to work, and essentially everything that has been mentioned in the last 3 pages summarized ahead of time.
To add to that, in the form of a tl;dr even FURTHER.

Phase 1
- DD with a Banana
Phase 2
- ????
Phase 3
- PROFIT!!!

Diddy can't ToD of a single hit, if you want that, play Falcon.
Diddy can't force openings with excessive pressure, see Lucas.
Diddy can't instant-gimp off a single hit, play Dedede instead.
If you want any of that, go play another character.

What CAN Diddy do?
It's not safe to just jump in and attempt committing hard pressure on a 'camping' Diddy when the chance is there, unlike the way Falcon can be pressured if he's cornered/caught out from the camping. He has GTFO options to at least some extent to work with, diverse and fast hard-hit-boxes at least exist with him. Same goes for something he has over Lucas to a decent extent. It's easier to pin either of them, or catch them out of their camping/pressure do to needing space if they're not on the offensive. It's not effective to keep Diddy at a great distance since he has free tools that come into play that can give him a decent edge, even slight edges. He likes room to work with, so running from him and putting him on the chasing end won't work like it does against a Dedede. Even a Lucas or Falcon can be held and zoned to some extent of gaining an advantage over them in the form of cornering them/forcing them to act.

What do you do then?

Banana-Dash.
Just grab a banana, dash back and forth. Don't DO anything. Don't run, don't attack, don't do ANYTHING.
Guaranteed, if you just DD with a Banana in-hand, you'll get a free hit. It doesn't matter how hard, you're not going to ToD them, nor instant-kill them when an advantage is gained, nor will you be able to force an opening raw from neutral. Instead, B-DD, in front of them. Jumping on Diddy DDing with a Banana? That's a risk they can take. Running from a B-DDing Diddy? They could try, risking losing positioning could be worth it. Zoning a B-DDing Diddy out? Good luck, any mild-commitment is a mix-up at no prior circumstance/factor for the monkey.

B-DD all day. Like a Pika or Sonic, stop trying to do stuff, and just let stuff happen for you but being a threat to approach without ever doing it. Free-hits will come if you're just there, because you CAN be there, without risk, without committing, without being out of position to get hits if they show up, and you can still get the hits. Diddy on the other hand... gets a Banana too!
It's cool how those characters are 'garbage-tier' in this game too...

That's my random-*** conclusion tl;dr that the last 3 pages have described as a direction for Diddy. Take what you want from it, a lot was already posted by OTHERS in this thread recently.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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You are literally like, the best player ever, like dude. Why didn't I think of DDing with a banana all game long while ivysaur, Zelda, snake, fox, falco, wolf, Mario, Luigi, wario, charizard, squirtle, link toon link, sheik, lucario, DDD, gnw, zss, falcon, marth, ike, Lucas, and ness cower in fear because they don't have monster combos/better projectile/huge active hit boxes.

Are you ****in kidding me dude? Who do you play? How can you sit there on your pedestal of all knowing diddy and fighting game knowledge and NOT see that this character actually needs help. He literally needs a small bit of reward or something to make him average. This game is not built to get chip damage, and all the patience in the world can't net you any real damage compared to the one mistake it takes to give diddy hell.

****in, upload some replays. Gimme some tourney results. Do something that actually means something or just shut up. Your advice is unrealistic, naive, and just straight ass.
I'm glad you're all for developing the diddy metagame and whatnot, but open your eyes.
 

AbstractLogic

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Nausicaa I'm sure that you mean well and it's nice having someone put thought into the Tactical discussion of Diddy Kong. It can just seem disingenuous, naive, or even rude to people sometimes when you have advice with nothing to show for it. The reason people are getting frustrated is because they passionately care about the direction of this character and the overall balance of the cast. Players like Disqo and Oracle (and if I can include myself in there) have worked hard "in the field" if you will and found that while Diddy is very strong in certain aspects, he could certainly use a bit of help.

Don't get me wrong, Diddy is amazing in lots of regards. He has probably the most combined priority on his attacks, great mobility, a good option for stage control and even a pretty good projectile. The one thing he is missing that makes his matchups that much harder is reliable followups and kill setups. Never would I ask for a lolDown-throw-knee or some Dash Attack Solarbeam garbage. What is wanted with this character is at least the ability to followup up some of his moves that require commitment. Diddy is rewarded by position and damage, but once your opponent is at kill percentage, you are basically stuck with a relatively hard read or lolupthrow if they are a floaty.

Seriously think about this. If you get any of his throws, either Side-B, D-Tilt, Weak Nair, Dair, a banana throw, even a peanut shot at kill percentages and your opponent has any sense of competent DI you will NOT get a follow up. I can read my opponents DI like a book and still get nothing. Relying on my opponents lack of DI shouldn't be considered good design I'm sorry. This isn't necessarily terrible design, but when a great majority of the cast has ways of setting up for a kill that doesn't involve committing to something that could make you lose control of the match it becomes clear that perhaps he needs a bit of help. I don't think anyone is arguing for ToD combos on Diddy, but just SOME reward other than hoping your opponent does something dumb.

FWIW: B-DDing as you call it is a powerful neutral tool, and does take you surprisingly far in most matchups, but against someone like falco who has a gamebreaking way of controlling the stage it sorta falls apart.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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^ basically what I said, except I was a *****.
I really appreciate your thoughts on diddy nausica, but its clear that diddy does need help. He's unreliable, to the point where I'm nervous about picking him in tournament because of how bad the outcome could be.

LAB STUFF!: PROBABLY GUARANTEED DEATH COMBOS ON FAST FALLERS!!!!!!!

holy **** right? Diddy and guaranteed don't ever go together.
Spacies: from 0-uthrow-usmash-regrab-uthrow
The second throw is super DIable so either look for your chase option or do the following if you can:
Usmash-nairx2-fair or usmash-dair-nair-fair. Play around with this. I usually nair twice in the same jump, but you may have to adapt because the second nair will sometimes miss. Dair to falling nair is pretty sketchy and the timing is tight but this a huge reward because its basically the stock.

Falcon: uthrow-usmashx2-regrab-uthrow-nairx2/nair-fair/dair-nair-fair.
I haven't had falcon DI the second uthrow. Test it out. Same notes As above.

I haven't tested Lucas mk or anyone else that could get these, and I'd like to test replacing moves with sideB or peanut gun to see if we can either extend the combo or force a really reliable reset option. Also, I know we don't always get the grab from 0, so test out your followups from different Percents.

Another note: I'm just gonna call it an air reset. I noticed everyone double jumps a lot in the neutral or after they've been hit. We should think of this as an air reset, because that's a free banana or run in shield grab or whatever. And if we hit em offstage, that severely reduces their ability to get back. Falcos bait double jump a lot. Actively think of this. Just another aspect we can gain reward from. Jesus knows we need all the reward we can scrounge up
 

AbstractLogic

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I actually found for space animals you can do 3 U smashes to SH nair to SH fair and it basically sets up for an edge guard or a kill on most small stages. I've never tried doing the regrab instead...
 

Nausicaa

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lol you guys.
SO MUCH REPETITION!!!
I'm just trying to understand... so bear with me if you can for this AGAIN.

We're on the same page, again, just as you pointed out, again. (Thanks again for being on the same page, whether fully understood or not yet) If you think that last post of mine in any way implied 'everyone is doing it wrong' or 'this character is the best' then you're all (pea)Nuts and might want to read it again as if it was an anonymous person dropping-in on the conversation. lol
I simply would rather have a thread that will allow random people interested in Diddy to show up and actually GAIN SOMETHING from it, at least a little more than 'GTFO until patch-updates!'
By pointing out that it's more beneficial to discuss what he CAN do, along with what it 'seems' he can do, it's a lot more helpful than going on rants about how it's not really in anyone's best interest to try doing what he CAN'T do, and discuss only what he CAN'T do.
My first AND last posts are exactly the same for this reason. Both, got hated-on.

One of my GUESSES as to why it was all condescending...
Example: I'm pretty sure things like Falco > DDing is kind of a given, and there's no need to go into intricacies like that. I literally was going to post about Falco, and Ivy, among other things forcing this 'concept of play' being less-direct (all over the last post this stuff was gonna come up, but I wanted to tl;dr it), but you guys are smart enough to know better. You're NOT STUPID SO STOP THINKING AS IF THIS WAS EVER IMPLIED. Hence I didn't post anything ABOUT intricacies of obvious-crap-you-should-already-know-if-you-know-Diddy-at-all, where I have earlier in this thread for semantics purposes even, just like EVERYONE ELSE.
- I simply figured it would be condescending-sounding (You know, the thing I'm trying to NOT sound like) if I DID say OBVIOUS-AS-**** stuff as if I WAS implying you didn't know.
*Is apparently still trying to find the source of the condescending-sounding stuff.
You're stupid when it comes to reading-comprehension maybe, I'd say that much about many people when it comes to discussions. :p

Literally that last post is a summary of what everyone ELSE is describing as their experience. I just tl;dr'd it.
Even the posts following it talking about controlled resets... again... like what's so bad about my posts that they got hated on when everyone just repeats what I say after nearly motion for motion? lol

Catching Double-Jumps is probably the #1 thing commentators ever commented on about Axe as he was rising in Melee-ranks. He plays Pika, funny enough.
Disclaimer: Just saying it's a good example of why controlled process-stock-elimination is effective. Not saying you all suck and are noobs, or that Diddy is broken. lol

Edit: Spelling and disclaimer-related stuff.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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The reason I feel diddy needs help is because of how many resets aren't controlled that we still need to try and rely on. Its madness to expect diddy to rise up so much skill in order to beat the safe options the cast has, and gain minimum reward for maximum risk. The advancement of diddy is long and hard right now, to the point of him not being worth the 4 stocks for the match.

Also, I think spacies get enough time to crouch cancel the second upsmash
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Offstage peanut gun seems to be kinda funny and somewhat useful.

Also, banana down throw offstage/zdrop to sideB footstool if you can get it. Holy **** yeah

SUPER EDIT: BANANA PICK UP IN RUNNING JUMP!
pluck a banana. Its on the ground. Run and perform a jump cancel shield grab, however, press the jump slightly before the shield. Diddy will pick that ***** up like its nothing. Can also be done from standing.
Kinda hyped.

DOUBLE SUPER EDIT: forgot that the z button does all of that by itself. Carry on komrades. Nothing to see here
 

Nausicaa

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The reason I feel diddy needs help is because of how many resets aren't controlled that we still need to try and rely on. Its madness to expect diddy to rise up so much skill in order to beat the safe options the cast has, and gain minimum reward for maximum risk. The advancement of diddy is long and hard right now, to the point of him not being worth the 4 stocks for the match.
I was never implying that Diddy was going to rise up in ranks or anything either, but this goes back to what the last couple pages have discussed too.

Any risk he takes isn't going to give much reward, but it seems that (people and the character) not much risk HAS to be taken to GET some reward, regardless of how small it is. The speed, whatever range he has, with projectiles and a few simple smash-fundamental mix-ups (grabs vs hit-boxes), are making people gravitate to just hanging around and NOT taking risks, and yet still getting something from it. A character doesn't really have to force things to get hits if they have enough to make others want to commit to things. This leaves the opponent with all the risks and rewards to weigh in, where they're at risk to some extent if they don't go for something rewarding. Diddy, as far as what everyone is discussing in here as what works and what they're gravitating to, and what I'm trying to imply, is that sitting back and NOT over-committing to anything is what he 'can' rely on. Possibly all he can rely on. Hence more traps, more camps, more resets, are bound to come, and bound to bring more success than anything else.
Maybe 4 stocks worth. :/
I think so, but <THAT is the only personal opinion comes in. :D
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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you don't even know how to AGT
how can you say he's not good when you can't use one of his fundamental tools?
OMG lol the shots


Shoutouts to you getting no stream time Guy. I was looking forward to the new tricks!
Because I lost to Monkey's Falcon. Again. Lmao. I lose to chars no one SHOULD be losing to.

Just grab a banana, dash back and forth. Don't DO anything. Don't run, don't attack, don't do ANYTHING.
Despite all the talk above, this is good advice. Boss did this a lot, and he made it to GF against JCaesar just from tactical dashdancing. I need this kind of advice because I love to be aggressive with Diddy, but it just DOESN'T work vs some chars.

By the way, instant AGT rethrow is kinda ****in awesome.
It is, but it's hard. I don't do it consistently enough and I think I've been practicing AGT rethrow the most out of anything, but it's USEFUL. It eliminates the need to WD to pick up bananas if you need to get and throw it fast. Just remember to NEVER DO IT TOWARDS THE END OF THE STAGE if you really have to do it. You'll kill yourself. lol

I can do it off the ground easy. But LANDING and doing it? Doing the rethrow on a grounded banana while you're in the air? That **** is HARD.

And in other news, has anyone noticed Diddy has a superwavedash (similar to Samus) if you try to AGT or AGT rethrow in certain ways when the banana is on the ground? It just travels farther than WDs are supposed to, not a superzippylolslipandslide like Samus gets.
 

Nausicaa

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Because I lost to Monkey's Falcon. Again. Lmao. I lose to chars no one SHOULD be losing to.

Despite all the talk above, this is good advice.

I can do it off the ground easy. But LANDING and doing it? Doing the rethrow on a grounded banana while you're in the air? That **** is HARD.
Falcon is cheesy. It can be a chore fighting him if the player is even decently good at opportunistic camping. Silly character can make good players lose to raw-cheese and nothing else even.

I assume you meant something other than 'despite' as a word. The only reason the part you quoted was posted/was relevant was BECAUSE of the 'talk above' it. lol

True facts.
Something hilarious that can be done when there's a Banana on the ground near you.
Down-B to chuck a 2nd TOWARDS the opponent > AGT the Banana off the ground in an upward angle towards the one you just tossed > AGT the tossed one immediately (sometimes a DJ is needed to line it up).
Double Banana AGT approach. XD
I wouldn't doubt a 3rd could be done off one of them hitting the opponent (or their shield/swatted) and AGTing again. Too funny, and silly.
 

Nausicaa

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*sucks
Diddy is probably the most oddifying doubles character. Just makes a doubles match... different. :/
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Nausica do you actually have any replays or tourney results from your oh so sage like advice and insight? You basically post in every character board and say the same things about how there's so much untapped potential for characters people are struggling to play, but all I read from you is theory crafting.

Enlighten me. Please.
 

Nausicaa

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Silly Spider, tricks are for...

No need for crap like credentials. I'm more concerned with people getting good at getting good than winning simply because I can. That would be purposeless, and this should be obvious from my posts by now.
Might want to check your definition of theory-crafting.
Edit: That probably sounded really rude, but it wasn't meant to be. Still bad at that stuff/learning. <3

Re-phrased: I've done little to no theorizing in this thread to date. The closest thing related to it was how I gave suggestions based on what others (including you) have been theorizing in this thread. I wasn't involved until putting it all together as a collection of experiences, concepts, and directly-discussed material that everyone else provided, only to make sense of what everyone is experiencing, so they can better understand what they're going through and doing.
If you read back on every post since my first in this thread, you'll see this as the common and only theme in my posts.

If one of my posts is accurate, then leave it at that. There's no need for credentials or demonstrations if it's something that can simply be read and understood. Pretend it's your anonymous sub-conscious or something if my posts sound rude. lol
It would probably sound way less offensive if you pretended it was from a machine spewing your own insight back at you in different words and angles or something. As that's all it ever is.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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The only thing that annoys me is your need to put your two cents in about a character you don't seem to have experience playing vs anyone better than you. So for you to hop in, while we're desperately trying to make this indeed bad character work despite his flaws, find out he does need help after months and months of work and play, and say the things you say that discredits all our work to rubble on the basis that "we aren't just playing hard enough" is absolutely unsettling.
If you had credentials or even the slightest form of any proof that you play this character and can stand in a position to say that us diddys aren't doing the right thing, I'd be less miffed by your posts.
But you don't. And I am. Theory crafting with experience is totally different than looking at what can be done and assuming that it will be done.

I really want to advance diddy. But every time you post, I wanna punch a cactus. Just, like, try to realize where you are, who you're addressing, how you might come off when basically trampling our hard work.
 

Nausicaa

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That's where things seem to get misinterpreted. You could look at the initial post (2) that I made here to re-ignite this half dead thread, and how it talks about the same things it's saying now. Not that the character is better than anyone thinks, but the punishment game seems to be where he has difficulty, and everyone is gravitating to getting a few controlled resets in instead of ToD's, a saying how it would be more beneficial explore this than to try and figure out how to do what everyone so far knows he can't do.
Behold, that's exactly where everybody went with the conversation, aside from random off-spurts about condescending stuff that somehow stemmed from the 2 posts I made that everyone just kept repeating and quoting in agreement over and over. lol

I know what you mean. It can be way too easy to that things pretty personally-offensive when it comes from a random stranger without a background, for discussion and insight to actually be worth giving. Though I'd rather have my posts be anonymous than have people be swayed even more by random-*** interpretations based on what they seen from me. Just the fact that what a person says can come across totally differently compared to another saying the EXACT thing shows how skewed it can be. I'm not a fan, hopefully people are ok with it, but these little fiasco's will always be, and I won't be swayed otherwise anytime soon.

LOL punching a cactus, that's a hardcore. I still don't know where I'm trampling stuff when all I've ever posted is actually in 100% support of whatever literally 100% of people have said. The ONLY difference, is I think Diddy will function in this game if people keep going in the direction they're going. Just like many other characters that lack direct-hard-simplicity or various cheese-that's-easy. Everyone is going more and more somewhere, all I want is that people go THERE, instead of... dead-ends. It's pretty obvious to see, and maybe I'm just pointing it out to bluntly as some people might just be seeing it.

In the end... Stuff like this ALL DAY EVERY DAY is what people should kind of expect playing a character like Diddy.
Another note: I'm just gonna call it an air reset. I noticed everyone double jumps a lot in the neutral or after they've been hit. We should think of this as an air reset, because that's a free banana or run in shield grab or whatever. And if we hit em offstage, that severely reduces their ability to get back. Falcos bait double jump a lot. Actively think of this. Just another aspect we can gain reward from. Jesus knows we need all the reward we can scrounge up
Slow and steady, with speed.
PS: When I play someone 'better' than me, usually it involves me playing a more developed and fundamental character so all gimmicks are left out, and all I get is raw Smash meta (usually Melee meta) to bring back to my region to benefit the others here. If I go to another region, there are very few 'better' than me to begin with, and going anything that can abuse lack of knowledge/combos/DI/options against people who are even decent at the game/around tourney-threat level, isn't going to help them either. :/
It's a tough game to balance in. lol half-jkz
Let's just keep 'advancing' Diddy, and I'll keep working on NOT trampling what anyone says. <3
In the meantime, try not to take anything I say as if it's 'against' what you've said, because really, next to nothing has actually been that way so far, and so much silliness has happened in this thread already somehow. It's the best we could have done up to now anyway.​
B-DD and let stuff happen. B-DD is the only position Diddy needs to get to, to get to work.
Very blunt, very lack-of-variables, but hopefully the idea/concept/direction of game-plan kind of gets across. As that's all that actually matters... the direction. Then we keep walking. :D
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Thats the thing though. Unless you get an easy bracket where people don't play chars that break diddy, it's not worth the effort to put the work in to play him in his current build. He's not reliable. He does a couple of things well, that's for sure, but there's just that piece of him that's missing.

Also, define "traveling to another region".
 

Nausicaa

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It kind of goes the other way with that too. I do really well with bizarre characters simply because it's easier to use gimmick-play against good players than it is to play raw-Smash. Diddy is no exception, as mentioned by others even, a lot of things 'shouldn't' work that currently do. This applies to 'better' players as much as anyone.
There's no way I would go Falco-Dittoing against a top 10 in the world Melee-Falco over playing Diddy vs them, if the intention was to win. Even if my Falco is more solid itself, there's enough cheese to throw out by playing Diddy that basically just spits in the face of meta-game and says 'your ignorance of knowledge and experiential nuances is your doom vs me' and that's just boring/lame/doesn't help anyone. lol
Hence Falco-Dittos are so much worth the time when playing good players is short-lived to a day/weekend. It was painful watching Hax get pestered by things because 'he doesn't know PM' in the last decent-size PM tourney he entered. Silliness hurts my soul, I don't support it and won't do it if I don't have to (so won't play Diddy over Falco).

There's still silliness that Diddy gets away with against other players that he shouldn't, and still silliness that Diddy players do that they shouldn't, and until this is very distinctly flushed out on any clear level, I'm not going to shun or praise this character's viability. That's all.


Edit: By other region it's like, NY vs Cal. Smaller scales, something like "More than a few hours of driving on highways between/outside/through cities/country/etc"
For me personally, it's up a mountain, down a valley, down a river, through a mountain pass, down some more mountains... and the nearest player who could beat me currently is probably 4 or so hours from me 1 way. Or a 1.5 hour plain trip or something. There's probably more than a few there right now too, which is cool, and I might be going there or somewhere else for Smash around Christmas since my family is going to Mexico and I'll have more-ish time to myself around then and it's fairly simple to travel to, but that depends how other Smashers are with the family-time-based holiday. haha



More on-topic

A piece of him that's missing is likely as far as I would go, and I think that's a great way of putting it. Only a piece though, not a fundamental thing missing that makes him not worth 4 stocks because it's so harmful to him being effective. lol

1) Piece that everyone here has discussed thoroughly, and I'm not sure I could ever elaborate on it enough, is the act of non-action. Being passive and near, Diddy is still threatening. Akin to Pika and Sonic, who people have been struggling severely with too. Trying to do too much has proven to both be ineffective in the game itself, as well the consistent game-plan across the player-base. Funny enough.

This is just something to be actively mindful for. (actively thinking of things like air resets, for instance) It's there, and fairly free, but not if there's a commitment to something, because commitment itself is what doesn't allow the opportunity at ALL.

2) For buffs/whatever, I've been trying to figure out how to insure Banana's don't screw Diddy over. Like...
There are some characters that have such defensive camping mobility, yet remain threatening, and during this, they can get a Banana fairly easily. The similar issue Marth has with Diddy/Pika/Sonic, is the issue Diddy/Pika/Sonic can have with Marth. Stale-mates in neutral, in a way.

There are some characters that can easily swat and catch Banana's in a single motion, or make great use of them if they ever get their hands on them. Marth again for an example, but classic stale-mate-pressure characters like Sheik/Pit can catch and use them well too.

What's the best way of stopping this? Say even, you lose a stock, they grab one waiting, and you don't catch them with offense immediately. So it's a reset to neutral, and they throw it at you.

I've been trying U-Tilt, and snagging one with Pivot U-Tilt is flashy, but tough to position well without being in danger, especially if they're aware of your ability to Pivot them, that it swats them, and they prepare for it (essentially talking developed-meta here)

F-Air/B-Air/other aerials are slow and committing. Doing things like that is what I want OPPONENTS to try when I throw it at them from Neutral, so I'd rather not do them AS Diddy.

I contemplated that replacing his U-Air (which I'm not a fan of) with some quick Tail-use attack that just taps the air in front of him lightly, would be a great counter-counter-Banana tool. Or even moving his N-Air to U-Air and making his N-Air a quick single spin like DK64 with his tail.

Otherwise, what's Diddy's counter-Banana meta-game like/where's it going?
 

Diddy Kong

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What do I hear here? Toon Link better than Diddy? I beg to differ!


Seriously though, I got nothing. Just be nice and **** to each other 'kay?

I always wanted Diddy to have more tail based moves to btw. Ever since DK64 I've wanted him to have a tail-based moveset, kinda what Mewtwo has now. Speaking of, I'd like it if Diddy had a U Air similar to Mewtwo. Perhaps with less knockback, and a little faster, but it would really help his range problem a little.
 

Nausicaa

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If someone posts in here and says they like U-Air, I'll accept that move. Otherwise, it's like... if it was almost anything else, I'd be happy too. It's there, and use-able by all means for hitting that area in some way, but making his N-Air that instead, and giving a DK64 tail-spin single-hit super-fast and weak N-Air, would be... nice.
 

Diddy Kong

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Range on the N-Air would be helpful I'd think. Diddy's tail is very long, it's weird he only uses it in that weird waggle move. While Fox and Yoshi DO attack with their stubby little tails. It makes no sence. U Air could have a second tailwhip hit on it to. Making it kinda like his current U Air, combined with Pika's, but in reverse. Down Smash also could have the tail added, with a mighty sweep-like attack with a knockback arc similar to Yoshi's Melee Down Smash?

Y'know, I like throwing ideas out cause I'm named after the character and everything.
 
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