ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
..i can only use Nair for jablocks...anything else I think I'll just stay away from until I see people doin stuff i like with it
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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
JMan8891
Halfrican-American
No, u has to implement it urself...
innovator is innovative*
innovator is innovative*
JayBee
Smash Champion
waiting to see what someone else does only makes it harder to find uses overall. practice and try new tihings shado. how do you figure my sonic is so different from yours?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I think people should record them selves playing, and literally count the amount of time they people with spindashes and miss aerial directly afterwards. which turns a 25% combo with a oppurtunity to follow up, into a 16% combo which leave both players at a neutral stance. Rarely, it even gives the opponent the advantageous position, if they can get below you fast enough.
I think people will be surprised at how much free damage they lose, ill be the first to admit, it pisses me off to no end how much I lose out on that I could be doing.
I think people will be surprised at how much free damage they lose, ill be the first to admit, it pisses me off to no end how much I lose out on that I could be doing.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Indeed, that used to be a problem with me for a while. but i can say taht was because i was moe focused on showing sonic's ground agiliy, ddp, etc for at least 6 months. good call Kid.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
Gah, I hate this so much. Ticks me off to no end playing on WiFi.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
back on topic, can you fall thru platforms, and nair people on that platform?
Kazz@
Smash Apprentice
You can sourspot it.
*thinks of sheild poking a dropdown nair into jablock*
*thinks of sheild poking a dropdown nair into jablock*
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I had the same thought actually, which is why i asked
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
Kojin we play different because you test alot of things out. Even when you're playing a serious match you sometimes use the things you are still testing and it goes bad for you.
I'm not that type of guy that likes to see what makes things tick. I use what I know works so when it comes time to use it I dont get boned by it later.
on another note i find myself foot stooling out of Spindash to a follow up spindash to aerial as a attack to their stand up and if the aerial misses id just put a spring between me and the opponent so they couldnt follow up after me. Speed really got me on the foot stool thing. But continuing the footstool like he does is kinda pointless to me even though it adds damage. Id rather be running on the ground to get that.
Back to the Nair possibilities. We already know Nair is a perfect set up for jab locks. I think he is trying to find more uses for the move. And i honestly can't see it being used for anything else. Its a bad move in my opinion. Kid that is a hot idea btw.
I'm not that type of guy that likes to see what makes things tick. I use what I know works so when it comes time to use it I dont get boned by it later.
on another note i find myself foot stooling out of Spindash to a follow up spindash to aerial as a attack to their stand up and if the aerial misses id just put a spring between me and the opponent so they couldnt follow up after me. Speed really got me on the foot stool thing. But continuing the footstool like he does is kinda pointless to me even though it adds damage. Id rather be running on the ground to get that.
Back to the Nair possibilities. We already know Nair is a perfect set up for jab locks. I think he is trying to find more uses for the move. And i honestly can't see it being used for anything else. Its a bad move in my opinion. Kid that is a hot idea btw.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
spring after spindash so the opponent cant follow you?
Are you talking about if you hit with the spindash and the aerial misses? or do you mean if the spindash is shielded/misses? In the latter case, any competant opponent can hit you before your aerial ends and you spring away. If you mean the former, most people I see just do a falling bair to cover their landing. which while effective, can be predictable and punished fairly easily.
Are you talking about if you hit with the spindash and the aerial misses? or do you mean if the spindash is shielded/misses? In the latter case, any competant opponent can hit you before your aerial ends and you spring away. If you mean the former, most people I see just do a falling bair to cover their landing. which while effective, can be predictable and punished fairly easily.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
I mean after I jump out of spindash and i miss them and they jump up. I just drop a spring on them >_>
You made it sound so complicated lol
You made it sound so complicated lol
JayBee
Smash Champion
i think at the very least, shado, you should try to use it more as shield pressure, especially on platforms stages like battle field, and the like, to increase the chance of landing jablocks. considering that these stages will always be played, the chances of getting this scenario is good. It's already happening to me against decent opponents...
Kinzer
Mammy
Nair shield-stabs people on platforms if their shield has already been slightly damaged to the point it doesn't cover their feet (whether angled or not, I'll leave that to you guys to decide).
Kuraudo
4Aerith
I checked the front page on the techs and the like, so unless I missed something here...
This ain't an advanced technique or another. More like something that Sonic players can use that I don't see enough of. You try and punish their attack lag with a grab or something. Case and point, Marth's FSmash. Shield it once and you've got them grabbed, or dash attacked or whatever. But the characters that are way faster... What about them?
I don't see enough SH-UAir out of shield. It's an amazing move, and a safer alternative to trying to buffer a grab on the delay on attacks, and more damage then just dash attacking through. Better yet, at high percents, a SH-UAir accomplishes the equivalent of an UThrow to set them up for either a spring chasing kill with another UAir, or maybe even that Back/Forward Air if they DI. I find it really good for the types of Sonic who play aggro.
Say for example, Snake's at high percent. 120/130% maybe? He tries to FTilt you or something. You shield that, but then use the SH-UAir out of your shield. Better range then trying to grab before Snake lands either another FTilt or a killing UTilt.
Shorter characters are tougher to hit with it, but nonetheless...
Why isn't anyone adding this to their game (I've been using it for a while)? Food for thought, Kojin. Look into the effectiveness of SH-UAir OOS. Just another option of many.
This ain't an advanced technique or another. More like something that Sonic players can use that I don't see enough of. You try and punish their attack lag with a grab or something. Case and point, Marth's FSmash. Shield it once and you've got them grabbed, or dash attacked or whatever. But the characters that are way faster... What about them?
I don't see enough SH-UAir out of shield. It's an amazing move, and a safer alternative to trying to buffer a grab on the delay on attacks, and more damage then just dash attacking through. Better yet, at high percents, a SH-UAir accomplishes the equivalent of an UThrow to set them up for either a spring chasing kill with another UAir, or maybe even that Back/Forward Air if they DI. I find it really good for the types of Sonic who play aggro.
Say for example, Snake's at high percent. 120/130% maybe? He tries to FTilt you or something. You shield that, but then use the SH-UAir out of your shield. Better range then trying to grab before Snake lands either another FTilt or a killing UTilt.
Shorter characters are tougher to hit with it, but nonetheless...
Why isn't anyone adding this to their game (I've been using it for a while)? Food for thought, Kojin. Look into the effectiveness of SH-UAir OOS. Just another option of many.
infomon
Smash Scientist
^^ agreed.
Or if you're fighting ROB, SH OoS Footstool > jablock
Or if you're fighting ROB, SH OoS Footstool > jablock
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Infzy, mah boi. That's enough of the Mexicans for you.
Browny
Smash Hater
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8459728&highlight=uair#post8459728
srsly though, that and dash attack. good stuff imo
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Dash attack is obvious. :D lol, never caught that. but good to see someone else utilizes it too.
Kinzer
Mammy
Is SH-Uair OoS ever utilized?
I'm not going to question my fellow Sonic mains, but there really isn't much documented about this... and I'm thinking it may have a little something to do with SH-Uair being difficult for people to implement if they have Tap-Jump on... and a majority of Sonic players appear to have the specified control scheme.
I'll tell you what: If this topic fires up some discussion, I'll consider about putting it into my game more... even though it's almost second nature for me to use Fair (if I were limited to aerials) OoS. :X
I'm not going to question my fellow Sonic mains, but there really isn't much documented about this... and I'm thinking it may have a little something to do with SH-Uair being difficult for people to implement if they have Tap-Jump on... and a majority of Sonic players appear to have the specified control scheme.
I'll tell you what: If this topic fires up some discussion, I'll consider about putting it into my game more... even though it's almost second nature for me to use Fair (if I were limited to aerials) OoS. :X
Kuraudo
4Aerith
On characters you can take advantage of in the air, such as Snake, ROB, Falco, etc.etc. the list goes on and on, SH-UAir OoS is very effective. At high percents, it's especially good for, as I said, popping an opponent up into the air for a set-up kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXC8AwdQKQo
Ignore the fact that this video of my Sonic is outdated compared to now, and skip to 0:42 of this video. I may have done this a couple more times in the video but I didn't bother to check.
Falco is literally right beside me, and the SH-UAir OoS caught him and pulled him in on the first hit, then sent him up on the second. It's got safer range then trying to punish with a grab on some into the Up Throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXC8AwdQKQo
Ignore the fact that this video of my Sonic is outdated compared to now, and skip to 0:42 of this video. I may have done this a couple more times in the video but I didn't bother to check.
Falco is literally right beside me, and the SH-UAir OoS caught him and pulled him in on the first hit, then sent him up on the second. It's got safer range then trying to punish with a grab on some into the Up Throw.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
When my vids from my mow recent tourney get up on youtube, Youll see me incorporating this a great deal, actually.
^^ agreed.
Or if you're fighting ROB, SH OoS Footstool > jablock
footstool jab locks only work on ROB when hes in the air, and ROB probably isnt in the air, if you are doing an OoS move on him.
You might, however be able to pull off falling first hit up air to footstool to jab lock tho...
JayBee
Smash Champion
instant DA Oos shield is probably the best option out of shield in terms of speed, but upair has the range, and you can DI it so that you are retreating with it. and characters like marth can still hit you after the dash attack, which is stupid.
I talked about upair a long time ago, and even had a video where a used it alot. people should know that I am an up air spamming sonic, its ability to pressure opponents above me to airdodge, as well as its disjointedness and sonic's ground speed to stay under them, puts a large chunk of characters at a bad position, plus sets up Down Smash and Nair decently, with thier lingering hitboxes. And its low lag at the end is perfect for allowing me time to dodge, block, attack, or retreat afterwards if I miss, especially if I fastfall it. Also consider that the pushback on many moves prevents you from grabbing Oos, like snakes f-tilt.
I use it A LOT. and you can check matches on youtube to prove it.
People should practice Oos retreating up air.
btw i play with tap jump off when I play Sonic.
I talked about upair a long time ago, and even had a video where a used it alot. people should know that I am an up air spamming sonic, its ability to pressure opponents above me to airdodge, as well as its disjointedness and sonic's ground speed to stay under them, puts a large chunk of characters at a bad position, plus sets up Down Smash and Nair decently, with thier lingering hitboxes. And its low lag at the end is perfect for allowing me time to dodge, block, attack, or retreat afterwards if I miss, especially if I fastfall it. Also consider that the pushback on many moves prevents you from grabbing Oos, like snakes f-tilt.
I use it A LOT. and you can check matches on youtube to prove it.
People should practice Oos retreating up air.
btw i play with tap jump off when I play Sonic.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I've been messing around with nair. Full hopping and dropping it on heads is a good idea.
Tap jump should be on with Sonic, Spring out of shield is not bad
Tap jump should be on with Sonic, Spring out of shield is not bad
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SH Uair OoS is basic **** dude, lol. It's still fantastic though.
Dash Attack OoS is great for punishing a lot of things, but ya have to be really careful to see if you're close to an edge or if your opponent is at a low percent...then you're really susceptible to a Dair or something from all of Sonic's ending lag.
Dash Attack OoS is great for punishing a lot of things, but ya have to be really careful to see if you're close to an edge or if your opponent is at a low percent...then you're really susceptible to a Dair or something from all of Sonic's ending lag.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Question: What do you think about me doing a compreshensive Sonic video that basically shows how to play sonic for beginners and advanced play? It seems as though we have gotten a long way, and to be honest, i am suprised when people ask us the same basic things over again. The idea would be to break the vid something like this...
1: Introduction
2: Strengths
3: Weaknesses
4: Basic Techniques
5: Advanced Techniques
6: What makes a good sonic player?
This is probably gonna be broken down into several videos. I'll be going over the info here at the sonic boards of course, and that way it'll be something we can say we all had a part of info wise. If you dont think this is really needed though, speak up, and share thoughts.
I think that I'll try to use my voice this time instead of subtitles...
1: Introduction
2: Strengths
3: Weaknesses
4: Basic Techniques
5: Advanced Techniques
6: What makes a good sonic player?
This is probably gonna be broken down into several videos. I'll be going over the info here at the sonic boards of course, and that way it'll be something we can say we all had a part of info wise. If you dont think this is really needed though, speak up, and share thoughts.
I think that I'll try to use my voice this time instead of subtitles...
Kinzer
Mammy
I am really interested to see what you have to say about Sonic's "weaknesses" and "what makes a good Sonic player" First off, so many people get the weakness part wrong, and what makes a good/ truly successful Sonic is quite often debated.
And this is my personal preference, but I prefer to read subtitles, it just makes a documentary more professional. You'd do a speech when you're doing a presentation in front of somebody or a group of people, this is just for anybody who cares enough to get educated, right?
And rather than just going over advanced techniques, I want people to know where and how to apply said advanced techniques. Basics are hard to explain because usually it's a given, but surprisingly people have trouble with that. O.o I can't stress enough how it's more important to be able to apply what you know, than just knowing things like you would know for an SAT Exam. :/ If you don't want to cover over the application of basics, I won't blame you, but if you can pull it off, I'll definitely recommend the video guide to anybody I talk to concerning the topic.
And this is my personal preference, but I prefer to read subtitles, it just makes a documentary more professional. You'd do a speech when you're doing a presentation in front of somebody or a group of people, this is just for anybody who cares enough to get educated, right?
And rather than just going over advanced techniques, I want people to know where and how to apply said advanced techniques. Basics are hard to explain because usually it's a given, but surprisingly people have trouble with that. O.o I can't stress enough how it's more important to be able to apply what you know, than just knowing things like you would know for an SAT Exam. :/ If you don't want to cover over the application of basics, I won't blame you, but if you can pull it off, I'll definitely recommend the video guide to anybody I talk to concerning the topic.
Chis
Finally a legend
I remember that we've discussed this several times yet nothing really happened. So it’s really cool that you’re offering.
I think that you should do a part to cover all those bad habits we see so often, like that spring to dair nonsense or roll spamming and show examples of why they're bad (show these actions getting punished) plus general things (saving Fsmash for kills and use Ftilt for spacing). By addressing the most common mistakes people make, it’ll make them a better player. I also think that the basic applications of Sonic's move set should be covered. Recovery and gimping options? Then ATs. Strengths and weakness can be combined into what makes Sonic a good player imo.
I think that you should do a part to cover all those bad habits we see so often, like that spring to dair nonsense or roll spamming and show examples of why they're bad (show these actions getting punished) plus general things (saving Fsmash for kills and use Ftilt for spacing). By addressing the most common mistakes people make, it’ll make them a better player. I also think that the basic applications of Sonic's move set should be covered. Recovery and gimping options? Then ATs. Strengths and weakness can be combined into what makes Sonic a good player imo.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
go for it kojin. but dont forget some of the things we've discussed. There is a plethora of things someone can do to be considered "good". Sonic can be played in almost any way.
Kinzer, your first statement is entirely true. I oftentime ask myself..."What makes a Sonic good? Is it the camping? The AT's?" It took me a while to figure out that it revolves around many things.
Chis brings up a good point. Kojin should really let us know what Sonic's weaknesses are. Predictability is the worst one that we all know though.
Kinzer, your first statement is entirely true. I oftentime ask myself..."What makes a Sonic good? Is it the camping? The AT's?" It took me a while to figure out that it revolves around many things.
Chis brings up a good point. Kojin should really let us know what Sonic's weaknesses are. Predictability is the worst one that we all know though.
Trent
Smash Champion
I agree with Kinzer on the subtitles part. I generally dislike tutorial videos on youtube when someone's talking, subtitles = win.
The BlackChrimson
Smash Apprentice
I'm all game for this vid. Also, it may help me a little bit too on a couple areas... ^^;
I'd also be willing to give some footage that might be (for one weird reason or another) some help for examples and so-on. However, I can't get anything online...I don't know how... ._.;
I'd also be willing to give some footage that might be (for one weird reason or another) some help for examples and so-on. However, I can't get anything online...I don't know how... ._.;
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
I'd love to see this happen.
Would Umby's old "mix up" thread be incorporated in the "What makes a good Sonic player" part as well? It's got some pretty good info and discussion goin on there and it'll be a shame to see it go to waste.
I agree with the others on subtitles. It's much more easier to scroll back to some points in the video if you have some texts in there instead of a voice. Also, some people might end up losing attention on the video and end up concentrating on your voice instead.
Hopefully my arse won't get dragged to work this Christmas so if you're ever needing a camera man or some videos, (of a Sonic doin bad habits) I could try and scrape around mine.
Would Umby's old "mix up" thread be incorporated in the "What makes a good Sonic player" part as well? It's got some pretty good info and discussion goin on there and it'll be a shame to see it go to waste.
I agree with the others on subtitles. It's much more easier to scroll back to some points in the video if you have some texts in there instead of a voice. Also, some people might end up losing attention on the video and end up concentrating on your voice instead.
I know I do that. >.<
Hopefully my arse won't get dragged to work this Christmas so if you're ever needing a camera man or some videos, (of a Sonic doin bad habits) I could try and scrape around mine.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
I think this video should have a section dedicated to the Spin specials.
Offensive applications, defensive applications, advanced techniques, recovery uses, etc.
Also, I think it would be a good idea to break down a brawl match into different aspects of play such as:
1. Approaching
2. Damage racking-what you do once you get the opponent in your range
3. Camping
4. Creating momentum
5. Stopping your opponents momentum
6. Recovery
7. Getting the kill
Things like that.
Offensive applications, defensive applications, advanced techniques, recovery uses, etc.
Also, I think it would be a good idea to break down a brawl match into different aspects of play such as:
1. Approaching
2. Damage racking-what you do once you get the opponent in your range
3. Camping
4. Creating momentum
5. Stopping your opponents momentum
6. Recovery
7. Getting the kill
Things like that.
Kinzer
Mammy
It's hard to break down a match because most of it is player based. If you ask me, I say we not put emphasis on things like "using such and such to do this or do that, it will make the opponents panic", because not everybody loses they're cool when they hear the "schuweeeeeeeee" charge animation of a ball attack. I'm more concerned about "Spinshot can be used when you need a quick aerial approach. Spinshot can get you behind your opponent in a short amount of time, allowing you to use a fast-falled, auto-canceled back air to attack your opponents and quickly run away if need be."
Kojin, if you need any help on the video, like using footage from any of my matches or anything like that, you know you can go right ahead. I'll also be willing to offer any assistance I can.
Kojin, if you need any help on the video, like using footage from any of my matches or anything like that, you know you can go right ahead. I'll also be willing to offer any assistance I can.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
What I mean is things like:
"Approaching"
"Sonic has a strong approach game because of his speed. Spins can be used to.......etcetcetc"
"Approaching"
"Sonic has a strong approach game because of his speed. Spins can be used to.......etcetcetc"
JayBee
Smash Champion
Yeah, it looks like this will have to be done in several videos. And due to the large amount of stuff on the sonic boards, I'll need help sifting through whats true, and the garbage, as well as the most important stuff. That will be the longest part by myself so those who link the most crucial info we discussed here will be of great help. donations for vids will be nice too, I wonder if I should just rip from youtube though, when I ask for high quality vids i can download from someplace other than youtube, the only one who did that was bionicsonic. i mean, they still look okay, but i figuered i 'd get a better quality elsewhere.
It'll be weeks of me getting the info ready, before i even get to work on vids, so dont feel pressured to give me some vids now guys. I'm also gonna look at tutorials for Adobe Premire, sort vids for best examples, make some oe my own... as you can see this will take a while. I wouldn't expect the first vid for at least a month from now.
If you'd like, later, I will type my article on Sonic in brawl here, then you guys will be more than allowed to make sure it is current and correct.
So, this will take a lot of work regardless. The more who help, the better. Most importantly as you guys help with info, please assume that the person who watches this is mid level or lower. I tend to make the info as digestible as possible.
Will post rough draft soon.
It'll be weeks of me getting the info ready, before i even get to work on vids, so dont feel pressured to give me some vids now guys. I'm also gonna look at tutorials for Adobe Premire, sort vids for best examples, make some oe my own... as you can see this will take a while. I wouldn't expect the first vid for at least a month from now.
If you'd like, later, I will type my article on Sonic in brawl here, then you guys will be more than allowed to make sure it is current and correct.
So, this will take a lot of work regardless. The more who help, the better. Most importantly as you guys help with info, please assume that the person who watches this is mid level or lower. I tend to make the info as digestible as possible.
Will post rough draft soon.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Cool. I'll be waiting for vids when you got them then. ask bionic how he sent them to me when I needed matches for "Back2Back"
Kuraudo
4Aerith
I have a really impressive kill on the best player on Canada's best player on the West Coast (SuPeRbOoM), to help add into how to use Sonic, particularily the implementing of his mindgames.
It was the Spin Shot into Springing Down Air on the stage. Only to do the exact same thing once more to pressure his MK while getting back onto the stage, right into an FSmash kill. It looks more impressive when you see the vid. I could send it to you through the Wiis if you wanted, Kojin. If you think it'd be useful.
It was the Spin Shot into Springing Down Air on the stage. Only to do the exact same thing once more to pressure his MK while getting back onto the stage, right into an FSmash kill. It looks more impressive when you see the vid. I could send it to you through the Wiis if you wanted, Kojin. If you think it'd be useful.