da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
what the hell is the point of making a dumbed down broken brawl, if sonic still has to get somebody to 150 to kill. thats the same as regular brawl...
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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
Chis
Finally a legend
Hm, Espy have you ever played Balanced Brawl?
JayBee
Smash Champion
I already have to deal with not being able to kill like that and its not fun at all, especially when all certain players do is not approach or anything, and there is nothing you can do about it but dash around. Sonic needed tools like this because:
1: it removes the incorrect theory that many players have heard and beleived that "if you shield, Sonic can never kill" phrase permanantly. With kill moves that work and new speed that applies even move pressure in conjuction with his spin attacks, even if they camp at the most its even.
2: It puts sonic into more of his character. He is a fast character that rolls into a ball to beat enemies. his buffs to the spin like moves engage the player to play the game like the old genesis days, and with an actual reward to those tactics the game is more fun to them. and the best part about it is that it STILL takes skill to win since he still has that priority issue. you will still be weaving in an out of attacks to bait and punish, and you still will be trying for throws, and you still will be trying to gimp people. the methods to get to those parts of his game simply have been made more rewarding
3: Even though Sonic in some matchups STILL can have problems killing (Bowser, Luigi, Jiggs) he can apply enough pressure to at least take something from them, and many of those opverpowered moves people are concerned about are easliy dealt with by many characters simply by spamming a high priority move the whole match, as it is in regular brawl. Its just that this time, you get a good reward for the few time you get those hits, and actually the buffs are fair in this regard. they are just fast and powerful, they still dont have that priority that Luigi posesses.
So guys if you havent played it, dont cry about it. its actually very fun, and matches constantly go back and forth between myself, Coney, GIMR, and Apsol, its not like one character is on a much higher level that the others (unlike this game that we seem to have no problem playing and going to tourneys for
)
1: it removes the incorrect theory that many players have heard and beleived that "if you shield, Sonic can never kill" phrase permanantly. With kill moves that work and new speed that applies even move pressure in conjuction with his spin attacks, even if they camp at the most its even.
2: It puts sonic into more of his character. He is a fast character that rolls into a ball to beat enemies. his buffs to the spin like moves engage the player to play the game like the old genesis days, and with an actual reward to those tactics the game is more fun to them. and the best part about it is that it STILL takes skill to win since he still has that priority issue. you will still be weaving in an out of attacks to bait and punish, and you still will be trying for throws, and you still will be trying to gimp people. the methods to get to those parts of his game simply have been made more rewarding
3: Even though Sonic in some matchups STILL can have problems killing (Bowser, Luigi, Jiggs) he can apply enough pressure to at least take something from them, and many of those opverpowered moves people are concerned about are easliy dealt with by many characters simply by spamming a high priority move the whole match, as it is in regular brawl. Its just that this time, you get a good reward for the few time you get those hits, and actually the buffs are fair in this regard. they are just fast and powerful, they still dont have that priority that Luigi posesses.
So guys if you havent played it, dont cry about it. its actually very fun, and matches constantly go back and forth between myself, Coney, GIMR, and Apsol, its not like one character is on a much higher level that the others (unlike this game that we seem to have no problem playing and going to tourneys for
)
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Chis
Finally a legend
Yeah, a while back I was suggesting that all their so called 'improvements' they made were useless and if they improved his killing abilities (like speeding up Fsmash) Sonic would be better. But they were like 'nah man, it's make him brokenz' and other rubbish as if it would tip him over the edge. And they wonder why Sonic still sucks.
So what improvements would you suggest? :O
All Sonic needs is less wind up and slow down on several attacks.
utilt, ftilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, bair, nair, and homing attack need less before and after lag.
I think he'd be just fine then. It'd be so much easier to land KO moves that it'd blow your mind.
PS: Maybe more kill power on his smashes too (mostly just fsmash and dsmash), as well as bair and nair.
utilt, ftilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, bair, nair, and homing attack need less before and after lag.
I think he'd be just fine then. It'd be so much easier to land KO moves that it'd blow your mind.
PS: Maybe more kill power on his smashes too (mostly just fsmash and dsmash), as well as bair and nair.
![[TSON]](/data/avatars/l/114/114196.jpg?1360761019){kind=avatar}
[TSON]
Hella.
You guys have it all wrong ITT.
So what if he has to wait until 150 to kill with anything other than fsmash? UAIR DOES 22%. DTILT DOES 17%. You don't realize how ridiculously easy it is to get a foe to that percentage. If you haven't played it, don't whine about it.
Chis
Finally a legend
Yeah it's slightly easier to get someone up to 150, when you still don't have disjointed hitboxes, reliable approaches or killing moves Sonic doesn’t just randomly become better as you haven't really addressed a main issue, Sonic doesn't really have an issues racking damage, but landing the finishing blow due to start up/average KO power. Sonic doesn't become better just by adding a few percentages here and there, common sense imo. And if you don't mind, I am asking superior players who have played it. I have yet to hear anything positive that these slight buffs have accomplished. But whatever, these are just suggestions to improve your project, so take what you will.
JayBee
Smash Champion
obviously ive played it and its not that big an issue. and what we need to know is that these people crying about it aren't even attempting to give time to adapt. almost everyday me GIMR, Aposl, and Coney played the game we found methods to counter things that we said were "broken" before, and even wiht things like wario's stupid super armor on everything, he still lost to my Sonic and Coney's Luigi, and other characters still did well against him. So that's not the problem. the problem is that this game has an extreme level of changes, and people dont like change too much usually. but like we said before , just play the game first.
So far the only thing we do agree on tho, is that Sonic is ******** LOL
even with the stupid things we found for other characters Sonic was the constant OMFG factor.
BTW, if you play this game, put stock at 5, or you will regret it.
So far the only thing we do agree on tho, is that Sonic is ******** LOL
even with the stupid things we found for other characters Sonic was the constant OMFG factor.BTW, if you play this game, put stock at 5, or you will regret it.
Browny
Smash Hater
game looks pretty silly lol. Granted its a MUCH better idea than the likes of B+ and BB since B- people arent delusional enough to believe it could ever be tourney standard 
Still, just too ridiculous. I get the impression that game will massively close down skill gaps when everyone combos to 50 and dies at 60
Still, just too ridiculous. I get the impression that game will massively close down skill gaps when everyone combos to 50 and dies at 60
Chis
Finally a legend
I was talking about BB by the way...just saying.
Browny
Smash Hater
wut... where was the b- discussion.
i had this page open for hours before getting around to posting on that b- sonic video lololol
i had this page open for hours before getting around to posting on that b- sonic video lololol
Chis
Finally a legend
Well I was, I think the others are talking about B- lol.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Tier list v4.0 is out!!!! Sonic dropped -2 spots1
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266820
Basically Sonic is in mid tier still, but Pokemon trainer somehow passed him up a spot, and ness caught up to him too.
Although I kinda don't like him dropping, it still feels like he's in the same spot, y'know? I can't deny that Sonic's weren't doing as well towards the latter part of the season as they were the latter part of the last one when we had steak+8. I don't really mind though. I honestly thought that sonic would go low tier, even though he isn't just because of people wanting him to be available for low tiers, and like Espy apparently, I've wanted to pick up Mario in case I dont get to be Sonic. I'm glad he didn't take such a drop because he the most viable of all the low tiers IMO if he still is considered low tier in your minds.
I have the privilage to play GodisMyRock and his brother Aposl often, who play Pokemon Trainer and Ness often. as a Sonic I had much experience fighting those particular characters played by good players. I am happy they both got up a few spots, as Ness was only misrepresented, and his rise indicates that people now recognize the POTENTIAL to stay at his current spot so long as people pick him up. his grab release chain grab aside he has a solid number of quick aerial moves that pressure and keep him safe, and his second jump weaves him and out very well if you do it right. That, and he has a back throw kill that every character in the game has to look out for.
As for pokemon trainer, had he not the stamina issue, I wouldn't even mind his placement. But that issue should have kept him out of mid tier, and even if he rose, he is NOT better than Sonic. I didn't even hear anything about pokemon trainers suddenly doing resonably well anywhere, so i don't really know where this is coming from. not that he is god awful. Squirtle is still considered mid tier by many, and charizard can hold his own in certain matcups, especially if the player doesn't know the matchup. But MD/VA player Coney said it best a few weeks ago, that even if you are not comfortable with a certain part of this team, simply stall or wait for the stamina issue to affect them.
That's it? that honestly made perfect sence to me. As a sonic main I usually don't play campy, and even if im simply running around, I'm certainly still applying pressure from mid range. Even with my kill issues as Sonic, I should still have more success than a weakened squirtle right? right. The stamina issue is so bad, that it almost prevents PKMN from ever being Mid Tier. Top of Low? maybe. better than sonic? never. besides, from player to player, Charizard or sqirtle would be about even for them in certain scenarios, and Ivysaur gets gimped so easily that sometimes its not even funny. I'm not talking about the sonic matchup btw.
Metaknight does deserve its own tier. This tier was an example of not ODing simply because metaknight didn't get first in every tourney everywhere for a year. that's a stupid requirement, especially when metas are always up in the top spots no matter what people do with characters like Diddy, Falco, and Snake, as good as the players are. So what M2K got second and Pound4? it happens. it's going to happen sometimes if he plays a really good player and he doesn't grasp the matchup, which people seem to sometimes forget is important in tourneys (not in the tier list) The top 10 i agree with completely. Wario was overhyped but still good if played the way people have been playing him, and though snake has a more exploitable weakness than Diddy IMO no one has abused it long enough to prove anything significant, and the damage probably gets evened out by one ftilt LOL.
I anticipate a shift in style for Sonic players. I belive that Sonics game stagnated becaise players got a better understanding of sonics playing a certain way, but on the other hand sonics may have also ignored certain elements of his gameplay, which depending on the player could improve his metagame. Thinking about it, Sonic is very technical, and even as players like Espy try to add things to thier game the level of talent to rquired to this in tourney is amazing IMO. i like his spot, but if things improve we will see one more rise of +1 or +2 before he won't budge anymore. either that or an eternal shuffle between Ness, Sonic, and pokemon trainer.
Those are my thoughts, please voice your comments here, and get back to work steaklings!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266820
Basically Sonic is in mid tier still, but Pokemon trainer somehow passed him up a spot, and ness caught up to him too.
Although I kinda don't like him dropping, it still feels like he's in the same spot, y'know? I can't deny that Sonic's weren't doing as well towards the latter part of the season as they were the latter part of the last one when we had steak+8. I don't really mind though. I honestly thought that sonic would go low tier, even though he isn't just because of people wanting him to be available for low tiers, and like Espy apparently, I've wanted to pick up Mario in case I dont get to be Sonic. I'm glad he didn't take such a drop because he the most viable of all the low tiers IMO if he still is considered low tier in your minds.
I have the privilage to play GodisMyRock and his brother Aposl often, who play Pokemon Trainer and Ness often. as a Sonic I had much experience fighting those particular characters played by good players. I am happy they both got up a few spots, as Ness was only misrepresented, and his rise indicates that people now recognize the POTENTIAL to stay at his current spot so long as people pick him up. his grab release chain grab aside he has a solid number of quick aerial moves that pressure and keep him safe, and his second jump weaves him and out very well if you do it right. That, and he has a back throw kill that every character in the game has to look out for.
As for pokemon trainer, had he not the stamina issue, I wouldn't even mind his placement. But that issue should have kept him out of mid tier, and even if he rose, he is NOT better than Sonic. I didn't even hear anything about pokemon trainers suddenly doing resonably well anywhere, so i don't really know where this is coming from. not that he is god awful. Squirtle is still considered mid tier by many, and charizard can hold his own in certain matcups, especially if the player doesn't know the matchup. But MD/VA player Coney said it best a few weeks ago, that even if you are not comfortable with a certain part of this team, simply stall or wait for the stamina issue to affect them.
That's it? that honestly made perfect sence to me. As a sonic main I usually don't play campy, and even if im simply running around, I'm certainly still applying pressure from mid range. Even with my kill issues as Sonic, I should still have more success than a weakened squirtle right? right. The stamina issue is so bad, that it almost prevents PKMN from ever being Mid Tier. Top of Low? maybe. better than sonic? never. besides, from player to player, Charizard or sqirtle would be about even for them in certain scenarios, and Ivysaur gets gimped so easily that sometimes its not even funny. I'm not talking about the sonic matchup btw.
Metaknight does deserve its own tier. This tier was an example of not ODing simply because metaknight didn't get first in every tourney everywhere for a year. that's a stupid requirement, especially when metas are always up in the top spots no matter what people do with characters like Diddy, Falco, and Snake, as good as the players are. So what M2K got second and Pound4? it happens. it's going to happen sometimes if he plays a really good player and he doesn't grasp the matchup, which people seem to sometimes forget is important in tourneys (not in the tier list) The top 10 i agree with completely. Wario was overhyped but still good if played the way people have been playing him, and though snake has a more exploitable weakness than Diddy IMO no one has abused it long enough to prove anything significant, and the damage probably gets evened out by one ftilt LOL.
I anticipate a shift in style for Sonic players. I belive that Sonics game stagnated becaise players got a better understanding of sonics playing a certain way, but on the other hand sonics may have also ignored certain elements of his gameplay, which depending on the player could improve his metagame. Thinking about it, Sonic is very technical, and even as players like Espy try to add things to thier game the level of talent to rquired to this in tourney is amazing IMO. i like his spot, but if things improve we will see one more rise of +1 or +2 before he won't budge anymore. either that or an eternal shuffle between Ness, Sonic, and pokemon trainer.
Those are my thoughts, please voice your comments here, and get back to work steaklings!
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
His spot is fine. Where he should have been LAST list too IMO.
JayBee
Smash Champion
yeah i honestly dont have any reason to gripe about Sonic and his placement. I like it.
still dont thinkg PKMT was doing better than him in tourneys though. ever.
that's just me.
still dont thinkg PKMT was doing better than him in tourneys though. ever.
that's just me.
Browny
Smash Hater
Its simple
Sonic mains are FAR better at the game than other low tier character mains, such that our results are massively skewed as no other low tier character has so many really good players using them.
Sonic mains are FAR better at the game than other low tier character mains, such that our results are massively skewed as no other low tier character has so many really good players using them.
"And now, finally, all the Triforce parts have gathered here!"
Honestly I didn't think Zelda was so bad. So is it still Ganon tier or is it going to be twilight tier or something now.
I don't know much about Ness, but I think his grab release issue poses a much bigger issue than charizards tech roll issue or squirtles air release.
I 2nd PT, and I never had a huge issue with fatigue. It doesn't hurt squirtle or charizards gimp game much. Kill power isn't everything. Ivysaur and Charizard are too much weight for that little turtle to carry.
Honestly I didn't think Zelda was so bad. So is it still Ganon tier or is it going to be twilight tier or something now.
I don't know much about Ness, but I think his grab release issue poses a much bigger issue than charizards tech roll issue or squirtles air release.
I 2nd PT, and I never had a huge issue with fatigue. It doesn't hurt squirtle or charizards gimp game much. Kill power isn't everything. Ivysaur and Charizard are too much weight for that little turtle to carry.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
*triforce tier. Lol. inb4 LoZ characters start ****** low tier doubles.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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pokemon trainer's spot above Sonic was surprising to me.
espy saying that ness should be above Sonic makes me lol.
i am looking at the tier list and I do think that some spots are determined by how well certain characters are doing in certain tourneys. Like, in the last tier list, it was all about thatMalcolm meatriding Wario and Sonic's +8. Now I see Diddy up there, IC's gained some ground, and I think Pit got up because of the comparisons to MK... of course, there is also this whole 4 month brawl hiatus that life justly forced upon me, so maybe there's stuff I'm missing.
espy saying that ness should be above Sonic makes me lol.
i am looking at the tier list and I do think that some spots are determined by how well certain characters are doing in certain tourneys. Like, in the last tier list, it was all about that
M
+9999999999
While Ivy and Charizard feel like dead weight on Squirtle's back, if Squirtle manages to take the first stock, he can play like a wario if he feels he needs to, and still have the opportunity to make a reappearance for the last stock. So while a PT plays a match with about 2 real stocks (the squirtle ones), Squirtle is viable enough on its own to dismantle many other low tiers. And if Charizard fares well, then the matchup isn't a probem for them at all.
Also what Tesh said, Squirtle and in some cases, zard, are pretty good when it comes down to their gimp game.
Also what Tesh said, Squirtle and in some cases, zard, are pretty good when it comes down to their gimp game.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
I don't like pt being over sonic :/ I don't even know how he got over Sonic lol. Hasn't X been ****** enough out there. Guess this proves you can't count on one hedgehog to do all the work.
Low shots at espy, kid, and speed (smirk) and my one placing that went in at my last tourney roflfl. (Smirk2)
Low shots at espy, kid, and speed (smirk) and my one placing that went in at my last tourney roflfl. (Smirk2)
Browny
Smash Hater
idk about you guys, but it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing PT and sheik mains regularly donate money to the smart player foundation while under the delusion that they will finally start to make some money back if they continue to bust veins arguing matchups, frame data and combos etc on an internet forum for years on end LOL.
Sure sonic may be in the same boat, but at least we arent delusional They wanna enjoy being close to mid tier so what let em... wont make up for the countless headaches and losses theyre gonna suffer over and over again when they cant figure out why they cant beat any high tier characters.
Id rather be a character with no unwinnable matchups, a blue hedgehog, tons of options in every situation and countless variations of playstyle etc than be ranked 1 place higher on a poorly decided list.
Sure sonic may be in the same boat, but at least we arent delusional
They wanna enjoy being close to mid tier so what let em... wont make up for the countless headaches and losses theyre gonna suffer over and over again when they cant figure out why they cant beat any high tier characters.Id rather be a character with no unwinnable matchups, a blue hedgehog, tons of options in every situation and countless variations of playstyle etc than be ranked 1 place higher on a poorly decided list.
infomon
Smash Scientist
amazing postidk about you guys, but it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing PT and sheik mains regularly donate money to the smart player foundation while under the delusion that they will finally start to make some money back if they continue to bust veins arguing matchups, frame data and combos etc on an internet forum for years on end LOL.
Sure sonic may be in the same boat, but at least we arent delusional
Id rather be a character with no unwinnable matchups, a blue hedgehog, tons of options in every situation and countless variations of playstyle etc than be ranked 1 place higher on a poorly decided list.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
Not the coolest hedgehog but yea. He's aight.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Scrouge?
EBENEZER SCOURGE!
Scourge isn't even the coolest green hedgehog for the record. Take THAT OriginalFiend.
EBENEZER SCOURGE!
Scourge isn't even the coolest green hedgehog for the record. Take THAT OriginalFiend.
What he said.idk about you guys, but it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing PT and sheik mains regularly donate money to the smart player foundation while under the delusion that they will finally start to make some money back if they continue to bust veins arguing matchups, frame data and combos etc on an internet forum for years on end LOL.
Sure sonic may be in the same boat, but at least we arent delusional
Id rather be a character with no unwinnable matchups, a blue hedgehog, tons of options in every situation and countless variations of playstyle etc than be ranked 1 place higher on a poorly decided list.
It would be cool if the BBR got lazy and threw Sonic back in low tier.
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Nah, Scourge is def the coolest spin off hedgehog. Shadow WAS cool, Silver was instantly gay the second they had the idea, Manic starred in an awful cartoon, and Scourge is as ****** as Shadow wishes he was, and a better green hedgehog than Manic could dream to be.
Trent
Smash Champion
Rob O' the Hedge is pretty tight.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
I'm sigging this.Nah, Scourge is def the coolest spin off hedgehog. Shadow WAS cool, Silver was instantly gay the second they had the idea, Manic starred in an awful cartoon, and Scourge is as ****** as Shadow wishes he was, and a better green hedgehog than Manic could dream to be.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
OriginalFiend lol. U fggts <3