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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

JayBee

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Yeah guys, that is something you need to get used to doing first off. I'll try to get some footage of me trying to beat it soon.

btw, this is my brawl pools for pound.
Pool 27

Atomsk
BanHammer
Deez
Tactical
Smash GOD
Soma Cruz
Kojin

from what i understand this is it. Constructive criticism would be nice, like if you have exp on them what they like to do. and No KidGoggles, "you're gonna lose to them all" is not constructive or informative. -50 steak points for you.
 

WedginatorX

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Alright, Kojin. The only one in there I can really help you with is atomsk. Besides the fact that he whores grabs even more than usual against sonics as D3, he has a bad habit of not punishing close-range spins- or at least that's what I've seen so far. He sees them coming at mid & long range, but, even though they can be easily avoided, he doesn't normally do anything if you do close range spins to aerials last time I saw him playing against a sonic. Always chase him offstage if you think he's gonna die unless you're at 120+%~ his @$$ never dies. Don't underestimate his DI, especially as a character who can't kill. He knows to grab you out of ASC, so if you're going to ASC, make sure you do it from an angle that it's hard to grab you from. Run away if you gain a stock and camp him until he approaches... he sucks at approaching when he gets nervous/behind and watch out for his stupid tendency to get gordo kills =_= at DSO9 i saw him get a ton in doubles. And then... just general D3 matchup stuff. If he goes MK, he sometimes makes really stupid nado decisions, so make sure to exploit them. Eh... I can't really think of a ton of other habits of his that I've observed.
Other than that... GOGOGOGOGOGOGO!
 

MarKO X

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atom ant is good enough to use anyone, and he might go ICs. Just throwing that out there, no need to lose a match before it actually begins due to the element of surprise.

Deez and Tactical got vids on youtube. Deez uses like, Mario, Kirby, and Diddy from what I've seen, and Tactical uses Lucario.

If Soma Cruz is the same Soma on youtube, he uses Zelda.

I couldn't find Smash GOD and BanHammer on the tube, although I have a feel that BH is someone I should know but I don't.

edit: as a matter of fact, it is the same soma cruz. he has his own youtube channel.
 

Isatis

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Smash God is a good MK/Snake player... I help him frequently with hacks too. Mostly a WiFi player but does astounding better in doubles than singles.
 

JayBee

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Yeah, i've been looking at vids last night and typing notes to take to pools with me. lol. maybe i'm going too far but im scared ill forget something really important and lose it.

btw, you guys wanted vids, or it didn't happen right? decided to put something together real quick. if there are any problems or misinformation, let me know immediately, i dont like to mislead the noobs lol.

in anycase, the visual aid to what you are supposed to do should help many people out. :)

vid is uploaded, and being processed now:
Sonic vs Mach Tornado: A Kojin/Sonic tutorial

its gonna take a while to be processed.
hope this works for you guys...
 

Espy Rose

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Yeah, i've been looking at vids last night and typing notes to take to pools with me. lol. maybe i'm going too far but im scared ill forget something really important and lose it.

btw, you guys wanted vids, or it didn't happen right? decided to put something together real quick. if there are any problems or misinformation, let me know immediately, i dont like to mislead the noobs lol.

in anycase, the visual aid to what you are supposed to do should help many people out. :)

vid is uploaded, and being processed now:
Sonic vs Mach Tornado: A Kojin/Sonic tutorial

its gonna take a while to be processed.
hope this works for you guys...
Since I'm having a hard time posting the vid or a text response up on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S7IJJZJq-o
 

Espy Rose

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Because you're too slow!!

Honestly, I forgot we could do that. You can ONLY grab them if their body is in your grab range. I tested this mess out awhile back.

It could've been handy vs. Dojo. He 'nado'd me pretty often in that exact spot. Stupid me.
 

MarKO X

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You can ONLY grab them if their body is in your grab range.
ummm... isn't that true for everything that you could ever grab ever?

lol @ taking things out of context.
 

The BlackChrimson

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I've been able to pull off the nado steal (shield grab), and was the funniest freaking thing ever! Everyone flipped at what happened, and the mind shock screwed up Tommy, and I claimed the match from it.

But still...
Excel: I pretty much need to do the same thing against Snake? But be a little more punish and campy?
Just want to be sure; and I know I likely missed my timing on the topic, but I need to be sure of what works against Snake...
 

Tesh

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That's pretty cool, I thought that was only possible if you were above MK and the tornado was rising into you.

The MK frame data thread doesn't show how often the move hits, just the hitbox duration, but it has 21 hits (I think thats correct) and a 120 frame duration. I'm not sure if it can hit multiple times at once, but I would have to guess it hits every 10ish frames. This has never worked for me with charizard though.
 

Espy Rose

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Brawl- Sonic is horrendous.

They should've just kept his original Pac. That's all they needed to do.
 

JayBee

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wha? he was worse? how?
btw, if you look at most of the characters they aren't that great, only Sonic, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario IMO really got powered up. from what i see anyways.n

Metaknight is still dumb tho. they gave him easy tech chasing setups. WHY?!
 
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Brawl- Sonic is horrendous.

They should've just kept his original Pac. That's all they needed to do.
Noooo... Brawl- sonic is really, really powerful. Doing 20+ damage with every attack is so totally underpowered...

You'd be too if you played the original Brawl- Sonic.
Yes, because having an infinite grab release on everyone is a good thing.

wha? he was worse? how?
btw, if you look at most of the characters they aren't that great, only Sonic, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario IMO really got powered up. from what i see anyways.n

Metaknight is still dumb tho. they gave him easy tech chasing setups. WHY?!
o.O wut

Have you seen some of these guys? Or are you going off the very outdated pacs in the OP of the smashboards thread... Most of the chars are absolute ****. Who isn't that great?

Also MK wut? Easy tech chase where?
 

Espy Rose

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Sarcasm fails on the internet.

And also, what is this original pac that had to be reworked because Espy found something broken the instant he got his hands on it? O_o
Just like Mr. Budget said. Sonic had an infinite grab on most of the cast.

It's actually not that bad. Have you even TRIED grabbing someone in Brawl-? It shouldn't happen often if the player knows what they're doing.

I'd LOVE to see someone try to grab someone like Wario, Jigglypuff, or Ness.

@Budgy: No matter what you say, in comparison to that awesome first Pac, Brawl- current Sonic is garbage.

+20% on every attack? You mad jab do 20%?
Doesn't matter, especially when there's like, 5 characters that can kill at 0%.
 

JayBee

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from 0%, Sonic can upthrow in to a Bair, Bair, Bair. And if one of those bairs leads off stage, he can land with no lag, then quickly run offstage and throw out a spring to spike them before they can react. And even if that one doesn't kill them, since dair is lagless, you can spring dair on the stage ASAP and then run back off and spring again before they reach the ledge. And the best part of this is that this situation can be adjusted.

He can also combo Dash Attacks together if he uses the weak hits, which always trip. That lets you easily tech chase with either more weak dash attacks, Down Smash, which cancels into anything you want, or the strong Dash Attack, which does 23%, and can kill at 80%.

His speed is stupid, and his crouch cancel slides him very far, and he can do anything afterwards.

His spring is a true spike, and looks like it can gimp at nearly anypercentage except for the absolute best recvoery characters aka those with super armor or a move that eats teh spring like Bowser.

Dash Attack (Strong) combos into upair>spting upair.

Dtilt > Grab > upthrow is still legit at low percents, but there is no upthrow chain grab. Fair> Fair works fine as well.

Nair has wonderful knockback too, and i can use it at the end of a edgegaurd to push them back, possible for kills. its so strong i use it in my combos now.

- his turnaround animation is the same as before, so it looks really bad, but you shouldn't be using it anyway.

Fsmash and Bair have a longer lasting hitbox, does massive damgae.

that's what I get form it right now. You can seriously base your game off of his dashes and his Dash Attack and be good, which is ironic becuase this sounds like how sonic should have been in the first place, but it took a bunch o hackers to get it done right. LOL sakurai

oh yeah, and Crack Taunting is the best AT in the game LOL.
 
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Sarcasm fails on the internet.

And also, what is this original pac that had to be reworked because Espy found something broken the instant he got his hands on it? O_o
Naw, a few others found it first, I was just slow. :V

Just like Mr. Budget said. Sonic had an infinite grab on most of the cast.

It's actually not that bad. Have you even TRIED grabbing someone in Brawl-? It shouldn't happen often if the player knows what they're doing.

I'd LOVE to see someone try to grab someone like Wario, Jigglypuff, or Ness.

@Budgy: No matter what you say, in comparison to that awesome first Pac, Brawl- current Sonic is garbage.

+20% on every attack? You mad jab do 20%?
Doesn't matter, especially when there's like, 5 characters that can kill at 0%.
Eh, not every attack. Jab does like 18 IIRC, all 3 hits put together. And grab release infinite is still terrible design.

from 0%, Sonic can upthrow in to a Bair, Bair, Bair. And if one of those bairs leads off stage, he can land with no lag, then quickly run offstage and throw out a spring to spike them before they can react. And even if that one doesn't kill them, since dair is lagless, you can spring dair on the stage ASAP and then run back off and spring again before they reach the ledge. And the best part of this is that this situation can be adjusted.

He can also combo Dash Attacks together if he uses the weak hits, which always trip. That lets you easily tech chase with either more weak dash attacks, Down Smash, which cancels into anything you want, or the strong Dash Attack, which does 23%, and can kill at 80%.
Kirk demanded dash attack get nerfed. ;_; 22 is a little much, but he still thought it was too much when strong hit did 16. >.> This is Brawl- Sonic, FFS. But spring gimping is great.

His speed is stupid, and his crouch cancel slides him very far, and he can do anything afterwards.

His spring is a true spike, and looks like it can gimp at nearly anypercentage except for the absolute best recvoery characters aka those with super armor or a move that eats teh spring like Bowser.
It's a true spike? Howso? I mean, I set the BKB pretty high... It's powerful, that's for sure.

Dash Attack (Strong) combos into upair>spting upair.

Dtilt > Grab > upthrow is still legit at low percents, but there is no upthrow chain grab. Fair> Fair works fine as well.

Nair has wonderful knockback too, and i can use it at the end of a edgegaurd to push them back, possible for kills. its so strong i use it in my combos now.
Weak hits are stronger. I didn't compensate the knockback as much on them. :3

- his turnaround animation is the same as before, so it looks really bad, but you shouldn't be using it anyway.
I've heard about this a bunch, I could potentially fix it... if I knew what exactly we're talking about and how to fix it.

Fsmash and Bair have a longer lasting hitbox, does massive damgae.
Enjoying that elbow? :V

that's what I get form it right now. You can seriously base your game off of his dashes and his Dash Attack and be good, which is ironic becuase this sounds like how sonic should have been in the first place, but it took a bunch o hackers to get it done right. LOL sakurai
Dash attack is getting nerfed, apparently. That it kills so astoundingly early was not intentional; in the new build it will not kill, but set up for a very easy Bair/Nair/Uair with JC IASA.

oh yeah, and Crack Taunting is the best AT in the game LOL.
As said in another thread...

Sonic can force FALCO to approach.
...
When falco is in the lead.
...
ON BRIDGE OF ELDIN.

Sonic I like a lot. :3
 

Espy Rose

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I like it too.

I just like Sonic- Beta ajillion times more, so the new one sucks by comparison.
 

Camalange

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Sorry, but Brawl- looks absurd. So much damage output...Sonic's spring causing that huge of a spike? Everything seemed ridiculously overdone. Of course, I never played it, but I also have no intent too >_<

:093:
 
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Sorry, but Brawl- looks absurd. So much damage output...Sonic's spring causing that huge of a spike? Everything seemed ridiculously overdone. Of course, I never played it, but I also have no intent too >_<

:093:
Kirk is making me nerf the spring, and some moves on damage. Sonic still can't score kills reliably below like 150.
 
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