Kirby's Matchup Rankings

[Delta Z]

Wow, t!mmy pretty much covered everything about the matchup. So it seems like...60-40? 65-35?

 

[Colbert]

I can see Deg's point and I agree. A good Dedede is going to make himself hard to gimp, even with inhale.

To wellwisherelf: A fresh F-smash killing at 80 percent on Dedede?! I can see this on the edge of Green Greens/ Corneria or something, but this isn't gonna happen in the middle of Battlefield or Final Destination, especially with DI.

I still give this a 50:50 or 55:45

 

[MK26]

Kirby: Kirby can grab you, forward throw, uptilt as he falls, grab you again, then use a variety of finishers to put you at high percentage from 0%. The main issue is that Kirby has little range compared to you, and has to guess how you will move and use multiple Bairs in most other situations. Not only can you do the same, but you also have a projectile. Do not get tircked into Kirby's Wall of Pain strategy, and use your pokes to make it even harder to get close. If kirby gets you off the edge, he can keep you off with bairs, but you can do the same to him too.

This is from the matchup thread in the Dedede forum. It seems to me that the Dededes don't seem to be fazed by their slow attacks, and usually won't use them against a small, quick character like Kirby. However, they also don't know about Final Cutter.

 

[TwilightKirby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpVULlSxeEQ
I think this definitely shows kirby has an advantage against ddd
(look at how scared ddd is!! XD)

 

[Deg222]

Lolz at the video.

So what's the final verdict here? 55-45? 50-50? It sounding pretty even to me...

 

[TwilightKirby]

eh kirby has the advantage for sure.. not a huge one for sure but its there
its like ike in that you just have to be careful not to be hit by those super slow moves that kill you at 20% o.o
besides that kirby has a better aerial game and he can attack ddd at angles that he can't fight back from because hes so fat and kribys so small

really ddds main tool in this match is shield grabs that do 16% + grab pummels
just be extra careful of deadly shield grabs o.o

 

[Dpete]

I'd say we're at least looking at 55-45. The original 60-40 sounds pretty correct as well. Looks like its between those two in my opinion.

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't play any kirby's at all so I can only give DDD info.

Kirby edgeguarding DDD:
As for easily gimped recovery. Not at all. Good DDDs will take pressure off them by throwing waddles with each jump. Also his UpB is hard to punish against a good DDD, because they will change it up every time. they can fast fall and do that they sweetspot the edge at the apex of the jump, they could jump right over you cancel it and DI towards the stage, they could do most of the jump and cancel it at the very end, etc. There are many options making it very hard to punish.

Ground game:
Another thing to consider is that DDD can keep kirby out of range with ftilt. Ftilt should help prevent kirby from getting a grab to throw DDD off the stage with. Dtilt comes out pretty quick but I don't know how useful it is in this matchup. I would probably approach with bairs due to the range, priority, and speed of it and then go for a grab to punish any mistakes (i know that's very difficult against a kirby) so I can throw kirby off the stage.

DDD edgeguarding kirby:
If the DDD predicts dodges well his bair alone could keep kirby off the stage, but I'm figuring kirby would still have an easy time getting back with his multiple jumps that are better than DDD's. If DDD gets kirby far out enough with decayed bairs he'll go for the fair or even when both are close to the stage and he's facing you. Fair tends to be fresh, it hits hard and has ok range so its one of DDD's best KO moves and I think its very important for this matchup. Its not easy to dodge against a good DDD especially if he can predict your dodges or randomly just fast falls it.

Sorry if it seems biased, but I don't have much info about DDD vs. kirby. I hope that helped.

 

[lilthunder91013]

When are we going to discuss the next character I propose we talk about Wolf.

 

[Dpete]

When are we going to discuss the next character I propose we talk about Wolf.

Well let's see. It's called a weekly character review. I'm thinking one character per month sounds good?

Ranking Summary: King Dedede

I think its obvious that t!mmy's post was pretty definitive as a summary for the matchup against Dedede. He pretty much covered everything I would consider when summarizing. So I'll just quote that as our summary for the Dedede matchup.

Kirby vs. Dedede

This match-up is very close to even, but if anyone has the advantage I would wager it would be Kirby.

Dedede
Advantages: Good Reach, Heavy Weight.
Disadvantages: Slow Air Speed, Slow Ground Speed, Slow Attacks, Large Size

Kirby
Advantages: Small Size, Strong Attacks, Combos, Attack Speed, Recovery
Disadvantages: Light Weight, Short Attacks

General Observations
Kirby can get damage in bursts, especially when striking at low percents. Dedede isn't especially difficult to get off-stage at which point Dedede's campy offense is negated. However, it's that same campy offense that can keep Kirby at a distance, building damage, and putting Kirby at a growing disadvantage.

Contrary to one's initial thought, it's really Kirby who has the better KO options in this fight. While Dedede houses some extremely powerful attacks, they're much less likely to land or sweet-spot on Kirby. Dedede will often times have to rely on weaker attacks due to speed or reach, especially when the Kirby player is smart enough to avoid the dreaded U-tilt. Kirby on the other hand has several attacks that hold enough power to net KOs that also have enough speed to punish a mistep from Dedede.

At a distance, Dedede's Waddle Dee Toss can prove useful, but Kirby's Final Cutter can be used to skillfully knock them away as well as send a Cutter shockwave through any number of Dees, Doos, and Dededes. Both characters have considerable lag to punish during these projectiles, but due to the slow speed of these fighters optimal punishment can be difficult.

The real battle takes place where projectiles can easily be shielded or Dodge and close enough to punish. At this distance, Kirby is looking for a way to bridge the gap and get some solid damage in while Dedede is keeping an extra step away to get the first hit with his long reaching attacks. Once Kirby and Dedede get into close quarters, Kirby is either approaching with an aerial, a tilt, or going for a grab - Dedede's options at this time is a 'stop-thrust' (holding out an attack for Kirby to run into such as D-tilt, B-air, etc.), Shield Camping (usually to net a grab), or to pull back and re-establish distance.

A decisive part of the fight is in the off-stage battle. King Dedede is less mobile and predictable upon his recovery than Kirby because Dedede's Jumps are shorter, fewer in number, and sort of pathetic. Kirby is floatier, has his Hammer for horizontal mobility, and can latch onto the ledge much easier with Final Cutter than Dedede's Super Jump. However, Dedede has some very effective edge guarding against Kirby because Dedede's B-air is stronger, larger, and a lot more intimidating to the light-weight Kirby than vice versa. They both have the option to go for a Swallowcide (of which Dedede's always seems more effective) but this usually results in both players losing a stock so it requires much more stategic implementation than simply hitting the guy as an edge guard.

After reading that post again, and the new input from our community and the Dedede community, I think a revised rating of 55-45 covers the matchup pretty well.

 

[Dpete]

Weekly Character Review #2: Falco

Probably the most debated matchup in our original set of rankings, Falco is an interesting foe for Kirby. Once again I had to make a rough compromise on this matchup with the 50-50 ranking due to lots of controversy, as mains from both respective communities thought their character had the advantage.

So, let's get into it. I know most people are pretty opinionated on this subject, so getting into discussion shouldn't be that difficult. Here's a link to a discussion of this matchup within the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178796. Hopefully we can get some of those guys in here to make this an interesting discussion.

 

[Deg222]

Alrighty, my thoughts:

First, let's state that we can combo Falco from 0% to 50% with a simple grab. If anybody says "Don't get grabbed" you're being ignorant, plain and simple. We're human beings we can't play perfect. There are definitely strategies to reduce the amount of times you get grabbed, but it will never be brought down to 0. So in the end, we won't always get that grab at 0% but there's a good chance with Kirby's nice grab reach. While I'm talking about grabs, Falco can't really chain grab Kirby either, I think he can pull off 2 chain grabs from 0% but that's it.

Another advantage we have against Falco is that he can't spike us. If you find yourself getting spiked, you need to simply jump higher and avoid that edge, you have 5 jumps (not including the first one) for a reason. His gimping game in general is completely out of the question.

However, we can't really gimp him all that well either because of his ridiculously fast forward b. Inhaling him while he's using his forward b is very hard to time. Probably the easiest time to pull this off is if he's so far away, he needs that edge to hang on to make it back to the platform. Then at that point you can just edge guard him. All in all, it's not very easy to gimp Falco and if you get too crazy about gimping you'll find yourself getting spiked.

Since gimping one another is almost out of the question, how is each others ground game? We all discussed over and over that his lasers aren't as effective as it is to other characters because we can duck. However, his laser game isn't completely nullified with good mind games. Basically, you won't find yourself having trouble with laser at a far distance, but he can always pull one off next to you when you least expect it.

Enough about lasers, Falco's ground game overall is better than yours mostly because of his insane neutral attack. Nothing can penetrate this attack and once he starts it, you have to DI away, there's no other option. Almost all of Falco's short hop aerials can auto cancel which equals more mind game options for Falco over us. His deflector is also a good spacing tool if he's not being predictable with it. This move can also trip you, he can't really take advantage of this trip, but it definitely keeps you away from him. Our ground game against Falco consists mostly of up tilts with its high priority, short hop back airs and shield grabs. In the end, you can't rush Falco on the ground, with his excellent spacing he will keep you away from him. Learn to power shield, read his attacks, and be patient if you want to fight him on the ground.

However, we obviously have the better air game. Most of his aerials are predictable and are pretty punishable. Your back air has better priority than most of his aerials. We can air juggle him pretty nicely as well at lower %'s due to his heavy weight. You can usually come from underneath him, make sure to watch out for his down air however. But a up tilt to up air/back air should work out well just fine. There isn't much else to say about his air game, it's not that great compared to yours, take advantage of this, aerial camp if you have to.

My verdict on this match up is very neutral. Anywhere from 55-45 to 45-55. If you think we have a huge advantage just because we can combo him from 0% to 50%, you haven't played a serious Falco.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

It's not a huge advantage either way. If it was, there wouldn't be this argument.

Even though Kirby can survive the spike, at mid-percentages it becomes pretty easy to follow up the spike with two foot stools for the gimp since Kirby's jumps are floaty and relatively slow. Even a falling Fair works well at keeping Kirby off the stage.

Kirby's aerial game isn't significantly better than Falco's. In fact, Falco personally prefers the air. Nair, Dair, and Bair autocancel, so how are the "pretty punishable"? Bair and Dair air come out quick and do good damage and knock back. At higher percentages (probably around 130-150), both of those move become killing moves. The only negative of Falco's aerial game is that it doesn't have the greatest priority, but that's where lasers come in. They control a lot of space and rack up damage well. Not to mention the lagless, silent lasers that can stun you and lead into an Usmash.

I also find Falco's anti-air game to be exceptional. Lasers, short hopped reflector, a good up tilt, Bair spam, Nair spam, Usmash, boosted Usmash that can travel almost half of Final Destination, and the gatling combo (dash attack > Usmash) provides more than enough artillery to stop most aerial approaches.

 

[Deg222]

Even though Kirby can survive the spike, at mid-percentages it becomes pretty easy to follow up the spike with two foot stools for the gimp since Kirby's jumps are floaty and relatively slow. Even a falling Fair works well at keeping Kirby off the stage.

Ok seriously, how could Kirby get in that position in the first place? Not only does he have 5 jumps, but if he wants to, he can save his jumps and use aerial hammers to recover. Kirby simply has way too many ways to avoid from getting on that edge.

Kirby's aerial game isn't significantly better than Falco's. In fact, Falco personally prefers the air. Nair, Dair, and Bair autocancel, so how are the "pretty punishable"? Bair and Dair air come out quick and do good damage and knock back. At higher percentages (probably around 130-150), both of those move become killing moves. The only negative of Falco's aerial game is that it doesn't have the greatest priority, but that's where lasers come in. They control a lot of space and rack up damage well. Not to mention the lagless, silent lasers that can stun you and lead into an Usmash.

You just answered why Falco's air game is punishable, Kirby has more priority. I started following along what you were saying about Falco's lasers forcing Kirby to air dodge at times, but then you start mentioning silent lasers? That deals with ground game, not air. When I say air game, I don't mean at short hop level, I think we're seeing "Air game" as two totally different things.

I also find Falco's anti-air game to be exceptional. Lasers, short hopped reflector, a good up tilt, Bair spam, Nair spam, Usmash, boosted Usmash that can travel almost half of Final Destination, and the gatling combo (dash attack > Usmash) provides more than enough artillery to stop most aerial approaches.

Again we're seeing "Air game" as two totally different things. I'm talking about the height of full jumps. Sure Falco can camp using lasers on the ground to stop aerial approaches but Kirby can camp spamming aerials in the air to make Falco approach where he's weak.

Up tilt, Usmash boosted or not, gatling combo, all involves ground game not air game.


So I still say Falco has the better ground game while Kirby as the better air game.

 

[Colbert]

Gimping

Good points Deg. Here is where I disagree with you.

However, we can't really gimp him all that well either because of his ridiculously fast forward b. Inhaling him while he's using his forward b is very hard to time. Probably the easiest time to pull this off is if he's so far away, he needs that edge to hang on to make it back to the platform. Then at that point you can just edge guard him. All in all, it's not very easy to gimp Falco and if you get too crazy about gimping you'll find yourself getting spiked.

I think that both parties will agree that once Falco is put into a position where he is forced to use his UpB, he is extremely easy to gimp. It gets cut through, can be easily edgehogged, and can be repeatedly spiked by Kirby's dair.

The real argument comes from Falco users saying that they will not be put into a position where they would be forced to use their UpB. This is wrong.

Falco can easily be put below, or slightly below, stage level in a variety of ways. He can be placed there by Kirby via inhale and be hit during a Phantasm, which are to my knowledge the most common and reliable ways to get him down there.

1) Inhale: Saying "Falco will never get inhaled" is even more preposterous than saying he won't get grabbed. Not only does inhale have an easy time landing on it's own, it can be used with a grab combo. Even at extremely low percents, Kirby has enough time to spit below stage level, or even underneath the stage. Kirby can obviously do this from 0 percent when inhaling from off the stage, and has enough time to do it to Falco from about 20 percent on. Inhale is also not hard to connect with during Falco's phantasm, as Deg stated. Which brings me to my next point...

2) Cutting through Phantasm: There are so many ways for Kirby to cut through Phantasm, and it is not hard due to the predictability of the move. As long as Falco doesn't want to get owned, he will either try to sweetspot the edge or go just above the edge with this move. If Falco already uses his mid-air jump, it is obvious exactly when and where Falco will be using his sideb, when it comes to both height and distance from the stage. Because of this, the speed of the move does not matter and Kirby can already plan on a counter before the move is executed.


The most devastating way to gimp this is with inhale, but that does not make it the easiest. Getting the height down on this isn't hard by any means, just the planning. A small limitation is that it may be difficult to do this type of gimp if you are not near the edge that you hit them out from (it is helpful to already be near the edge that you hit them out from). Because it is a long lasting move, this greatly benefits Kirby. Once Falco finds himself in Kirby's mouth, he can be spat out below and far enough that UpB won't reach.

Bair is also a very effective way, but a bit risky. A small timing error could mean a spike, but Kirby can recover from these with a low risk of harm. Either way, bair is a very quick move and the predictability of Phantasm allows it to connect. Jumping all the way out to the point where Falco actually uses his side b is effective and a Falco can't do much about this, especially from far away when this applys most. Hammer works in the same way, but is harder to do from far out. Somehow, some players have an easier time landing the hammer as opposed to the bair in this situation. **Remember: The point of this is just to hit so that Falco drops from his initial side b height. Because this height is either exactly lined up with the edge or right above, this is enough to put Falco below the stage.

Down B is pretty much out of the question for Kirby because placement would have to be extremely precise and would have to be executed with extremely nice planning. It's still possible to edgeguard with this however, and can be possibly executed on stages like Yoshi's Island.

Up B is a choice that often gets overlooked, and is extremely effective especially when you're trying to change it up from the bairs. The slicing from the blade is fast enough to usually stop Falco, and the projectile is large enough to hit Falco whether he is aiming above the stage or at the edge. Extremely useful; low risk, high reward.

Laser: By far the easiest and most effective way, but also the most situational. Stealing Falco's laser is very helpful in these situations and is very easy to land no matter what the height or distance is.

 

[Deg222]

I figured Falco's forward b penetrates Kirby's inhale, I always thought it did at least. I know the inhale can get Falco's recovery during the ending animation. Anyways, I won't talk about gimping since I don't know THAT much about it.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Ok seriously, how could Kirby get in that position in the first place? Not only does he have 5 jumps, but if he wants to, he can save his jumps and use aerial hammers to recover. Kirby simply has way too many ways to avoid from getting on that edge.

By being spiked at mid-percentages where it has enough knock back to send Kirby down, but not enough to kill him. Sort of already mentioned that though. Unless you're asking how Kirby could get in the position to be spiked, in which case, all Falco has to do is get you off the stage or do the Chain Grab Spike.



You just answered why Falco's air game is punishable, Kirby has more priority. I started following along what you were saying about Falco's lasers forcing Kirby to air dodge at times, but then you start mentioning silent lasers? That deals with ground game, not air. When I say air game, I don't mean at short hop level, I think we're seeing "Air game" as two totally different things.




Again we're seeing "Air game" as two totally different things. I'm talking about the height of full jumps. Sure Falco can camp using lasers on the ground to stop aerial approaches but Kirby can camp spamming aerials in the air to make Falco approach where he's weak.

Up tilt, Usmash boosted or not, gatling combo, all involves ground game not air game.


So I still say Falco has the better ground game while Kirby as the better air game.

Priority isn't everything. Priority only matters when two players' attacks hit at the same time. As far as speed and quickness goes, I'm pretty confident that's Falco's moves come out a lot faster.

And just how does spamming aerials force Falco to approach in the air? If anything, wouldn't that encourage him to stay on the ground?

All the stuff at the end is anti-air. Unless you don't consider short hop level air. Which kind of doesn't make sense to me, but would be the source of confusion.

I never contested that Falco had a better aerial game. I'm just saying it's not as weak as you think.

 

[Deg222]

And just how does spamming aerials force Falco to approach in the air? If anything, wouldn't that encourage him to stay on the ground?

The opposite can be said about Falco camping. If Falco is staying back with lasers why would Kirby ever approach? See what I'm saying, aerial camping vs ground camping.

Anyways, about the aerials, Kirby's back air is just as fast as all of Falco's aerials but with more priority. I think we need more input from other people to get anywhere with this.

 

[Sakki]

I'm not too sure how much this would affect the match-up numbers, but I find it somewhat amusing that Falco can be forced to approach Kirby. All Kirby has to do is duck, let the lasers fly by, and wait for him to come over. Then from there it's who can predict/mindgame the other better.

 

[Dpete]

Actually, we have discussed that point before, with SH lasers theres little to no lag IIRC, leaving him available to approach very quickly after the lasers. Not a terrible threat, but still a threat, especially with good spacing by Falco. Ducking definitely does not render the lasers useless, I'm pretty sure any Falco main will agree with that.

 

[TwilightKirby]

I'm not too sure how much this would affect the match-up numbers, but I find it somewhat amusing that Falco can be forced to approach Kirby. All Kirby has to do is duck, let the lasers fly by, and wait for him to come over. Then from there it's who can predict/mindgame the other better.

This doesn't force kirby to approach, it just makes it so kirby isn't forced to approach falco. Falco could still just sit there all day and you could both just do nothing until time runs out.

Falco is welterweight, fast falling, and has bad recovery. He is highly capable of dying before kirby. He can not chain throw kirby, or at most get off a couple grabs. His killing options aren't any better than kirbys and kirby has the advantage in the air while their ground game is even. Falco can't edgeguard kirby too well and if he does try to it is possible for kirby to turn it around on falco.

I'm not trying to say falco has no chance of winning or anything like that. I don't think any of us are and thats where the main part of debate comes from. Falco users feel like that by us putting them at a disadvantage that its like saying its impossible to win. But what we really mean is that you are going to have to work harder to win than we do to beat you. I definitely believe this to be true as I was being sorta lazy and not bothering to space etc. as much against my friend that mains falco and he still had a difficult time to beat me and had to focus.

Falco is perfectly capable of winning this matchup but he definitely does have to work harder to win than kirby does.

 

[Deg222]

Actually, we have discussed that point before, with SH lasers theres little to no lag IIRC, leaving him available to approach very quickly after the lasers. Not a terrible threat, but still a threat, especially with good spacing by Falco. Ducking definitely does not render the lasers useless, I'm pretty sure any Falco main will agree with that.

Yep, as I mentioned lasers aren't completely nullified against Kirby. Since it auto cancels he has many mind game options with it.

 

[Red.Tide]

Gimping and edgeguarding aside, Kirby has more kill options and more powerful kill options than Falco. From center of FD, Kirby's fsmash kills Falco at lower %'s than any of Falco's moves kill Kirby. Kirby's stone, hitting Falco on the ground, kills him at about 95 (no DI). Since it is a vertical kill move, and its main use is to attack people who chase up into the air, it would normally kill even earlier than that.

Edit: bair outprioritizes Falco's ftilt!

 

[Dpete]

Falco is welterweight, fast falling, and has bad recovery. .

The bolded seems to be one of the favorite points for Falco mains to argue. His recovery option above the stage, Phantasm, isn't that bad. I think some believe it is easy to predict/gimp, but I believe Falco mains either disagree with this or accept it and argue that they can avoid that by sweetspotting it on the edge or just onto the stage (I think someone already brought this up). Nonetheless I think it needs some clarifying.

If you get a Falco under the stage, it seems like Kirby should be able to get the kill, but again I think most Falco's will argue that a good Falco won't let you get him under the stage.

 

[TwilightKirby]

Ok by bad I mean extremely predictable. It goes in a straight line and a set distance. Also falcos vertical recovery is worse than fox (shorter upb)

Also since falcos sideb is so fast it only hits for a short time and is easily ledge hogged. Since it goes a set distance you can also learn the spacing and use something like a hammer for a kill. Also all of his recovery options have startup lag.

Falcos second jump is decent but negated by the fact that he falls fast.

He's not as bad as wolf though lol.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Ok by bad I mean extremely predictable. It goes in a straight line and a set distance. Also falcos vertical recovery is worse than fox (shorter upb)

Also since falcos sideb is so fast it only hits for a short time and is easily ledge hogged. Since it goes a set distance you can also learn the spacing and use something like a hammer for a kill. Also all of his recovery options have startup lag.

Falcos second jump is decent but negated by the fact that he falls fast.

He's not as bad as wolf though lol.

Phantasm can be cancelled to shorter distances and allows Falco to glide while falling rather than go straight down, so when cancelled at the maximum distance, it actually allows Falco to cover more ground (or air). Even if you can predict it, it's still very hard to punish do to how quick it is. No good Falco will always recover at the same point all the time. They'll go for the sweet spot, they'll go for stage level, or they'll go right above the opponent. I find that it rarely happens for Falco to be put under the stage without a second jump.

Falco's recovery isn't really that terrible anymore. He can be in a bubble off the side of FD and still make it back with a Phantasm. Admittedly, compared to the rest of the Brawl cast it's pretty crappy, but it suffices enough to where it's not a huge liability like it was in Melee.

Also, nobody's ever addressed Falco's reflector. It's great at ending combos or stopping approaches. It's also a great tool for spacing. I'm not saying Kirby can't maneuver around it, but it exists and it's still an important part of Falco's game.

 

[Deg222]

Also, nobody's ever addressed Falco's reflector. It's great at ending combos or stopping approaches. It's also a great tool for spacing. I'm not saying Kirby can't maneuver around it, but it exists and it's still an important part of Falco's game.

I did mention it. It is one of the reasons why Falco's ground game is a little better. If Falco is not being predictable with it he can space himself extremely well with this move. The deflector can trip us as well slowing our ground game quite a bit.

 

[Colbert]

It seems I wrote a 9-11 paragraph post on gimping and nobody wants to respond. See the bottom of page 25.

The fact that Falco falls so quickly makes his side b recovery even more predictable because he usually is forced to use his second jump before the Phantasm. As soon as the second jump is made, it becomes clear at exactly what distance from the stage and height Falco will be using the Phantasm and Kirby can then prepare to edgeguard accordingly before the move is excuted.

In my previous post I stated that there were 2 good options for Falco to recover. First is to aim for the edge, and second is to aim just above the edge. Apparently, "Hawks go Caw" seems to believe that using Phantasm high above the opponents edge and "go right above the opponent" is a viable method to recover. While this method would probably be much more unexpected, it relies more on reacting after the Phantasm. Either way, the Kirby still understands the distance from the edge that Falco would be phantasming from, but the height is unexpected. All this means is that Kirby has to wait for the end of the Phantasm and Usmash or Fsmash from the landing area, which is pretty much a sure kill at modest percents. As I'm sure everyone knows, Falco does not get much DI at all when freefalling from a recovery move. Falco could do this from a distance that would have him stop above the edge, fall after the Phantasm, and grab the ledge but this is stopped the same way, or by edgeguarding, and is overall harder to do.

You do mention a good point with the cancelled Phantasm being another change that offers variation, but this doesn't require anything too different that Kirby would do to gimp the normal one otherwise. If Falco were able to extend the length of his Phantasm with the same quickness, then Kirby would have a problem with the miscalculation that he would expect from a normal Phantasm. Instead, it doesn't become much of a problem to deal with the small miscalculation that results from a slower short Phantasm or a slower, yet slightly longer Phantasm.

 

[Deg222]

I still say Falco is pretty hard to gimp. You mention if Falco goes to use forward b and land on the platform he would be easy to gimp with up smash, forward smash, etc. This is actually very hard to do because of the quickness of his forward b. It would be very hard to space yourself enough in time to gimp his recovery. Falco's forward b barely has any landing lag either making it hard to punish. Also, if Falco sees you spacing yourself to gimp his forward b, he'll just aim for that edge instead. It seems to me that the only chance we have at gimping Falco's recovery is off the platform and I won't further talk about that because I'm not experienced in that.

 

[Colbert]

I personally rarely have a problem attacking Falco in that situation. Falco can't really adjust his Phantasm too much, especially with how fast he falls. After he uses that mid-air jump you know exactly what height he will be Phantasming from and how far away he will be when using it.

To me, it would only be hard to space myself to put him in that situation if I am knocking him across the entire length of the stage onto the other side at a high percentage, in which he probably wouldn't have this as one of his options.

I don't know, maybe I just play Falcos too much?

 

[Demised]

Do any of you guys have vids of yourself playing against decent falcos? I'll post some after I play tonight. I have some vids of kirby v.s. dedede that are from tourney finals out here but im a week late =/

 

[Dpete]

Okay, so we're two days into the character that everyone wanted to talk about and discussion is already dead? This does not bode well for our weekly reviews...

 

[3xSwords]

Time to revive: Item>Scroll down>click max revive. Thread has fully recovered.

Anyway so it seems the recent discussion was about gimping Falco. I read the last 2-3 pages so I have an idea of what you guys were talking about.

About his phantasm, the easiest way to gimp a falco is to be right next to the edge of the stage. If he tries to recover above the stage use f-tilt. If he goes for ledge hug it. If he recovers high above just do watever. This requires that you are watching the falco at all times and will be able to react quickly enough to his relative position.

The problem with falco's sideB is getting down the timing to interrupt it. However, bair and f-tilt are both quick and strong enough to knock falco out of phantasm. Just attack half a second after he activates the phantasm. So the only problem with falco's recovery is phantasm and if you master hitting that then I guess falco's matchup gets easier.

Also consideration of using the d-angled f-smash finisher, as it will launch him in a lower trajectory which will make an easier edgeguarding situation. All in all falco isn't that hard for me, usually b/c Gonzo combo is guaranteed 40% which really helps.

 

[Ills]

Query: What would you say is the best stage to play against Falco with?

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Smashville, its small so Falco will be spending a lot of time recovering which is bad for Falco plus it would b diificult for him to camp

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

i feel as though Falco is the second most difficult Spacy to play just cuz his ground attacks space a little better and his Fair is pretty solid also. However Falco's biggest flaw is his weight and hard time recovering. If ur good at timing ur aerials off the edge u can gimp them quite easily. even if ur not u can mind game them so well when they are trying to use their Forward B to recover that its dangerous for the Falco player. If he chooses the edge he has to b careful no get edge guarded by a fast hug. If chooses the stage he has landing lag which could mean an aerial hammer or Fsmash to the from behind due to a spot dodge or roll

 

[TwilightKirby]

I like rainbow cruise against falco just cause he can get gimped easy plus easy uthrow kills at some points. Also no camping on a moving stage. And its nice cause kirby can cut corners and the opponents are forced to approach kirby if he is ahead of them since the stage moves.

Frigate orpheon is good since there is no ledge on one side falco HAS to recover onto the stage, making his recovery even more predictable and if he is forced to use his upb he is very vulnerable. Just try to focus on knocking him off the side with no ledge.

 

[Dpete]

So I did a little digging for Falco vs. Kirby vids, and found this interesting match between some Japanese players. Take note of how dominate Falco was with a campy, projectile based game, but when he had to get close range for the kill he had some problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKs97nDDiVU

 

[Colbert]

Kirby lost because of his stupid approach game. If he would've ducked under the lasers, he would've won by punishing one of Falco's reckless Phantasms. He had this same problem at the beginning, and his approach game basically consisted of stupid dash grabs and dash attacks.

Nice fsmash kill at about 80 percent in the middle of the stage by Kirby for his 2nd kill.

 

[MK26]

In these Japanese games, they're much more aggressive onstage, but it doesn't translate to shorter games because they don't chase offstage. Not once did Kirby go out there and attempt to gimp Falco out of his Phantasm. He could have easily hit Falco with a shorthopped d-air to cover both a ground landing and a ledge-grab.

And right off the bat after the Kirby's second death, he could have gone for a Kirbycide ftw. But he didn't. And he definitely should have tried to inhale Falco when he was spamming the Phantasm onstage.

Also, too much spotdodge and not enough shield or duck.

All in all, I must say this is a pretty even matchup. Kirby has a better chance of capitalizing on Falco's mistakes, but at high level play he won't be making those mistakes. 50-50 sounds good to me.