Kirby's Matchup Rankings

[storm92]

Yay for double posting, but this actually makes sense as it's bringing up a char discussion.
Sheik is a tough one for me personally to place her on a scale.
She's very fast, has quick low-lag moves with little knockback, and combo fairly well. She has better range than Kirby with the needles, albeit they can be stopped easily by a shield, and can play a defensive game well. The problem for her obviously isn't building up damage, but instead getting the kill, especially against Kirby. She can only kill at 150%+ with smashes and then 120% with Vanish, so most Sheik mains go for edgeguarding kills, but this doesn't work well on Kirby with multiple jumps and good aerials.
On the other hand, Kirby can approach her in the air fairly well with some Bairs, but we need to watch for her Bair and Nair as they have longer/as long range. Due to our lightness and floatiness, she can't combo us as well as others, but the same works for us with our throw combos.
Due to the fact she'll have more trouble getting kills than usual, I would have to put Sheik at a 60:40 disadvantage against Kirby.

 

[Dpete]

Alright, I added Falcon, Ganon, Sonic, and Yoshi ratings to the OP. Last few characters:

Peach
Samus
Sheik

 

[drSuper]

I recall being juggled by sheiks f-tilt and u-tilt for quite some damage, and from what I remember it seemed like kirby's moves had the upper hand. However sheiks upsmash can probably kill kirby around 80%....I'll test these things tomorrow
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I believe kirby can combo samus pretty well at low %'s. Then I usually try to steal her B for some good mindgames and possible damage. This is usually a long match for some reason which would lead me to believe they are almost even
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Peach, I'm not sure about since I haven't played a good one but I think it could be a tough matchup

 

[storm92]

I recall being juggled by sheiks f-tilt and u-tilt for quite some damage, and from what I remember it seemed like kirby's moves had the upper hand. However sheiks upsmash can probably kill kirby around 80%....I'll test these things tomorrow
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I believe kirby can combo samus pretty well at low %'s. Then I usually try to steal her B for some good mindgames and possible damage. This is usually a long match for some reason which would lead me to believe they are almost even
_______

Peach, I'm not sure about since I haven't played a good one but I think it could be a tough matchup

Sheik's Utilt doesn't juggle all too well, Ftilt is the only real threat for other characters. Kirby not so much, I find she usually gets one or two off then I'm out. Just SDI the hits and DI afterwards, it's not difficult to get out of.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Kirby can escape Sheik's tilt combo with Smash DI and otherwise ***** Shiek. Sheik is like play against Fox except Sheik can't finish u. I played ChuDat's Shiek 8 times maybe and didn't come close to losing one. The matchup should be 60-40 in my opinion. She gets combo'd across the stage and can get gimped very easily

 

[Dpete]

Man, discussion is dead on these last characters...

Sheik: 60-40
Samus: 60-40?
Peach: 50-50

After we get these last few figured out, I will compare our matchups against the current matchup chart, then propose the changes needed. I'm sure we'll meet some resistance, and as we do, I'll try to update this thread so we can provide counter-arguments to support our rankings, or edit them as needed.

Also, I have considered turning this into a weekly matchup thread like many other forums use. This way we could go back and review each character, examining every detail, so we could have clear facts to present when defending our ratings. It would also allow us to make changes as the meta-game evolves.

 

[Deg222]

Those match ups sound right for now. Sorry I haven't been saying anything but I don't really know these match ups too well.

It's probably best to do what you said, go from week to week and talk about each character. List advantages and disadvantages and such.

 

[TwilightKirby]

Those matchups seem right from the little experience I have playing those characters

 

[Brahma]

I still think Ganon is a little closer to even. Once Kirby is in the 50%s you have to start watching out for the KOs. Kirby does have a good approach game vs. Ganon, but all Ganon needs is one or two mistakes that he can punish to put Kirby at KO %. >B is also tough for Kirby since Ganon can hit Kirby with a lot of good traps afterwards.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Samus i think is in Samus's favor 40-60, if u've ever played Forte's Samus u would know y i say this, Samus has range on Kirby faster aerials and a downair that autocancels and spike's like no other, Kirby can't recover against it. It has more range than his upair.

 

[Dpete]

but all Ganon needs is one or two mistakes that he can punish to put Kirby at KO %.

This also works in reverse. Due to Kirby's great combo game a mistake by Ganon could lead into a larger combo that puts him into killing percents.

having one thing in ganons favor makes him a 70:30 for kirby

I like how you twist my words so . First, I think Ganon has two advantages (Power and Kirby's light weight). Second, I think those two things are greater than say three smaller things, making it 60-40. I'm going to reword my ranking definitions to make them a little more abstract; that way they can deal with things like this.

Samus i think is in Samus's favor 40-60, if u've ever played Forte's Samus u would know y i say this, Samus has range on Kirby faster aerials and a downair that autocancels and spike's like no other, Kirby can't recover against it. It has more range than his upair.

That's interesting. Are you sure your not just basing it off of a lack of experience against Samus combined with an excellent Samus player?

 

[storm92]

I agree with Gonzo on Samus.
I've never played Forte, but a good competitive friend of mine has a very good defensive Samus. He makes it hard to approach, we can't duck under projectiles due to the homing missiles, and she has better range than us. Zair is very tough to deal with too with no-lag on landing.

 

[Delta Z]

But doesn't Samus have trouble killing? Wouldn't that let Kirby survive longer?

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

thats what u would think, Samus doesn't have all the trouble killing b/c a downsmash or dair from samus is serious death plus Samus's moves force people to get hit off the stage where Samus camps the edge waiting for the eventual Dair. Plus Zair is just ridiculous u can't even duck under it

lol Dr Peterson, every stock i lost to Forte's samus was by Spike i won one match out of 20 lol he spiked me more than Meep's Marth ever has and Meep's signature kills is dair lol

 

[Dpete]

Ouch. For some reason I just found it odd to see Kirby being at a disadvantage to these high tier characters, oh and btw one of the worst characters in the game. Underestimating FTL.

That wraps things up for our first evaluations of Kirby's matchups. I intend to start a weekly "Character Review" to go in-depth on each character, beginning this Sunday. If you have any more questions, comments, or concerns about our initial rankings, let's try to get them worked out before then.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

i can't wait for Falco week lol let me get vids at CH3 and we'll def have some things to talk about

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

I agree with Samus, and i think Kirby is 40-60 against Lucario, they are so annoying, i have much trouble to defeat one in my friend's house, and he is claerly worst than me...

 

[drSuper]

I like the idea of a weekly character review. I suggest you start with the more common match ups kirby can expect to see. ex. Since I have played countless snakes I now know more about pwning them w/ kirb
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I also play against a good falco regularly gonzo, so losing to falcos shouldn't be an issue for anyone who mains kirby anymore
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Also, I have decided rather then getting my *** handed to me every time I play a decent G&W just to switch to fox for that matchup. And I'm starting to think the same for ROB unless we can come up with a good enough strategy

 

[Dpete]

Lucario:

Possibly something around a 45:55 in favor of Lucario?
Lucario has better long-range, as Aura Sphere>Final Cutter spam, but we can somewhat remedy that with Inhale.
Overall, Kirby and Lucario are close to the same speed in dashing, we're faster in the air, and we have a much better recovery.
Another thing is that due to his floatiness, Kirby can't pull off his good throw combos which work wonders on the heavier ones.
The main problem I've had when fighting Lucario is Kirby's light weight and easiness to be juggled by his Utilts and Fairs into sideB combos, and overall Lucario's superior range due to Aura. Almost all his smashes can outrange Kirby, so I've had trouble getting that finishing blow when Lucario is most dangerous at like mid-100's%.

I'd put Kirby having the advantage over lucario 6.5-3.5.

Lucario gets combo'ed and edge guarded very very easily against Kirby and dont see Lucario having to much of an advantage against him except for on the ground and even then its not by much. I'll play Azen this next coming weekend and see if my opinion changes.

Dk 60-40. He kills Kirby real early off but Kirby can combo and edge guard him very easily. annnd my rides here or id write more

About Lucario:

Kirby and Lucario are actually pretty similar. Both are floaty, both are good in the air, and both are combo maniacs. Kirby dies earlier, but is a smaller target and is more powerful until Luc gets over 90-ish percent. Seems just about even here. 50-50.

I guess I'll go ahead and talk about Lucario since he is my second.

Pros
+Average weight class
+Underwhelmingly weak until he reaches 100%
+Among the worst ^B's in the game
+Pretty big target
+Not to difficult to combo with subtle mindgames

Cons
-Crazy range
-Good projectile
-WoP -> Aura sphere gimp
-Lagging hitboxes (Usmash I'm looking at you!!!)
-Powerful if not taken out early
-Has no problem comboing Kirby

Overall i do believe that this match is dead even. Kirby can steal Aura Sphere to give him a more reliable projectile, they can both combo each other, and Lucario's power vs. Kirby's gimping. The only that can set these two apart and maybe give Kirby a slight advantage is the ease that Luke is gimped. Extremespeed is actually quite slow and deals no damage so he's pretty much profit for Kirby. Lucario does get overwhelming power once he reaches a certain %, but that is not likely to happen since Kirby will more than likely gimp all 3 of his stocks.

This pretty much sums up my reasons for the 45-55 on Lucario. Only reason I didn't list it as neutral was if Kirby can't gimp and Lucario gets to high %, it seems he has an advantage.

 

[SheerMadness]

lol at 40-60 against samus

Samus doesn't have an advantage on Kirby.

And yes I've played good samus'. I used to play Rohins all the time.

 

[Dpete]

lol at 40-60 against samus

Samus doesn't have an advantage on Kirby.

And yes I've played good samus'. I used to play Rohins all the time.

Care to elaborate? Counter arguments to previous statements would be appreciated.

 

[pnoid]

even as a kirby main i think these are a little too much in factor or kirby in some of the scnearios

 

[Blackbelt]

even as a kirby main i think these are a little too much in factor or kirby in some of the scnearios

which ones in particular?

 

[Dpete]

We've had at least a little discussion on every character, and some major discussions for the characters that are problematic or recurrent. If you have questions about over-rated matchups, I'm sure I can dig up arguments to back up our ratings (see post on last page about Lucario...)

Also, I'd like to hear from the community on characters they would like to discuss. I pretty much know which character I'm going to do first, but I want to hear who you want to do next. Characters that need some attention, IMO, include Falco, Wolf, Meta Knight, and even Toon Link or Lucario.

And finally, wewt for stickyz.

 

[drSuper]

Honestly I don't think toon link nor wolf is an issue atm

My propsed list - rob > g&w > marth > snake > meta > etc...

idk I just feel we should focus on the ones that we already know give us a problem. These are even the ones agreed upon as our worst four matchups. Everyone would benefit more from something like this

 

[Dpete]

drSuper, I think you have the wrong idea behind the point of the weekly review. It is not to go back to the matchups and discuss how to deal with them, if you would like info on that see Maraphy's thread. Rather, the point is to go back and make sure we looked at all points regarding a matchup to ensure we made the correct decision on the matchup. We went pretty in-depth on characters such as Snake, Marth, and ROB earlier in the thread, so I don't think their rankings need any immediate attention. Rankings that we briefly discussed or highly debatable rankings (...*cough* Falco *cough*) deserve the priority.

 

[Deg222]

Yeah, the Falco match up simply cannot be agreed between the Kirby users and the Falco users. We feel we can combo them very easily therefor having an advantage while they believe they can camp and spike us. *shrugs*

 

[lilthunder91013]

i have only played a couple of good falcos but IMO kirby can beat him pretty easily because he can be easily comboed and is not that hard to gimp except the side b thing (not really sure what its called). The only problem i usally have is carelessly rolling into the fsmash but other then that its never really that bad. I would have to say 65-35 in favor of kirby.

 

[storm92]

i have only played a couple of good falcos but IMO kirby can beat him pretty easily because he can be easily comboed and is not that hard to gimp except the side b thing (not really sure what its called). The only problem i usally have is carelessly rolling into the fsmash but other then that its never really that bad. I would have to say 65-35 in favor of kirby.

It's called Falco Phantasm.
And yeah, Kirby does have an advantage over Falco. The blaster is pretty much nullified by crouching until he has to approach, so they can't play the camping game like usual. Seeing as we can pull off our throw combos on him fairly easily, as well as being able to gimp his recovery (Phantasm included, it's just harder to outprioritize and time it correctly) it's not a very tough match-up. He can't chain grab us and we have close to the same range besides the Blaster.
Fsmash isn't bad at all unless the opponent times it well and you aren't keeping up spacing.

 

[Dpete]

Wait, storm92, in the Official Matchup Chart thread you're arguing Kirby/Falco is neutral, but here you claim Kirby is at an advantage? Flip-flop plx?

It seems clear to me everyone wants to debate this Falco matchup. I definitely will include him in the weekly discussion very soon.

And for the record, I think its neutral.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I'm gonna play some Falco's hopefully at CH3 i'll make sure to record the matches and we can discuss them on the boards

 

[Delta Z]

...while they believe they can camp and spike us. *shrugs*

Spike Kirby? Blasphemy!

...Jokes aside, Kirby is really tough to spike. He can use one or two jumps to cancel and still have enough to make it back up. And Storm already said how easy it is to avoid the blaster.

 

[Dpete]

So, I compiled a list of the differences between the rankings on the current matchup chart and the rankings we gave to matchups. The chart's current rankings are first, followed by our rankings.

• Captain Falcon:
  Advantage - Large Advantage​
• Charizard:
  Neutral - Advantage​
• Donkey Kong:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Falco:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• Fox:
  Neutral - Advantage​
• Ike:
  Disadvantage - Advantage​
• Ivysaur:
  Neutral - Advantage​
• Luigi:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Mario:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Meta Knight:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• Ness:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• Peach:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Pikachu:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• Pit:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• R.O.B.:
  Advantage - Disadvantage​
• Squirtle:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Toon Link:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​
• Wolf:
  Neutral - Advantage​
• Yoshi:
  Advantage - Neutral​
• Zelda:
  Disadvantage - Neutral​

Woooo long post. I was trying to make it easy to read...

 

[lilthunder91013]

That post was kind of confusing would u care to elaborate on ur setup

 

[storm92]

Wait, storm92, in the Official Matchup Chart thread you're arguing Kirby/Falco is neutral, but here you claim Kirby is at an advantage? Flip-flop plx?

It seems clear to me everyone wants to debate this Falco matchup. I definitely will include him in the weekly discussion very soon.

And for the record, I think its neutral.

55-45 in Kirby's favor is my belief.
On the match-up chart I was simply agreeing with the person who said it should be less in Falco's favor, seeing as Kirby has a slight advantage, but so slight we consider it neutral.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Kirby's advantage is more than that. I think time will tell on this one. We just need a lot of Kirby vs Falco matches

 

[Kiwikomix]

You should prolly put Kirby vs Kirby = neutral in there, just so that you can make a detailed analysis for how to fight Kirby later. I'm sure it sounds useless, but trust me, there is always a lot of strategy in character dittos.

 

[Dpete]

You should prolly put Kirby vs Kirby = neutral in there, just so that you can make a detailed analysis for how to fight Kirby later. I'm sure it sounds useless, but trust me, there is always a lot of strategy in character dittos.

Are you sure it's not 100-0? Kirby is going to win, after all

Like I said earlier, I'm trying to avoid discussions on how to win matchups, but rather how difficult they are. Though I agree dittos involve a lot of strategy and really show a person's skill level, I think that discussion would be more appropriate elsewhere.

 

[drSuper]

drSuper, I think you have the wrong idea behind the point of the weekly review. It is not to go back to the matchups and discuss how to deal with them, if you would like info on that see Maraphy's thread. Rather, the point is to go back and make sure we looked at all points regarding a matchup to ensure we made the correct decision on the matchup. We went pretty in-depth on characters such as Snake, Marth, and ROB earlier in the thread, so I don't think their rankings need any immediate attention. Rankings that we briefly discussed or highly debatable rankings (...*cough* Falco *cough*) deserve the priority.

gotcha, I'll try and stick to the topic at hand

In which case I will say that falco can spike kirby with no chance of recovery. Falcos dair has a sweet spot and if it lands even kirby is SOL

 

[storm92]

gotcha, I'll try and stick to the topic at hand

In which case I will say that falco can spike kirby with no chance of recovery. Falcos dair has a sweet spot and if it lands even kirby is SOL

...we have multiple jumps and upB to recover with.
Meteor canceling is not that hard in Brawl, and it takes us to be at a fairly high % to have no chance of recovering.