Kirby's Matchup Rankings

[Red.Tide]

His priority and reach is a big deal. With Bair and Ftilt alone, he can keep Kirby out of attack range. If DK blocks an aerial from Kirby, he can punish everything but Fair. It's very hard to zone someone who outreaches you. If you jump in and try to space and hit him with the tip of your aerials, his Bair will beat yours out everytime. Kirby has a hard time getting close enough to DK to hit him.

Kirby's punch isn't that great. I don't know how much "easier" he can charge it. Again, range is an issue. Kirby's Punch has just about as much range as his Dtilt. In order to connect the punch, he either has to get inside DK's range, which is unlikely, or use it as a counter or sorts, timing the SA frames correctly to beat out an attack from DK, which is doable, but you still run in to range issues here, and a good DK should know how to deal with punch.

Kirby can suck DK up, and spit him out near the bottom of the screen. DK, with little vertical recovery, dies.

 

[Deg222]

A good DK will NOT stand next to the edge ready for Kirby to just take him in. Don't say "Well I'll just swallow him when he's recovering." This won't happen either, he will out range your inhale ability every time with his up B. The only way to gimp Donkey Kong is to down B him. If you want to gimp him in any other way, if you have to be spot on, avoiding his super armor frames, which is very hard.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Thank You Deg222, DK is a tough opponent period. I do know that neutral B's superarmor can counter DK's Neutral B

 

[storm92]

DK's rating right now of perfectly neutral seems about right.
If it changed at all it should probably be 45:55 in DK's favor. Very slightly, but I think he has a small advantage.

Since we're on the topic of Charizard, let's list out each advantage of the characters.

Charizard
-Better overall range than Kirby with tilts, smashes, and Flamethrower
-Can kill Kirby at low %'s overall with several attacks
-Multiple jumps and glide make it harder than usual for Kirby to gimp
-Can build up damage quickly against Kirby
-Much faster on the ground dashing

Kirby
-Can utilize Charizard's large size to combo easily and edgeguard
-Has a much better recovery than Charizard and from that can usually recover from edgeguarding attempts
-Small size and can dodge some attacks
-Can use neutralB to make up for disadvantage in range
-Has a longer-range projectile with Final Cutter
-Has several gimping options

I'd have to stick with my original statement of 60:40-ish.

 

[Dpete]

Red.Tide has recently drawn some attention towards Kirby's matchups and corrections needed on the chart, but was met with some resistance. I encourage everyone to go to the main thread in Brawl Tactical Discussion and help support his arguments. Link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4768280#post4768280

I also added the "Ranking Definitions" post I made above to the OP. Hopefully that clarifies some things in people's minds.

Back into discussion. I'd say we almost have a good rating on PT. What does everyone think of the Squirtle matchup? My assumption was that it was in Kirby's favor, but that was just a personal bias without any facts.

 

[Blackbelt]

Red.Tide has recently drawn some attention towards Kirby's matchups and corrections needed on the chart, but was met with some resistance. I encourage everyone to go to the main thread in Brawl Tactical Discussion and help support his arguments. Link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4768280#post4768280

I also added the "Ranking Definitions" post I made above to the OP. Hopefully that clarifies some things in people's minds.

Back into discussion. I'd say we almost have a good rating on PT. What does everyone think of the Squirtle matchup? My assumption was that it was in Kirby's favor, but that was just a personal bias without any facts.

As I said about Squirtle, they're even while in the air, and both of them are among the lightest fighters in Brawll, allowing them to KO eachother easily, making it a very even matchup.

 

[Deg222]

Red.Tide has recently drawn some attention towards Kirby's matchups and corrections needed on the chart, but was met with some resistance. I encourage everyone to go to the main thread in Brawl Tactical Discussion and help support his arguments. Link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4768280#post4768280

I also added the "Ranking Definitions" post I made above to the OP. Hopefully that clarifies some things in people's minds.

Oh man did I leave a post. Some of things that guy was saying just showed how much he didn't know about Kirby.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Red.Tide has recently drawn some attention towards Kirby's matchups and corrections needed on the chart, but was met with some resistance. I encourage everyone to go to the main thread in Brawl Tactical Discussion and help support his arguments. Link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4768280#post4768280

I also added the "Ranking Definitions" post I made above to the OP. Hopefully that clarifies some things in people's minds.

Back into discussion. I'd say we almost have a good rating on PT. What does everyone think of the Squirtle matchup? My assumption was that it was in Kirby's favor, but that was just a personal bias without any facts.

I posted this thread on the Ike boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4770507#post4770507

Lets see how it goes

 

[Dpete]

I posted this thread on the Ike boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4770507#post4770507

Lets see how it goes

This definitely won't prove anything. There are just too many arguments one could present about the results you find, even if you do completely own every single one of them.

 

[storm92]

This definitely won't prove anything. There are just too many arguments one could present about the results you find, even if you do completely own every single one of them.

Agreed.
I'll help out also in the arguments on the Match-Up thread once the guy who's doing all the arguments responds.

On topic now with Squirtle.
I'd say it's a fairly even match-up. Squirtle and Kirby are pretty close to even in the air, but we have the upper hand with not being able to be gimped easily and being able to take him out easily due to his lightness.
Squirtle is much faster than Kirby on the ground, but we just mainly have to focus on the air game where we usually are a bit more comfortable.
Both characters have a ranged attack, only ours does damage.
I'd say 50-50 or 55-45 in Kirby's favor. He may have an advantage, no matter how slight it may be.

 

[Deg222]

Alright guys, seems like we need to talk about more people!

What's everybody's opinions on the Mario bros.?

Anyone have any experience against these two guys? I know I really haven't...

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I've played against Boss's Mario AKA Suspt and found that cape utterly ***** Kirby's upB. I've even reverse upB'd so cape would make me face the right direction but cape still killed me.

 

[jiovanni007]

I do fight this guy's Mario on a pretty consistent basis. I may say Mario has the slight advantage (45-55) since he has an easier time approaching Kirby and fireballs. Mario's bair >>> Kirby's bair. Kirby's has superior priority, but this match shows that even a little landing lag can be easily punished. Kirby's SHFFbair has some noticeable landing lag whereas Mario's does not. Unless Kirby's connects, Mario lands with no lag and hits you with a dsmash or fsmash. Fireballs become an annoyance, but overall the advantage goes to Mario.

 

[Red.Tide]

Yeah, I would say Mario has an advantage. His bair is just too good.

I don't know about Luigi. I haven't played any good Luigis, but I would think his recovery could be gimped, and also that Kirby's fair outranges Luigi's? I don't think his fireballs would be as annoying; if done from the air, Kirby could duck them.

 

[storm92]

I agree Mario should be 45-55. Good Mario's are a pretty tough match-up for Kirby, but I've only fought 2 of them (not 2 matches, 2 people) so I don't know that well.

Luigi I somehow fight all the time. It's pretty close to what Red.Tide said ^. Luigi's fireballs aren't as good because they're not ground-hugging and we can just crouch and avoid them. With neutralB we also have the ability to steal that range and then start throwing back fireballs at him, keeping him on the defensive as he has to either jump/sidestep/shield out of the way. The strongest thing about Weegee is his lagless aerial game, but we do better in the air with outranging his Fair, coming very close to his Bair's range with ours, having the rock, and having multiple jumps to get out of any combos he tries to string together. His Green Missile is the hardest thing to gimp, but a well-timed FF'd Dair can usually gimp his lackluster vertical recovery. On the ground, we also dominate with a much better dash attack and minorly better tilts. He's not too heavy so he's not hard to kill, but he can kill us pretty early with his Fsmash when fresh. Overall though, Kirby can use his own projectile against him better than he can use it, can pull off some throw combos, and can beat him on the air and ground.
Somewhere like 60-40, I would think.

 

[Deg222]

Seems right to me, Luigi doesn't have a very good approach while Mario does. Luigi just slides all over the place, so he needs to camp more with aerials it would seem to me.

 

[Dpete]

All right, seems to me most agree on:

Mario: 45-55
Luigi: 60-40

Let's stay in the same game series and discuss two new characters: Peach and Yoshi.

 

[DMG]

I know you guys are talking about other characters now, but I think you skimmed over Wario vs Kirby too fast.

I think it is 45-55 or maybe 40-60 in Wario's favor. Kirby has some combo's on him but nothing like what he can do to DK or Dedede or some of the bigger/heavier characters. Kirby is light, which doesn't help him survive for too long against Wario's kill moves.

In the air, Kirby beats Wario in range but Wario beats him in maneuverability and most of his aerials come out faster. On the ground, Kirby has more range, while Wario has the more powerful and faster options.

Wario definitely kills better than Kirby, considering his Fsmash does more knockback, comes out faster, AND has SA frames compared to Kirby's Fsmash or Hammer (ground and air hammer). Uair and a 3/4 or 4/5 charged Waft from Wario will send Kirby flying as well and they are all faster than any of Kirby's own kill moves.

(From the middle of FD, his almost fully charged Waft kills Mario at 52% without DI. Think about how quick that would kill Kirby, especially if you are closer to the edge instead of dead center.)

Wario is actually somewhat hard to edgeguard. He's kinda like Snake, where if he recovers quickly enough then it's a lot harder to spike him or gimp him, except Wario has tons more maneuverability while recovering than Snake. If you catch him below the edge, he's not completely helpless since he does have air dodging, although it's still not that safe.

Kirby has a bit of trouble killing Wario, since his kill moves aren't too fast, Wario is a pretty heavy guy, and he is also "slippery" with his evasive abilities. Even though it is hard to effectively edgeguard Kirby, Wario kills fast anyways, so his recovery doesn't compensate enough for how early he can be killed.

I just think Wario has a slight advantage, nothing large like what Snake or Marth have, but definitely not even.

Edit: Sorry if my points aren't organized very well, I'm feeling a bit doozy.

 

[Dpete]

In the air, Kirby beats Wario in range but Wario beats him in maneuverability and most of his aerials come out faster. On the ground, Kirby has more range, while Wario has the more powerful and faster options.

I am a little curious about the aerial matchup. You say Wario's moves come out faster, yet reviewing previous posts by Kirby mains they tend to think Kirby out-prioritizes him in the air.

Good points, it does seem we have only skimmed the surface of Wario. I wonder how many other characters we need to reconsider, looking at how many revisions I've made in just the past day . I'm thinking once we finish the chart, we may go back and review each matchup weekly or biweekly, like several other forums are doing.

 

[TwilightKirby]

I think you guys skipped over luigis advantages against kirby.

A good luigi player will always save their second jump. Even if you go for a dair a good luigi player will usually counter with a faster aerial and pretty much all of luigis aerials are faster than kirbys dair. You can't ledehog him either as he will have a saved jump downb and upb to help him recover vertically. Also luigis aerials have lots of priority, especially his sex kick. And his down b will beat all of your aerials, the only things that beat his down b are fsmash rock, final cutter, hammer, and maybe inhale. Of course you can grab him out of this, but the main time I see luigi players use this is to counter kirbys aerials.

Also he is pretty much just as capable at killing kirby as kirby is capable of killing him. He can get early kos with a jab to upb if you arent careful, and if he isnt careful you can get him with a well placed ground hammer. Also both of you have difficulty comboing each other due luigi having his sex kick and down b for tons of priority in the air and luigi slides a lot when hit making it impossible to down tilt to fsmash. Kirby is also small floats and has a good aerial game as well. This fight is very even and feels like whoever punishes more mistakes wins.

 

[~Shao~]

Luigi's sex kick is fast, has priority, disrupts combos AND kills. His other's aerials are fast, he has an ok ground game, I won't say more because Twilight said pretty much everything. I agree with Twilight, it's pretty much an even match-up, maybe slightly in Kirby's favor.

 

[DMG]

I am a little curious about the aerial matchup. You say Wario's moves come out faster, yet reviewing previous posts by Kirby mains they tend to think Kirby out-prioritizes him in the air.

Good points, it does seem we have only skimmed the surface of Wario. I wonder how many other characters we need to reconsider, looking at how many revisions I've made in just the past day . I'm thinking once we finish the chart, we may go back and review each matchup weekly or biweekly, like several other forums are doing.

Wario's moves come out faster (EX: It takes 3 frames for a hitbox to appear for his Nair. Kirby's aerials take longer for a hitbox to come out, but once they are out, they generally have more range than most of Wario's aerials.)

So if you both did an aerial at exactly the same time, Wario would win because he is generally faster. If Kirby has a bair already out or another aerial out and active, then Wario can't just try to come by and beat out Kirby's aerials with his own because Kirby's usually have more range.

I don't mind waiting a few weeks to discuss this more in depth, I know you guys probably have more important matchups to discuss than this particular one.

 

[Deg222]

I found several things wrong with your post Dr.Mario:

In the air, Kirby beats Wario in range but Wario beats him in maneuverability and most of his aerials come out faster.

Wario might move faster in the air, but Wario's aerials do not come out faster, they're actually about the same speed as Kirby's.

Forward Air: Kirby's has more priority while Wario's forward air doesn't come out that much faster.
Back Air: Both back airs come out at about the same speed, but Kirby has more priority on his.
Up air: Kirby's is a little slower but covers more above him while Wario's doesn't cover as much. Although Wario's up air does have KO capability.
Down air: Kirby has a little more priority on his while Wario's down air doesn't come out that much faster.

On the ground, Kirby has more range, while Wario has the more powerful and faster options.

I'm not sure about faster options and they both have about the same power on the ground.

Wario definitely kills better than Kirby, considering his Fsmash does more knockback, comes out faster, AND has SA frames compared to Kirby's Fsmash or Hammer (ground and air hammer). Uair and a 3/4 or 4/5 charged Waft from Wario will send Kirby flying as well and they are all faster than any of Kirby's own kill moves.

Wario's forward smash is not stronger than Kirby's. You ever get hit by a non stalled forward smash by Kirby? It can kill Wario easily at 100%. Yeah Wario's forward smash has SA frames, but it has a bad after lag to it as does Kirby's. The only other thing I can say, is you're probably right about Wario getting an easier kill in the air with an up air. The only thing that can guarantee a kill on Kirby, is a forward smash, back air, or a forward tilt. A good Kirby player would be careful not to get caught by Wario's up air because Kirby can simply fly.

Kirby has a bit of trouble killing Wario, since his kill moves aren't too fast, Wario is a pretty heavy guy, and he is also "slippery" with his evasive abilities. Even though it is hard to effectively edgeguard Kirby, Wario kills fast anyways, so his recovery doesn't compensate enough for how early he can be killed.

The way I see it, both Kirby and Wario can kill each other just as fast. Each character has a hard time gimping each other. What you said is simply not an advantage for Wario because both characters have overall the same KO power.

 

[DMG]

Wario might move faster in the air, but Wario's aerials do not come out faster, they're actually about the same speed as Kirby's.

Uair takes 8 frames, Nair takes 3 frames, and Fair takes 5 frames. (Don't have the frame data for Dair but it is noticeably faster than Kirby's.) Trust me when I say Wario has the faster aerials.

Forward Air: Kirby's has more priority while Wario's forward air doesn't come out that much faster.
Back Air: Both back airs come out at about the same speed, but Kirby has more priority on his.
Up air: Kirby's is a little slower but covers more above him while Wario's doesn't cover as much. Although Wario's up air does have KO capability.
Down air: Kirby has a little more priority on his while Wario's down air doesn't come out that much faster.



I'm not sure about faster options and they both have about the same power on the ground.

Fair: Wario's comes out faster but has less range and only one hitbox, while Kirby has the 3 kicks.
Bair: I think Kirby's is actually faster here. Range is about the same I think.
Uair: Wario's is faster and kills pretty darn good. It can also juggle Kirby if he isn't on his toes. Uair for Wario has surprising priority, it might even have more than Kirby's.
Dair: Wario's is noticeably faster but has less range and doesn't last as long.

Dtilt is 5 frames, Grab is 6 frames, and Jab is 8 frames (just a few examples for his moves, obviously Wario has more than 3 moves on the ground). They might be about the same speed on the ground, but it is certainly clear that Wario is more powerful.

Wario's forward smash is not stronger than Kirby's. You ever get hit by a non stalled forward smash by Kirby? It can kill Wario easily at 100%. Yeah Wario's forward smash has SA frames, but it has a bad after lag to it as does Kirby's. The only other thing I can say, is you're probably right about Wario getting an easier kill in the air with an up air. The only thing that can guarantee a kill on Kirby, is a forward smash, back air, or a forward tilt. A good Kirby player would be careful not to get caught by Wario's up air because Kirby can simply fly.

Yes, I am almost certain Wario's is stronger than Kirby's, go test them both on a Mario at the center of FD and you will see that Wario kills him sooner than Kirby does (can't test it myself right now). 3/4 charged Waft and probably even a half Waft are stronger than any of Kirby's kill moves and Uair is stronger than Kirby's Upsmash.

Kirby does have to worry a bit about Wario juggling him since he is floaty, but he does have more choices to get down safely than a lot of characters.

The way I see it, both Kirby and Wario can kill each other just as fast. Each character has a hard time gimping each other. What you said is simply not an advantage for Wario because both characters have overall the same KO power.

Wario kills sooner because of two factors:

1. Kirby is lighter, thus he dies at an earlier % than Wario if they were hit by the same attack.
2. Wario's kill moves are stronger. Even if they were trading hits for the entire match, Wario would probably win because he kills quicker and he can generally survive longer due to his weight.

Kirby's ability to recover successfully most of the time is nullified by the fact that he will more than likely be dying somewhat quickly. What good is it to have an awesome recovery if you are dying before you reach 90-100% damage every time? Wario, on the other hand, generally is heavy enough to survive and make use of his recovering abilities more often than Kirby.

Also, since Wario kills great off the top with Uair, that also makes Kirby's recovery a bit less useful. Having a good recovery won't save you from a vertical kill (same for Kirby killing Wario vertically.)

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I believe on the ground and in the air they are even perfect 50-50. However i believe its in recovery where Kirby gains the advantage. Motorcycle makes Wario predictable and vulnerable leaving him for an easy Inhale and spit out farther away from the stage or an easy downair for the win. Also Kirby's downB lets him get straight to the edge when falling so it cancels out the threat of Wario's upair.

My opinion against Wario 55-45 for Kirby

 

[Deg222]

Uair: Wario's is faster and kills pretty darn good. It can also juggle Kirby if he isn't on his toes. Uair for Wario has surprising priority, it might even have more than Kirby's.

Again, Kirby really shouldn't be getting juggled by up airs. Kirby can fly and if Wario is approaching Kirby in the air, Kirby should be able to react by spacing with back airs and such. I just really don't see Wario juggling Kirby with up airs.

They might be about the same speed on the ground, but it is certainly clear that Wario is more powerful.

Actually, it really isn't clear that Wario is more powerful on the ground. The only move that can KO outside of smashes on the ground is a forward tilt, so that might be a slight advantage over Kirby. Besides that, let's compare the smash attacks.

Forward smash: Comparing both the KO powers and the weights of each character, both forward smash from either character will KO at about the same percentage. (Yes I am saying that Kirby's forward smash is a bit stronger)
Down smash: Kirby's down smash will kill Wario at about 120%, as will Wario's (talking about non staled here). Kirby's down smash is stronger than Wario's while Kirby is lighter.
Up Smash: It's pretty clear that Kirby's up smash is overall stronger, killing Wario at about 115%, but Wario can go farther with his. Wario's up smash is more for damage dealing anyways.

So to me, it doesn't seem that Wario is not that much stronger on the ground, if any.

Yes, I am almost certain Wario's is stronger than Kirby's, go test them both on a Mario at the center of FD and you will see that Wario kills him sooner than Kirby does (can't test it myself right now).

Again, I believe Kirby's forward smash has more KO power than Wario's. But comparing the two weights together, they will KO each other at about the same percentage. Here's a video of Kirby's forward smash killing Snake at a little over 100%, at about 41 seconds into the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP6T3wEH5Pw

Kirby's ability to recover successfully most of the time is nullified by the fact that he will more than likely be dying somewhat quickly. What good is it to have an awesome recovery if you are dying before you reach 90-100% damage every time?

The only character that CONSTANTLY kills me at 90%-100% is Snake. It's very rare for a Wario to kill me that early. I'm assuming you're talking about a forward smash here? If so, they first would have to never use their forward smash before that percentage (from what I see a lot of Wario's don't do that, correct me if I'm wrong) and they would have to pull it off on me. We're talking about a move with bad after lag.

You could probably kill Kirby at 100% with an up air as well, but as I said before, Kirby can fly and a good player should see the move coming since Wario has to get so high just to hit Kirby. You shouldn't be able to pull off an up air close to the ground either because Kirby can space himself extremely well in the air with back airs.


All in all, looking back at both of our comments, it seems that Kirby can KO better on the ground while Wario can KO better in the air.

 

[DMG]

I believe on the ground and in the air they are even perfect 50-50. However i believe its in recovery where Kirby gains the advantage. Motorcycle makes Wario predictable and vulnerable leaving him for an easy Inhale and spit out farther away from the stage or an easy downair for the win. Also Kirby's downB lets him get straight to the edge when falling so it cancels out the threat of Wario's upair.

My opinion against Wario 55-45 for Kirby

His recovery is worthless though if I kill him vertically (same for Kirby if he kills Wario vertically.) What I was trying to say was that even though Kirby has a pretty good recovery, he can't abuse his recovery to survive/keep him alive nearly as much as someone like Wario can because of how light he is. Also, Wario is not usually that easy to spike/edgeguard unless he is right next to you when he decides to whip out the bike or if he is way below the stage.

Kirby isn't that fast horizontally in the air and it's not exactly easy to edgeguard a character than has not only a pretty good recovery, but better horizontal movement in the air than you do.

Now about Kirby's Downb, yeah you can use that to stop attempts at juggling but it is definitely punishable if you miss. Even if you end it near the edge, you are still vulnerable for a bit. So no, it doesn't cancel the threat of Wario's Uair, but it certainly is something to keep in mind during a match.

 

[storm92]

Now about Kirby's Downb, yeah you can use that to stop attempts at juggling but it is definitely punishable if you miss. Even if you end it near the edge, you are still vulnerable for a bit. So no, it doesn't cancel the threat of Wario's Uair, but it certainly is something to keep in mind during a match.[/COLOR]

Actually, it's very easy to use downB and un-transform under the lip of the stage, nullifying the threat of Uair from below.

 

[Blackbelt]

I honestly believe Wario has the advantage. He beats us far as speed goes in the air, and he has more power, more weight, and his recovery is pretty **** hard to gimp.


The good part is that we can take Wario's power, which is a very good power, which makes it harded for Wario to approach.


Extra note: I still say Charizard has the advantage, though only at 45-55

 

[Dpete]

Kirby isn't that fast horizontally in the air and it's not exactly easy to edgeguard a character than has not only a pretty good recovery, but better horizontal movement in the air than you do.

I'm not quite comprehending this point. Wario can move faster in the air... supposedly making him harder to edgeguard why?

Also, regarding frames, do you know how many frames Kirby's aerials are? I doubt many Kirby mains even do (I don't lulz). Until we get some factual proof in here its just going to be "Kirby's aerials are worse" followed by "No u."

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I honestly believe Wario has the advantage. He beats us far as speed goes in the air, and he has more power, more weight, and his recovery is pretty **** hard to gimp.


The good part is that we can take Wario's power, which is a very good power, which makes it harded for Wario to approach.


Extra note: I still say Charizard has the advantage, though only at 45-55

His recovery is hard to gimp???

This is the recovery strategy for Wario. Motorcycle jump, normal jump if necessary, upB. Kirby only requires positional advantage in any of the three situations to seriously gimp Wario. While recovering the only protection wario has is his upair and he can't really use that unless he's sure of recovery in which case he prob didnt have enough damage to get knocked out far enough. Wario's game against Kirby is on the ground and thats it. Otherwise Kirby kicks Wario's a55 in the air His range, his priority, and his speed (neutralA is as fast as anything wario has got and it cancels warios aerial

 

[DMG]

I'm not quite comprehending this point. Wario can move faster in the air... supposedly making him harder to edgeguard why?

Also, regarding frames, do you know how many frames Kirby's aerials are? I doubt many Kirby mains even do (I don't lulz). Until we get some factual proof in here its just going to be "Kirby's aerials are worse" followed by "No u."

Having better/really good horizontal DI is always a plus. He could move away/backwards from Kirby, then use the bike and go towards the stage. It also helps him run away better towards the stage if he airdodges an edgeguarding attempt. If he was slow in the air like Dedede or someone like that, he would have trouble running away/recovering successfully even if he did airdodge an attack cause Kirby would catch up and hit him anyways.

IDK what Kirby's frame data is sadly, and yeah I can see that happening. I'll see what I can do about frame data for Kirby.

His recovery is hard to gimp???

This is the recovery strategy for Wario. Motorcycle jump, normal jump if necessary, upB. Kirby only requires positional advantage in any of the three situations to seriously gimp Wario. While recovering the only protection wario has is his upair and he can't really use that unless he's sure of recovery in which case he prob didnt have enough damage to get knocked out far enough. Wario's game against Kirby is on the ground and thats it. Otherwise Kirby kicks Wario's a55 in the air His range, his priority, and his speed (neutralA is as fast as anything wario has got and it cancels warios aerial

Do you realize how hard it is to actually get that "positional advantage?" You have to chase him off stage after you hit him with what I would assume would be one of Kirby's horizontal kill moves.

So, after you hit me with Fsmash or Hammer or something, you are telling me that you have enough time for the lag on your move to finish, for you to possibly run from somewhere on the stage other than from just the edge, jump high enough to reach my height, and that you have enough time to not only reach my general area, but to hit me with an aerial while I have recovered from hit stun and am already attempting to recover towards the stage?

Trust me, I know Kirby can edgeguard pretty well, but it seems like you are overplaying his abilities and forgetting that Wario fares a lot better off while recovering against Kirby compared to 90% of the rest of the cast.

Kirby's Nair is actually probably the only aerial Wario can beat out consistently. It has even worse range than Wario's aerials. And no, Kirby does not truly beat him in the air, they actually go about even. I guess it just depends on how you look at it IMO. They have different strengths in the air and each person probably has a different value system for certain aspects.

I honestly believe Wario has the advantage. He beats us far as speed goes in the air, and he has more power, more weight, and his recovery is pretty **** hard to gimp.


The good part is that we can take Wario's power, which is a very good power, which makes it harded for Wario to approach.

Yes, that is a good summary of what I have said a little bit ago. And stealing the chomp always finds a way to annoy me.


Edit: For Uairs, Kirby has to get to the ground eventually... He can't just keep puffing up and away to avoid an Uair. He's certainly not as prone to Uair as most characters but it would be silly to think that I will never hit you with it just cause you can jump further away.

Also, Wario kills better in general. He has more killing moves, they are (for the most part) stronger than Kirby's corresponding kill moves, and they are faster. Wario kills better on the ground and in the air, and he kills sooner cause Kirby is light and it takes Kirby longer cause Wario is heavy. Kirby does not kill better than him at all, he just doesn't.

This matchup should be something like 45-55 or 40-60 Wario. Nothing huge, but definitely not even.

 

[Deg222]

I honestly believe Wario has the advantage. He beats us far as speed goes in the air, and he has more power, more weight, and his recovery is pretty **** hard to gimp.

I agree with everything you said except what I bold. I'm not sure why you guys can't grasp the fact that Kirby has just as much KO power. Kirby has overall better smash attacks while Wario has better air attacks that can KO. If anything, Kirby and Wario's KO power is about the same, this is considering the weight and the KO power of each character. Kirby has stronger KO capability but is lighter while Wario has weaker KO capability with heavier weight. Get how I'm saying it's equal?

For Uairs, Kirby has to get to the ground eventually... He can't just keep puffing up and away to avoid an Uair. He's certainly not as prone to Uair as most characters but it would be silly to think that I will never hit you with it just cause you can jump further away.

I wouldn't just jump away from you if I'm starting to run out of jumps, I would space myself with back airs as I hit the ground.

 

[DMG]

I agree with everything you said except what I bold. I'm not sure why you guys can't grasp the fact that Kirby has just as much KO power. Kirby has overall better smash attacks while Wario has better air attacks that can KO. If anything, Kirby and Wario's KO power is about the same, this is considering the weight and the KO power of each character. Kirby has stronger KO capability but is lighter while Wario has weaker KO capability with heavier weight. Get how I'm saying it's equal?





I wouldn't just jump away from you if I'm starting to run out of jumps, I would space myself with back airs as I hit the ground.

Wario has stronger knockback on his Fsmash (I think) and his Waft than Kirby's Fsmash. I'm not absolutely 100% sure about Wario's Fsmash but the Waft is definitely stronger. Wario's Uair is also stronger than Kirby's Upsmash, so Wario has overall more killing power in his kill moves. They are also faster than Kirby's kill moves, which is also something to consider when it comes to killing your opponent. Their respective killing abilities are not equal to each other, it is slightly in Wario's favor at the very least.

How is Bair gonna help you when you are above me? I am gonna use Uair, which has a mostly vertical hitbox, and your Bair has a mostly horizontal hitbox. Bairs aren't gonna stop me from uairing you, something like Stone or a well timed Dair will however.

 

[Deg222]

Alright, I'm posting a video of the KO power of both Wario and Kirby.

I'm not sure how other Kirby's play, but when I play in the air, I don't let you get on my side. If you start approaching below me, I would fast fall before you would reach there and space myself with back airs.

Gonna have to give me a little bit for the video.

 

[DMG]

Alright, I'm posting a video of the KO power of both Wario and Kirby.

I'm not sure how other Kirby's play, but when I play in the air, I don't let you get on my side. If you start approaching below me, I would fast fall before you would reach there and space myself with back airs.

Gonna have to give me a little bit for the video.

Can you compare his Upsmash and Wario's Uair as well as comparing Wario's Waft to Kirby's moves? I hate to bug you but I don't have any recording equipment of my own.

If I am approaching from below, I am not gonna bother hitting you from the side. I will try to hit you from below, with a move that attacks vertically/towards the sky. Bair is a horizontal hitbox type move, how does that hinder me from hitting you from below? That is what I am getting at. Even if you try to out run me in the air, Wario is faster so it's hard to really space and fast fall a bair and not get hit by Uair.

 

[Dpete]

I still think this matchup is even... Deg, you argue that KO potentials are equal between characters, but I'm not sure if you're giving enough credit to Wario's Waft. That **** fart seems to give Wario a slight advantage in the KO department. This is one of dr. mario guy's main points, and I don't think you've really addressed it yet, only comparing smashes and aerials.

Yet, I think dr. mario guy is underestimating Kirby's gimping ability. Chasing someone off the edge after knocking them offstage isn't as hard as you make it seem... in the time it takes you to recover from the hit stun Kirby will have recovered from his lag and prepared for an edgeguard attempt. He can then wait for Wario to make the first move and act accordingly.

 

[DMG]

I still think this matchup is even... Deg, you argue that KO potentials are equal between characters, but I'm not sure if you're giving enough credit to Wario's Waft. That **** fart seems to give Wario a slight advantage in the KO department. This is one of dr. mario guy's main points, and I don't think you've really addressed it yet, only comparing smashes and aerials.

Yet, I think dr. mario guy is underestimating Kirby's gimping ability. Chasing someone off the edge after knocking them offstage isn't as hard as you make it seem... in the time it takes you to recover from the hit stun Kirby will have recovered from his lag and prepared for an edgeguard attempt. He can then wait for Wario to make the first move and act accordingly.

Well not just the Waft, his Uair is also stronger than Kirby's Upsmash. So the Waft + Uair = better killing moves for Wario. That, and all of Wario's kill moves come out faster than Kirby's respective choices, which is also something to consider when you are comparing who kills better, along with weight and other things.

IDK, I've played against some pretty good Kirby's and it always seems like I can recover and plan or whip out my bike faster than they can reach me. After that point, it's not nearly as dangerous for Wario to recover. I can even recover a lot of times with just a plain DJ and a well timed airdodge and save the bike for in case I get hit back out again.

Kirby can usually cover the vertical distance to edgeguard well, but it seems like he just falls short of really getting to me most of the time when it comes to horizontal speed. I may be wrong of course, this is just my take/experience on it, not an unbreakable law or anything.

 

[Dpete]

Fair enough. I think that warrants a 45-55 matchup, unless Deg can manage to disprove your arguments in a video. As for me, I need to call it a night so I don't oversleep through work in the morning

 

[Deg222]

Ok, my results:

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIBCEDAmz8

Everything was non staled, from the center of FD if the move had horizontal knockback. I tested everything 5% at a time.

Forward smash:
Kirby - kills Wario at 110%
Wario - kill Kirby at 100%
Difference - 10%, in Wario's favor.

Kirby's up smash vs. Wario's up air (on the ground):
Kirby - up smash kills Wario at 110%
Wario - up air (on the ground) kills Kirby at 110%.
Difference - this isn't the best comparison because you won't land an up air with Wario on the ground. So on average, it'll kill Kirby at 95% -100%. If you compare it to Wario's up smash, well Kirby obviously wins, but Wario's up smash isn't really meant to KO.

Down smash:
Kirby - kills Wario at 120%.
Wario - kill Kirby at 140%
Difference - 20%, in Kirby's favor. However, Wario doesn't use down smash too much mainly because it has really bad ending lag to it.

This brings me to my next point. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Wario uses his forward smash more than just for KOing. He uses once or twice before a KO % because he wants to rack up damage. Wario's forward smash is such a reliable ground attack that people like to use it. This causes it to stale in which case won't kill Kirby at 100% as I stated above.

Sorry I didn't add Wario's down B, I didn't read your post until after I made the video. I'm guessing it'll kill Kirby at about 95-100%? Maybe sooner, not sure.

So this basically just proves my point further "Kirby is better on the ground while Wario is better in the air." Neither character excels that much more than the other one however.

Edit: I could agree on 45-55 in Wario's favor, but never 40-60.