Kirby's Matchup Rankings

[Fabrian]

Right at the top of the arc of d3's up B, IT hits hard enough to knock him out,

you can drill him out of the up b at the very start too (tested).

 

[Maraphy]

There's already a thread like this

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159828

EDIT: Wait nvm, didn't read first post. Anyways, just make sure all advice for his matchups stay in there

Comparing him to other characters stays here

 

[Dpete]

Well I think we are finally in agreement on the MK subject, but I do want to point out one thing; using a decimal rating may be more precise in defining a match-up, but if we continue to use them it is going to be harder to come to a consensus as we will have several different ratings flying around. I guess it might only be stressful to me, as its hard enough now boiling down everyone's opinions into a generality with simple numbers, and with all the variations decimal ratings present it will be harder for me to come to a concise rating.

That being said, lets try to keep the ratings as simple as possible, and only in problem match-ups will we use a decimal system.

Also, in favor of keeping things readable, it might be appropriate to switch from a single digit to a double digit rating system (6-4 = 60-40). Personally I like that better than decimals.

Another thing in question would be the matchup chart creator's interpretation of the 55-45 ranking. If he just tags it as a small (dis)advantage then it will be tagged the same as 70-30 and will be misleading. So should the 55-45 matchups still be considered neutral for the purpose of the chart, as vague as it is?

Sorry for the long technicalities, I'm just trying to keep things running as smoothly as possible. I know its distracting from the actual purpose of the thread, but I think it is essential nonetheless.

 

[Delta Z]

My 2 cents.

0-20: Major Disadvantage
25-40: Disadvantage
45-55: Neutral
60-75: Advantage
80-100: Major Advantage

 

[Deg222]

My 2 cents.

0-20: Major Disadvantage
25-40: Disadvantage
45-55: Neutral
60-75: Advantage
80-100: Major Advantage

Seems about right.

 

[TwilightKirby]

So after a tourney and getting second today with only kirby... I have to say R.O.B. is the worst matchup

marth and snake arent as bad...

I just hate marth because to beat him with kirby you have to be EXTREMELY patient with spacing (I played 3 marths o.o)
really if a kirby is beating a good marth... the match is going to be very long and lots of spacing... kirby just has to punish marth with bairs while avoiding his fairs which leads to lots of zoning mind games...

snake I think is easier than marth as at least when he is in the air kirby has no problem juggling him, and killing snake actually seems no more difficult than kill rob... go for a predicted ground hammer based on where his upb will take him for early kills when you get the chance... besides that DONT go for the kill like you normally would and just rack up damage with whatever you can and only go for the kill when you see an opening... doing this will get you hurt much less and killing snake before he kills you
also final cutter to blow up grenades right next to snake is priceless XD

ROB is just as hard to kill as snake, has better spacing games than marth, and can kill kirby somewhat early, and has a projectile game to pressure kirby into staying somewhat close to him and the gyro can help give rob map control

im not sure what the ratings should be but I think they should definitely show this:

ROB>marth>snake

(my friend that plays snake surprised when i said most people consider snake a kirby counter o.o)

edit: I might as well write about peach too since I play edrees sometimes and I believe this is an even matchup
peach:50-50

peach isnt able to attack kirby with a dair while hovering if he crouches, and in general her hovering aerials dont work as well while kirby is on the ground and an upsmash will knock her out of it

however peach has a good aerial game that makes kirby unable to juggle her as easily as most characters due to decent priority/range

her turnips also can do a bit of damage while kirby is away and make camping the ledge difficult... also theres always the random chance of a beam sword, death turnip, or bobomb

peach is also somewhat difficult to kill as a good peach player will always di up and avoid being spiked, though if you can get the spike off it will kill her

peach can rack up damage on kirby easier but kirby can kill peach earlier too.... even matchup

 

[Colbert]

I think with Dedede it is 5:5. He's easy to combo, but he has a longer bair and his fair is good too. Gimping him isn't that easy, and he usually doesn't die after one dair. His spacing gives some trouble and side b is an annoyance.

With Pikachu I think Kirby actually has the advantage. Thunderjolts are not that hard to deal with, to be honest. You can copy, cancel, or even up b. If using skull bash to recover from afar, he's easy to gimp. Kirby has the aerial advantage with range, and just overall has the better edge game and can more easily take advantage of Pika's weight on the ground. 6:4

Ness is probably a 4:6. Ness' airs are good for all the right reasons and PK Fire is a pain. On the ground Kirby has the advantage and he can gimp Ness' recovery well, but Ness' bthrow is what pushes this one.

Game and Watch... 45:55? I don't think it's as close. His attacks have good priority, have a long duration, he kills at low percents, and he's very hard to gimp. 35:65 sounds more like it to me... maybe as bad as ROB or Snake.

I'd say Fox is Kirby's easiest matchup... easy gimp, inhale, 50 percent grab, etc.

 

[Deg222]

I'd have to agree about Game and Watch, he needs to be boosted up to 40:60 at least. Game and Watch just has more priority, and Kirby has to be so much more cautious against Game and Watch because Kirby can die extremely quick if he doesn't watch it. A simple forward makes you dead at 80%ish, a move that barely has any lag.

 

[Dpete]

Well, we have been having trouble with the G&W rating since the beginning, much like MK, so that's why I assumed 45-55 might be a good compromise. Obviously not... I just went back and read through the entire thread again, and while there seems to be an even amount of arguments for the neutral and 40-60 ratings, the latter have better justification. I'll change it to 40-60 for now, hopefully I can get some respected G&W main's opinions.

Others discussed but I haven't added yet:

Pikachu: 50-50
Lucario: 50-50?
Donkey Kong: 50-50

Also, about Ness, it seems ratings can vary from 40-60 to 60-40. Even in the Ness forums they couldn't decide. 50-50 seems like a nice compromise to me.

 

[Delta Z]

DK has a lot of high priority attacks; so does Kirby. He dies later than Kirby. But most of his attacks have more lag than Kirby's, and he's a much bigger target. If you catch him before he does his Up-B he's an easy gimp; it gets very little vertical distance. Timing a full-power Giant Punch right can let you take a hit and punish the crap outta him. Kirby has an advantage here. 70-30.

 

[Brahma]

I still think the DK matchup is much tougher for Kirby. I would say closer to 70-30 to Dk's side rather than the other way around. Even if Kirby can rack damage, he still has to kill. Fsmash is your best bet, and it can be shielded and punished by DK, so if you're at high % trying to kill DK, you can easily be killed yourself if you're not careful. Even drill kick to Fsmash is risky since he can SA punch through your Dair, or dash/walk away and Fsmash or dash away Bair to outrange it. Anytime Kirby is over 50% damage he has to be careful as he has to fear the KO here.

Plus, on the damage racking side of things, he can rack early damage well, like in the 0-60% range, but once you get past that DK gets knocked too far away for reliable comboing, and you have to go for single hits at a time more or less. Kirby can't KO DK reliably until 110% or so, so he has work getting hits in to build him up to that damage, then worry about how to get a KO hit in, whereas DK will be easily building damage from ground and aerial exchanges, and can get a reliable KO from about 4 moves.

DK's attacks don't really have much lag, and the ones that do have a lot of pushback, which Kirby has a hard time punishing.

UpB is hard to gimp, it has SA frames at the beginning, so if you just wait for the drill you can UpB just before it hits and hit Kirby out of it. It doesn't have great vertical range, but it has enough that combined with his awesome vertical ledgegrab range he can drop a lot lower below the edge than people expect.

Kirby's copied punch is pretty much crap here, as a good DK won't let you inside range to where you can use it effectively as he can.

 

[Fabrian]

I still think the DK matchup is much tougher for Kirby. I would say closer to 70-30 to Dk's side rather than the other way around. Even if Kirby can rack damage, he still has to kill. Fsmash is your best bet, and it can be shielded and punished by DK, so if you're at high % trying to kill DK, you can easily be killed yourself if you're not careful. Even drill kick to Fsmash is risky since he can SA punch through your Dair, or dash/walk away and Fsmash or dash away Bair to outrange it. Anytime Kirby is over 50% damage he has to be careful as he has to fear the KO here.

Plus, on the damage racking side of things, he can rack early damage well, like in the 0-60% range, but once you get past that DK gets knocked too far away for reliable comboing, and you have to go for single hits at a time more or less. Kirby can't KO DK reliably until 110% or so, so he has work getting hits in to build him up to that damage, then worry about how to get a KO hit in, whereas DK will be easily building damage from ground and aerial exchanges, and can get a reliable KO from about 4 moves.

DK's attacks don't really have much lag, and the ones that do have a lot of pushback, which Kirby has a hard time punishing.

UpB is hard to gimp, it has SA frames at the beginning, so if you just wait for the drill you can UpB just before it hits and hit Kirby out of it. It doesn't have great vertical range, but it has enough that combined with his awesome vertical ledgegrab range he can drop a lot lower below the edge than people expect.

Kirby's copied punch is pretty much crap here, as a good DK won't let you inside range to where you can use it effectively as he can.

Not really if DK's off stage kirby gets a huge chance to ko because of Dk's poor recovery.

 

[Ills]

Wow, this newfangled new site is throwing me off.

Also, this:

0-20: Major Disadvantage
25-40: Disadvantage
45-55: Neutral
60-75: Advantage
80-100: Major Advantage

 

[Maraphy]

How come some characters aren't present in the first post like Yoshi and PT

 

[CaliburChamp]

I consider Lucario vs Kirby to be an even match. 5:5. Until Lucario's damage reaches about 130% or more. Then it is slightly in Lucario's favor, but its mostly even since Kirby has some quick and powerful KO moves. It's also stage dependant, cause on Luigi's mansion, a good lucario player damage will reach high and so will his survival. I play Lucario as a secondary, and always try to choose this stage for that reason. So on a big stage with many tech zones like that, Lucario has the advantage.

 

[Dpete]

How come some characters aren't present in the first post like Yoshi and PT

This isn't my guide to character rankings, this is the community's guide. I'm just organizing it. Currently the community doesn't have an agreed rating for a lot of the characters. We are getting there though. If you would like to suggest a rating for any character feel free to do so, I'm always looking for new opinions

 

[CaliburChamp]

How come some characters aren't present in the first post like Yoshi and PT

I already explained a little about Yoshi vs Kirby and PT.

PT pokemon are pretty much even. I was thinking Charizard was a good match up for Kirby, but Charizard can survive thanks to his glide.

I remember the second round of the gamestop tournament for brawl's release, I got beat by this Yoshi player. I tried to attack his Yoshi off the edge, it wouldnt work against his double jump with SA. And Yoshi just wouldn't die. But of course back then I had no knowledge of fighting against a Yoshi, and I didnt have much knowledge of Kirby. Anyways, Yoshi can kill Kirby early like at 85% with his f-smash or upsmash, Im not sure about his downsmash. And Yoshi has longer reach now than he did in Melee, His tail and feet attacks extend longer. But I do believe we need more testing about Kirbby vs Yoshi. I just feel like Yoshi has the advantage.

 

[storm92]

Lucario:

Possibly something around a 45:55 in favor of Lucario?
Lucario has better long-range, as Aura Sphere>Final Cutter spam, but we can somewhat remedy that with Inhale.
Overall, Kirby and Lucario are close to the same speed in dashing, we're faster in the air, and we have a much better recovery.
Another thing is that due to his floatiness, Kirby can't pull off his good throw combos which work wonders on the heavier ones.
The main problem I've had when fighting Lucario is Kirby's light weight and easiness to be juggled by his Utilts and Fairs into sideB combos, and overall Lucario's superior range due to Aura. Almost all his smashes can outrange Kirby, so I've had trouble getting that finishing blow when Lucario is most dangerous at like mid-100's%.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I think Lucario's advantage is a little more, say 40:60 in favor of Lucario.

Lucario's priority in the air against Kirby puts him at a disadvantage.

On the ground Lucario's tilts have more range than Kirby as well.


Lucario can be usually be finished at 110-150 and can be gimped very very easily.



I've really only played Azen's Lucario so this is what i'm basing my opinion on

 

[~Shao~]

Dr. Peterson, is it possible to write a little summary to post under each individual match-up? Or maybe post in Maraphy`s match-up thread? Against DK and Marth, I think it`s all about spacing with f-tilts and d-tilts, NEVER using smashes unless you 100% sure you`ll hit, playing patiently(sp?) and making great use of b-air and grab combos. I`d say Marth is 30-70 and DK it`s pretty even, at least in my experience.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Dr. Peterson, is it possible to write a little summary to post under each individual match-up? Or maybe post in Maraphy`s match-up thread? Against DK and Marth, I think it`s all about spacing with f-tilts and d-tilts, NEVER using smashes unless you 100% sure you`ll hit, playing patiently(sp?) and making great use of b-air and grab combos. I`d say Marth is 30-70 and DK it`s pretty even, at least in my experience.

DK the advantage is for Kirby 60 - 40, i think many Kirby players will agree on that one

 

[Demised]

I'd put Kirby having the advantage over lucario 6.5-3.5.

Lucario gets combo'ed and edge guarded very very easily against Kirby and dont see Lucario having to much of an advantage against him except for on the ground and even then its not by much. I'll play Azen this next coming weekend and see if my opinion changes.

Dk 60-40. He kills Kirby real early off but Kirby can combo and edge guard him very easily. annnd my rides here or id write more

 

[Deg222]

Even if Kirby can rack damage, he still has to kill. Fsmash is your best bet, and it can be shielded and punished by DK, so if you're at high % trying to kill DK, you can easily be killed yourself if you're not careful.

This also can be said the other way around. If DK attempts to do a down smash let's say, Kirby can easily take advantage and forward smash. A smart Kirby will only forward smash when he/she sees an opening, and DK has quite a few.

Even drill kick to Fsmash is risky since he can SA punch through your Dair, or dash/walk away and Fsmash or dash away Bair to outrange it.

Again, if the Kirby is smart, he/she will be patient and wait for an opening before doing a down air like you said. It's not like with Metaknight where MK barely has any lag on any of his moves. DK has lag on quite a few of his moves. Like you said the ones that do have lag have push backs, but Kirby should be flying low at least half of the time. I know for myself I've punished quite a few smash attacks with a simple back air to the face.

Plus, on the damage racking side of things, he can rack early damage well, like in the 0-60% range, but once you get past that DK gets knocked too far away for reliable comboing, and you have to go for single hits at a time more or less

Honestly, I can usually still pull off 2 hit combos until about 85% on DK. DK is just so freaking big, making Kirby able to pull off combos quite easily.

UpB is hard to gimp, it has SA frames at the beginning, so if you just wait for the drill you can UpB just before it hits and hit Kirby out of it.

Kirby really shouldn't be down airing or inhaling to gimp DK, it just doesn't happen. Kirby should be using down b, and if positioned right, hello stage spike. Kirby just has to make sure that he doesn't fall too low below DK with the down b, or Kirby will probably get spiked.

Sorry for dissecting this, I just wasn't agreeing with some of the stuff you said.

I really find this match to be quite even, comparing the disadvantages and the advantages of both sides.

 

[Delta Z]

About Lucario:

Kirby and Lucario are actually pretty similar. Both are floaty, both are good in the air, and both are combo maniacs. Kirby dies earlier, but is a smaller target and is more powerful until Luc gets over 90-ish percent. Seems just about even here. 50-50.

 

[drSuper]

Just browsed quickly and I seem to agree with most things you guys are saying. However one opponent who constantly gives me trouble is Zamus. idk if you guys haven't played many good ones yet, but she can be a real pain. Her tether and lasso attacks allow her to keep you far away. Also a lot of things she does stun you pretty bad allowing her to rack up an easy 0-40% combo (just pulling from the top of my head I'm pretty sure I was comboed up to 50% by one once).

Her, ROB, and G&W give me the most difficulty

 

[Dpete]

Alright, we have lots of varying opinions on the group of neutral opponents I last posted, but really I don't see a whole lot swaying the neutral rating. Therefore I will compromise a bit, but still keep my initial neutral rating.

Donkey Kong: 55-45
Pikachu: 50-50
Lucario: 45-55

Also, though we haven't addressed ZSS yet, I will say their forum rates Kirby as one of their harder match-ups, 60-40 in Kirby's favor.

 

[~Shao~]

DK the advantage is for Kirby 60 - 40, i think many Kirby players will agree on that one

I was watching some replays and yeah... DK has a slight advantage, I'd say 55-45 sounds about right.

 

[Deg222]

I was watching some replays and yeah... DK has a slight advantage, I'd say 55-45 sounds about right.

Yeah, I'll go with that in DK's favor.

About ZSS, she might seem hard but you have to remember she's really bad at close range. It's basically getting past that whip, I have a few videos of me going against FadedImage in a tournament under my thread.

You basically wanna be in the air for the most part, but not too high up or you'll start getting up b'ed, up smash, up air, etc. Back air is your friend!

I really couldn't give a ratio because I've only fought maybe two good ZSS? So me giving a ratio wouldn't be fair, what I've experienced Kirby has a little advantage? I'm not sure.

 

[Delta Z]

Well, she's a pretty big target, which means she's easier to hit and possibly starspike. And don't forget her ability. Paralyzer + Hammer/F-smash/Air Hammer = pain.

 

[Ills]

DK beats up on Kirby but I think that if you're smart in the air (and keep it to the edges; yay recovery gimping!), and get up in his grill Kirby would do enough to make it even or possible advantage.
I dunno, I'm loaning my copy of Brawl to a friend right now so I can't do much correspondence.

 

[Dpete]

It seems we are pretty close to finishing up discussions on the perceived higher tier characters. There still are a few though that haven't seen much discussion:

Wario
Pit
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus

Opinions?

 

[~Shao~]

Zelda is a really hard match-up, approaching her is a pain because her smashes have disjointed hit box, last for a while, suck you in and are lightning fast. She can camp with din's fire, making you approach her, although perfect shielding and sidestepping din's isn't that hard. Your best bet is approaching with back air into up-tilt to try to get her in the air, keeping her above you if possible, but always watching out for her lightning kicks. I'd say this match-up is 30-70.

EDIT: Dr. Peterson, you have to fix the DK match-up in the first post, it's 45-55 in DK's favor.

 

[Deg222]

I wouldn't say 70-30 in Zelda's favor, she can be a pain but not that much. I don't believe Zelda has a very good approach, she has to sit back a lot and wait for you to approach her.

From my experience she can kill Kirby pretty quickly but she's pretty light as well. What I usually do is space myself with forward tilts, down tilts and back airs. If you just let her approach you, she's not as bad as she seems. It's all about patience really.

Din's fire isn't really hard to avoid either. If you can learn to power shield it, Din's fire is kind of a joke actually. Din's fire can be canceled with back airs also, only if Din's fire explodes at Kirby's feet. It might not be the best idea to do, but it's a fun fact.

Oh yeah, my opinion on the match up, 60:40 or 55:45 Zelda's favor.

 

[~Shao~]

Ok, I agree on 60-40 in zelda's favor. You have to avoid doing smashes unless you're sure you'll hit, and yeah, forward tilts for spacing.

 

[Maraphy]

I think Zamus is about 50-50 with Kirby

Her Advantages: Great reach on aerials, Great whip reach

Kirby's Advantages: Swallowciding her is easy, Has more power

Same: They both have a hard time comboing eachother, Great recovery for both

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

40 - 60 in favor of ZSamus. If u ever have played a pro ZSamus in tourney u'll c forward b spam like u've never seen b4. It spaces extremely well.

 

[Deg222]

So what's our thoughts on Wario, Pit and Diddy Kong? I guess I'll start:

Wario 50:50

The way I see it, Kirby has more priority in the air, but at the same time Wario simply moves faster in the air. Wario can be somewhat comboed, only up to a certain point. Both players have about the same amount of spacing and can KO each other at about the same %. Forward smash from both players has about the same KO power right? I could be wrong, but it's only my experience.

Diddy 60:40 (Kirby's favor)

Ok yes, bananas can be a pain, but you have to remember Kirby does very well in the air. It's one of those fights where you simply can't stay on the ground, doing so will make you slip all over the place. Diddy has a little starting lag on all his aerials while Kirby doesn't, so you should be able to out prioritize him in the air. Just make sure you don't play his ground game and Diddy shouldn't be THAT bad.

Pit 45:55 (Pit's favor)

I haven't fought too many Pits so don't take this too seriously. Probably your top thing to do is grab his power so he won't camp as much as he wants to. You shouldn't have to worry about his shield, it's highly doubtful that he will pull it out when you shoot, and if he does pull it out, angle the arrow so it doesn't deflect back at you. Also, crouching arrows won't help too much, a good Pit will angle them down at your face. Approaching him can be a little bit of a pain sometimes, you'll most likely will have to let him come to you, probably stay in the air with back airs. When he's close enough, then you can start grabbing him, and doing ground attacks. The fight is pretty even, but at the times where you don't have Pit's power, he can be a little bit of a pain.

 

[Demised]

Diddy 65-35 (Kirbys favor)- Diddy is very easily chased after and easy to follow up with multiple set of moves and or combos. Plus spiking him is rather easy.

Wario 45-55 (Kirbys favor)- The only reason I give Kirby 5 more is because he is one of the only characters who can gimp wario off his bike with a spike or suck. Hit with either one he is basically out of the picture.

Pit 50-50 (neithers favor)- Kirby has the combo advantage and again the ability to gimp easily, where as Pit has arrow spam and combos of his own to build extra damage to even him out with Kirby.

Zamus- 65-35 (Zamus favor) Zero suits speed, stun gun, whip, quick combos, make this very very hard for Kirby to approach and in general do damage. Then even when you do, Zamus is hard to punish making it more than likely she did more damage to kirby while you were approaching then the damage you did after making it in.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Diddy 65-35 (Kirbys favor)- Diddy is very easily chased after and easy to follow up with multiple set of moves and or combos. Plus spiking him is rather easy.

Wario 45-55 (Kirbys favor)- The only reason I give Kirby 5 more is because he is one of the only characters who can gimp wario off his bike with a spike or suck. Hit with either one he is basically out of the picture.

Pit 50-50 (neithers favor)- Kirby has the combo advantage and again the ability to gimp easily, where as Pit has arrow spam and combos of his own to build extra damage to even him out with Kirby.

Zamus- 65-35 (Zamus favor) Zero suits speed, stun gun, whip, quick combos, make this very very hard for Kirby to approach and in general do damage. Then even when you do, Zamus is hard to punish making it more than likely she did more damage to kirby while you were approaching then the damage you did after making it in.

I dont think u've played anyone who knows hot to use bananas. THat match up could be true if Diddy didnt have bananas but any good Diddy player would make the match up 55-45 in Kirby's favor

 

[Red.Tide]

I just posted an argument on the main matchup thread for Kirby vs. the space animals. Hopefully it will be listened to.