Kirby's Matchup Rankings

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I've noticed that a lot also about the Japanese players, they dont go for cheap kills or guard the edge. It really shows the difference between America and Japan in terms of play style.

The problem with this matchup is that u have to passive aggressive with Kirby against Falco and that means that Kirby players that dont know how to adjust to Falco will have a hard time and aggressive players will also have a hard time as we saw in the Japanese Vid.

So perhaps 55-45 b/c Kirby definetly has the potential to beat Falco its just if the player knows how to play with the right strategy.

 

[3xSwords]

....65-35 or at least 60-40 imo. A grab combo at 0% is a guaranteed 30% if not more. Then you can also take his power, and counter camp. You don't have to worry about his chain grab. And you can gimp him easily once you can time phantasm correctly. This should give kirby a greater advantage than 5%.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

agreed, basically how i play Falco is Fthrow, uair, fthrow, uair, Ftilt or fsmash then gimp. 1/4 of the time i'll get a dair and guard the ledge, 1/4 of the time i Bair b4 he phantasms so he can't recover, 1/4 of the time i guard the edge when he phantasms for it, and the remaining fourth Falco phantasms on to the stage on which case u charge Fsmash, take their copy, Hammer, or Bair.

Thats my theory and i put it in practice every match i play against Falco and it works well enough for me to win with 2 stocks or 1 stock low damage.

This is y i origally said 60-40. But the Falco boards went crzy. So i say 55-45 now.

But my own opinion is 60-40

 

[Deg222]

....65-35 or at least 60-40 imo. A grab combo at 0% is a guaranteed 30% if not more. Then you can also take his power, and counter camp. You don't have to worry about his chain grab. And you can gimp him easily once you can time phantasm correctly. This should give kirby a greater advantage than 5%.

Taking his power won't give you the ability to camp, he'll just sit there spamming his deflector all day. Even though he can't chain grab, he can however down throw you followed by a down air, at low percentages. This is an automatic 20% damage. At around 45% or so, he shouldn't be able to pull this off anymore because the knock back on the down throw will be too much. I've said it once, I'll say it again, if you think we have a huge advantage over Falco just because we can pull off a 50% combo, you haven't played a good Falco. He simply has a better ground game than us, I really don't want to repeat myself from my other post, just look at that post 1 page back.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

his ground game might be better but Kirby should be playing in the air against falco all the time anyway. Approaching with aerials or Empty shorthops with an airdodge to shield grab or quick two hit combos to keep Falco from building a strong ground game.

 

[Deg222]

Yeah, Kirby has to aerial camp most of the time to have an easy time against Falco. Some people believe Falco's air game is not as bad as we make it out to be. For some reason they don't believe priority is a big part of an air game ><

 

[Dpete]

Still, its not like Kirby's air game totally ***** Falco. SHDL combined with SH'd Phantasms and Shines will make aerial approaches tough.

So looking at ratings, I think at best its in Kirby's favor 55-45, and at worst its 45-55. Neutral 50-50 still sounds the best to me. Here's a quick list of pro's and con's to help wrap this discussion up.

Kirby's Pro's - Aerials, KO potential, Better Grab Combo's, Gimping/Recovery Punishment
Kirby's Con's - Range/Spacing, Ground Game, Approach?

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

approach isnt a weakness when u dont have to. If i ever fight a camping Falco i duck and wait for him to approach very simply i make him come to me.

 

[TwilightKirby]

i think kirby should get the advantage. I think the reasoning for the falco players believing they have an advantage would be that the falco players are less likely to have played more skilled kirby users since there aren't that many. Falco is much more popular than kirby. Falco just doesn't really outrange kirby, and really thats the main thing that can cause trouble for kirby. All kirby has to do is space and attack him and he can win. A good part of falcos damage can come from chaingrabs against most characters, but falco can't do that to kirby.

Really this just feels to easy to not say its in kirbys favor.

 

[Dpete]

Falco just doesn't really outrange kirby, and really thats the main thing that can cause trouble for kirby. All kirby has to do is space and attack him and he can win.

I disagree with this. Falco can use his special moves to totally outrange and zone Kirby. It is hard for Kirby to maintain good spacing when all it takes is a good shine or phantasm from Falco to keep him out of range.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

i will agree that reflector has some excellent spacing properties however phantasm is an easily punished move by any smart player also u can counter the move so u dont receive damage and get closer to where Falco ends his phantasm.

Kirby's size makes him the hardest to space and zone. Given that attribute Falco's game is all about keeping u away. His reflector, phantasm, his laser, his Fsmash and aerials they all are great spacers. So for a smart Kirby player that means time to let off the aggressiveness and play passively until u fine openings that the slowly impatient Falco gives u. They'll start with grabs and progress to counters and eventually the Falco will pull away and try to camp u or turn aggressive and go all out. Kirby has the advantage in the ending situations and its 50-50 at the start of the match giving kirby the advantage.

 

[Dpete]

I agree Kirby has the advantage over an aggressive Falco, but the campy Falco still raises some problems...

More than likely, the campy Falco will be forced to approach, ala crouching Kirby. He could go aggressive and just rush in, where Kirby would have the advantage, or take a more passive aggressive approach centered around spacing, which could give Kirby trouble and build damage quickly. Based off that Japanese video, since it seems to be the best we have, Phantasms really helped him keep good spacing and was near unpunishable. And he didn't even use his reflector once that match...

But, Falco has to revert to aggressive tactics eventually to get the kill. If Kirby plays passively early in the match and keeps his and Falco's damages pretty close, he can capitalize on better KO potential later and have a small advantage.

tl;dr version: Falco has a small advantage early, but a smart Kirby can keep it close until KO percents, where he has an advantage.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

so were gonna call this one 50-50?

 

[Colbert]

Dr. Peterson, if you're basing your opinion off of that video then you're making a huge mistake. Just because the Kirby player didn't duck and couldn't deal with the Phantasms doesn't mean it is hard to counter by any means. The Kirby player was very unskilled when it came to that. Also keep in mind that he tried to edgeguard a Phantasm with STONE. That alone is a very unwise move.

The fact that Kirby has...

an easier time KOing
an easy time gimping
a better air game
an easier time countering lasers compared to most
and a better chaingrab/ grab combo


doesn't outweigh Falco's only advantage in his ground range with jab combo and reflector. The deciding factor is that Kirby just has better KO potential in all aspects and can get kills at any percent.

65-35 or 60-30, but I still think 65-35

Final Cutter to edgeguard Phantasm = awesomeness, along with Kirby's many other options

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

final decision 60-40? then, cuz colbert basically summarized Kirby's advantages better than anyone has yet

and although Falco can downairspike Kirby at least one stock per match its much harder and riskier for him than it is for Kirby

 

[Blackbelt]

final decision 60-40? then, cuz colbert basically summarized Kirby's advantages better than anyone has yet

and although Falco can downairspike Kirby at least one stock per match its much harder and riskier for him than it is for Kirby

I say 55-45.

 

[Deg222]

The fact that Kirby has...

an easier time KOing
an easy time gimping
a better air game
an easier time countering lasers compared to most
and a better chaingrab/ grab combo

1) Falco can kill Kirby just as quick. Both of Kirby's and Falco's smashes have about the same lag overall and the same KO power comparing weights.

2) Falco has the better ground game, so the fact that Kirby has a better air game cancels this out.

So the real list of advantages Kirby has is:

1) Little easier time gimping
2) Better chain throws
3) Can handle lasers easier

That's only two advantages Kirby has, and the fact that Kirby's chain throw advantage only helps him at low percentages isn't a real big advantage at all. If Falco is past 30%, this advantage is completely gone.

Edit: Seriously, if you think this match up is past 60-40 in Kirby's favor, please find a better Falco to play. He's not a cake walk like you people make him out to be. And yeah I say 55-45.

 

[MK26]

Why don't we all just swarm the Falco boards saying that Kirby has the advantage and then wait to see them refute us...o rite we already did that. But really, if we go in there saying it's 65-35, then somebody's gotta say something, amirite?

Right now its just down to personal opinion. There's nothing more to actually discuss, except everybody stating their own opinion.

And wasn't this discussion just to prove that Kirby is equal to, and not disadvantaged against, Falco on the Match-up Board? We should just leave it as neutral (or else the Falco mains might get mad and actually reply to our trolling).

 

[Colbert]

Falco should never really be able to down air spike us at all, Gonzo.

Deg:

- Kirby only has a "Little easier time gimping"?!

1) How in Gods name is Falco supposed to even come close to gimping Kirby? I hope that's not what you were trying to say.
2) Falco is one of the top 10 easiest characters to gimp, hands down. I don't even have a problem gimping him with online timing, let alone in real life. Refer to my long post on page 25, because I don't want to have to repeat the same things over and over.

"That's only two advantages Kirby has, and the fact that Kirby's chain throw advantage only helps him at low percentages isn't a real big advantage at all. If Falco is past 30%, this advantage is completely gone."

The same could be said about Falco,. His is even more limited. I'm not saying this is a huge mind-boggling advantage, but it is an advantage that many Falco and Dedede users need to abuse to win matches and we end up doing a better job. Every percent is a big deal, because often times I will find myself using fsmash a little earlier than usual just to go for the edgeguarding kill.

And I'm pretty sure that Kirby kills earlier. I'll go test it now.

EDIT: See next post. Falco can NOT kill Kirby just as quick, like you stated.

"1) Little easier time gimping
2) Better chain throws
3) Can handle lasers easier

That's only two advantages Kirby has, "

 

[Colbert]

Kirby has an easier time KOing.

All testing was from the exact middle of Final Destination. Kirby tested on Falco and Falco tested on Kirby.

Fsmash
Kirby kills Falco at 92
Falco kills Kirby at 102

Usmash
Kirby kills Falco at 95
Falco kills Kirby at 109

Dsmash
Kirby kills Falco off the top at 105
Kirby kills Falco off the side at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 143

Bair
Kirby kills Falco at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 132

Individual

First hit of Aerial Hammer kills Falco at 110

Second hit of Aerial Hammer kills Falco at 99, but at 85 Falco is so low that he must use UpB to recover. At 89, Falco's UpB doesn't reach the stage even without edgehogging.

Stone kills Falco at 95 percent

Falco can kill Kirby from a full jump at 130 with a sweetspotted uair. This is the only advantage I could find.


...Throw in Kirby's easy time gimping Falco

and

Inhale + spitting just low enough for Falco to have to use his UpB -> dairs

and then it is clear that Kirby has a much easier time getting the KO than Falco. Not only does Kirby have stronger smashes; he also has more KO moves/ options.

---

Deg: That brings Kirby back to 4, by your list.

 

[Deg222]

First I'd like to state that I never meant Falco could ever gimp Kirby. I meant Kirby can gimp Falco but not easily. Now that's out of the way, on to your next post.

Fsmash
Kirby kills Falco at 92
Falco kills Kirby at 102

Nice, but if we block Falco's forward smash, it's really hard to counter afterwords because of the knock back it has. I know we can perfect shield it but that won't always happen, and side stepping doesn't always work because of the after hit of this move. So yeah, we have better KO power, but Falco's is more safe to use I would think.

Fsmash
Kirby kills Falco at 92
Falco kills Kirby at 102

Are you sure about this? I rarely ever kill anybody below 100% with an up smash... that's pretty crazy.

Dsmash
Kirby kills Falco off the top at 105
Kirby kills Falco off the side at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 143

I think if you use Falco's down smash at the edge, it hits them in a downwards direction. I know it's not really a factor in this match up, but just little fun fact.

Bair
Kirby kills Falco at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 132

I was talking about smashes and Falco's ground game in my post, we already know Falco's air game isn't as good as Kirby's.

Second hit of Aerial Hammer kills Falco at 99, but at 85 Falco is so low that he must use UpB to recover. At 89, Falco's UpB doesn't reach the stage even without edgehogging.

The only time you'll ever pull this off is in the air, Falco won't even let you get that close on the ground with a short range attack like a hammer. Even then, in the air it's pretty hard to pull this attack off because even though Falco's aerials lack priority, they come out pretty instantly.

Falco can kill Kirby from a full jump at 130 with a sweetspotted uair. This is the only advantage I could find.

130% from a full jump? Um no, I have no idea what test you did but this move with a full jump as you stated will kill Kirby at around 100%. But then again, this move is kind of hard to pull off and if Kirby sees something like this coming, he can use his stone.

Inhale + spitting just low enough for Falco to have to use his UpB -> dairs

Seriously, how is this a simple task? You can only inhale him at the end of his animation, the end of his path with forward b. If you try to inhale any closer, he'll just go right past your face because he goes too fast. Here's an example of Wolf doing this to me:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vyOIm0yaVW4

I know it's Wolf, but I'm sure Falco's foward b isn't really any different except the angle.

If you even say "I just inhale him while I'm standing on the platform and then jump off." Then I'm done talking to you, because they'll get out before you even reach close to the bottom of the stage.

and then it is clear that Kirby has a much easier time getting the KO than Falco. Not only does Kirby have stronger smashes; he also has more KO moves/ options.

You make it sound so drastic when you say "then it is clear that Kirby has a much easier time getting the KO than Falco." You stated that overall, Kirby KOs 10% early (not including down smash but he doesn't NEED to use this move), that's not much at all. I agree that Kirby definitely has more KO options though. I'm just saying that this advantage isn't really that major.

 

[Colbert]

By one full jump I meant...

1 hop, no midair jumps.

And I don't find Falco's fsmash hard to punish, it just has annoying priority. It seems to me that Falco has more ending lag on his fsmash. than us.

I agree that inhaling through a phantasm isn't one of the best ways to gimp, and I'm not talking about inhaling from the stage and jumping off. Often times on stages like Battlefield it is easy to hold a lot of fighting close to the edge.

I find that the gimping advantage, KO advantage, throw advantage, and ability to negate Falco's lasers to an extent is enough to have at least a 60-40 advantage. Also keep in mind that it is easier to force your opponent to fight in the air than for him to force you to fight on the ground, at least IMO from a Diddy Kong stand point where Squirtles own me.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

phantasm is used by Falco in three ways. One to recover on to the stage, 2 to recover on to the edge, three to run away from his opponent.

1) if ur mindgaming ur opponent back on the stage u realize that Falco has ending lag at the end of phantasm, so ur hoping to get in a Bair or perhaps an Fsmash by downdodging or spacing urself at the end of the phantasm.

2) if ur good around the edge then this should not b a problem for u. phantasm has a tiny bit of start up lag, enough for u to quickly hug the edge.

3) phantasm to space is hardest to punish cuz it goes so far. The only thing u can do is always b ready for the phantasm and dodge or block it so the Falco will start to use it less and less since u continue to block it.

Dealing with Falco's Fsmash
I'll agree that this spaces Kirby really well. Its probably Falco's best ground spacer. However being spaced by this move or even just guarding it is not a bad thing. Since it'll become stale it'll become easier to predecit which smash he'll use to finish u and since his Usmash and Dsmash are easier to dodge than his Fsmash Falco losses a lot of KO potential.

 

[Colbert]

It seems to me like the general concencus is that Kirby has at least a 60-40 advantage. Falco just has to do a more work if he wants to win this matchup. Falco's often rely on their lasers and chaingrabs to win games, and neither of these work nearly as effective on Kirby compared to others.

He can't compete in the air.
He gets out chaingrabbed by us.
He has a harder time killing than us.
He can't camp as well as he would like.
He is easily edgeguarded

The fact that he has a better ground game can not outweigh all of this.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

he is not easily edgeguarded but its not difficult either. 60-40 is pushing it just a little. I think its more 55-45 but perhaps i feel this way cuz i haven't played any normal skilled falco's ive really only played against pro falco players except Candy who was just using him for ****s and giggles

 

[Deg222]

I think we have more or less reached an agreement on Falco, anywhere around 55-45 it seems. When are we starting next week's character discussion?

 

[MK26]

It seems to me like the general concencus is that Kirby has at least a 60-40 advantage.

What general consensus? The consensus of everybody whose name starts with C and ends with "olbert"?

Going back 3 pages, precisely 1 person that has more than one post in this thread has said 60-40:
You

Now in those 3 pages, we have 4 people explicitly saying 55-45:
Gonzo
Peterson
Deg
Blackbelt

Twilight didn't give a numbered rating, but he said neutral a page back.

I'd like to change my rating to 55-45 as well. That's five, Colbert. Count 'em. Use your hand if you need to. Where's your consensus now?


*EDIT: wow, a little harsh there. What I'm trying to say is, stop making statements without some sort of proof to back them up. Let's get this over with and go on to the next character. I vote Zelda.

 

[TwilightKirby]

Hmm I think the main reason for the debate would be that falco can't play against kirby the same way as other characters. This means that falco players that are bad at adapting will have a very hard time playing kirby. But as long as they adapt I think the 55:45 sounds fair. The rankings should reflect a character being played at maximum potential right?

Anyways I am curious about why game and watch is a disadvantage? I have never had a problem with G&W in tourneys.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

lol u've never played a good G&W or u know something we don't

i vote we go on to ROB
i dont think were at as much of a disadvantage than we think we are

 

[MK26]

I'm changing my vote...the Lucario boards are working on their matchup vs. Kirby, so this is the best time to get Lucario out of the way...we might actually have input from both sides!

And because I was lazy (and because Peterson never changed the Dedede rating to 55-45 on the actual list) I arranged the matchups by rating, from easiest to hardest (with stars to denote ones we've already done):

Captain Falcon: 80-20
Bowser: 70-30
Fox: 70-30
Ike: 70-30
Ivysaur: 70-30
Link: 70-30
Jigglypuff: 65-35
Charizard: 60-40
Diddy Kong: 60-40
Ganondorf: 60-40
Olimar: 60-40
Sheik: 60-40
Sonic: 60-40
Toon Link: 60-40
Wolf: 60-40

*Falco: 55-45*
*King Dedede: 55-45*
Luigi: 55-45
Zero Suit Samus: 55-45
Donkey Kong: 50-50
Lucas: 50-50
Ness: 50-50
Peach: 50-50
Pikachu: 50-50
Squirtle: 50-50
Yoshi: 50-50
Lucario: 45-55
Mario: 45-55
Meta Knight: 45-55
Pit: 45-55
Wario: 45-55

Game and Watch: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 40-60
Zelda: 40-60
Samus: 40-60
R.O.B.: 35-65
Marth: 30-70
Snake: 30-70

 

[Murgatron]

Just a note, "Sheik" is spelled incorrectly in the first post.

I wish every board would make a thread like this, with the same formatting.

 

[Deg222]

Anyways I am curious about why game and watch is a disadvantage? I have never had a problem with G&W in tourneys.

If you played a good G&W, you know that they destroy us in our aerial game with their neutral air ><. But anyways, we need a next character to talk about.

 

[Colbert]

Wow.


"But the Falco boards went crzy... But my own opinion is 60-40" ~ Gonzo
"....65-35 or at least 60-40 imo." ~ 3xSwords
"i think kirby should get the advantage." ~ TwilightKirby

Thanks a lot for lieing AND personally attacking me.


Like I said, I don't understand how our 5 advantages can possibly be neutral to his 1 advantage on the ground.

I suggest you stop trying to run the topic and let Dr. Peterson do it.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Easy now guys, i know we each have our own perspective on the match-up due to personal experience. My experience makes me feel 60 - 40 however i haven't experienced everything to completely understand the matchup hence the reason i go with 55-45 for Kirby. I understand the Kirby boards feel as thought they have a definite 60-40 advantage, however, we all have to take into account the input from the Falco boards as well. Not to mention this game is new and characters full potentials haven't been reached yet. So its safer to go with a more neutral matchup ranking of 55-45 until something gives a definite clear cut advantage to one or the other

 

[Colbert]

Then tell the Falco people to come in here. I didn't write a 9-11 paragraph post on gimping Falco for nothing.

I'm not going to compromise when people disagree with me unless they share their points and they make sense.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

that discussion was made in my Falco vs Kirby thread i started on the Falco boards, u can search for what they responded their and also post their to get any responses from them

 

[MK26]

Wow.


"But the Falco boards went crzy... But my own opinion is 60-40" ~ Gonzo
"....65-35 or at least 60-40 imo." ~ 3xSwords
"i think kirby should get the advantage." ~ TwilightKirby

Thanks a lot for lieing AND personally attacking me.


Like I said, I don't understand how our 5 advantages can possibly be neutral to his 1 advantage on the ground.

I suggest you stop trying to run the topic and let Dr. Peterson do it.

I'm just trying to help. People asked for a list in order of difficulty, and I made one. If you think it's 60-40, post in this thread and get a consensus. Which brings me to:

Gonzo today: 55-45 (yes, he said his personal opinion is 60-40, but thats his personal OPINION, not hard fact)
3xSwords today: (only made 1 post in this thread, which wasn't today)
Twilight Kirby today: 55-45

And lying is spelled with a 'y'.

Then tell the Falco people to come in here. I didn't write a 9-11 paragraph post on gimping Falco for nothing.

I'm not going to compromise when people disagree with me unless they share their points and they make sense.

um...have you read this thread? Hove you read the thread in the Falco boards? The Falcos know that Kirby can gimp them given the chance. However, they will not give Kirby that chance, and will never ever put themselves into a position where they might need to use FireBird to recover. If you have gimped a Falco because he used FireBird, play better Falcos.

Sorry for being harsh man, but majority (and experience) rules.

 

[Colbert]

It sounds to me like you didn't read my post at all on gimping. Please try responding again after reading the correct information. Thank you. I give you full permission to try and debate me on that subject after reading my post and refuting points said in that post. It sounds to me like YOU are not the person that should be questioning whether I have read this thread or not.

Oh, and you said "explicitly". Sorry bud, but I never knew that there was an experation date on this type of stuff. Gonzo pretty much said "I still say 60-40, but the Falco boards yelled at me so Ill say 55-45". Obviously thats an over-dramatization but you get the picture. His reasons for saying 55-45 are because of a compromise and "it would be safer to go with a more neutral matchup".

I don't understand your reasoning when you start saying in your old post "these people said this recently" and then now you're saying all people who have agreed with me on that day, when I said it seemed like it was a concensus, don't count because "It wasn't today"

Oh, and sorry for the spelling errors. I'm typing quickly and there isn't a spellcheck feature. All that matters is that you understand what I'm saying, correct? Like I said, try to stop personally attacking me.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

easy guys, its understandable that not everyone reads every other persons posts fully unless ur me and spend way to much time here jk anyway its tru i made a compromise but thats due to, what i consider, a lack of experience against good falco's. This being said i have to compromise my 60-40 for 55-45 b/c i dont know how a pro Falco plays. Perhaps we should get the falco boards to offer us 2-3 videos of what they consider pro Falco players and c what we have in our arsenal to counter their strategies

that sounds more effective than arguing over who said what, yeah?

 

[Colbert]

I agree that we need to analyze more film of Kirby vs. Falco players.

The only film that we got to see had Kirby failing to deal with lasers by ducking and trying to gimp with his stone.

Anyone that can: please record all your Falco vs. Kirby matches. =P