Kirby & The Amazing Guide

[Asdioh]

DACUS (his is short, btw, if you can even do it)

Kirby can DACUS? O_o I've tried so many times, and I could never do it.

*Then to working with slides (Pivot Slides?) - if any*


I wonder if kirby has jab lock? And we can aruge many other WHAT IFS O_O and see if it's true.
Kirby gets a slide if u run and do rock kirby. - If I can find a way to extend it (prolly can ) and use it to go off the stage. We just got kirby 2 New ATs < Sliding off the stage? and A type of "rock tackle" < if that works

He actually can do pivot slide stuff. I assume this has been known since close to when Brawl came out, but I only figured it out myself recently, and I actually managed to apply it in a game so far. If you're running left/right slower than a dashdance, so that you kinda skid and turn around, and skid and turn around, etc. you can do any smash for a decent while after you pivot. I got a Fsmash kill in this manner: G&W was descending with the parachute from his Up B, while I was pivoting around below and to his left. He did a Dair, I ran out of range, and thanks to the Pivot I fsmashed him for a KO.

MK has a cooler pivot though...he kinda slides away with his Fsmash, it's pretty ridiculous.

Yeah Kirby has a jablock..most characters do, it seems. It's stupidly hard to get your opponent to lie on the ground for you though, unless you have maybe walls or ceilings available. Final Cutter seems like the best way to do it for me..though, I've never pulled off a jablock in an actual game, not even against a CPU. Hit your opponent with the second part of FC (not the rising part, which is the first part, and not the projectile, which is the third part. What you would have to do is FC on top of them, and DI kinda behind them as you're descending)

Assuming they don't block it and punish the CRAP out of you, they'll bounce and if you're quick and they're slow, you can jablock. Yeah. >_>

As you probably know, Stone starts up faster on the ground than in the air. There is an "AT" where you run off the stage and immediately Stone, so you can edgeguard with the speed of a grounded Stone, but you fall off the stage to edgeguard. The timing is incredibly hard, I haven't been able to do it (though I haven't practiced it very much.) If you set your C-stick to 'Special' it's extremely easy to do.

And the grounded Stone Slide...pretty much useless. They can shield and punish it...and even if you DO land it, it's not like you can follow up with anything, you have to untransform first.

Is there anything else that is keeping kirby from God Tier. I want to know what and I want to find ways around this and ways to surmount it.

He's simply not as good as some of the other characters. >_>

??? what is that exaclty?

Phantom Lag is 'hidden' lag your character gets upon landing on the stage after doing a Special attack that can cause lag. For example, do an aerial hammer with Kirby, and then land on the ground a little while later. You will notice that there is a split second you can't do anything upon landing because of 'phantom lag' from the hammer. It's a glitch as far as I know, and a devastating one, for some characters. Kirby's not affected by it too much, if you're careful. It mostly affects characters like Ganondorf that use like, their Up B to grab the ledge...they'll get lag from the Up B the next time they land on the stage.

I think everything A1 has mentioned (or quoted Asdioh or Dfat1 on), is pretty spot-on.

Early on with Brawl people thought Kirby was high tier because of his grab game, combos, F-smash, and off-stage capabilities. As players got used to Brawl and became better with DI, SDI, recovery, and developing their own character's strengths, Kirby started to falter. Not only that, but as other characters developed further it seems like Kirby has taken baby-steps in his meta game.

It has come to the point now that if I so much as try a F-throw combo the follow-up gets SDI'd and I do a big 18% and the combo ends there -QFT. Some moves do more than 18% in a single hit, including moves Kirby has himself (Hammer...I forgot how much Stone does...) Kirby's grab game is mostly complained about by amateurs, and overcome by pros. (exception to heavy characters where I can usually get another grab in). From there, other characters have advantages in speed, priority, camp, weight, power, etc. and the only thing I have at my disposal is strategy and experience.

While it's not like Kirby's at a HUGE disadvantage most of the time, there are still specific things that are very difficult to get around - most notably those who play the 'distance game'. And it's not like in Melee where people even *forgot* Kirby was in the game until I selected him; Kirby sees some action so people are more informed and practiced against what he has at his disposal. -QFT

I, personally, see Kirby dropping in the meta game. I could care less what tier lists say. I'm fully immersed in the tournament scene and can tell you exactly how things are developing between competitive players with any character.

Everything you said in that post are my thoughts EXACTLY. I've been thinking/saying that for a long time now XD

And I also think Kirby will drop a little in the tier list, though people that don't main Kirby seem to think he'll go up. I don't mind if they continue thinking Kirby is hard to beat though. :]

I have little trouble against Kirby with my other characters, because I know him so well.


With that said, Kirby's still a good and fun character. He'll just have a harder time actually winning than most of those higher than him on the tier list (which is the way it "should" be I guess)

 

[t!MmY]

I guess it's not really that Kirby will drop on the tier list, it's more like the tier list will eventually catch up to where he should be. Kirby is a good, well-rounded character, but he doesn't have anything to exploit and there are some things he had trouble dealing with in a competitive environment. This seems middle tier-ish to me, but perhaps a little higher than mid-mid tier.

 

[fromundaman]

Well, the thing is he does pretty good against almost all the high tier characters, especially Falco, hence why people who don't know him too well see to think he'll go up.

Also, Dthrow can lead to jablocks on LM, though I kind of suck at doing them and the only times I've ever gotten jablocks in matches were as different characters...

 

[A1lion835]

Yea about our "awesome" grab game...stone does 18 percent, I think air hammer actually does 15 then 17 (or something close) and snake's ftilt, of course, deals 21000%...

Yea, I pretty much agree with t!MmY's post. Everyone thinks he'll go up, but really, he has no new tricks up his sleeve and people are finding ways around his old ones.

 

[Plu-e]

This guide isn't great.
It gives nice data and that's it...

I'm going to collect a bunch of AT's known to the kirby users and I'm gonna spit every single last technique for kirby I know

And btw - as for mobility -

Fast Fall?

@_@

It helps ALOT when fighting R.O.B.s and Lucarios. < If Kirby users get into the pattern of using that technique strategically(Situationally and in a type of unpredictable way) then We'll be approaching God Tier.

Also....I can't let MetaKnight hog God Tier when Kirby and him tussle it out all the time in the games
T_T

So use Kirby BETTER!...or I'll eat you. "Hi~ii"

*God I sounded arrogant up there @_@..I apologize for that.*

 

[Plu-e]

*Re-Reads more posts above clearly....T_T

Kirby has MANY exploitable moves...
And not necessarily situational

First off,

Grab Combos.

Yes, people have gotten used to them. But they're great for racking up damage none the less and it's a great way to "figure out" your opponent in the beginning of the game.

Let's say we start with the basic Kirby Combo. = F-Throw > W/e

I say w/e because u don't have to do U-Air and repeat it @_@

U can Inhale, Hammer, and even prepare for a defensive tactic(situational).
Seeing as this guide lacks it -_- I think we need to make a new thread, like the Samus one, where we just dump EVERYTHING we know about kirby into one thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185822

Pretty much, we can start like that.
And then add on in threads. Maybe even have a format to doing so.(such as...

AT's for Kirby(and only Kirby)

Name?(if you're that creative )
Effect: (Damage, Knock Back/Direction (Rads please, It's standard -_-), and Possible Set ups.
How to: (....I'm not going to explain it)
Video: (If any?)

Then we can move into more tips and ideas and just start having videos that can prolly reiterate our AT usage aswell as have some situational things or applications of ATs and basic things...for example...

If I had a video dedicated to kirby's D-Throw.
I could start with that and just do different things to a poor computer in training mode and reset as necessary.
Maybe even get a friend to help and bring about different situations < This way the situational moments aren't so spontaneous and we have to guess their existence and occurrence. (It's nice to be able to set up situations).

-------

There's a Lucario Mainer named Millin(I think? )

And he has like a Youtube Series called Inner Fire going over tips on Lucario and pretty much all of Lucario's ATs, setups, moves, applications, and situations. I'll post some links -_-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqEOnCgoA0&feature=PlayList&p=67C506468019AA69&index=0&playnext=1 <--- Got the playlist one

This an example of what I think we need one of the better kirbys to do AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER ( You better have read "AFTER") AFTER AFTER AFTER We get the AT thread out. - This way they have something to work from.

We also need a more indepth guide of how to handle specific oppennents.

These can go something like this...

Oppenent: Mr. Game and Spam(Watch).
Describe your oppenent, what he, she, or it has that's OMG O_ O about he, she, or it, or them(IC's T_T)
^ probably to be better done by someone who knows a thing or too about their oppenent? <Mainers

In that (^there) they can go about basically all of the oppennets moves, the oppenent's position in terms of fastest(running), lightest/heaviest, and fastest(falling). - The moves should contain damage and please have things on the angle u're pushed back at? @_@ - The dodge+jump-spin thing that kirby does is VERY useful and can be adapted to generate an entirely new play style.

Warnings about absurd knock back are appreaciated ( T_T...**** snake).

The guides should probably note AT's and popular strategies the oppennet has < some, very popular atleast.

Matchup Listings should be inspected as to why are we at an advantage or disadvantage and how to optimize our position.

And the question of whether or not we take their ability and when or when not too.
We should note AT's with the ability < As I'm sure we'll have. *(Especially kirby + ability only tactics/abilities) <Isn't there something like this already?)

Basically, we need to just have a dump thread. With a Table of Contents to click(example link ....

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199581

That may be the best example...this one

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199581 here it comes again...,
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199581 < BAM!

I think we need something like that...

Alot of work = YES!
Pays off? @_@ - Have you even heard of what's happenning to Jiggly's Meta Game?
I think Jiggly Puff will be leaving the Bottom Tier pretty soon ^+^

Anyways, like I said...(think, w/e)

I think we should go from

This for just gathering data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185822

To this new organized data guide emphasizing, at the end, kirby's ability to adapt, and thus purging into a whole section on how to handle characters (specifically), especially touching up on the whole using of an ability < such a guide does exist, but it seems to go only over the absorption of moves and how to use them, only.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199581

To something like this, which takes all the data, puts it in a video, shows not only application(described in the guide), but shows situations to use it, emphasizes the idea of "mixing it up", and follows maybe chapters? that'll match the rate of the guide online:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqEOnCgoA0&feature=PlayList&p=67C506468019AA69&index=0&playnext=1

 

[t!MmY]

Plu-e, I think your interest and motivation in expanding Kirby's meta game is highly admirable. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone nearly as excited about pushing Kirby's meta game as you. But you have to realize that the Kirby community is trying to expand Kirby's meta game as much as they can, and we've been doing it from day one (and I've been doing it from before day one).

When we say things about how Kirby is not God Tier, and such things as how he is more like Mid-Tier, we are not doing this because we're ignorant and are not/have not tried as many different things in as many different situations against as many different characters as we possibly can. We're saying these things because these are the results of all our practice, research, gameplay, and applications. Just take a look at A1's "Ninja Spike" thread - it shows all the time dedicated by the Kirby community in testing out a single, situational tactic using Kirby's U-throw. And that's just one tactic.

And I have to point out that "Fast Falling" is well-known, has been since SSB1, and is taken into consideration when talking about Kirby's aerial options. What we're saying when we say Kirby's mobility is lacking is just that: he's slow, both in the air and on the ground. At higher levels of play mobility is very important for many things like punishment, mind games, and so forth.

So, again, your input is very much appreciated, indeed it is well-received and the intent is even admired. But please keep in mind that most of us are speaking from a competitive point of view where we see first hand how Kirby is doing in tournaments and what his strengths and weaknesses are.

Edit:
I'm going to check out those links you posted, thanks for including them.

 

[t!MmY]

This guide isn't great.
It gives nice data and that's it...

This saddens me. V_V

Perhaps you do not realize the large number of hours I spent collecting, analyzing, and rechecking all the data, arranging it in a well-written document, and producing here for everyone to read. Not to mention reworking and updating it based on tournament experience throughout the year.

If you did realize that, and still think the guide is not that great, then perhaps you should look at the most current edition at AllisBrawl as well?

 

[Plu-e]

:/
I didn't mean to bash your guide or the kirby community, I apologize for that.

As for kirby never being top tier, :S - You talk about the mobility and I'm sure that you're probably more knowledgeable in that area than I am, but I just can't(won't?) except the idea that kirby isn't the best. If he's not very mobile then I will look into the idea of just not approaching the opponent if necessary. - But I will accept kirby's lack of mobility.

However, I will continue to push kirby's meta game as far as I can and beyond.

Again, I apologize for baggging on the community and your guide and could you link me to the updated aib one please?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Explain to me how Kirby could ever be top tier with the likes of MK,Snake, Marth, Diddy, and hey let's not forget Gayman Watch ******* around on the tier list.

Kirby is a great character, no where near the best though.


I dont understand how you are continuing to push his meta game when you haven't even began.

 

[Asdioh]

yar

Just because he's not "god tier" doesn't mean you can't win with him. By all means, go ahead and win tournaments with him, but unless something drastic happens, he's going to remain simply a "good" character. And if you want to win with him, you have to be a "great" (or lucky) player.

 

[fromundaman]

Kirby is a great character, and if we manage to improve his metagame, he *might* make it to high tier, but he will never be the best. See, the problem is there can only be one 'best' character, and no matter how much we push the metagame, we cannot possibly bypass the character's restrictions.

Basically, until Kirby gets a cape/wings and pulls out his sword, he can't be the best

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby is a great character, and if we manage to improve his metagame, he *might* make it to high tier, but he will never be the best. See, the problem is there can only be one 'best' character, and no matter how much we push the metagame, we cannot possibly bypass the character's restrictions.

Basically, until Kirby gets a cape/wings and pulls out his sword, he can't be the best

lol XD

I can just imagine this...

Kirby wielding his cutter? Priceless.

...unless it's the lag we know as "up b!"

 

[t!MmY]

...but I just can't(won't?) except the idea that kirby isn't the best...
However, I will continue to push kirby's meta game as far as I can and beyond.
...could you link me to the updated aib one please?

I think the best thing to do is accept Kirby's weaknesses and also work with his strengths. I mean, every character has some sort of disadvantage that opponents can take advantage of, it's just that you have to learn to work with a bit more of them when using Kirby.

Here is the Table of Contents for the updated Kirby Guide on All is Brawl:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=39018

 

[t!MmY]

Okay, my computer is being really screwy. Ignore this post.

 

[Plu-e]

I think the best thing to do is accept Kirby's weaknesses and also work with his strengths. I mean, every character has some sort of disadvantage that opponents can take advantage of, it's just that you have to learn to work with a bit more of them when using Kirby.

I think that's a bit of what I plan to be doing :D

- Kirby has an advantage of adaptability and that's exactly what I plan to be using. -

Quick Question(Yes I'm lazy -_-): Who are Kirby's worse matchups and why would you they are?

 

[A1lion835]

I think that's a bit of what I plan to be doing :D

- Kirby has an advantage of adaptability and that's exactly what I plan to be using. -

Quick Question(Yes I'm lazy -_-): Who are Kirby's worse matchups and why would you (think?) they are?

I'd say Snake is kirby's worst matchup. Snake is everything kirby is not, with the added bonus of broken disjoints.

1. You'll be dying at 90%, whereas he'll be dying at 200, if he dies at all.

2. Using grenades to break his combos is a bad idea, because every 2% on you is 1% on Snake.

3. HE JUST DOESN'T DIE. You hit him across the entire field with an fsmash, he doesn't die. He has to use a c4 to regain his cypher, and HE STILL DOESN'T DIE.

4. He camps you to hell and back. And hell again. And then you stay there, because you die and snake frames you.

5. You can't camp nearly as effectively, even with some of the best 'nade tactics ever.

The only advantage you really have is inhale out of cypher=doesn't regain cypher.

/snakerant

Kirby doesn't have a lot of terrible matchups, just a crapload of terrible matchups. I'd say the next-worst might be marth, but with good reading you can beat the crap out of marths.

 

[thrillagorilla]

If you have a match-up question, take it here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032

Your question should be answered on the first post. If not, the first post has links to take you to the community's discussions about different character match-ups. Happy Reading!

Edit: Or A1 could answer your question a split second before I post, lol! Seriously, though. Most MU questions you might have will be answered there.

 

[Plu-e]

I'd say Snake is kirby's worst matchup.

I'd say the next-worst might be marth, but with good reading you can beat the crap out of marths.

Thanks...

@_@

<_<...those are the characters I have the least trouble with against kirby's mathups :S....

Maybe I just fight sucky snakes @_@

 

[fromundaman]

I definitely wouldn't say Snake is Kirby's worst... He's not THAT hard to get around, we can gay him pretty bad, and once he's offstage/in the air, he's going to take a ****-ton of damage before coming back.

Marth is a lot worse...

 

[A1lion835]

I definitely wouldn't say Snake is Kirby's worst... He's not THAT hard to get around, we can gay him pretty bad, and once he's offstage/in the air, he's going to take a ****-ton of damage before coming back.

Marth is a lot worse...

lolol, this is clearly opinion. I see marth as maybe even 55-45 him, but that's only because I can read the crap out of most marths I play (learning to second him helps too). A lot of them seem to like to dair after your dthrow multiple times, which is easily punishable and can lead to kills at high %'s. You just have to wait for him to leave himself open. You can also rolldodge behind his dtilt spam, then rolldodge back when he dancing blades and hopefully punish.

Snake...I just hate. He lives forever, he kills you early, he camps the **** out of you.

Also, would you guys recommend I use kirby or marth vs snake? They both have bad matchups vs him, so iunno...

 

[fromundaman]

lolol, this is clearly opinion. I see marth as maybe even 55-45 him, but that's only because I can read the crap out of most marths I play (learning to second him helps too). A lot of them seem to like to dair after your dthrow multiple times, which is easily punishable and can lead to kills at high %'s. You just have to wait for him to leave himself open. You can also rolldodge behind his dtilt spam, then rolldodge back when he dancing blades and hopefully punish.

Snake...I just hate. He lives forever, he kills you early, he camps the **** out of you.

Also, would you guys recommend I use kirby or marth vs snake? They both have bad matchups vs him, so iunno...

You say as you post something even more opinion oriented... See, this is why I think our Marth discussion was flawed: Matchup discussions do NOT take into account how well you read your opponent. They are supposed to be based on character abilities and what each can do to the other.
Of all the Marth's I've played, I've only ever had trouble with one who was clearly the better player of us two (he doesn't even main or second Marth, he's just better than me), and every other one I've done well against since they were easy to read. HOWEVER, when it comes to character abilities, Marth can make a brick wall which is incredibly complex for Kirby to get around.
Also, advice for rolling behind Dtilt is horrible. Marth users use that Dtilt TO bait a rolldodge behind them (or spotdodge, though that happens less often), so that they might use a reverse Dancing Blade on you (and if you are rolling through that, then the Marth you are playing against is reacting slowly, for it comes out fast enough to hit you out of the first roll.).


A1, I'll respond to the points you made on Snake:

1. You'll be dying at 90%, whereas he'll be dying at 200, if he dies at all.

You are either running into a fresh Utilt (which you should focus on avoiding) and/or are really bad at momentum canceling/DIing. In truth, the only moves that could reliably kill you below 100% are his fresh Utilt, fresh Fsmash, and possibly C4 (and MAYBE Dsmash if it's charged). His Ftilt should be too stale to kill, as should his grenades, and his jab combo and Dtilt don't kill that early.
Also, it is very easy for us to rack damage on him, and we can also kill him with kill moves (which, depending on the situation and stage, can be more or less hard to land.) fairly early (though obviously nowhere near as early as he kills us.).

Also, we can gay him fairly easily with both the pseudo-cutterside and inhale break>footstools (which the only way he can avoid the footstool is to DI away, which stops him from doing a bomb jump, meaning if you inhale him off of his cypher, he's dead.).

2. Using grenades to break his combos is a bad idea, because every 2% on you is 1% on Snake.

Snake has combos? The only things grenade could really help you break out of would be his multi-hit moves, and it's always worth taking the grenade blast rather than just you taking the move's damage (especially if it's something like Dair or Nair).

3. HE JUST DOESN'T DIE. You hit him across the entire field with an fsmash, he doesn't die. He has to use a c4 to regain his cypher, and HE STILL DOESN'T DIE.

Are you just watching him do it? Get offstage and hinder his recovery! Even if he does recover, he will have taken quite a bit of damage. Also, Fsmash will kill Snake relatively early unless your trying to hit him to the complete other side of the stage or hit with the sourspot...

4. He camps you to hell and back. And hell again. And then you stay there, because you die and snake frames you.

Have you ever seen a match between Wario and Snake? I ask because we pretty much have to emulate Wario's style for this matchup. Air camping to an extreme. Even though we are slow, we can utilize this against some characters effectively, like Snake and Lucario.

5. You can't camp nearly as effectively, even with some of the best 'nade tactics ever.

See above.



Don't get me wrong, this is not an easy matchup. However, saying that it is Kirby's worst or that we have nothing on him is a GROSS overstatement.

 

[A1lion835]

I didn't mean that you should always roll behind the dtilt...should've made that clearer >.>.

You say as you post something even more opinion oriented... See, this is why I think our Marth discussion was flawed: Matchup discussions do NOT take into account how well you read your opponent. They are supposed to be based on character abilities and what each can do to the other.

Alright, you've got me on that one. In that case, marth is a pretty bad matchup...I just find him easier to beat than most other people.

You are either running into a fresh Utilt (which you should focus on avoiding) and/or are really bad at momentum canceling/DIing. In truth, the only moves that could reliably kill you below 100% are his fresh Utilt, fresh Fsmash, and possibly C4 (and MAYBE Dsmash if it's charged). His Ftilt should be too stale to kill, as should his grenades, and his jab combo and Dtilt don't kill that early.

It's an exaggeration. No, it isn't that extreme, but it's still pretty bad. You can't always be out of utilt range at KO %'s, and eventually it's gonna get you. He might have been focusing on refreshing his ftilt, and, unfortunately, 2 KO moves is all snake needs.

Also, it is very easy for us to rack damage on him, and we can also kill him with kill moves (which, depending on the situation and stage, can be more or less hard to land.) fairly early (though obviously nowhere near as early as he kills us.).

Such as...

I'm not saying that you're wrong on this point, but I want you to explain more.

Also, we can gay him fairly easily with both the pseudo-cutterside and inhale break>footstools (which the only way he can avoid the footstool is to DI away, which stops him from doing a bomb jump, meaning if you inhale him off of his cypher, he's dead.).

We can pseudo-cuttercide snake? I thought the downward blow didn't deal enough damage to hit him out of his cypher, and we'd just fall to our deaths. And I'll concede to you on the inhale break>footstools...but how many times do you think you'll get that on him before he learns to avoid it?

Snake has combos? The only things grenade could really help you break out of would be his multi-hit moves, and it's always worth taking the grenade blast rather than just you taking the move's damage (especially if it's something like Dair or Nair).

There are strings, like he can follow up a few throws with a mortar slide and such.

Are you just watching him do it? Get offstage and hinder his recovery! Even if he does recover, he will have taken quite a bit of damage. Also, Fsmash will kill Snake relatively early unless your trying to hit him to the complete other side of the stage or hit with the sourspot...

I'm not just watching him do it. You can bair him out of cypher, [sometimes] knock him away from his C4, but he still doesn't die. He's just really heavy. Middle of FD, try fsmashing a snake in training. He'll probably die at 120%ish. Add in good momentum canceling, and he lives pretty long.

Have you ever seen a match between Wario and Snake?

Um...no, but I'll take that advice (no sarcasm).

 

[fromundaman]

I didn't mean that you should always roll behind the dtilt...should've made that clearer >.>.

Ah, gotcha. My bad then.

Alright, you've got me on that one. In that case, marth is a pretty bad matchup...I just find him easier to beat than most other people.

Yeah, so far I've always done pretty well against Marth mainers (on BF most of the time no less), but objectively speaking, a really good Marth would be very tough for Kirby to hit (I'm not saying we have nothing on him either, for we do, but he also seems to have more on us.).

It's an exaggeration. No, it isn't that extreme, but it's still pretty bad. You can't always be out of utilt range at KO %'s, and eventually it's gonna get you. He might have been focusing on refreshing his ftilt, and, unfortunately, 2 KO moves is all snake needs.

Meh, I haven't personally had that much trouble avoiding Utilts since Bair can beat it out if coming from above as he starts it, not to mention he will have trouble hitting you with it if you play defensively. Also it would be kind of hard for him to refresh his Ftilt seeing as how that's his main punishing move. If he stops using it odds are he'll eat quite a bit of percent.
Still, Snake does in fact kill us fairly easily, but he will have a lot of trouble hitting with his kill moves if you play very defensively/air campy.

Such as...

I'm not saying that you're wrong on this point, but I want you to explain more.

Well, for example, on YI(Brawl), his mortar slides can be punished by air hammer. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but I did it 3-4 times in one match against Smash64, so...
Also, stone sliding can help a lot, water canceled stones (since there's no reason for Snake to bomb jump above water against someone without a strong spike, so they probably won't do it), reading airdodges back to the ground and punishing with smashes, etc.

As for racking damage, his recovery is fairly linear and not very hard to punish, He's going to cypher, air dodge off it when you jump towards him, then try to bomb jump or grab the edge. *Maybe* he'll try to pull out a grenade as well if you're juggling him. any time he's in the air, he is ripe for Uair chains and WoPs, or really anything else you want to do to him. Aerial hammer is also great for punishing him if he airdodges off of the cypher due to the second swing, and if it hits, the second swing will almost always kill him in that position.
His aerials aren't fast enough to compete with ours either, and his fastest ones often last too long to allow recovery.

Basically, any time he is in the air he is at a disadvantage.

We can pseudo-cuttercide snake? I thought the downward blow didn't deal enough damage to hit him out of his cypher, and we'd just fall to our deaths. And I'll concede to you on the inhale break>footstools...but how many times do you think you'll get that on him before he learns to avoid it?

I thought we could. I've never personally tried it, but I thought Gonzo's thread said you could. I could be wrong on that.

As for the inhales... how would you suggest he avoid them? To my knowledge, only a perfectly spaced Utilt, Ftilt, and the 3rd hit of the jab (as well as projectiles obviously, and possibly a mortar slide) can outrange inhale, and we can inhale him off of his cypher. What's he going to do, try to airdodge through it? He'll only airdodge into it. Snake is actually one of the easier characters to get into an inhale once he's in the air.
Even if he does start trying to avoid it and somehow does, he's going to have to change up his playstyle to do it, in which case he'll be leaving himself open to other things. He has no *perfect* solution to this.

There are strings, like he can follow up a few throws with a mortar slide and such.

Yeah, but Snake has considerably less than other characters, and the ones he does have are harder to set up (minus the Dthrow ones, and Utilt chains at low percents.).

I'm not just watching him do it. You can bair him out of cypher, [sometimes] knock him away from his C4, but he still doesn't die. He's just really heavy. Middle of FD, try fsmashing a snake in training. He'll probably die at 120%ish. Add in good momentum canceling, and he lives pretty long.

Right, but now if you're offstage messing with his recovery, while he is probably going to recover, you should be able to deal a fair amount of damage *most* of the time. On top of that, you always have the option to inhale him off his cypher (which most Snake's probably won't know about the first time around, then be worried about trying to avoid the rest of the match and eventually mess stuff up, and still probably get inhaled later. They're going to get the same mentality as people who play against ICs, only instead of "Don't get grabbed!" it's "Don't get inhaled", and they are going to have to reshape their game around it. Add into that the fact that with air campy Kirby, they should be forced to approach, then that makes for a bad situation for Snake.) Basically, when he's offstage, harrass him, because that's the best situation Kirby can get. Knocking him away from C4 is tough though unless you're Mario.



Um...no, but I'll take that advice (no sarcasm).

It's REALLY boring, and you will have to play patiently, but it works.

Replies in red.

 

[A1lion835]

I hate it when you do that; I can't quote your quote!

Ah, gotcha. My bad then.

My bad, actually, but w/e.

Yeah, so far I've always done pretty well against Marth mainers (on BF most of the time no less), but objectively speaking, a really good Marth would be very tough for Kirby to hit (I'm not saying we have nothing on him either, for we do, but he also seems to have more on us.).

Winning on bf vs marth is awesomerific (no sarcasm, again), and I personally think it's more awesome than it is, because I wouldn't cp battlefield if my life depended on it. I just seem to have awful luck there...I should send you a replay or something, and you'll see what I mean by bad luck Y_Y.

Meh, I haven't personally had that much trouble avoiding Utilts since Bair can beat it out if coming from above as he starts it, not to mention he will have trouble hitting you with it if you play defensively. Also it would be kind of hard for him to refresh his Ftilt seeing as how that's his main punishing move. If he stops using it odds are he'll eat quite a bit of percent.
Still, Snake does in fact kill us fairly easily, but he will have a lot of trouble hitting with his kill moves if you play very defensively/air campy.

As for the utilts, he could probably use a dash-canceled-sheild-canceled-jump canceled-utilt or something to space away and have you try to beat the disjoint. And as for the ftilt refreshing, he could probably just grab and pummel a bunch of times, no? I seem to recall that his pummel naturally ends/has IASA frames very early in.


Well, for example, on YI(Brawl), his mortar slides can be punished by air hammer. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but I did it 3-4 times in one match against Smash64, so...
Also, stone sliding can help a lot, water canceled stones (since there's no reason for Snake to bomb jump above water against someone without a strong spike, so they probably won't do it), reading airdodges back to the ground and punishing with smashes, etc.

As for racking damage, his recovery is fairly linear and not very hard to punish, He's going to cypher, air dodge off it when you jump towards him, then try to bomb jump or grab the edge. *Maybe* he'll try to pull out a grenade as well if you're juggling him. any time he's in the air, he is ripe for Uair chains and WoPs, or really anything else you want to do to him. Aerial hammer is also great for punishing him if he airdodges off of the cypher due to the second swing, and if it hits, the second swing will almost always kill him in that position.
His aerials aren't fast enough to compete with ours either, and his fastest ones often last too long to allow recovery.

Basically, any time he is in the air he is at a disadvantage.

What does YI Brawl have anything to do with it? Couldn't you punish it the same way on FD...? Are you talking about the little depression in the middle of the platform or the pass-through? W/e...

and yea, we definitely have the advantage if he's in the air. I could only prove we didn't if I divided by 0 or something...

I thought we could. I've never personally tried it, but I thought Gonzo's thread said you could. I could be wrong on that.

As for the inhales... how would you suggest he avoid them? To my knowledge, only a perfectly spaced Utilt, Ftilt, and the 3rd hit of the jab (as well as projectiles obviously, and possibly a mortar slide) can outrange inhale, and we can inhale him off of his cypher. What's he going to do, try to airdodge through it? He'll only airdodge into it. Snake is actually one of the easier characters to get into an inhale once he's in the air.
Even if he does start trying to avoid it and somehow does, he's going to have to change up his playstyle to do it, in which case he'll be leaving himself open to other things. He has no *perfect* solution to this.

Um...could a well-spaced fair do it? I could imagine a bair doing it if he fell down on us with it, but can he hurt us like that? I always think "he stuck his feet out behind him...kirby bair!" Does he have a hurtbox long enough to bair>fastfall and hit us out of inhale?

Yeah, but Snake has considerably less than other characters, and the ones he does have are harder to set up (minus the Dthrow ones, and Utilt chains at low percents.).

Alright, point conceded.

Right, but now if you're offstage messing with his recovery, while he is probably going to recover, you should be able to deal a fair amount of damage *most* of the time. On top of that, you always have the option to inhale him off his cypher (which most Snake's probably won't know about the first time around, then be worried about trying to avoid the rest of the match and eventually mess stuff up, and still probably get inhaled later. They're going to get the same mentality as people who play against ICs, only instead of "Don't get grabbed!" it's "Don't get inhaled", and they are going to have to reshape their game around it. Add into that the fact that with air campy Kirby, they should be forced to approach, then that makes for a bad situation for Snake.) Basically, when he's offstage, harrass him, because that's the best situation Kirby can get. Knocking him away from C4 is tough though unless you're Mario.

Point also conceded, though there has to be some way he can avoid that damage...iunno.

 

[fromundaman]

I hate it when you do that; I can't quote your quote!

Meh, I haven't personally had that much trouble avoiding Utilts since Bair can beat it out if coming from above as he starts it, not to mention he will have trouble hitting you with it if you play defensively. Also it would be kind of hard for him to refresh his Ftilt seeing as how that's his main punishing move. If he stops using it odds are he'll eat quite a bit of percent.
Still, Snake does in fact kill us fairly easily, but he will have a lot of trouble hitting with his kill moves if you play very defensively/air campy.

As for the utilts, he could probably use a dash-canceled-sheild-canceled-jump canceled-utilt or something to space away and have you try to beat the disjoint. And as for the ftilt refreshing, he could probably just grab and pummel a bunch of times, no? I seem to recall that his pummel naturally ends/has IASA frames very early in.


Well, for example, on YI(Brawl), his mortar slides can be punished by air hammer. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but I did it 3-4 times in one match against Smash64, so...
Also, stone sliding can help a lot, water canceled stones (since there's no reason for Snake to bomb jump above water against someone without a strong spike, so they probably won't do it), reading airdodges back to the ground and punishing with smashes, etc.

As for racking damage, his recovery is fairly linear and not very hard to punish, He's going to cypher, air dodge off it when you jump towards him, then try to bomb jump or grab the edge. *Maybe* he'll try to pull out a grenade as well if you're juggling him. any time he's in the air, he is ripe for Uair chains and WoPs, or really anything else you want to do to him. Aerial hammer is also great for punishing him if he airdodges off of the cypher due to the second swing, and if it hits, the second swing will almost always kill him in that position.
His aerials aren't fast enough to compete with ours either, and his fastest ones often last too long to allow recovery.

Basically, any time he is in the air he is at a disadvantage.

What does YI Brawl have anything to do with it? Couldn't you punish it the same way on FD...? Are you talking about the little depression in the middle of the platform or the pass-through? W/e...

and yea, we definitely have the advantage if he's in the air. I could only prove we didn't if I divided by 0 or something...

I thought we could. I've never personally tried it, but I thought Gonzo's thread said you could. I could be wrong on that.

As for the inhales... how would you suggest he avoid them? To my knowledge, only a perfectly spaced Utilt, Ftilt, and the 3rd hit of the jab (as well as projectiles obviously, and possibly a mortar slide) can outrange inhale, and we can inhale him off of his cypher. What's he going to do, try to airdodge through it? He'll only airdodge into it. Snake is actually one of the easier characters to get into an inhale once he's in the air.
Even if he does start trying to avoid it and somehow does, he's going to have to change up his playstyle to do it, in which case he'll be leaving himself open to other things. He has no *perfect* solution to this.

Um...could a well-spaced fair do it? I could imagine a bair doing it if he fell down on us with it, but can he hurt us like that? I always think "he stuck his feet out behind him...kirby bair!" Does he have a hurtbox long enough to bair>fastfall and hit us out of inhale?

Ooops... sorry.

I'm not saying he can't land Utilts, just that you know, once you're in kill percents you're going to focus on avoiding it like other characters try to avoid our Fsmash. Basically, we won't make it easy for him to hit with, and it's not unbeatable, so it's not a guaranteed "oh you're dead" move either.

It has to do with the tilt at the end of the YI platform. For some reason it seems to make him more vulnerable and he dips right into a hammer swing. I dunno, could be just an impression, but I can't seem to make it work anywhere else.
It could also be because the stage is small enough so that he can cross the entire stage and still be in the animation when he reaches the edge, thus stays there longer. *shrugs*

Fair is so telegraphed though... he'd have to start it before we start inhale for it to hit in time, in which case you could just not inhale. I dunno... I'm sure it *could* hit, but how often is it going to?
Also, for Bair, if he's recovering towards the stage, his head should be facing towards us, meaning his hitbox isn't disjoincted, meaning inhale wins. If he's above you, shouldn't you be doing a Uair anyway? (Unless you expected him to AD to the ground, tried to read it and inhale him out of it, and got mindgamed.)

 

[Plu-e]

- Look what I've started

This is kinda of proving my point :/

These matchups that kirby has trouble with...aren't so troublesome?

It seems clear that if you can read a character, then you should've be having too much trouble with them. Ultimately, it can come down to the better reader.

- Out of curiosity, has anyone analyzed the limitations on a characters motion?

^ By this I mean...

If I encountered a snake (the actual reptile) I wouldn't expect it to jump at me like a kangaroo, fly, or be able to strike at me in certain positions. < there's like some way to hold a snake at it's head and it can't bite you.

My point is, we know about the mechanics behind the game in the sense of damage, speed, and combos - etc., but what about a characters kinetic limits and abilities
^
^< Metaknight's limits on movement are very finite and he seems to be able to go places multifariously.
Yet, I would approach him under certain conditions - such as....... <_<..anyways -

My point is that, it seems when this is taken into account, snake is very AGILE < THATS THE WORD IM LOOKING FOR >.
He isn't as pliable as Marth, however Kirby has some pretty good mobility(NOT SPEED) T_T, and his attacks seem well designed to compliment it - appearently, more so than Marth's because even I - seemingly VERY noobish - have little to no trouble with Marths above and at my level.

Anyways, my point is...

Who's kirby's worse matchup - taking into account that Marth seems to lack the ability to optimize his agility in order to handle kirby most efficiently.

^ Yes, I did through in some vocab words in there,

 

[fromundaman]

- Look what I've started

This is kinda of proving my point :/

These matchups that kirby has trouble with...aren't so troublesome?

It seems clear that if you can read a character, then you should've be having too much trouble with them. Ultimately, it can come down to the better reader.

- Out of curiosity, has anyone analyzed the limitations on a characters motion?

^ By this I mean...

If I encountered a snake (the actual reptile) I wouldn't expect it to jump at me like a kangaroo, fly, or be able to strike at me in certain positions. < there's like some way to hold a snake at it's head and it can't bite you.

My point is, we know about the mechanics behind the game in the sense of damage, speed, and combos - etc., but what about a characters kinetic limits and abilities
^
^< Metaknight's limits on movement are very finite and he seems to be able to go places multifariously.
Yet, I would approach him under certain conditions - such as....... <_<..anyways -

My point is that, it seems when this is taken into account, snake is very AGILE < THATS THE WORD IM LOOKING FOR >.
He isn't as pliable as Marth, however Kirby has some pretty good mobility(NOT SPEED) T_T, and his attacks seem well designed to compliment it - appearently, more so than Marth's because even I - seemingly VERY noobish - have little to no trouble with Marths above and at my level.

Anyways, my point is...

Who's kirby's worse matchup - taking into account that Marth seems to lack the ability to optimize his agility in order to handle kirby most efficiently.

^ Yes, I did through in some vocab words in there,

Your post doesn't make much sense...

Being a better reader has nothing to do with a matchup, it has to do with being the better player.
Even a CF or Link player can **** you if he reads you that much better.

Your second to last statement bugs me in particular... How does Marth lack the ability to optimize his agility against us? In fact, how does anyone? Kirby is not agile. At all.

 

[thrillagorilla]

- Look what I've started

This is kinda of proving my point :/

These matchups that kirby has trouble with...aren't so troublesome?

It seems clear that if you can read a character, then you should've be having too much trouble with them. Ultimately, it can come down to the better reader.

- Out of curiosity, has anyone analyzed the limitations on a characters motion?

^ By this I mean...

If I encountered a snake (the actual reptile) I wouldn't expect it to jump at me like a kangaroo, fly, or be able to strike at me in certain positions. < there's like some way to hold a snake at it's head and it can't bite you.

My point is, we know about the mechanics behind the game in the sense of damage, speed, and combos - etc., but what about a characters kinetic limits and abilities
^
^< Metaknight's limits on movement are very finite and he seems to be able to go places multifariously.
Yet, I would approach him under certain conditions - such as....... <_<..anyways -

My point is that, it seems when this is taken into account, snake is very AGILE < THATS THE WORD IM LOOKING FOR >.
He isn't as pliable as Marth, however Kirby has some pretty good mobility(NOT SPEED) T_T, and his attacks seem well designed to compliment it - appearently, more so than Marth's because even I - seemingly VERY noobish - have little to no trouble with Marths above and at my level.

Anyways, my point is...

Who's kirby's worse matchup - taking into account that Marth seems to lack the ability to optimize his agility in order to handle kirby most efficiently.

^ Yes, I did through in some vocab words in there,

I mentioned this a while ago, and I'm going to mention it again. Read the MU thread. I even gave a link to it in my previous post on this thread. I am not saying this strictly because that is where MU discussions belong (which they do) but also because you don't seem understand how MU discussions work. You are assuming that because you have an easy time with Marth players, it is due to it not being a difficult MU for Kirby. Marth DOES have the tools to tear Kirby apart, but the limitations that allow for Kirby players to win have more to do with the players and not the characters themselves. Allow me to elaborate. Kirby's limitations come primarily from lack of mobility. He can't move very quickly around the screen. Kirby's strength lies in quickly executed and powerful moves that deal out a good percentage per hit. To allow for the use of said moves, Kirby players have adapted a play-style of reading their opponents and trying to bait an attack that will miss. The Kirby will then move in and take advantage of their powerful move-set. This is how we get around our weaknesses and exploit our strengths. Look at Marth by comparison. He has fluid movement with disjointed hit-boxes and high priority/damage. He is also very fast and agile. In general, he has the advantage against other characters, so he doesn't need to read his opponents nearly as much to be effective. In essence, Marth's character strengths have helped to develop a much different play-style than Kirby. The end result is this...

Marth plays like he normally would, putting up his wall of priority. We as Kirby PLAYERS see it coming a mile away and exploit, just like we always do. Said Marth player is then at a disadvantage, because they need to change their play-style mid-match, or continue the same set of instances over and over until the Marth is smashed into oblivion.

On the other hand...

If the Marth player is already used to a more defensive play-style and plays with the intention not being read, Marth as a CHARACTER has the tools to win and even tear apart Kirby as a character, because the Kirby can no longer get around his greatest weakness... LACK of mobility. This second scenario is what we rate our MU discussions on, not the first scenario. Also, if you are going to post on how a character has greater movement (Snake? ) than another character against us, make sure that you have done your research or know the character. Snake's mobility doesn't necessarily come from his options, but limiting the opponents'. I digress... Just start reading through the MU guide, and I think you'll start to get the idea .

 

[t!MmY]

I have just finished importing all the updates from All is Brawl into this guide. Enjoy. -^_^-

 

[cookieM0Nster]

New Kirby tech?

IDK where to post this so I am posting it here. Maybe it can go into the guide?

OK, well I think that someone should look into this: If you do Kirby's back throw, he falls a little to get to the ground, right? What I have been doing lately is buffering a jump before I get to the ground so that I could do an arial right after. It sets up for co,bos off stage. Try this out, and lmk if you guys think that it is viable as a technique. This tech is good for comboing off stage. If any1 could make a video of this, it would be appreciated.

On a side note, If you use Back throw at the edge of the stage, you fall onto the edge and edgeguard automatically. This is most ****ing definitely known.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's called back throw, back grab makes no sense. I'm pretty sure combos cant be done out of b throw, that would be really weird for us to not know, and the latter part is really really obvious. Wow back throw can get them off stage, that's totally hard to figure out. Change most likely to most ****ing definitely. =/

 

[cookieM0Nster]

It's called back throw, back grab makes no sense. I'm pretty sure combos cant be done out of b throw, that would be really weird for us to not know, and the latter part is really really obvious. Wow back throw can get them off stage, that's totally hard to figure out. Change most likely to most ****ing definitely. =/

Sorry bout the back grab part, i am just tired. Did you read the whole thing? I said that if you buffer a jump at the end of the back throw, you CAN combo out of it w/h arials. It is faster than NOT buffering the jump, and it can lead to TRUE combos. I should have mentioned that..

Also, edited the last part, lol.

 

[A1lion835]

Both parts are known. Galaxy came up with "the 0%" a while ago which was bair>buffered jump>dair, but it didn't work. The drifting to the edge thing is known, or at least has been known by me for over a year.

And the back throw was only good in melee, where you kirbycided really quickly with it.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Yea, I know the last thing too. Also, thanx for telling me, as this is similar to what you said.

 

[Falconv1.0]

F throw is really the main thing for combos, d throw is for when you cant combo, u throw is for great justice.

 

[fromundaman]

F throw is really the main thing for combos, d throw is for when you cant combo, u throw is for great justice.

Exa- wait whut?
Dthrow can't combo? Are you serious? Dthrow combos (or strings rather) are MUCH better than Fthrow ones.

-They're Dthrown at 0 percent. You can buffer a Utilt without punishment. The only way for them to dodge is a FS jump or rising AD. Pressure their landing and punish it, preferably with another Dthrow.
After you,ve done that once, they can AD to the ground to evade the Utilt. Enjoy your free grab, or redo the previous steps.
After that, Utilt is no longer an option, but you can still shieldgrab, Uair/chase with aerials, or pressure their landing and punish.

Now on top of all this, unlike with Fthrow, DI and sex kicks don't mess this up, and it does the most damage of all the throws. It also allows for mindgames (hell, I've pulled off Dthrow>Utilt>shieldgrab Fthrow>hammer a number of times, and done Dthrow Fsmash a few others, though I prefer the method I just mentioned myself.).

Uthrow is also good for Kirby tricks.

 

[Asdioh]

Backthrow at the edge of the stage for an automatic edge grab? I did not know that...

I also didn't know about buffering jumps. I do remember Galaxy's thread from a while back, but I figured it was just working for me since I was using it on computers. Doesn't DI make it so that you can't do true combos out of Backthrow?

I dunno.

Backthrow is pretty good for teams, since it's quick.

 

[A1lion835]

fromundamam, to add on to what you said, dthrow->reverse hammer is too good (if they're the kind of people who try to hit you after a dthrow). Then they're all D: and wanna kill a puppy.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Exa- wait whut?
Dthrow can't combo? Are you serious? Dthrow combos (or strings rather) are MUCH better than Fthrow ones.

I didn't say D throw cant combo. Reread my post, I said if you cant combo, as in, when they've taken too much damage. I'm almost certain if you can do it f throw to uair to reverse u tilt bair(s) does more damage. On lighter characters I do use d throw for that regrab.

Nice try, come again. >_<