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Kirby Question and Answer/Helpful Thread directory! <(^_^)>

Kewkky

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Depends on the character, sorry but it's the only true answer here. Some characters slide too far to do anything, others have moves that are too short, etc etc... Some characters will hit you or grab you because they have the range, an item in hand, or the traction to prevent them from sliding too far. Also, it depends on the terrain where you're at, if you hit them with your aerial hammer next to a slope that goes upwards, chances are you're safe. If it's a slope that goes downwards, chances are you'll get hit.
 

Sage JoWii

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In regards to inhale as a mixup: Don't bother. The risk/reward has too great a risk. If you see any top Kirby videos, you'll notice they never inhale.

As far as hitting at the maximum range with Aerial Hammer: Again, risk/reward isn't favorable.

You won't be safe because of RCO lag. Also, Aerial Hammer, while strong when it lands, isn't a great move to just throw out at any given time. It's useful when recovering from off-stage if you go to the ledge and make yourself a safe landing on the stage.

----------------
About recovering from offstage:

If you're already next to the edge, and you have 2 jumps to spare, I like to simply turn myself around so I can recover with BAir out. It's something you may want to try out on your own.
 

t!MmY

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Good players don't use Inhale
Inhale would be a good mix-up against a Shield except that it doesn't hit until at least frame 19. This gives both good players and not-so-good players the chance to punish you. The good players will usually react in those 18 frames and either dodge or hit you before the Inhale lands. The not-so-good players will not consciously understand the situation but they can have a 'knee-jerk reaction' to your approach and hit you anyway (jump-canceled Shield into Aerial or U-special being the most common).

There's always the chance that the opponent is simply bracing themselves for the ShieldHitLag that they expect. This is where they have a routine response to someone hitting their Shield and then executing a specific attack. Someone sitting in their Shield like this can 'freeze up' when they see the Inhale start; they've told themselves to hold that Shield no matter what. In this instance the Inhale will succeed as a mix-up. The bummer is that for all this work the reward is pretty paltry.

A side note about the Aerial Hammer. A lot of people have no experience punishing the Giant Swing, and as a consequence will often whiff a punish out of Shield. This is because they are not used to the distance they get pushed back or the amount of ShieldHitLag that they receive. Aiming for the very edge of their Shield and then immediately pulling away is the best spacing for this tactic. Though remember what Kewkky said, some characters are good at punishing something laggy out of shield regardless of distance, and others are not (Luigi lol).

This is an especially good mix-up on someone close to a ledge. It will drain their Shield and knock them over the edge nullifying their counter attack.
 

-Cross-

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Depends on the character, sorry but it's the only true answer here. Some characters slide too far to do anything, others have moves that are too short, etc etc... Some characters will hit you or grab you because they have the range, an item in hand, or the traction to prevent them from sliding too far. Also, it depends on the terrain where you're at, if you hit them with your aerial hammer next to a slope that goes upwards, chances are you're safe. If it's a slope that goes downwards, chances are you'll get hit.
I figured that I should have asked if aerial hammer is safe in general, but you do bring up a lot of good points, I, however, was not under the impression that aerial hammer could be shield grabbed b/c it was disjointed. Unless the shield stun on that move is garbage which I do not believe is true either.

In regards to inhale as a mixup: Don't bother. The risk/reward has too great a risk. If you see any top Kirby videos, you'll notice they never inhale.
It's true that the risk/reward is not that great for Inhale, especially when you factor Kirby's weight which isn't the worst but isn't like DK/Snake where you can keep going for ridiculous options because you have the % to tank it. However, the problem I see is that bair can get ridiculously stale to the point that people with decent OoS games can punish it even without perfect shielding it. It just seems to me that going against opponents who are shield happy once they see you in the air, b/c they expect that bair and they know they can punish, would be very susceptible to essentially an air grab.

Good players don't use Inhale
Inhale would be a good mix-up against a Shield except that it doesn't hit until at least frame 19. This gives both good players and not-so-good players the chance to punish you. The good players will usually react in those 18 frames and either dodge or hit you before the Inhale lands. The not-so-good players will not consciously understand the situation but they can have a 'knee-jerk reaction' to your approach and hit you anyway (jump-canceled Shield into Aerial or U-special being the most common).

There's always the chance that the opponent is simply bracing themselves for the ShieldHitLag that they expect. This is where they have a routine response to someone hitting their Shield and then executing a specific attack. Someone sitting in their Shield like this can 'freeze up' when they see the Inhale start; they've told themselves to hold that Shield no matter what. In this instance the Inhale will succeed as a mix-up. The bummer is that for all this work the reward is pretty paltry.
First off, great post addressed a lot of things that I found helpful. The issue with opponents that have an automatic OoS option which will beat inhale is very valid. But few characters imo have a good automatic OoS option like Marth's fair that would be safe to just throw out there. Which is why barring a few MU's, it could still be a decent mixup.

The issue of the reward being rather meh has been mentioned quite a few times though, but isn't this the same with D3? As in couldn't we also apply inhale similarly to how D3 does inhale? Granted I understand that there a couple of key issues that prevent Kirby from totally applying inhale like D3, mainly the fact that he isn't as heavy so he must be more stingy with the damage he takes and that he doesn't fall nearly as fast so it won't catch people off guard as easily either (it also seems that D3's inhale comes out a bit faster(?) but there is not frame data for him on his inhale), but when Kirby is hovering in the air or SH'ing with his back toward you, as the opponent you know that bair is going to come out almost 100% of the time. This is also the same situation with D3. Yet D3 (well maybe just Coney) use Inhale very successfully as a mixup, and I don't see why Kirby should not incorporate it more into his game.

Also imo the risk/reward is actually not as bad as people put it in the situation I am thinking about: When your bair is already stale because your past 3-5 hits have been with it and you still want to keep up some pressure. Let's consider the case that your opponent's character can start punishing your bair once it has staled 4-5x because of its reduced shield stun. In this case, the reward of using bair and not getting punished is 1) some more shield decay or 2) damage of a decayed bair. The risk would be the % dealt by their best punishment option. If you use inhale instead your reward would be 1) Damage from a fresh move 2) Situational (MU Dependent) option of Kirbyciding 3) Reduce Decay on bair 4) Keep opponent wary. The risk would be the same, because, as Timmy pointed out, the only thing that would stop a mixup inhale preemptively would be their automatic OoS option.

Thus the % spread for stale bair and its potential followups and the damage you would take for getting punished vs the damage you get from fresh inhale and the damage you would take for getting punished is pretty similar and inhale accomplishes a bit more for you. I feel that some of you are under the impression that using inhale will lead into a very high % punish from the opponent which it could but I feel that's overgeneralizing. If you conditioned your opponent to expect that bair (something that most Kirby's probably end up doing intentionally or unintentionally), then the punish the opponent has would be their knee jerk OoS reaction to seeing inhale which shouldn't be any different from how they would plan to punish your bair granted that they could punish your bair in the first place.

Well sorry for the wall of text, I hope you don't pass this off as mindless theorycrafting, because I do believe that I have some practical legitimacy in my thoughts.
 

Kewkky

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Yeah, your air hammer can be shieldgrabbed if you use it in the middle of a stage and your opponent has a long enough tether grab. They could dash grab, or if it's long enough and the terrain permits is, a standing grab.
 

-Cross-

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Yeah, your air hammer can be shieldgrabbed if you use it in the middle of a stage and your opponent has a long enough tether grab. They could dash grab, or if it's long enough and the terrain permits is, a standing grab.
Ah right tether grabs. I wasn't thinking about those lol. But on flat ground, even D3 can't standing grab it right?
 

Kewkky

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Nope, DDD can't standing grab you if you space it. Unless you're right on him and do the worst spacing ever, he won't be grabbing you anytime soon with a standing grab.
 

Sage JoWii

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All I'm going to say else is, if you refer to mix-up as once per set, then inhale is a mix-up. If you talk about inhale as once per match, it's risking a lot more than a mix-up.
 

Kappy

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I think Inhale's a great mix-up, and I use it all the time. Utilt -> Bair -> Inhale catches most AD's, and I think Inhale has better follow-ups than another Bair. If you spit someone out, you can follow-up with Uair or chase their jump and punish their landing. With Bair, you just get another Bair and it'll be stale, whereas spit-out does a nice 10%. If you copy, then you got yourself a free copy.

I also use Inhale off-stage. If I have the stock lead, and my opponent is recovering, I'll run out there and aggressively Inhale. If you're a good player, your DI should be good, and you should be teching, so the worst punish for using Inhale is being spiked, and at that point your opponent has probably killed his/herself anyway. If you're hit out of it, then get back to the stage and begin edge-hogging or try it again if they like to drop down from the ledge a couple times.

A reverse Inhale and wave-bounced Inhale really works against a lot of characters, and after one Inhale your opponent will realize that Kirby doesn't just have Bair, and you can start baiting out Up-B's and punishes for Inhale and you can punish those with an aerial or wave-bounced Inhale/Hammer. I don't know about you guys, but that kind of intrusive thought-provoking seems like a pretty good reward to me.

I don't see why the risk is so much worse than the reward considering Kirby getting hit out of his Bair is common, and Inhale can Grab Armor a move. If you get hit by one Smash attack, then you get hit by one Smash attack. And Kirby's Inhale is faster on cooldown than most people realize. I've PS'd many punishes because of how deceptively fast it cools down.

By the way, good players shouldn't be using any move remotely risky once they're in kill %'s, anyway. LOL. I only use Inhale @ low %'s or when I'm going for a Hail Mary Kirbycide.

If you're not using Inhale as a mix-up, then you're not being creative, and while Kirby isn't rewarded greatly with creativity because his mix-ups aren't the fastest, he is rewarded for it if you play smart and get inside your opponent's head. Denying Inhale simply because it's slow and has a supposedly bad risk/reward ratio for it is denying all the possible hard reads on-stage you could get with Inhale. Inhale is not only viable offstage.
 

Anragon

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Sorry Cross, I forgot your first question o/

Hum, Inhale is a great move and mix things with it is good too. FH Bair › Reverse Wavebounced Inhale can catch many people who try to punish/follow you.

I also love use Inhale in combos, especially when I want to copy(which I always do 'cuz I love it).
U-air › U-tilt › Inhale is crazy good at 0-10% againt heavies/fast-fallers :D
Good players have good creativity imo, never use Inhale(onstage) is restrictive.

Oh and it ***** DACUS or special moves like Sonic Side-B.
 

t!MmY

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@Cross
Inhale with Dedede is a viable and effective tool. You've pretty much covered the reasons why it works so well in your previous post (faster fall speed). Dedede's Inhale is almost the same timing (I think it's 1-frame faster: hits on 17 whereas Kirby's hits on 18*) but more importantly it has a greater range than Kirby's Inhale. This allows him to strike a little sooner and a little further away. All of this combined means he can start it sooner from higher up fall down faster and gobble them up from farther away and possible 1-frame more quickly than Kirby.

And yes, taking into consideration an extremely stale B-air other attacks start becoming a better choice, including Inhale. You still have to consider the Inhale option against all other options Kirby has at his disposal.

Consider:
U-air - exceptional Auto-Cancel timing (and low Landing Lag)
Giant Swing - high Shield KnockBack
Stone - good Shield Damage and Shield Knockback
Final Cutter - multi-hit and can 'Ledge-Grab Cancel'

The above might not be 'optimal' or even 'safe' in general play, but in specific conditions they can work out well as a mix-up to B-air.

Also consider:
'Empty Jump' - fast falling (for 6 or fewer frames from apex of jump) and executing a grab (5 frames) is still faster than executing an Inhale (11 frames versus 18 frames). Additionally it allots for greater control and options in the hands of the Kirby player; you still have the option to put up a Shield, go for a ground-based attack, etc. whereas with Inhale you are stuck in your inhale for a full second (60 frames) before you can do anything else.

The 60 frames 'Duration Lag' that you get with a whiffed Inhale can also compare to the risk factor of the other options that I exampled above (hence how useful U-air's Auto-Cancel can be).

Risk vs Reward
In light of the above information, I just want to revisit this topic. 60-frames of Inhale is more than enough time for the opponent to dish out some very damaging punishment. Smash Attacks are generally 10 to 16 frames of start-up, and even if you combine that with the duration of a Rolling Dodge (about 30 frames) that still gives the opponent a great abundance of excess time to steady their aim, choose from multiple punishment options, or to charge-up attacks to deal extra damage. This is what we call 'High-Risk'. XD

Now compare the reward of Inhale as a mix-up for a B-air. The reward will be 10% or less (depending on if you Copy or Star Shot) which is less than a fresh, sweet-spotted B-air (12%) and about on par with a fresh, sour-spotted B-air (9%).

It should be noted that an additional 'reward' of gaining a Hat can be added to the damage dealt when choosing to Copy. In most cases, any Hat Kirby can gain isn't great but in specific cases it can be very useful (i.e. Falco, Lucario, Olimar, ROB, Snake), but unfortunately the Hat can be knocked off with the lightest of attacks at any given time making it a pretty fragile reward. Some characters can also punish Kirby out of a Copy (Lucario, ROB, Meta Knight, etc) which can also knock the Hat off. :\

In contrast to the possible 'reward' of the other options outlined above, you can start to see why Inhale is not used very often (i.e. U-air can combo at low percents and Final Cutter can punish retreating Rolls).

In the end I think it's best summed up as:
Feel free to use Inhale as a mix-up because when you do you'll better understand why it's not used very often.

*I know I said Kirby's Inhale is 19-frames before, but I think it's actually 18-frames. I guess I should go confirm that, especially in comparison to Dedede's.
 

Anragon

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Imo, Inhale should be used when Kirby is at low % because he can't be killed in that way(unless you get a Full Eruption from Ike... If that case happens, just stop Brawl lol), at least he get punished(less hard if spaced).

I have a question, what about Final Cutter then ? I think this move has some potential but, excluding recovery, in which cases can I use it ?
 

Sage JoWii

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I use FC on slants, or when I'm mid-stage and my opponent is going for the ledge. It's a really bad move.
 

Triple R

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As much as I do love inhale mix ups, there is usually a safer option. Timmy pretty much covered most things.

The only time I sometimes use it is when I do a rising bair and then fall with inhale. As sexy as it looks when it works, like Timmy said, it's just safer and smarter to just land and turn around grab or something. It's quicker and safer.

Never hurts to experiment though!
 

falln

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if dedede inhales you and spits you out you can final cutter that as a fun gimmick. if they already know then they can shield it and you wont really have achieved anything but its still good for a free hit against people who dont know.

final cutter also has uses when recovering against meta knight as a mix up similar to how marths will up b preemptively to hit you away you can use it like that. the hitbox is weird and not the same as your other attacks so if mks spaced to avoid something else and not your up b you can go for it and then land on the edge and be happy

inhale is one of the most fun moves in the game and the amount of edge play you can do with it is ridiculous. just cant be dumb about it though or you get *****
 

t!MmY

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Final Cutter in most cases that don't include recovery is usually a bad idea. If you're in a position where you can use it and not get punished if you miss (this is rare) then go ahead and use it. Such instances are usually when the opponent is recovering or when you predict a vertical change in their positioning and intercept it from a distance (such as when they jump up to land on a platform and you send a Final Cutter shot to catch them).

Final Cutter is best used when near an edge so that you can cancel it and not suffer the horrendous lag from landing on the ground. Always cancel on the ledge if the opponent is anywhere close to you (the exception is if you expect an Edgehog).

A little trick with Final Cutter that is specific to Meta Knight:
If you see him using a Short-Hopped F-air on your Shield, you can Jump-Cancel your Shield into a Final Cutter - Kirby's crouch when prepping the Final Cutter actually puts him low enough to duck under the remainder of the F-air and the upward swipe of the Final Cutter will catch Meta Knight on his way back down from the Short Hop. The timing is very precise, but it's a fun trick when you just know he's going to F-air.
 

-Cross-

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Thanks for all the feedback esp. Timmy. I'll definitely experiment with it. Also just an idea for being a bit safer when you copy. I'm thinking against Lucario (you already inhaled him), couldn't you jump and then copy at the peak of your jump? That way if he dair's, then you can easily SDI down and avoid taking multiple hits. Also if you jump and copy, do you have enough momentum that you could also drift to the sides and perhaps avoid characters that have FF dair's as their punish option?
 

falln

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Thanks for all the feedback esp. Timmy. I'll definitely experiment with it. Also just an idea for being a bit safer when you copy. I'm thinking against Lucario (you already inhaled him), couldn't you jump and then copy at the peak of your jump? That way if he dair's, then you can easily SDI down and avoid taking multiple hits. Also if you jump and copy, do you have enough momentum that you could also drift to the sides and perhaps avoid characters that have FF dair's as their punish option?
if you reallyyyyyy want the hat for whatever reason and you dont want to eat the dair then the best thing to do is to eat him by the edge and walk off it like you're going to kirbycide and then when you see your opponent trying to break out you use copy then.

kirby's actual inhale is better than his actual power in almost every matchup though (including lucario)
 

Anragon

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If you're inhaling Lucario and you want to copy him, prepare your fingers to SDI quickly and correctly(Left/Right). Works for me, I only get the 1rst hit of Dair and I punish with Bair for it.

But he can still take away the copy from me with that hit, but it rarely happens.
Remember, Lucario is ******** :troll:

Anyway, Final Cutter can be a OoS option ? At which frame hits it ?
 

t!MmY

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Yeah, you really have to be a jerk when playing against Ice Climbers. Run away and poke at them and try to frustrate them as much as possible (and try to frustrate the player as much as possible too). If the opponent gets frustrated he's much more likely to fail at his chaingrabs if he ever does catch you.

This is a video of me vs TooBusyToCare. I think I spaced things pretty well, got into his head, and it also shows you how dumb Pictochat can be.
 

aqua421

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I didn't realize you could cancel the animations of stone and hammer on the spring like that. Such a shame that stage isn't legal its a lot of fun.

:phone:
 

t!MmY

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Pictochat is a lot of fun for Kirby! :D
I'm not sure that should be the standard for which stage is legal or not. XD
 

Alacion

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What's the best way to mash out of Kirby's swallow?

I had a lead with Peach (I was at 0%, opponent was 120%). I got swallowed... I was desperately trying to mash out but for whatever reason I couldn't and then Kirby jumped off stage and Peach's recovery sucks too much to make it back to the ledge... I lost. (inb4whyareyouattheedge)

Can Kirby love jump when he absorbs Zelda's Nayru's Love?

Also... Zelda > Peach in the Kirby matchup :D
 

Sage JoWii

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Peach is better than Zelda in the Kirby MU. Zelda gets ***** because she has a weak point in front/ above her head that Kirby can hover in. Against Peach you don't have a weak point you can exploit, so you have to work getting the lead and keeping her out.
 

Alacion

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Lol I was just kidding I know Peach is much better than Zelda.

I just do better with Zelda because I'm a Zelda main and have only picked up Peach recently. The matchup chart is also very inaccurate in terms of Zelda.

The Zeldas and Ganons think Zelda/Ganon is even (and Ganondorf should be most characters' best matchup I think) and I think a fair portion of the Zeldas agree Kirby is -3 for Zelda.
 

falln

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the 08 matchup chart had zelda:kirby as zelda's favor. good times.

and for mashing its literally just mashing its not hard to get out of unless you were mashing like a ***** (which a lot of people do to avoid buffering their recovery move right out of release). but really just mash and then when you release react to and recover normally and you should be fine
 

Kantrip

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What's the best way to mash out of Kirby's swallow?

I had a lead with Peach (I was at 0%, opponent was 120%). I got swallowed... I was desperately trying to mash out but for whatever reason I couldn't and then Kirby jumped off stage and Peach's recovery sucks too much to make it back to the ledge... I lost. (inb4whyareyouattheedge)

Can Kirby love jump when he absorbs Zelda's Nayru's Love?

Also... Zelda > Peach in the Kirby matchup :D
teehee

:bee:
 

Alacion

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@falln Thank you for being helpful in this thread of helpfulness :)

Hey Kantrip don't make me bring out my Zelda on you >_>
 

Kappy

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You can use Uair or Bair. Uair has 1 frame less cool down frames, so you can use either. It might be a good idea to practice using Uair for vertical DI and Bair for horizontal DI since that would make actual DI'ing a little easier. LOL.
 

Wumbo105

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You got it backwards Kappy, if you're aiming for the diagonal corners of the screen, bair would be easiest for vertical DI and uair for surviving a horizontal launch.

:phone:
 

Kappy

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That's what I meant, but I must've worded it poorly.

I meant vertical DI as the DI you use when you're being sent horizontally and horizontal DI as the DI you use when you're being sent vertically. My bad for poor wording. LOL.
 
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