Kirby MetaGame discussion

[momochuu]

YEAH THAT'S PRODUCTIVE.


Anyway, I just had something funky happen on Brinstar. I don't know quite how to explain it (I'm not too sure what happened) and I don't have a replay, but it went something like this:

I ran (I think) left to right, and did a grounded Hammer right as I stepped onto that weird ... thingy on the bottom of the stage with the breakable cylindrical thingies. What happened next kind of looked like when you run offstage, but hammer right before you fall offstage, so you pull out your hammer and make the sound, but you never swing it because it cancels. But what happened next was like I did an extended hammer attack. I moved quite a bit and hammered...I don't know how to explain it >_<

It was pretty cool though, I'll try to repeat it tomorrow. You guys should help meh >_>

Brinstar has some funky funky stuff though. Like I noticed that some attacks are super laggy if you hit those strings that attach the platforms to the stage. For example, Sonic did his Upsmash on the left string, and I normally wouldn't have been able to punish it in time, but the multi-hit attack lasted FOREVER while attacking the string so I got a hit in on him.

Spoiler

hay u guyz diddy kong is broken

Okaayyyy, I'll be productive. Well, those thingies on Brinstar make hitboxes last longer. Much longer. A lot of Snake mainers know this and use FSmash on the part that splits the stage in two parts. It makes FSmash's hitbox last much longer than someone would expect, resulting in a kill...I should know...it cost me a tourney match. <__<;

Any character can do it, but some just have better attacks. I don't think Kirby has many long lasting attacks, so whether we can use Brinstar's strangness is unknown yet. =)

 

[Asdioh]

Okay, so I just did some testing on Brinstar, and if this isn't already listed as "one of kirby's best stages", then I think maybe it should be. Here are some reasons it's so good for him:

-Close sides for early KOs from fsmash, dsmash, hammer, aerial hammer, wall of pain, some copied powers.
-Short ceiling for early KOs from upsmash, dsmash, aerial hammer, hammer, upthrow, upair at high %
-Spiking people into the acid
-I figured out what happened on the breakable cylinders that can separate the stage. If you run onto them, and do a grounded hammer, you will actually slide a noticable distance, and your hammer reaches much farther than it normally would. TRY IT!
-Increased hitbox duration for Stone and downward-angled hammer on those breakable cylinders.
-Jab the string pillars to refresh moves.
-Leftward-facing Final Cutter on the right platform (attached) follows the platforms angle downwards and can hit people on the middle part of the stage.
-Stone Shockwave Glitch on the right platform (when string is broken). Beware of falling off when the string reattaches, or when the stage comes back together.
-Turning into a Stone when the acid is high for safety. Your opponent can't follow you there. You will eventually take over 30% damage from the acid in Stone form, and it will knock you up, but you won't take any damage due to the Stone's mechanics. Beware of doing this at high percentages.
-Attacking through the bottom of the stage is great for Kirby. Beware of characters with spikes.
-The small stage discourages camping. Campy characters are screwed even more when the acid rises to full height, and you are both pretty much forced to the top platform.
-Kirby evades the acid easier than most with his multiple jumps.

Things to watch out for:
-Falling through the acid as a Stone to your doom.
-Close sides and top can be advantageous for your opponent, as well as you.
-Some attacks can last incredibly long on the strings that attach the platforms. Take advantage of people that do this by accident, but watch out for people who try to trick you with it. (Snake's Fsmash, like Bunny said)

That reminds me, I heard that this is a BAD stage to fight Snake on? I think it could go either way, though admittedly uptilt and possibly ftilt could absolutely destroy you. At the same time though, you could destroy Snake with early kills off the side. Fsmash, or hammer when he's recovering.

 

[fromundaman]

I ran (I think) left to right, and did a grounded Hammer right as I stepped onto that weird ... thingy on the bottom of the stage with the breakable cylindrical thingies. What happened next kind of looked like when you run offstage, but hammer right before you fall offstage, so you pull out your hammer and make the sound, but you never swing it because it cancels. But what happened next was like I did an extended hammer attack. I moved quite a bit and hammered...I don't know how to explain it >_<

That can happen on any stage. It works kind of like Mario's running cape glitch. If you run towards a ledge and do a side-B right as you run off, it acts differently. For some people, like Mario and DK, it allows them to keep sliding offstage while doing their side-B. Unfortunately, that's not the case for us. For Kirby, his hammer just barely appears and makes the sound but doesn't swing. Can be pretty good for mindgames I guess, especially if the opponent doesn't know about it, since he'll assume you're just swinging at the edge when he sees/hears the hammer, but since it cancels and puts you right over the edge, you can go straight into an aerial instead.


Also, another interesting thing about Brinistar: If you D-throw on thos cylinder thingies that seperate the stage, you'll destroy one per kick, breaking the stage in half before it finishes, which then forces a strange grab release in the middle of the throw (It's like a ground release even though you're both in the air). So basically, be careful where you're D-throwing, because while that can be good if you catch your opponent off-guard, if your opponent knows about it, they can attack you before you can get them (at least computers seem to be able to attack out of that before me, so I assume it let's your opponent react a little before you do, though it could just be me sucking.).


Part of the reason Brinistar is listed as a good Snake stage is because the slopes allow him to sit on one of the side platforms and just shield drop grenades and watch them roll to the middle of the stage, peppering anyone coming from there (though you can too if you take his grenaeds). On top of that, his U-tilt destroys aerial approaches, and his F-tilt and jab combo can reach pretty much across all 3 of the platforms. Also, I could be wrong, but I believe the lava does NOT detonate his C4, so it can be easy to lose track of here. Essentially though, he could just camp on the side platform and grenade you all day, forcing you to approach him, which, due to the small size of the platforms + his tilts, can be very bad. Even if you come from below, a well timed grenade drop will stop your assault and knock you right into U-tilt or mortar range.

 

[Xpwnage123]

YEAH THAT'S PRODUCTIVE.


Anyway, I just had something funky happen on Brinstar. I don't know quite how to explain it (I'm not too sure what happened) and I don't have a replay, but it went something like this:

I ran (I think) left to right, and did a grounded Hammer right as I stepped onto that weird ... thingy on the bottom of the stage with the breakable cylindrical thingies. What happened next kind of looked like when you run offstage, but hammer right before you fall offstage, so you pull out your hammer and make the sound, but you never swing it because it cancels. But what happened next was like I did an extended hammer attack. I moved quite a bit and hammered...I don't know how to explain it >_<

It was pretty cool though, I'll try to repeat it tomorrow. You guys should help meh >_>

Brinstar has some funky funky stuff though. Like I noticed that some attacks are super laggy if you hit those strings that attach the platforms to the stage. For example, Sonic did his Upsmash on the left string, and I normally wouldn't have been able to punish it in time, but the multi-hit attack lasted FOREVER while attacking the string so I got a hit in on him.

Spoiler

hay u guyz diddy kong is broken

Yeah I actually figured this out myself. It works out well as an edge grab, if you do it well. It takes some lag off from regular hogging. This also works for ness.

 

[Asdioh]

That can happen on any stage. It works kind of like Mario's running cape glitch. If you run towards a ledge and do a side-B right as you run off, it acts differently. For some people, like Mario and DK, it allows them to keep sliding offstage while doing their side-B. Unfortunately, that's not the case for us. For Kirby, his hammer just barely appears and makes the sound but doesn't swing. Can be pretty good for mindgames I guess, especially if the opponent doesn't know about it, since he'll assume you're just swinging at the edge when he sees/hears the hammer, but since it cancels and puts you right over the edge, you can go straight into an aerial instead.

Yeah I actually figured this out myself. It works out well as an edge grab, if you do it well. It takes some lag off from regular hogging. This also works for ness.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I mean...I'll make a video when I can. It's not a huge deal, but once you see it, you might agree that it'll be good for catching an opponent off-guard.

That stage is weird though...sometimes when the breakable cylinder thingies respawn, the left and right sides are like walls, and you can roll out, and sometimes you can't walk out :O

I wonder why that stage is legal, haha.

 

[fromundaman]

I wonder why that stage is legal, haha.

Don't say things like that! People will start to wonder, and then I won't be able to bring ROB there anymore...

Also, I found that if you jump and hit the hammer almost at the same time you leave the ground, you can do an aerial hammer on the ground that cancels as soon as Kirby makes that little yell. However, if you do it *too* fast (which is honestly kind of hard to do), you can get it to cancel before he yells, meaning no damage. The cool thing is the swing animation doesn't even get time to reach all the way in front of you, but the hitbox does.

Also, I think this is known (It is on the Link boards anyway), but you can do F-smashes while holding grenades and bananas by holding A when you pick it up (or as you roll), hitting the C-stick, then letting go of A.

 

[Asdioh]

Don't say things like that! People will start to wonder, and then I won't be able to bring ROB there anymore...

Also, I found that if you jump and hit the hammer almost at the same time you leave the ground, you can do an aerial hammer on the ground that cancels as soon as Kirby makes that little yell. However, if you do it *too* fast (which is honestly kind of hard to do), you can get it to cancel before he yells, meaning no damage. The cool thing is the swing animation doesn't even get time to reach all the way in front of you, but the hitbox does.

Also, I think this is known (It is on the Link boards anyway), but you can do F-smashes while holding grenades and bananas by holding A when you pick it up (or as you roll), hitting the C-stick, then letting go of A.

lol, I do that aerial hammer cancel on the sandbag all the time. And as a taunt. Jump, immediately hammer, you pull the hammer out and then land flat on your face. I want to make a "Kirby AT Video" sometime, filled with useless stuff like that, and "crouchwalking" (which I like to call: "The Half-Squish")

You let go of A? I know how to do smashes while holding items, but it always fully charges. So you can let go of A to smash without charging? :O

I just played a DK that usually owns me, and his CP and mine were both Brinstar. So he beat me on FD (close game, I got owned second stock by untechable cargo spike, <3 wifi) and then I beat him on Brinstar twice.

 

[fromundaman]

You let go of A? I know how to do smashes while holding items, but it always fully charges. So you can let go of A to smash without charging? :O

yup, the smash goes off as soon as you let go of A.

 

[Dexlysic]

Inhale release?

If you stand still on the ground after inhaling your opponent, they usually break out pretty far away from you.
However, if they break out while you're walking, a lot of characters break out right in front of you.
Fsmash and Ftilt are easily shieldable, but jabs might be possible.
Most of the time, I can get a free grab out of it.
I'm not sure if it's escapable or if they can grab or jab you if they're faster and expecting it.

I like to inhale, then start walking toward the edge so they expect a Kirbycide while holding Z, then mash A to shieldgrab as soon as it's possible.
If anything, it's unexpected, and it's like having DK's cargo throw to position them before throwing them.

I just figured I'd put this up to let you guys mess around with it if it's not known/debunked already.

 

[CaliburChamp]

If you stand still on the ground after inhaling your opponent, they usually break out pretty far away from you.
However, if they break out while you're walking, a lot of characters break out right in front of you.
Fsmash and Ftilt are easily shieldable, but jabs might be possible.
Most of the time, I can get a free grab out of it.
I'm not sure if it's escapable or if they can grab or jab you if they're faster and expecting it.

I like to inhale, then start walking toward the edge so they expect a Kirbycide while holding Z, then mash A to shieldgrab as soon as it's possible.
If anything, it's unexpected, and it's like having DK's cargo throw to position them before throwing them.

I just figured I'd put this up to let you guys mess around with it if it's not known/debunked already.

I'm going to give that a try.

People should also look into using the final cutter blade as a ranged aerial attack.

 

[shock505]

Fair can be used as a defensive option also, if you SH Fair then move back.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm going to give that a try.

People should also look into using the final cutter blade as a ranged aerial attack.

If you mean as a high-priority attack while in the air, I try to do it a lot. It works wonders against characters with retardedly huge disjointed hitboxes (Game and Watch)

(shameless promotion for Kirby '08 for Allisbrawl president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoZZVzGGAgk )

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, I use FC a lot: to outprioritize people in the air, to bait people into approaching, to use as a projectile, and to clear the edge. Actually, I probably use this too much.

Also, fun fact: If you use FC from the edge, hit them on the way down, then sweetspot the ledge, you force them down, and while you don't have time for a jab/Dtilt lock, I think you have time to do an aerial hammer from a ledge hop on them if you jump as soon as you grab the ledge (You can against CPUs anyway, haven't tried it on a human yet, so not sure if they can react before you hit them).

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah, I use FC a lot: to outprioritize people in the air, to bait people into approaching, to use as a projectile, and to clear the edge. Actually, I probably use this too much.

Also, fun fact: If you use FC from the edge, hit them on the way down, then sweetspot the ledge, you force them down, and while you don't have time for a jab/Dtilt lock, I think you have time to do an aerial hammer from a ledge hop on them if you jump as soon as you grab the ledge (You can against CPUs anyway, haven't tried it on a human yet, so not sure if they can react before you hit them).

What I've done (rarely) is hit them on the way down like you said, and then do the ledge "get-up" attack, when you're under 100% so you do the faster version.

I have 2 clips of it in 2 of my "combo videos", and what happens is
1. Final cutter knocks them onto the ground
2. the ledge attack sends them behind me, offstage
3. I follow up with Dair for the spike.

I don't think it's a true combo, but it worked in those situations, and very well.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... I'll have to try that then.

Also, what the hell is with the Utilt? That move is so messed up. How can a kick behind me stop a golf club to my face? I don't know, but it does!
That thing seems to clash with everything! (I'm not complaining, but wow, it's priority is insanity, and it seems as though it's hitbox is bigger when clashing with something, though that could just be me.)

 

[Asdioh]

...sometimes my jab attack clashes with people fsmashing behind me.

*shrug*

 

[fromundaman]

...sometimes my jab attack clashes with people fsmashing behind me.

*shrug*

I know the jab hitbox extends a short way behind him, but I figured it had less priority than the punch itself. Jab clashing with Fsmashes though? Jeez, Kirby got priorityz!

 

[A1lion835]

With the Final Cutter, I like it when I accidentally spike them and I'm like "I meant to do that." Very fun. I sometimes also use the dair.

 

[fromundaman]

With the Final Cutter, I like it when I accidentally spike them and I'm like "I meant to do that." Very fun. I sometimes also use the dair.

Hehe... I, on the other hand, attempt to Cutter spike, miss, and fall to my doom. I prefer your way

 

[A1lion835]

That's why I don't attempt it. It just happens when I'm recovering, they're about to edgehog me, and... yeah. You get the idea.

 

[fromundaman]

Oh hehe, I meant when you're trying to recover, realize you just aren't going to make it since you're running out of jumps and that big mean monkey is coming at you with arms raised, and you decide screw it, if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me! (Then you realize the world doesn't work that way, and that Sakurai likes monkeys.)

 

[A1lion835]

...And then he tries to spike you, you airdodge, and Kirbycide.

Okay, that wouldn't really happen, but a cool thought.

 

[PiKaos]

I don't know if this has been mentioned here yet, but does anyone else here use Kirby's crouch to avoid certain attacks and grabs? It's useful to be able to crouch under Falco and Fox's lasers, as well as the occasional undirected R.O.B laser. Also, some grabs and shieldgrabs can be avoided with it (Ganondorf's for example, although for some reason he can still get you wih his dashgrab :S), which can then lead into a grab combo starter or a downtilt trip > finisher at higher %. There's probably a thread detailing what attacks and grabs Kirby can avoid with his crouch somewhere, but i'm too lazy to find it =P

EDIT: Just noticed, as another tip aganst Falco, you can crouch under his Reflector kick and take advantage of the ending lag with a DTilt or Stone shockwave =D

 

[A1lion835]

I don't know if this has been mentioned here yet, but does anyone else here use Kirby's crouch to avoid certain attacks and grabs? It's useful to be able to crouch under Falco and Fox's lasers, as well as the occasional undirected R.O.B laser. Also, some grabs and shieldgrabs can be avoided with it (Ganondorf's for example, although for some reason he can still get you wih his dashgrab :S), which can then lead into a grab combo starter or a downtilt trip > finisher at higher %. There's probably a thread detailing what attacks and grabs Kirby can avoid with his crouch somewhere, but i'm too lazy to find it =P

EDIT: Just noticed, as another tip aganst Falco, you can crouch under his Reflector kick and take advantage of the ending lag with a DTilt or Stone shockwave =D

Yeah, I think there's a thread, "crouch avoid list" or something. I crouch under a few things (like blasters), but I don't use it too much. I also notice that when Ike uses Quick Draw on a crouching Kirby, he does the slash but misses.

 

[fromundaman]

Thanks A1 and Pika. I didn't know you could crouch under the reflector or QD.

Also, ganon's grab sucks... don't question it's few, well, I can't call them redeeming, "decent" factors!

You can also crouch under Ganon's Wizkick. Not sure, but you might be able to dodge his FC this way too.

On a side note: Dair>Footstool is just way too good.

 

[A1lion835]

On a side note: Dair>Footstool is just way too good.

I know. That's how the majority of my mass pwnage wins (which there aren't many of) go. I have 80% and 1 life, they have thirty, and then that happens.

 

[Asdioh]

"Doop Walking" http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207154
Kirby's is at the very end of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sacIYsrRvq0

What do you guys think? I tried it, and I suck at this stuff, but it might be a little useful.

It's amazing for Marth and Link and a few others.

Note: hold down A (so that you're not jabbing, do a nair or something and hold it) and then tap the c-stick up and forward at a 45 degree angle. Kirby looks too cool when you spam this. Also, this is easier to do if you set R or L (whichever you don't use for shielding) to "Attack"

 

[fromundaman]

Hehe, a lot of characters look funny when they do this.

I haven't tried it yet, but from what people are saying, ours is pretty bad other than for dodging Falco lasers.

 

[A1lion835]

Hm. The concept sounds cool, but I don't think it would serve many uses (aside from dodging lazers and mindgames, which were mentioned). At least not for Kirby.

 

[Asdioh]

How the crap does this dodge lasers? O_o

If you're talking about the crouch thing, Kirby can do that with the control stick alone..?

 

[A1lion835]

How the crap does this dodge lasers? O_o

Do not underestimate the power of the spinny thingy!

Ok seriously, I just briefly glanced over the post and it said something about helping Kirby. Cut me some slack!

I like the quote (from SamuraiPanda):

"Oh god. Do you know how stupid the metagame will look if this is useful? We'll be spinning around like a bunch of ******* all day.

I love it."

Edit: Yay! 99 posts!

 

[fromundaman]

Actually, I haven't posted it in the original thread for this, but this is useful for every character out of a Dash pivot cancel (Yes, I know I'm kind of obsessed with those) as it makes you slide much farther.

 

[A1lion835]

When I try to doop walk, I do it and then charge an f-smash...

 

[Asdioh]

When I try to doop walk, I do it and then charge an f-smash...

It means you're doing it wrong. You're probably pressing the C-stick too horizontally, it has to be upwards and opposite the way you're walking in a 45 degree angle.

I barely ever do an accidental smash, I have more of a tendency to dash for some reason when I do it.

 

[fromundaman]

Heh, I smashed a lot at first, but I got it down fairly fast. Now the only problem is I have an unnatural instinct to Dtilt after I do it.

 

[A1lion835]

Heh, I smashed a lot at first, but I got it down fairly fast. Now the only problem is I have an unnatural instinct to Dtilt after I do it.

Funny. I get the unnatural instinct to dtilt when oli is throwing pikman at me.

 

[KirbyBeatBox]

Does the doop walk actually have a purpose for kirby, or does it just look cool? I can't tell.

 

[fromundaman]

As I said like 6 posts earlier, it might be useful out of a Dash Pivot Cancel.

 

[CaliburChamp]

How about footstools to stone attack? I think that would be good to incorporate.

 

[fromundaman]

I've never managed those grounded footstool combos myself, but do you have time to transform before the foe gets up? Can't they hit you out of it with a get-up attack? I know Grounded Footstool>aerial hammer works though.

The problem with those is they're kind of risky to use, and the best time to use them seems to be OoS, but I dunno, it seems you always have better, safer options. Meh, if you can get it down well though, it could be an interesting option, and potentially good for OoS KOs.