Kirby General Discussion

[Massive]

if you space so he misses the nair, he can just overshoot it.
If you powershield, he's fox and shine is frame 1.
SDI, he can just reposition himself so that you can't really punish him.
you can hit him out of nair, but he can always bait crap then nair->shine.

either way, fox never has to approach. He's probably the strongest character both defensively and offensively. Nobody should be able to approach if he plays correctly.

What is this, Schrodinger's fox?
Fox cannot commit to 2 approaches at once, if he could he would win every tournament.

It is not possible to play a "perfect" fox for man or machine. Even theoretically perfect play does not mean you don't have to make decisions that make you vulnerable.

Fox has an advantage over a lot of other characters, but even played perfectly, and somehow knowing all the opponents moves in advance wouldn't make him invincible. There are still times even when the best foxes in the world mess up or leave themselves open to retaliation.

I mean, How many high profile tournaments do you see fox win big tournaments? NOT MANY.
He is ranked highly on the tier list because he does well against everyone and will place reasonably well in bracket, but he's not usually the one winning it all.

Stop theorycrafting and actually play the game. You're doing yourself no services by trying to justify losing to fox as inevitable.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Losing to Kirby is inevitable. That downB, man. Get's me every time. Now that's a flawless approach. I mean, he deals damage AND you can't hurt him? That sounds just as broken as Aesir's Fox.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Oh man and those different forms are so good. The spiked ball being a spike is legit but I like the 100 ton dumbell because it does more damage.

 

[DerfMidWest]

yo the rock was mad broken in the kirby games.
I beat all the bosses with it.

 

[bubbaking]

Anybody can punish anybody for trying to approach them if they don't make mistakes.

There aren't any 100% safe approaches in Melee.

Clearly you aren't familiary with theorycraft-perfect Fox, one of the only chars that can play perfectly defensively and offensively.

Power-shield.
SDI.
Hit him out of Nair.
Space so he misses the Nair.

You sound like PSing is easy and can be done at a moment's notice on reaction. SDI? I'm guessing SDI=Smash Directional Influence, but how does Smash DI help with nair>shine?

Thats not a perfect approach.

Are you unable to distinguish what is humanly possible from what isn't?

Well, I believe listing PS as regular option to dealing with Fox's nair whenever he uses it is kind of.......not "humanly possible."

I mean, How many high profile tournaments do you see fox win big tournaments? NOT MANY.
He is ranked highly on the tier list because he does well against everyone and will place reasonably well in bracket, but he's not usually the one winning it all.

That's the player screwing up in his usage of the char. Fox is probably one of the chars that requires the most technical skill to play at top level and that's the easiest thing to mess up. It's even harder to properly think out MUs while doing it. Fox does not win tournaments because, luckily, humans are not perfect and eventually crack under pressure and everyone learns how to play Spacies more than any other MU in the game.

Oh man and those different forms are so good. The spiked ball being a spike is legit but I like the 100 ton dumbell because it does more damage.

Wait....the different forms have different stats? I never knew this.....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He said that Fox had a perfect approach, so I listed the ways that it wasn't perfect. Whether they were humanly possible or not was irrelevant for that point.

This all started with Aesir saying "Only spacies can approach fox." It doesn't matter if this is true in perfect play cause we don't play perfectly, the statement was wrong.

Aesir later said that Fox counters Falcon 80:20...
In "perfect" play... >_>
So it doesn't matter...

Hence "Are you unable to distinguish what is humanly possible from what isn't?"

Got it?

 

[Beat!]

I don't know if I should laugh or cry after reading this discussion.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, I got it alright. I just think Aesir did have some basis in what he said, at least in regards to Kirby. I honestly don't think Kirby can reasonably approach a hardcore-camping Fox on any stage other than Final D. It's waaaay too easy for Fox to run/jump around him and platforms make it even easier. Even if the Kirby player was "better", Fox could win due to a sheer battle of attrition. Kirby runs too slow and his aerial speed is even worse.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thats just Kirby being awful, as per usual.

Fox is approachable.

 

[Massive]

Oh, I got it alright. I just think Aesir did have some basis in what he said, at least in regards to Kirby. I honestly don't think Kirby can reasonably approach a hardcore-camping Fox on any stage other than Final D. It's waaaay too easy for Fox to run/jump around him and platforms make it even easier. Even if the Kirby player was "better", Fox could win due to a sheer battle of attrition. Kirby runs too slow and his aerial speed is even worse.

Final destination is probably the worst Kirby stage. Actually it's very bad for almost every low tier.

Kirby has a "ok" chance vs fox on Battlefield and Yoshi's, and it's mostly because they're small, have platforms, and stupid crap can kill there. Fox on FD (and DL64) is (are) super rough for reasons you already stated, the stage is too big and kirby is slow.

Well, I believe listing PS as regular option to dealing with Fox's nair whenever he uses it is kind of.......not "humanly possible."

LOL.
Power-shielding normal attacks isn't that hard... the timing is not super lenient but it's not that difficult, it's far easier than reflecting projectiles. I run smashfests every week, and it's common to see most people powershield physical attacks 4 or 5 times per match.

It's a pretty easy skill to pick up, honestly. You just delay putting out your shield until the very last second. It's the only reason characters like G&W are even playable at a higher level, if they didn't powershield attacks they would have serious trouble winning due to shield pokes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

G&W still isn't very playable at high levels .

And I was under the impression that power-shielding changed in difficulty depending on your shield size, so wouldn't it be near impossible for G&W anyway?

 

[Massive]

G&W still isn't very playable at high levels .

And I was under the impression that power-shielding changed in difficulty depending on your shield size, so wouldn't it be near impossible for G&W anyway?

I've powershielded lasers with my head and a tiny non-covering peanut shield before. I'm pretty sure the powershield itself is the white flash that comes off you when you put up the full strength shield.

G&W is still bad though, even if he has fancy crap he can do against space animals.
Kirby's shield is actually pretty good. Since he's so light, kirby doesn't even need to powershield, he can get out of a lot of approaches by light shielding and letting them push him out of punish range, lol. Works on jiggs and zelda as well. TRICKY BUSINESS THESE SHIELDS.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its good with Mewtwo as well because of his traction.

At least, in my experience.

 

[bubbaking]

Final destination is probably the worst Kirby stage. Actually it's very bad for almost every low tier.

Kirby has a "ok" chance vs fox on Battlefield and Yoshi's, and it's mostly because they're small, have platforms, and stupid crap can kill there. Fox on FD (and DL64) is (are) super rough for reasons you already stated, the stage is too big and kirby is slow.

I see what you mean, but can't Kirby try to corner Spacies against the edge of the stage on FD (even though aggro and Kirby don't really go together too well)? As for Yoshi's, I just dislike how early Kirby dies there, even though recovery is often less of an issue...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Watch Ice's Fox vs. Hack's Kirby on FD.

 

[Massive]

I see what you mean, but can't Kirby try to corner Spacies against the edge of the stage on FD (even though aggro and Kirby don't really go together too well)? As for Yoshi's, I just dislike how early Kirby dies there, even though recovery is often less of an issue...

Kirby can't easily corner spacies on FD since fox has better speed and can outmaneuver him, and falco can just jump over him.

Your advantage on stages like yoshis is that the stage is so small, your lack of speed doesn't hinder your ability to manever. Your hitboxes surmise a larger portion of the playable area and can cover more options than on a huge stage like dreamland or FD. You also get platforms to camp/punish on. Since Kirby will die at low % pretty much everywhere, the biggest feather in your cap is that you're maximizing locations where Kirby's few KO moves (uair, bair) are actually effective.

 

[Pink Reaper]

A good fox wont corner himself against Kirby on FD or even attempt to outmaneuver him. Fox controls space significantly better than kirby does so maintaining mid stage puts him at an extreme advantage. Even if he takes a hit or gets grabbed, there's he can always reset to neutral and then regain the advantage.

Honestly Kirby's best stage is FoD. Platform height absolutely destroys a lot of players and Kirby's jump heights work well with them. The small stage but rather large death box is useful as Kirby doesnt kill from solid hits but from edge guarding and gimping. Your only real loss is swallowcide canceling(clearly you CP bowser to FoD)

 

[Bing]

WOW this discussion was Brutal. Fox is defs approachable. No certain characters cannot approach(The ones that shouldnt).
Aesir,quit being stubborn and dumb. I know you main Pichu, but just because he's bottom tier, it doesnt mean you have to be.

Bubbaking, the more I read your stuff, the more I think.. hmm...what is this guy thinking?

I used to ignore most of your posts because you had a very low post count + large walls of text that I wouldnt read because I have never heard of you. Then I tried reading it and I disagree with a lot of what you say..



Kirby vs Fox is a ****ty MU. Lots of Chaingrabs and gimps. You'll never corner a decent fox... hell even a ****ty fox knows that if he's cornered he can illusion out and carry on with his day.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubbaking, the more I read your stuff, the more I think.. hmm...what is this guy thinking?

I used to ignore most of your posts because you had a very low post count + large walls of text that I wouldnt read because I have never heard of you. Then I tried reading it and I disagree with a lot of what you say..

Hey, what can I say? I'm a pretty controversial fellow. Ignoring/disagreeing is fine, lolz! I'm still learning about this game, so it's best that as many people disagree with me as possible so I can see exactly where I am wrong. As for low post counts, don't worry about that, I'm pretty sure you're newer around these boards than I am.

Kirby vs Fox is a ****ty MU. Lots of Chaingrabs and gimps. You'll never corner a decent fox... hell even a ****ty fox knows that if he's cornered he can illusion out and carry on with his day.

Chaingrabs? (O_o) Now I'm wondering what you're thinking...

 

[Wake]

Oh my deary goodness. Did someone actually say that FD wasn't as bad for Kirby? As Massive said, it's pretty much the worst stage for him against Fox.

 

[Triple R]

Yeah, from my experience, Fox and FD is pretty much the worst thing that can ever happen to Kirby ever. It's an instant ban from me when playing against a Fox in almost every set.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

as fox I like pokemon vs kirby more than I like FD. I also don't get why you CP foxes to dreamland randall, thats about equal to FD imo.

 

[Nashun]

I'll play FD vs. Fox all DAY.

FoD is pretty good though.

 

[Massive]

Platforms move Kirby up 2 tiers, this is part of why FD is so bad.
There is almost no way to KO a fox without a platform to camp/uair through.

Without platforms, Kirby is still tied with Pichu for worst character in the game.

 

[Nashun]

I can spew information too. Platforms give Fox more options when recovering. There's almost no way to KO a Fox without edgeguarding him. Camping under a platform won't do anything because Fox has lasers. The very fact that you're even mentioning camping a Fox says a lot because Kirby can't really camp anybody except for like, Falcon. And that's only sometimes. Fox does everything Kirby can with platforms.

Then again I don't really care about stages even when I play in tournament.

 

[Massive]

I can spew information too. Platforms give Fox more options when recovering. There's almost no way to KO a Fox without edgeguarding him. Camping under a platform won't do anything because Fox has lasers. The very fact that you're even mentioning camping a Fox says a lot because Kirby can't really camp anybody except for like, Falcon. And that's only sometimes. Fox does everything Kirby can with platforms.

Then again I don't really care about stages even when I play in tournament.

Fox's recovery options increase slightly with platforms, but your vertical mobility does as well; you can single hop from a platform and cover any height recovery on Battlefield, for example. You can ledgecamp him. You can't straight up camp anyone with kirby (except falco when you have his lasers), but you definitely have more options with platforms than without.

Keep in mind that one of kirby's best (and only) actual KO moves is uair, which is only effective when an opponent's hurtbox occupies the area directly above you. Utilt combos very well to uair at lower %s, but it is no longer effective on spacies at %s where it will kill. They can jump out of it before you can ploop up there at that point. You can, however, punish any type of platform tech with an uair.

That being said, I'd prefer any random utilts I may land to possibly lead to an uair and a KO instead of the very likely NOTHING or a reversal you'd encounter on FD.

 

[Nashun]

good points!

 

[Pink Reaper]

I CP Fox to Brinstar all DAY

 

[bubbaking]

So what I'm getting is that, depending on the player, FD can work for Kirby against Fox...

Edit: And Brinstar's banned now, isn't it?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Edit: And Brinstar's banned now, isn't it?

Not for kirby its not

 

[bubbaking]

Really now?

 

[Massive]

So what I'm getting is that, depending on the player, FD can work for Kirby against Fox...

Where'd you get that? You can beat fox on FD with any character, but it is arguably Kirby's worst matchup on his worst stage. Generally speaking you want to maximize what few strengths you have when you're on the losing end of a 9-1 (maybe even 10-0) matchup.

 

[bubbaking]

Where'd you get that?

Kirby can't easily corner spacies on FD since fox has better speed and can outmaneuver him, and falco can just jump over him.

Your advantage on stages like yoshis is that the stage is so small, your lack of speed doesn't hinder your ability to manever. Your hitboxes surmise a larger portion of the playable area and can cover more options than on a huge stage like dreamland or FD. You also get platforms to camp/punish on. Since Kirby will die at low % pretty much everywhere, the biggest feather in your cap is that you're maximizing locations where Kirby's few KO moves (uair, bair) are actually effective.

A good fox wont corner himself against Kirby on FD or even attempt to outmaneuver him. Fox controls space significantly better than kirby does so maintaining mid stage puts him at an extreme advantage. Even if he takes a hit or gets grabbed, there's he can always reset to neutral and then regain the advantage.

Honestly Kirby's best stage is FoD. Platform height absolutely destroys a lot of players and Kirby's jump heights work well with them. The small stage but rather large death box is useful as Kirby doesnt kill from solid hits but from edge guarding and gimping. Your only real loss is swallowcide canceling(clearly you CP bowser to FoD)

Oh my deary goodness. Did someone actually say that FD wasn't as bad for Kirby? As Massive said, it's pretty much the worst stage for him against Fox.

Yeah, from my experience, Fox and FD is pretty much the worst thing that can ever happen to Kirby ever. It's an instant ban from me when playing against a Fox in almost every set.

as fox I like pokemon vs kirby more than I like FD. I also don't get why you CP foxes to dreamland randall, thats about equal to FD imo.

I'll play FD vs. Fox all DAY.

FoD is pretty good though.

Platforms move Kirby up 2 tiers, this is part of why FD is so bad.
There is almost no way to KO a fox without a platform to camp/uair through.

Without platforms, Kirby is still tied with Pichu for worst character in the game.

I can spew information too. Platforms give Fox more options when recovering. There's almost no way to KO a Fox without edgeguarding him. Camping under a platform won't do anything because Fox has lasers. The very fact that you're even mentioning camping a Fox says a lot because Kirby can't really camp anybody except for like, Falcon. And that's only sometimes. Fox does everything Kirby can with platforms.

I'm hearing mixed opinions here. Some of them say that FD is really bad, but one Fox says he likes Poke Stadium more against Kirby, and one Kirby says that he likes to CP Fox to FD. I know personally, I don't mind FD.

Edit: All things aside, I think I put up quite a nice summary of this present discussion so far.

 

[Wake]

I think they all agreed that FD was really bad, though... -____-

They just weren't sure if it was the absolute worst. I doubt anyone would argue that FD is "good" for Kirby.

 

[Pink Reaper]

A player opinion doesnt really change anything. It's generally known that Poke Stad is the best stage overall for spacies and most spacies players will always go there no matter what the match up due to more than likely just being more comfortable there.

Also Nashun is just like, crazy so there's that.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, consensus on FD being a super bad stage.

 

[Nashun]

I said that I would PLAY fox on FD all day! I never said I would counterpick him there!

I also said that I don't really care what stage to play on, even in tournament. I pretty much never play non-neutrals unless someone takes me there and a lot of the time I'll just go Dreamland or FD when I have to pick a stage no matter what character they pick just because I like them.

Edit: If you really want my opinion on stages I think FoD, that one stupid DK stage, and Dreamland are Kirby's best stages in general, in that order. The only one I like to play on is Dreamland though.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I only play on Yoshi Story with Kirby. And only against Marth.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Kirby vs Fox is a ****ty MU. Lots of Chaingrabs and gimps.

Fox can't chaingrab kirby, but he can dthrow techchase really well.

 

[bubbaking]

Fox can't CG any non-fastfaller.