Kirby General Discussion

[Grim Tuesday]

Kirby dittos on Jungle Japes guiz

and DK dittos are amazing.

 

[bubbaking]

DK dittos are alright... Roy dittos are awkward..

Roy dittos start out as who can get the most grabs and tech-chases, upgrade to who can perform the coolest sideB setups, then soon degrade to whoever can get the most random fsmashes and neutral-B's.

Kirby dittos on Jungle Japes guiz

Not gonna lie, Kirby dittos on FoD are awesome!

 

[DerfMidWest]

DK dittos are pretty boss.
Kirby FFAs are amazing on yoshi's or rainbow cruise.
actually, everything is amazing on rainbow cruise.

 

[ryuu seika]

Hack ♫Slider onto any stage and it's amazing .

 

[bubbaking]

actually, everything is amazing on rainbow cruise.

Everything is amazing on Poke Floats.

 

[DerfMidWest]

its true.
but then you play against laser camping fox....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mushroom Kingdom II is my favourite stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Mushroom Kingdom II is my favourite stage.

its true.
but then you play against laser camping fox....

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Big blue is an awesome stage. I've got a video I'm planning to upload from a recent NC tournament where I went Kirby on big blue.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Fox is laser camping you on MKII, you just approach him.

If he wants to shine you off the stage, he needs to somehow get you in-between himself and the blastzone, where as if he is laser-camping you already have him in that bad position.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Only spacies can approach fox.
and fox won't lasercamp spacies, because that dun't work.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Only spacies can approach fox.

You can't be serious.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm completely serious, if fox is playing correctly, you shouldn't be able to approach him, unless you have nair/dair->shine.
Nothing else is safe.
Because shine OoS.
and Fox is just hella fast.
And has amazing defense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't go too deep and you won't get hit by Shine OoS. This might be hard, because you are a Pichu main.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I play like... many characters...
including fox.
Fox is just safe in shield.
If he plays correctly, no matter which character you use, you shouldn't be able to approach (unless you are also a spacie)

 

[Massive]

I play like... many characters...
including fox.
Fox is just safe in shield.
If he plays correctly, no matter which character you use, you shouldn't be able to approach (unless you are also a spacie)

Characters like sheik, puff, marth, and falcon who have reasonably safe approaches against pretty much everyone (and are not spacies) beg to differ.

 

[DerfMidWest]

yo sheik has bad approaches.

And you forget that fox can DD camp every character in this game... like really well...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every top tier can dash-dance camp every other top tier pretty much equally.

I think you are getting "approaching" confused with "blindly rushing in".

You can approach gradually, you know.

 

[Massive]

yo sheik has bad approaches.

And you forget that fox can DD camp every character in this game... like really well...

Needles make most shiek approaches ridiculously safe.
It's like Falco lasers you can angle downward and then get free ground moves off of.

What about peach? If you can't approach with turnips, you can't approach with anything.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Also fox can't run away from Marths grab. Theres not enough room on any stage to get away from it.

Well, maybe yoshi story 64. If marth is on the left cloud. And fox is on the rightmost one. Maybe.

 

[McNinja]

Also fox can't run away from Marths grab. Theres not enough room on any stage to get away from it.

Well, maybe yoshi story 64. If marth is on the left cloud. And fox is on the rightmost one. Maybe.

Lol so true.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm gonna agree with Aesir on this one. Fox's DD camping is much better than pretty much every other char in the game. He can transition so smoothly between safely spacing himself and punishing your mistakes that it's a great defensive tactic. It's aided by the offensive options that he has once he feels like attacking. And once he attacks.....shine. Easy as pie.

Marth - All Marth has is grab, fair, and dtilt. The rest of his moveset is too laggy. His DD is good, but nowhere near as intimidating as fox's.

Sheik - Yes, Sheik's needles are godly, but you have to risk Fox getting under you for that, something he can do easily while DDing. Sheik can't reasonably approach Fox until she gets him to somewhere around 25-30%. Then moves actually start doing knockback and stuff.

Puff - No, Puff doesn't approach; she punishes. Imo, even Hbox does not play defensive enough.

Peach - Turnips don't make everything safe. They just help. Turnips can be attacked through (most of them, anyway). If anything, FC's are what make Peach's approaches reasonably safe. However, Peach is simply too slow to keep up with Fox if he's really committed to hardcore camping (while punishing your mistakes, of course).

Falcon - Falcon gets wrecked by defensive Fox. Everything he does gets punished. Falcon functions off of reads and tech chases. If Fox is being super defensive, Falcon ends up throwing out moves that get punished extremely hard. Grab>uthrow>usmash>shine>follow-up = at least 20% for just one failed read.

 

[Massive]

By all means, please keep spreading misinformation about approaching spacies and drag the collective skill level of everyone down.
It makes it easier for those who know how to approach to win.

Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Massive

 

[DerfMidWest]

Fox's DD is broken.
Approaching Falco is easier.
Fox is just too safe.
Such a good character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think you quite understand the consequences of a character being unapproachable.

If only Fox and Falco could approach Fox, then Fox would HARD COUNTER everyone else.

Take Falcon for example, if Falcon can't pressure Fox at all then there is no reason Fox will make a mistake for Falcon to capitalize upon, therefore: 80:20 Fox's favour.

If thats what you seriously believe then I weep for the new generation of Smashers.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Don't worry, I'm newer to the game than them, and I don't agree with it.

Then again, I'm from New Zealand, so maybe it's a southern hemisphere thing.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Fox craps on falcon.
Falcon cannot safely approach fox, if fox plays right, you'll get ***** for trying to do that.
The matchup probably is like 80:20, tbh. maybe 70:30.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

image removed

 

[bubbaking]

I don't think you quite understand the consequences of a character being unapproachable.

If only Fox and Falco could approach Fox, then Fox would HARD COUNTER everyone else.

Take Falcon for example, if Falcon can't pressure Fox at all then there is no reason Fox will make a mistake for Falcon to capitalize upon, therefore: 80:20 Fox's favour.

If thats what you seriously believe then I weep for the new generation of Smashers.

Read my posts carefully; I never said that Fox is unapproachable. The truth is fully defensive Fox DOES hard counter nearly the whole metagame. There IS no reason for Fox to make a mistake for Falcon to capitalize on. The only reason Falcons find mistakes is because Foxes do stupid things that get them punished and Falcons know their combos so when they give out a punish, they give it hard. Falcon gets punished for screwing up way harder and more easily than Fox does.

Edit: To elaborate, Falcon throws out a nair and Fox runs into it and gets punished for spacing incorrectly. Falcon grabs a Fox in shield cuz he was shielding instead of DDing. That isn't Falcon "pressuring" Fox. That's Fox being dumb and getting punished for it. Fox can just DD nair>shine with a few mixups and he'll be fine against most Falcons.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yet Smoke2Joints still beats Foxes who are far better players than you or I time and time again.

In a game that is over a decade old.

 

[Massive]

In players of roughly equivalent skill level, fox is not unapproachable.
You may have felt that you could not approach a defensive fox who was substantially better than you but that does not mean it's disproportionately out of your favor.

Also, fox's DD can be gamed very easily, hell, even kirby can do it with a well timed WD > utilt or jab.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm so close to posting that suicide picture again.

It'll be totally worth the ban.

 

[DerfMidWest]

player vs player is more important than the matchup.
just saying, in terms of theory, falcon should never be able to touch fox.
and definitely not kirby...
kirby can't touch a decent defensive fox.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We don't play in theory.

So listing a match-up ratio without accounting for the players is pointless lol

 

[DerfMidWest]

Fox still ***** falcon though.
Even in actual play, Falcon is not safe approaching Fox.
He can approach, but it requires fox to make a mistake.
Fox can punish anybody for trying to approach him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Anybody can punish anybody for trying to approach them if they don't make mistakes.

There aren't any 100% safe approaches in Melee.

 

[DerfMidWest]

except for Fox, because nair->shine.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Power-shield.
SDI.
Hit him out of Nair.
Space so he misses the Nair.

 

[DerfMidWest]

if you space so he misses the nair, he can just overshoot it.
If you powershield, he's fox and shine is frame 1.
SDI, he can just reposition himself so that you can't really punish him.
you can hit him out of nair, but he can always bait crap then nair->shine.

either way, fox never has to approach. He's probably the strongest character both defensively and offensively. Nobody should be able to approach if he plays correctly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thats not a perfect approach.

Are you unable to distinguish what is humanly possible from what isn't?