Kirby General Discussion

[Smash G 0 D]

Yes, it's FABulous.

 

[Rappster]

When it comes to competetive smash, no.

I'm trying to improve but with no decent opponents, no skill as anyone but Kirby, no real understanding of how to use blocks effectively (I find attacks generally work better for defending than blocks) and a moral adversity to "wave dashing", can you really expect me to have any idea of the competetive scene?

If you could take the time to explain every tiny detail as to why every move is good or bad and when to use it (or not) then that would almost certainly help but I don't believe anyone actually would do such a thing. That is the sort of thing someone must discover for themselves and facing AI and noobs is not the way to do it.

hello ryuu.
welcome to the boards. i joined the boards after getting linked to the kirby guide on this website. at the time i had no friends (who played smash), too, kinda like your story.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=62115
I would recommend you read "the competitive kirby" (linked above) it is very informative reading, and probably would answer many of your questions. it also has an indepth move list.

re: wavedashing, it was discovered in testing, but was left in the game, so the developers obviously wanted us to make use of it. and it allows for cool stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17J6BbaTR18

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Yep, the same guide that is four threads below us. Already read it I agree that is good actually I think everyone here has read it. It is truly an awesome thread though.

But Wavedashing being discovered in beta testing is new to me, thanks for the info .

 

[Rappster]

Yep, the same guide that is four threads below us. Already read it I agree that is good actually I think everyone here has read it. It is truly an awesome thread though.

But Wavedashing being discovered in beta testing is new to me, thanks for the info .

i don't know that for a fact, but i'm at least 99% sure that it had to have been discovered.

tester: i keep airdodging through platforms
programmer: i'll fix that
tester: whoa, wavedashing.

edit: i also mentioned the guide because ryuu wanted an indepth list of moves.

 

[ryuu seika]

I would recommend you read "the competitive kirby" (linked above) it is very informative reading, and probably would answer many of your questions. it also has an indepth move list.

I read the beggining and decided it wasn't for me. That is not the character I play.
I play a fun killer blob, not some kind of offstage ariel maniac.

Maybe that's where I fail but that style of Kirby just isn't me so I couldn't see the point in reading their "advice".

re: wavedashing, it was discovered in testing, but was left in the game, so the developers obviously wanted us to make use of it. and it allows for cool stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17J6BbaTR18

Same old argument eh?
Left in =/= intended. Left in = lazy.
That =/= cool. That = horrific.

What is done there is well beyond what can be expected of any regular gamer in any game whatsoever under regular conditions. I've seen competetive SF and semi competetive SC and NOTHING in those games even compares to the level of outright brokenness visible in Melee. The stuff that wavedashing allows for is outright insane and creates situations where even top level casual players can't begin to comprehend how the've been outclassed. When the top end of the non-tournament scene doesn't even understand its losses there is something terribly terribly wrong. Losses should be a learning experiance not an "oops, I blinked, what the hell happened?" phenomenon.

I understand I'm ranting too much but the size of the gap between me, a lifelong gamer who beats all callengers 99% of the time in any game and can take on three people at once in brawl (yeah, ok, they weren't the best) and you lot, the tournament level losers (no offence but from what I understand, the people in this section don't win) is beyond comprehension.
I, a near pro at most games, could spend my entire life and still not come close to that.

And with that, I give up. My Kirby simply cannot compare, no matter what I do.

 

[Tamoo]

LOL oh god why do the british have to be so stubborn XD

I really think you're misunderstanding a lot of the words you are using. top level casual player? what the **** is that lol? wavedashing, or anything in melee is nowhere near inherently broken, and i really don't think you can comment on the brokenness of anything in a game in which you didn't even know what jiggs's down b did until very recently.

99% of tournament players could easily beat casual gamers, WITHOUT using any advanced techniques because you underestimate how dominant the necessity to space completely overrides the necessity to use tech skill, although tech skill contributes to spacing if you manage to work it into your game successfully

 

[Rappster]

LOL oh god why do the british have to be so stubborn XD

QFFT

i'ma go through your post line by line.
my comments are in bold

I read the beggining and decided it wasn't for me. That is not the character I play.
I play a fun killer blob, not some kind of offstage ariel maniac.

Maybe that's where I fail but that style of Kirby just isn't me so I couldn't see the point in reading their "advice".
I linked it to you for the moves guide. in appendix three cause thats what you asked for.


Same old argument eh?
Left in =/= intended. Left in = lazy.
That =/= cool. That = horrific.

What is done there is well beyond what can be expected of any regular gamer in any game whatsoever under regular conditions. I've seen competetive SF and semi competetive SC and NOTHING in those games even compares to the level of outright brokenness visible in Melee.
i don't see what you mean by "broken." melee has (relatively) good balance: 2/3 of the cast are playable under tournament conditions without secondaries.
The stuff that wavedashing allows for is outright insane and creates situations where even top level casual players can't begin to comprehend how the've been outclassed. When the top end of the non-tournament scene doesn't even understand its losses there is something terribly terribly wrong.
Is that supposed to be a criticism of melee in particular?
I'm an above-average chess player, but when i play experts/masters/IMs, I get destroyed, and i'm not even sure how it happens. that merely means that chess can be played on many levels, and it has competitve depth (unlike tictactoe or marbles).
Losses should be a learning experiance not an "oops, I blinked, what the hell happened?" phenomenon.
Not mutually exclusive. When i play Sniper, the best smasher in my region, i get *****. but most melee players are willing to help their victims and point out what they did wrong, etc.

I understand I'm ranting too much but the size of the gap between me, a lifelong gamer who beats all callengers 99% of the time in any game and can take on three people at once in brawl (yeah, ok, they weren't the best) and you lot, the tournament level losers (no offence but from what I understand, the people in this section don't win) is beyond comprehension.
I, a near pro at most games, could spend my entire life and still not come close to that.
actually you probably could. Just put in some concerted effort. 20 minutes of good practice, 5 days a week for a month=playing well in tournaments

And with that, I give up. My Kirby simply cannot compare, no matter what I do.

That paragraph makes me sad. What i showed you was like a victor wooten solo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEyEu-hS0fA
i'll never be as good as him, but thats no reason not to try to get better.
There. i tried.
Matthew 10:14

 

[Nashun]

I read the beggining and decided it wasn't for me. That is not the character I play.
I play a fun killer blob, not some kind of offstage ariel maniac.

Maybe that's where I fail but that style of Kirby just isn't me so I couldn't see the point in reading their "advice".



Same old argument eh?
Left in =/= intended. Left in = lazy.
That =/= cool. That = horrific.

What is done there is well beyond what can be expected of any regular gamer in any game whatsoever under regular conditions. I've seen competetive SF and semi competetive SC and NOTHING in those games even compares to the level of outright brokenness visible in Melee. The stuff that wavedashing allows for is outright insane and creates situations where even top level casual players can't begin to comprehend how the've been outclassed. When the top end of the non-tournament scene doesn't even understand its losses there is something terribly terribly wrong. Losses should be a learning experiance not an "oops, I blinked, what the hell happened?" phenomenon.

I understand I'm ranting too much but the size of the gap between me, a lifelong gamer who beats all callengers 99% of the time in any game and can take on three people at once in brawl (yeah, ok, they weren't the best) and you lot, the tournament level losers (no offence but from what I understand, the people in this section don't win) is beyond comprehension.
I, a near pro at most games, could spend my entire life and still not come close to that.

And with that, I give up. My Kirby simply cannot compare, no matter what I do.

Don't flatter yourself. You're not good and you're nowhere near professional. Nearly every competitive game happens to have exploits that the best of players learn to take advantage of. Street Fighter had it in Kara throws; MvC2 had it in plenty of cases regarding cancels and physics, Tekken had it in wavedashing, Starcraft had it in worker stacking. You can play "casual" all you want, but that doesn't make you better; it makes you worse.

99% of the time people like you who think you're good will get outplayed by a real tournament-level player regardless of exploits. It happens every time. None of you are even close to smart enough to competing, let alone close to technical enough. There is no moral obligation; you're creating it yourself.

Think about it bro; in order to get rid of wavedashing in Brawl they had to change the entire way airdodging works. Wavedashing make sense in Melee; it's the expected result of the momentum airdodging gives you.

But hey, you stay being mediocre. I'd rather be a tourney-loser people I don't know respect than a casual player who thinks he's good because he can beat all of his horrible friends.

Edit: Trust - None of your characters will ever be able to compare if you keep up with that mindset. You're asking for advice while being unwilling to improve.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i've beaten people using only nair as pichu and I can't DD right so I must WD why I main jigglypuff all day in ssb no ground movement whatso ever compared to falcon. yes I know there isn't as much DDing in the game but i'm programed like ssbm.

really beating people in most cases is a decent way of saying your better unlike if they have gone blind or something. but if I lose to sheik as pichu question why did I let sheik hit me? I could've avoided that attack and got an attack myself i could be better at reads, MU knowledge, mindgames, edgegaurd, and combos to max out my hits.

If I lose like 95% of the time it's totally my fault also at WDing it's not like there isn't another way to move watch falcon matches and tell me what's more broken smart predictions/combo sor WDing?

 

[BunBun]

Ryuu Seika, if you're awesome at almost any game, want to put some $$ down on a cs1.6 match? We can do it 1v1 or 5v5. You get your team, I get mine. $20-$50 per person?

There are very few 'exploits' or 'advanced techniques' that casuals won't know in CS.

 

[ryuu seika]

If CS is "Counter Strike" then nah. I don't play shooters.

I'll take you on at any non-horror, non-shooting PS1 game without blood or guts though. I'd rather not wager because I'm simply not a gambling man. Virtual poker tended to eat my life so I learnt my lesson.

EDIT: All I was trying to say is that practically any other game you can look at tournament players and go "Wow, these guys know what they're doing!". In Melee it's more "Wow, these guys are really fast but the look kinda noobish. What on earth is actually going on in this match?".

Basically, Melee is unlike other top level gaming in that you can't understand what's going on from the videos unless you already know how tournament play works. That much seems somewhat wrong to me.

EDIT 2: forget the beating you. That was supposed to be an "I finally give up, nothing I do can even come close to you guys so why should I bother trying?" post, not an "I'm good but Melee cheats me!" post. I was trying to get away from this whole discussion of my skill, knowledge and lack thereof. I lack, end of subject.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wait you said you were good at like most games but you don't play shooters???

this logic fail is bad but not enough to make my head expolde. CS is a great shooter game.

well man if you don't that game serious you will never understand ANY high level games from chess to ssb you'll be totally confused. I'm getting much better at reads so it will look like i'm doing random attack I f-smash at nothing as falco however my brother began to roll because i predicted how he would react in falco dittos(laserless) when I tryed to approach witgh inv. frames. i'll full hop nair at times because I make great reads on him i know what he's going to do before he does it anymore.

in a shooter you may throw a nade in a random way at nothing wouldn't you think their dumb for wasting it? most likly they are trying to force them out of a great camping place or their team comes through there. or maybe it's bait to figure out which way their team went. skome nades on blooddtrike are very funthrow is to a random place or around where you'll hide. or maybe you went the other way all together. even better with more people. everyone using them you can make walls protecting nothing or everyone is there hide numbers and let you know that people are there.


I've used nades in random places to stop snipers even if the placement looks random it's very rare that itt is. i'll admit I'm most likly not good but I was the best at school by far. most people would die before they could fire

 

[ryuu seika]

Don't get involved ICG. This will only turn ugly if you do.
I despise you and all that you stand for. You are the guy who talks rubbish and everyone loves. The guy I've always wanted to be. Please, just leave me alone.

Oh and I hate pokemon.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

What I stand for is looking for what's right it's simplely most people really don't want to hear my serious side. I love to point fun but really deep thinking is what I care more about.

really isn't it your choice who you are i've changed so much by choice I used to be a lieing douchebag who beat the f*** out of people who I disargeed with could you tell I was like that from before?

If you can't control yourself what's different between you and a robot programmed to walk into walls.

 

[ryuu seika]

And what does any of that have to do with you being liked for spouting nonsense and me being disliked for it?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

aim your head to where you want to be and go. If you want to be nice simply be nice if you want to be a lover iit's your choice free yourself from yourself.

Also i don't dislike you and I really don't see any reason you should be by anyone esle. I don't know I judge people differently.

 

[ryuu seika]

This nonsense is starting to confuse me.

Back on topic, is dashing up to the opponent and FAB jumping (not shorthopping) over them so that just the last hit or 2 strike from behind, Lcancelling (if possile) and turning round on landing straight into an Ftilt (giving you enough distance to run away before thy're back in attack range) a good tactic? Besides projectiles interrupting the dash I can't see why it wouldn't be as FAB is one of Kirby's highest priority moves and strikes from behind are harder to block. The projectile problem could most likely be countered by replacing dash with fireball as the movement speed remains roughly the same and if they try to respond to it somhow (turning to gaurd behind maybe) you just carry on with fireball instead and FAB them on the way down.
It also seems to be a good tactic to do this when they're near edges as the Ftilt can then become a Uair (as you don't land after FAB then), giving you just enough time to ledge grab in most cases. At high percentages the FAB can be enough to knock them off the edge, meaning that they're airborne and so recieve a lot more knockback from Uair, usually making it fatal (note: Uair must be perfomed away from the ledge so as to hit them in the right direction but you are already facing that way so it shouldn't be hard).

 

[Triple R]

I don't I'm the only one confused by your non smashboards lingo lol. May I ask what FABing is?

 

[ryuu seika]

FAB is Forward Ariel B. Under conventional abrieviations it would be AFB but that's sucky as acronyms go.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Jesus christ the kirby boards just get more and more ******** every day.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

question here so we get like 20ish% if they fall for it then they grab you or they sheild the side-B and just punish you or they move out of the way because his side-B wouldn't go far basically stays in place and I think you understand the ffalw in that right?

but if it works they'll most likly grab you and punish you I can't help but think of marth f-throw f-smash to edge gaurd to death. really if kirby full hops it's clear he's going to attack or get smacked in the face or projectiled. really as good as that gets is to be a mindgame that you'd use because everyone knows the hammer is horriblely bad and they'd never expect if but the massive lag and lack of any follow up or knockback. so maybe if fox full hops into nair this may be semi decent.

overall it's worse than random side-B as pichu if that gives you an idea how bad this is. also play 1-player mode vs the pikachu's and pichu's and try to punsih the side-Bs they surprise you.

 

[ryuu seika]

FAB doesn't have the same level of lag as ground hammer surely? Ground hammer sucks for sure but air hammer?! The idea is to use FAB just after you jump so as to perform it with all the movemet your first jump would normally allow you, rather than the limited movement the hammer normally has. Striking only during the landing should help with the blocking issue as you'd think they'd expect an attack from infront. If the attack hits you should be able to follow up with the Ftilt and then everyone but Link and Samus should be distanced too much to grab.

 

[Tamoo]

Jesus christ the kirby boards just get more and more ******** every day.

QFT why this board in particular :/

Also ryuu, you can't l-cancel an AFB or FAB or whatever

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

walk up grab or CC grab or sheild grab or DD away into grab or fair lag into grab or sheild WD grab.

 

[ryuu seika]

Can you not, y'know, move?
So you can only L-cancel moves that are fine without it? Who thought up that rubbish?

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. If you can do any of all of those to a FAB jump -> Ftilt can you not do them to just about any move in existance, thus being able to infinite grab out of practicly anything, thereby making the game one of patience whereby the player who attacks first always ends up infinity thrown off an edge with no chance of recovery?

I'm just not even understanding how anything is possible in this game anymore. Has it really devolved into projetile them till they jump, then attack in the air because the ground isn't safe? If so, this is a crap game at tournament level. Were's the skill in that?

Oh and while I'm at it ICG, did you miss the part about it hitting from behind or do you believe people to be able to block backwards?

 

[Tamoo]

You can l-cancel all your arial moves, ie. moves that you do in the air using the a button, not the b button (unless you're using Game and watch)

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yes people can block from bedind and if they are backwards chances are their bair is amazing so you f***ed twice as bad. also kirby is just forced on to the ground for the most part because his air moves are fairly easy to punish compared to his tilts. for ground game ice climbers, sheik, samus are all useable chacrers with that are heavily played on the ground. projectile till they jump???? it works nice if they can't approach maybe like maybe vs kirby.

also the main reason the ground game lacks isn't because of air moves being better when there are MANY amazing ground moves. it's simplely the mix-ups on ground makes it very unsafe to approach at times and you can't do a safe retreating f-tilt they would set-up anything but maybe as yoshi but we all see the problem there.

The thing is your no longer using logic think about high levels and what I said. At higher levels people use many different options/mix-ups I geuss and must adapt and read and mindgame their foe into where they want them to be. marth must force them off the edge nomrally done by grabs and combos which clearly go hand and hand. but if marth only grabs he will land less than if he only grabbed a few times a match. vs laserless falco dittos i'll aproach with up-tilt like WD backwards into it and start comboing ground moves are very useable. And maybe i'll Wd backwards into bair shne to avoid being grabbed.





really for kirby i'd learn a few mindgame tricks like bair wall into waveland up-tilt or when you land dash attack (rarly like max 2 times a match) that and basic camping and reads.

 

[Pink Reaper]

QFT why this board in particular :/

Also ryuu, you can't l-cancel an AFB or FAB or whatever

I blame ICG and Ryuu. Actually I take that back, I only blame Ryuu. ICG says some mostly ******** stuff but he rarely ever actually degrades a conversation at hand. He just comes along and ads a little carzy to the situation and makes it hilarious.

 

[Rappster]

This nonsense is starting to confuse me.

Back on topic, is dashing up to the opponent and FAB jumping (not shorthopping) over them so that just the last hit or 2 strike from behind, Lcancelling (if possile) and turning round on landing straight into an Ftilt (giving you enough distance to run away before thy're back in attack range) a good tactic? Besides projectiles interrupting the dash I can't see why it wouldn't be as FAB is one of Kirby's highest priority moves and strikes from behind are harder to block. The projectile problem could most likely be countered by replacing dash with fireball as the movement speed remains roughly the same and if they try to respond to it somhow (turning to gaurd behind maybe) you just carry on with fireball instead and FAB them on the way down.
It also seems to be a good tactic to do this when they're near edges as the Ftilt can then become a Uair (as you don't land after FAB then), giving you just enough time to ledge grab in most cases. At high percentages the FAB can be enough to knock them off the edge, meaning that they're airborne and so recieve a lot more knockback from Uair, usually making it fatal (note: Uair must be perfomed away from the ledge so as to hit them in the right direction but you are already facing that way so it shouldn't be hard).

wait, so if i understand you correctly, you want to jump OVERthem and sideB, and then turn around, ftilt, right?
i was gonna totally shoot that idea down, but then i went and practiced it a couple times.
first off, it's unnecessarily complex.
Second, you are completely vulnerable until you start your sideB. if you are gonna wait till you pass over your opponent, then you're asking for a utilt/usmash/nair, etc.
a much better option seems to be shorthop sideB. if you're close enough, you'll pass through your opponents shield, leaving you in a good place to utilt him when you land.

 

[Nashun]

if you're close enough, you'll pass through your opponents shield, leaving you in a good place to utilt him when you land.

It's a common misconception that Kirby has advantage on hit with aerial hammer.

He doesn't. The opponent recovers from hitstun faster than Kirby recovers from lag. There is no feasible follow-up to aerial hammer, even if you hit, other than getting hit back.

 

[BunBun]

Space it well reversed, and unless your opponent ccs or sdi's out of the very last 2 hits, and it's pretty safe to utilt.

 

[BunBun]

Pretend that grammar makes sense. I'm tired.

 

[Triple R]

That's the only way I mess with hammer. Short hop reverse hammer and try to space it so they can't grab you. They can dtilt, dsmash, or whatever pretty easy if they CC, but if they don't, yeah like bunbun said, just try to utilt right away

 

[ryuu seika]

wait, so if i understand you correctly, you want to jump OVERthem and sideB, and then turn around, ftilt, right?

Wrong. If you use Side B at the beggining of Kirby's first regular jump you still retain the full motion of the jump, thus allowing you to jump over them while using Side B, negating that opening vunerability of which you speak.

Unlike your method, mine actually lifts them off their feet if unblocked and therefore DOES allow you to get in the followup hit, though they do land just in time to possibly block it.

If it is indeed possible to block a hit from behind without turning then that would indeed negate the whole point of the move, leaving you wide open to a followup SHFFL Bair at the very least and possibly a chain grab if they have time to turn. All in all, this one weird feature of Melee that most fighters don't share invalidates the whole move, except perhaps for the edge use but who just stands by the edge anyway?

I blame ICG and Ryuu. Actually I take that back, I only blame Ryuu. ICG says some mostly ******** stuff but he rarely ever actually degrades a conversation at hand. He just comes along and ads a little carzy to the situation and makes it hilarious.

Sorry. I'm trying to uderstand what is good and what isn't and, with the information I had at hand, this seemed like a decent attack combo.

I know understand that it clearly doesn't work but this then leaves me wondering. If your opponent is on the ground, how are you supposed to do anything but projectile without giving them a chance to chain grab you? This then makes things even harder for Kirby as his projectile only really works a response to others.

 

[ryuu seika]

Double Post

 

[BunBun]

Kirby can only be cg'd by one character, IIRC.

Movement and spacing are key to not getting shieldgrabbed. Most of the moves in the game aren't shield grabbable if you space them properly, and most characters have ways to assault shields in the air without getting grabbed.

Using hammer is almost never safe, even in the air. It is a bad move. Don't judge what can and can't be viable in the game based off if one if the worst character's worst moves.

If your opponent is on the ground, hit his shield with spaced fair or bair. Aerial hammer is dangerous, but occasionally you can catch people with it. It's still bad though. In almost any situation, they can get out of it.

Tilts, fair and bair are kirby's best shield responses.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Just curious why is it that the Kirby boards are more active (from my perspective they appear that way.) than some of the other bottom tier characters (Bar Mewtwo, Yoshi and I do not know about the Ness boards as I have not been paying attention to them.) Not that it is a bad thing I like the Kirby boards I just wish to know the Kirby boards secret to staying active.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ntilt isn't great and Fair appears as bad at first glance but the first two hits have good range to pressure their shield before the third hit which has great knockback. Bair is good but cannot really make up a large part of MY moveset as positioning is difficult without wavedash (hard to aproach backwards otherwise).

Fireball passes through shields. Why is it bad? I know it is but know not the reasoning. Is it just too signposted?

Just curious why is it that the Kirby boards are more active (from my perspective they appear that way.) than some of the other bottom tier characters

I get the feelling that Kirby appeals more to noobs with skill (like me) than the other low tier characters do, thus making it a more popular board among newcomers than the other low tier specifics.

This is purely speculation though.

EDIT: Just to clarify "noobs with skill" are those who have plenty of experiance with the game but still haven't a clue what they're doing. This is different from those without in that they tend to actually own the game and thus are far more likely to frequent a forum about it.

 

[BunBun]

Fireball is too telegraphed, and moves too slow. It also has garbage priority.




The kirby boards are active because when activity dies, I start stupid new threads.

 

[ryuu seika]

It also has garbage priority.

Yes and no. It seems to hit whatever, it just also lets them hit you and usually for a lot more damage when they do.

It might be decent if you're just a few percent off being able to get that final kill but otherwise yeah, it's too signposted.