I thought it would be interesting to buff D3's minions. I mean, let them hit a bit harder, a bit more often, and be more durable, making them more than just a projectile as they are now. Combos supported by waddle-dees... oh the awesomeness, 3 against one.
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King DDD+; rejoice for the chain grab!
- Thread starter ph00tbag
- Start date
jalued
Smash Lord
oh yes i support lol. they should last for longer and be useful for DDD
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
Actually, dedede's down throw is still useful in other ways. Downthrow can be linked with a dair, which can then be linked to a utilt, resulting in around 35% unavoidable damage.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
*sorry for double post, but* it's not completely unavoidable, but then the only way you can get out of it is to tech the throw, but even then, the dair will probably still end up hitting them after the invincibility frames.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
dedede definately got nerfed but hes a whole lot more fun to play as id say hes a solid middle tier now
So... What are we waiting for? ^_^
Revven
FrankerZ
Can't... do anything... about... his minions... at alll... right nowwwwww.... (A NEW code has to be made).
Wavedash Master
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 322
The new neutral air buff is just great! It gives him a great defensive attack and the move gives him much more options. I tend to use it for edgeguarding even (the larger hitbox tends to make a wall like attack, which is good for keeping your opponent off the stage). I never really used King Dedede that much, but his aerial game that he has now really makes him a viable character.
The Phazon Assassin
Smash Champion
His Nair is useful now? I need to update my codeset, lik, right STAT now.
But, I can't...
But, I can't...
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
What do you guys think of Fox vs Dedede? I think it's close to even but Fox's advantage. Fox overwhelms Dedede, but Dedede has nasty gimps on him.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
I'd say an even 50:50 honestly.
Fox can combo Dedede because of his size, Dedede can combo Fox because of his fall speed, and both have very reliable ways to kill on each other.
Fox can combo Dedede for much more damage on average, but an offstage Fox is a dead Fox against Dedede's bair and dair.
Fox can combo Dedede because of his size, Dedede can combo Fox because of his fall speed, and both have very reliable ways to kill on each other.
Fox can combo Dedede for much more damage on average, but an offstage Fox is a dead Fox against Dedede's bair and dair.
S
smash brawl player 99021
Guest
^ Yes. DDD's nair has a huuuuuuuuuugeass hitbox now too :D
CO18
Smash Hero
Daydayday Still beastly. 
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
DDD is fun to tech chase with he still has d-throw as a tech chase mind you
as for the fox matchup id say 50-50 leaning in fox's favor
as for the fox matchup id say 50-50 leaning in fox's favor
metaXzero
Smash Champion
^That would mean 45:55. 50:50 is even with no advantage at all (like a ditto).
Nybb
Smash Journeyman
My local group found something really hilarious. Throw a minion, and have Captain Falcon jab it. Then have Falcon take a step foward, jab, step forward, jab, etc. The minion just helplessly floats at around Falcon's face level, and it is soo funny. I would upload a replay if I could.
Also yeah, Fox can do some pretty intense combos to DDD, but he should basically never make it back once he is off the stage. I think DDD should be able to in theory out space Fox, with minions blocking lasers at long range, and like all of his ground moves out-ranging Fox.
I think it is DDD's best bet to play a bit defensively, trying to build a bit of damage, then b-air or b-throw or d-tilt Fox off the stage as soon as the opportunity arises, then proceed to go ape**** crazy all over Fox's awful offstage game.
I would put it at slight advantage DDD, but definitely no more than 60-40 because Fox can still combo his *** really hard. Probably 55-45 for DDD IMO.
Also yeah, Fox can do some pretty intense combos to DDD, but he should basically never make it back once he is off the stage. I think DDD should be able to in theory out space Fox, with minions blocking lasers at long range, and like all of his ground moves out-ranging Fox.
I think it is DDD's best bet to play a bit defensively, trying to build a bit of damage, then b-air or b-throw or d-tilt Fox off the stage as soon as the opportunity arises, then proceed to go ape**** crazy all over Fox's awful offstage game.
I would put it at slight advantage DDD, but definitely no more than 60-40 because Fox can still combo his *** really hard. Probably 55-45 for DDD IMO.
So in other words Minions are impacted with hitstun exactly like characters would...?'
That isn't good...
talking about d3...
I think he may have the advantage on Sheik, Ivy and Zard, MAYBE MARTH, maybe Meta.
But he seems to get the 'bop' quite hard by Zelda... It's like 500x harder than it was in vBrawl to get through the cow
It seems brawl+'s changes have made (seemingly almost opposite to what he was in vBrawl) the character to have the advantage over light weights as a heavy weight. With having a recovery generally unaffected; pretty good damage output, and still a reasonably well off shield who can withstand the heat from a lot of chars and still get the grab...
Dededes 'losses' are the chain grab, top tier shield;
his gains are the weight being more effective (no momentum cancelling makes weight even more important), his recovery is still 'the same' as in designed to not rely on sweetspots; and unbelievable gimping game.
Dedede could still do with some tweaking though, but he's a pretty solid character. The painful thing is that his options to combo and speed limit him quite a bit. Perhaps speed up his dash attack, but remove a lot of its power? The thought process of how to tweak D3 'more usable' is a complicated one.
That isn't good...
talking about d3...
I think he may have the advantage on Sheik, Ivy and Zard, MAYBE MARTH, maybe Meta.
But he seems to get the 'bop' quite hard by Zelda... It's like 500x harder than it was in vBrawl to get through the cow
It seems brawl+'s changes have made (seemingly almost opposite to what he was in vBrawl) the character to have the advantage over light weights as a heavy weight. With having a recovery generally unaffected; pretty good damage output, and still a reasonably well off shield who can withstand the heat from a lot of chars and still get the grab...
Dededes 'losses' are the chain grab, top tier shield;
his gains are the weight being more effective (no momentum cancelling makes weight even more important), his recovery is still 'the same' as in designed to not rely on sweetspots; and unbelievable gimping game.
Dedede could still do with some tweaking though, but he's a pretty solid character. The painful thing is that his options to combo and speed limit him quite a bit. Perhaps speed up his dash attack, but remove a lot of its power? The thought process of how to tweak D3 'more usable' is a complicated one.
This is very true. Most of DDD's game is very precisely tuned towards a certain goal. There's not much mix and match going on like there obviously is for other characters, so tweaking one move may have ramifications on his overall game.
Maybe making his dtilt more useful as a combo starter would be nice. As it is, DDD's combo game is based off of grab and dair currently, both of which are really only safe as defensive OOS options, which makes DDD very slow to get on the offensive. His best bet now is to poke with his tilts, then hope for an opening in which he can run in and shield, allowing him to grab or dair. It could even be like Captain Falcon or ZSS's dtilts, which only make for effective combo moves at certain spacing.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Increase his gimping and defending options.
Give dtilt spike properties like Ike's dtilt.
Give the last hit on Upair spike properties like ZSS Upb.
The Nair wall will also aid to this.
Try and give ftilt a way to stop projectiles, something that can potentially stop a defensive DDD.
Though a useless move, giving his UpB slightly more priority wouldn't hurt either.
These are my suggestions to enhance Brawl+ DDD.
Give dtilt spike properties like Ike's dtilt.
Give the last hit on Upair spike properties like ZSS Upb.
The Nair wall will also aid to this.
Try and give ftilt a way to stop projectiles, something that can potentially stop a defensive DDD.
Though a useless move, giving his UpB slightly more priority wouldn't hurt either.
These are my suggestions to enhance Brawl+ DDD.
But would they do anything worthwhile, or make him 'broken'?
D3 already has some of the best gimping options in the game
defending options? if some of the ones you've described already aren' included here please describe
Dtilt getting a semi spike property (angle at 300 degrees or something?) may be worth trying out... i.e. a move that pushes them off stage far.. but may be too 'good' as a ledge guarder
His jab outprios a lot of projectiles. And why are you focussing on his camp/defensive game? I think Dedede would benefit from APPROACHING options...
What do you mean by giving Up B more priority? faster to start? Faster fall? Actually, those two may be good for dedede; but otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.
And as I said at the start, your ideas for buffs may or may not necessarily enhance D3, more than give buffs to his already GOOD points.
D3 already has some of the best gimping options in the game
defending options? if some of the ones you've described already aren' included here please describe
Dtilt getting a semi spike property (angle at 300 degrees or something?) may be worth trying out... i.e. a move that pushes them off stage far.. but may be too 'good' as a ledge guarder
His jab outprios a lot of projectiles. And why are you focussing on his camp/defensive game? I think Dedede would benefit from APPROACHING options...
What do you mean by giving Up B more priority? faster to start? Faster fall? Actually, those two may be good for dedede; but otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.
And as I said at the start, your ideas for buffs may or may not necessarily enhance D3, more than give buffs to his already GOOD points.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
No, I mean a full meteor spike, like Ike's dtilt. This will also leave the opponent close enough to combo when hit on stage.
[/quote]What do you mean by giving Up B more priority? faster to start? Faster fall? Actually, those two may be good for dedede; but otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.[/quote]
I mean that when hitboxes collide, that DDDs up B should win out at least some time, nearly if not all aerials can stop it. It should have slightly higher priority.
Because DDD isn't someone who focuses on approaching. He is someone who punishes and punishes big, in the same manor as May in Guilty Gear.
Giving him offense options is like giving Jigglypuff an amazing ground game.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
yea typo ma bad lol
Commander_Beef
Smash Champion
Brawl+ is broken -_-...
Revven
FrankerZ
It's not broken. DI is important. I can't even see the last two combos being possible at all, and the first one? Video plz.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
the first one is possible but i dont think its a REAL combo
3rd combo i use it all the time
2nd combo is possible with only 1 uair
3rd combo i use it all the time
2nd combo is possible with only 1 uair
Here some Friendly Matches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UI5aPw5ac Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wwD3JKTlp8 Match 2
My brother is still learning some things,so,dont blame him. =X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UI5aPw5ac Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wwD3JKTlp8 Match 2
My brother is still learning some things,so,dont blame him. =X
Jos
Smash Rookie
Those combos...aren't real. Proper DI and they don't work.
Uthrow -> Uair -> Bair/Fair/Nair (depending on DI) is what I go to most out Uthrow, but even that I don't think is a true combo (maybe at low %).
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Is there a full changelist anywhere for DDD?
Revven
FrankerZ
brawlplus.net is your friend.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Ah. I see. Thanks.
My friend (the one of us who owns the Wii) is a little hesitant because he heard his main, DDD, got worse in Brawl+. I need something to show him otherwise; that changelist should work.
My friend (the one of us who owns the Wii) is a little hesitant because he heard his main, DDD, got worse in Brawl+. I need something to show him otherwise; that changelist should work.
He was my secondary in vBrawl, decided to pick him up again after all that DDD being the worst character talk in the Nightly thread.
No way in hell DDD is the worst in B+. I would put him far from it. I don't care how fat he is, no amount of combos can be THAT detrimental when he has so much going for him. Look at the spacies; they get ***** by combos (Wolf isn't as bad with the sexy shine, but meh) and it doesn't stop them.
Autocanceled Dair is so ****. Either they get hit by it and start some combo ****, or they shield it only to be hit by a grab as soon as you autocancel it. Grab them with his stupid long grab and they eat a Uthrow combo, Dthrow techchase, or just a flat 16% from Bthrow and get sent well offstage for his amazing gimp game.
If they are anywhere horizontal to you offstage just go for a Bair WoP or Fair WoP. If they are below the stage catch them in a Dair which will lead into Fairs or Bairs. Uair kills really early if they are high up above the stage. There's basically no escaping him... If you are onstage you can edgegaurd with Dtilt, Ftilt works well on some characters (like Diddy), if they go above the stage you can just catch them with Utilt as they fall helpless. Of course if you are feeling gutsy you can go for an Fsmash and get an insanely early kill.
And then if they start to SDI out of Dair regularly you can just switch to Nair. At low percents it combos into a grab, or even better you can Nair into Jab, and the second hit jab is another grab for him. Nair also combos into Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Usmash, Fair/Bair, Dair, or another Nair depending on the percent.
I almost wish Waddle toss was a little less laggy on the cooldown because it isn't as effective in the faster B+ gameplay, but Waddles themselves are great projectiles. Have two of them bouncing around on stage makes dealing with other projectile spam easier because they will soak up a fair amount of spam. They can force approaches on a lot of characters, and the chance for a Gordo is always a plus.
And of course there's his grab. I already mentioned it, but there is no way you can give his grab game enough merit. The only character that can compete with his grab game overall is Olimar. Other characters may have grabs that are as useful, but nobody lands grabs like DDD or Olimar (Charizard is close but his grab game doesn't have as much uses as DDD's or Olimar's). Olimar has a longer grab, but he doesn't get super armor on it which I'm starting to feel really plays a more important role the better I get at this game. Not being able to grab through smashes, or aerials that normally would hit/**** you sucks.
Dthrow guarantees techchases. It's beautiful. You can read them into another grab, or whatever attack that hits them. If they tech in place or roll behind its another grab for you. When teching away, some characters with really bad techs can be regrabbed but when they have really long techs I take the opportunity to throw a Waddle on the stage.
Uthrow sets up for combos really well, shooting it from his worst throw in vBrawl to potentially his best (depends on how well you techchase). Generally speaking you can only get off a Uair or Nair, but if they airdodge you can catch them with any other aerial as long as you time it well. Very effective on fast fallers because Nair is guaranteed on them, and Nair links into his other aerials where as Uair tends to have too much knock back from anything.
Bthrow is a guaranteed 16%, high KB getting them offstage very well, and when his other throws don't seem to be working well its the grab to go to. Best thing about Bthrow is that it sets up for gimps early on because of how strong it is.
Fthrow is his only meh throw. Not as strong as Bthrow, but it does get them offstage if you are facing the wrong direction for a Bthrow. I almost wish it had a slightly lower angle, but the rest of his throws are so great that he really doesn't need it.
He has Bair, Fair, autocanceled Dair and Nair all for aerial approaches. Bair is basically the same thing as Kirby's Bair; frame 6 hit with surprising disjointed range and priority. Fair has a huge hitbox horizontally and vertically, but it is fairly laggy so you have to commit more to it. Dair lacks the range of Bair and Fair, but it is lagless and sets up for great combos. Fast falled Nair doesn't have that much range, but its very quick, and has a lot of followups which makes it a great mixup. Ftilt pokes very well, cancels out a ton of projectiles, and is very disjointed which makes it useful as well.
Killing tends to come from gimps, and Utilt. Though at higher percents Bair and Fair kill well, as well as Bthrow. Uair kills well at the top, and you can score early kills chasing them when they try to recovery high and hit them with Uair. If you are lucky enough to land his slow as hell Fsmash then you mine as well just win the game right there. Though NASL makes Fsmash an actually viable move.
If you don't get anything out from that wall of text, just take this: DDD has reliable setups into combos, his all purpose grab game, and gimping, as well as reliable ways to kill outside of gimps. There's no way a character with all of that is bad. Another thing to consider; most other characters with good combo games, grab game, and kill options also have easy to gimp recoveries.
No way in hell DDD is the worst in B+. I would put him far from it. I don't care how fat he is, no amount of combos can be THAT detrimental when he has so much going for him. Look at the spacies; they get ***** by combos (Wolf isn't as bad with the sexy shine, but meh) and it doesn't stop them.
Autocanceled Dair is so ****. Either they get hit by it and start some combo ****, or they shield it only to be hit by a grab as soon as you autocancel it. Grab them with his stupid long grab and they eat a Uthrow combo, Dthrow techchase, or just a flat 16% from Bthrow and get sent well offstage for his amazing gimp game.
If they are anywhere horizontal to you offstage just go for a Bair WoP or Fair WoP. If they are below the stage catch them in a Dair which will lead into Fairs or Bairs. Uair kills really early if they are high up above the stage. There's basically no escaping him... If you are onstage you can edgegaurd with Dtilt, Ftilt works well on some characters (like Diddy), if they go above the stage you can just catch them with Utilt as they fall helpless. Of course if you are feeling gutsy you can go for an Fsmash and get an insanely early kill.
And then if they start to SDI out of Dair regularly you can just switch to Nair. At low percents it combos into a grab, or even better you can Nair into Jab, and the second hit jab is another grab for him. Nair also combos into Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Usmash, Fair/Bair, Dair, or another Nair depending on the percent.
I almost wish Waddle toss was a little less laggy on the cooldown because it isn't as effective in the faster B+ gameplay, but Waddles themselves are great projectiles. Have two of them bouncing around on stage makes dealing with other projectile spam easier because they will soak up a fair amount of spam. They can force approaches on a lot of characters, and the chance for a Gordo is always a plus.
And of course there's his grab. I already mentioned it, but there is no way you can give his grab game enough merit. The only character that can compete with his grab game overall is Olimar. Other characters may have grabs that are as useful, but nobody lands grabs like DDD or Olimar (Charizard is close but his grab game doesn't have as much uses as DDD's or Olimar's). Olimar has a longer grab, but he doesn't get super armor on it which I'm starting to feel really plays a more important role the better I get at this game. Not being able to grab through smashes, or aerials that normally would hit/**** you sucks.
Dthrow guarantees techchases. It's beautiful. You can read them into another grab, or whatever attack that hits them. If they tech in place or roll behind its another grab for you. When teching away, some characters with really bad techs can be regrabbed but when they have really long techs I take the opportunity to throw a Waddle on the stage.
Uthrow sets up for combos really well, shooting it from his worst throw in vBrawl to potentially his best (depends on how well you techchase). Generally speaking you can only get off a Uair or Nair, but if they airdodge you can catch them with any other aerial as long as you time it well. Very effective on fast fallers because Nair is guaranteed on them, and Nair links into his other aerials where as Uair tends to have too much knock back from anything.
Bthrow is a guaranteed 16%, high KB getting them offstage very well, and when his other throws don't seem to be working well its the grab to go to. Best thing about Bthrow is that it sets up for gimps early on because of how strong it is.
Fthrow is his only meh throw. Not as strong as Bthrow, but it does get them offstage if you are facing the wrong direction for a Bthrow. I almost wish it had a slightly lower angle, but the rest of his throws are so great that he really doesn't need it.
He has Bair, Fair, autocanceled Dair and Nair all for aerial approaches. Bair is basically the same thing as Kirby's Bair; frame 6 hit with surprising disjointed range and priority. Fair has a huge hitbox horizontally and vertically, but it is fairly laggy so you have to commit more to it. Dair lacks the range of Bair and Fair, but it is lagless and sets up for great combos. Fast falled Nair doesn't have that much range, but its very quick, and has a lot of followups which makes it a great mixup. Ftilt pokes very well, cancels out a ton of projectiles, and is very disjointed which makes it useful as well.
Killing tends to come from gimps, and Utilt. Though at higher percents Bair and Fair kill well, as well as Bthrow. Uair kills well at the top, and you can score early kills chasing them when they try to recovery high and hit them with Uair. If you are lucky enough to land his slow as hell Fsmash then you mine as well just win the game right there. Though NASL makes Fsmash an actually viable move.
If you don't get anything out from that wall of text, just take this: DDD has reliable setups into combos, his all purpose grab game, and gimping, as well as reliable ways to kill outside of gimps. There's no way a character with all of that is bad. Another thing to consider; most other characters with good combo games, grab game, and kill options also have easy to gimp recoveries.
How's that for discussion Neko? :V
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Nice post plum.
People think D3 sucks because they fit into 1 of the 3 categories.
1. Honestly ignorant of how good he is. They assume that since he's big=easy to combo due to Brawl+ new physics.
2. D3 haters. The D3 haters hated that fatass from vBrawl, and honestly wish from their heart that D3 sucks. They listen words from the first category. but they accept it more readily.
3. D3 fans who haven't played him much, but are terribly angry because of his nerfs.
People think D3 sucks because they fit into 1 of the 3 categories.
1. Honestly ignorant of how good he is. They assume that since he's big=easy to combo due to Brawl+ new physics.
2. D3 haters. The D3 haters hated that fatass from vBrawl, and honestly wish from their heart that D3 sucks. They listen words from the first category. but they accept it more readily.
3. D3 fans who haven't played him much, but are terribly angry because of his nerfs.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Plum is like my favorite non-WBR poster.
DDD is better than both the Mother boys. Nuff said.
DDD is better than both the Mother boys. Nuff said.
Good ****, Plum.
I did notice how you didn't mention anything about utilt, surprisingly. Or maybe I just missed it.
Surprisingly enough, the move does have combo potential at fresh-low percents. I've been able to utilt twice on nearly every character at 0% and almost always follow up with a Nair, which comes out surprisingly quick.
What are the uses of Nair now. They seem to be spread far and out so I really can't pin one thing on Nair.
I did notice how you didn't mention anything about utilt, surprisingly. Or maybe I just missed it.
Surprisingly enough, the move does have combo potential at fresh-low percents. I've been able to utilt twice on nearly every character at 0% and almost always follow up with a Nair, which comes out surprisingly quick.
What are the uses of Nair now. They seem to be spread far and out so I really can't pin one thing on Nair.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Utilt straight up beats a lot of aerials too if you time it perfectly. It can even beat G&W's dair, now that's some scary ****.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
You trying to start something?
I won't contest it but I believe is Lucas is pretty close to his skill.