KGD - The Kewkky Thread! - Kirby's Wasteland: Dead Social

[t!MmY]

*looks at new layout*
Wait, is April Fools still going on?

 

[MikeKirby]

Loooove the new layout!!! Everything looks so modern!!

I'll miss Melee Bowser trollin' the upper left corner though.

 

[A1lion835]

They didn't update Smash Blue... I switched to "Vibrant" (what happened to my precious Revolutionary?) just to see how it was.

Not sure whether or not I like this more than SB.

 

[Gova]

Does no one check the video thread? I was kinda hoping someone would offer some critcism.

 

[A1lion835]

New Ruleset.

Discuzayum?

 

[thrillagorilla]

New Ruleset.

Discuzayum?

I gotta ask t1mmy what happened. It looks like they didn't listen to him.

*shakes head at the bad stage list*

 

[fromundaman]

Does no one check the video thread? I was kinda hoping someone would offer some critcism.

Sorry, I'll get to it eventually. In the middle of a lot of stuff still. I'm technically "back", but I still haven't solved all my current housing/work issues.

I gotta ask t1mmy what happened. It looks like they didn't listen to him.

*shakes head at the bad stage list*

T1mmy's not in the BBR is he? Also, what's wrong with the stagelist?
I mean, there aren't a whole lot of stages, but this is pretty much what most tournies were running anyway.

 

[thrillagorilla]

T1mmy's not in the BBR is he? Also, what's wrong with the stagelist?
I mean, there aren't a whole lot of stages, but this is pretty much what most tournies were running anyway.

He's not in the BBR, but he IS on the rule-set committee (AiB representative I think). As to the stage list... Picto is legal, Brinstar and Rainbow are both legal on the same list. I have qualms with most stage lists in general (I'm ULTRA conservative in my lists) but having those glaring weaknesses are just not acceptable.

 

[MikeKirby]

The stagelist looks perfectly fine to me.

 

[A1lion835]

I would like to see a lot more Jungle Japes on that list, but that's my inner Kirby talking more than the fair smasher. Pretty much every fiber of my being cringes at PS2, but that's (again) mostly personal dislike.

 

[WindMajor]

For the most part, I like the list.

I'd like to see Jungle Japes in (at the very least), but the stages they have on are fine.
I like that all infinites are legal.
Don't like that there are only 5 starters.
Don't like that FD is one of those 5 starters.
I don't like LGLs at all, but I'm satisfied with what they came up (50 is going to be harder to break as TL than 35, which is way too easy to break).
All the other rules are great.

 

[Lord Viper]

New Ruleset.

Discuzayum?

Lylat Cruise a starter and Brinstar a counter pick?! LIFE... too... short. x_x ★

Well, at least Lylat Cruise is one of Kirby's best stages, though Pokemon Stadium is better for Kirby. At least starters are still good for Kirby, Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise. ★

 

[thrillagorilla]

I would like to see a lot more Jungle Japes on that list, but that's my inner Kirby talking more than the fair smasher.

I'd like to see Jungle Japes in (at the very least), but the stages they have on are fine.

Lol. Um... no.

 

[WindMajor]

Lol. Um... no.

You're right. We have to take baby steps first.

First we'll start off with Mario Bros., THEN Jungle Japes.

 

[thrillagorilla]

You're right. We have to take baby steps first.

First we'll start off with Mario Bros., THEN Jungle Japes.

I was thinking 75m.

 

[MikeKirby]

I was thinking 75m.

I'll take you on that and raise you a Port Town Aero Dive.

 

[Asdioh]

We proudly present: The Unity Ruleset!

It's pretty much exactly the same ruleset we've been seeing since the game came out. Problem??

 

[WindMajor]

YES PROBLEM!

 

[Asdioh]

I just thought it was so funny that they hyped themselves up like they're imporant :mistyface:

then they're like "here's this awesome thing! it's the same thing you're used to! woot!"

also playing sam adams and drinking brawl on wifi yeahhh

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'll take you on that and raise you a Port Town Aero Dive.

I'll match that bet with a Hanenbow and raise you Corneria.

@Asdioh: They might hype it up but in the end the TOs make the decisions. It doesn't really matter what kind of "unified rule-set" they may come up with. If it isn't good or notable, then no one will use it anyways. Considering the response this has gotten on AiB... well I don't think we will be seeing this rule-set unify the community any time soon.

 

[MK26]

>Gets grabbed
>Holds control stick down
>Places cstick between thumb and index finger, and smashes left and right rapidly
>Mashes L while doing so
>Gets out of grab at 200% in less than 1 second

Problem ICs?

===

also, the unity ruleset would be so much better with 7 starters and japes instead of picto...

 

[thrillagorilla]

>Gets grabbed
>Holds control stick down
>Places cstick between thumb and index finger, and smashes left and right rapidly
>Mashes L while doing so
>Gets out of grab at 200% in less than 1 second

Problem ICs?

===

also, the unity ruleset would be so much better with 7 starters and japes instead of picto...

Hmm... I gotta try that. o.O

I don't think it would be better with that many more starters though. In my 2+ years as a competative Smash Bros. player, I have been taken to FD twice and Yoshi's once for the first match. No one will use the extra stages as neutrals because they are NOT NEUTRAL and you will likely end up at Smashville about 75% of the time and BF the other 25%. Also, what makes Japes worth having? It is a very campy stage with no real benifit to a tournament stage list...

 

[WindMajor]

The stage makes a good counterpick, and it has no bannable qualities to it.

Plus, Toon Link is awesome at this stage.

 

[MK26]

@thrilla: ive found (at least, i havent seen this anywhere else) a more efficient way of grab breaking that doesnt require you to move your fingers off their natural positions

imagining the sticks as clocks: move the l-stick back and forth from 10:30 to 4:30 while moving the r-stick from 7:30 to 1:30
offset the movements so that the two sticks arent at the extreme positions at the same time - if they are, your total inputs are halved
find a natural rhythm and increase your speed as you go, then add in the l and r buttons, again alternating so that they arent being pressed at the same time

look at kirby's 'being grabbed' animation. getting grabbed at 100%, the fastest ive managed to get out is right before his left leg stops moving forward for the first time...which is by my rough calculation about 45 frames (3/4 of a second)
in other words, with this i can break out of an ics grab before nana can release a fully charged smash on me :D

then again kprime can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4pHZUJGG0k
which is mashing the controller about as fast as reflex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8z4O24CvI#t=06m18s

and anecdotally, i accidentally discovered that the ics can force an air release on kirby if kirby gets grabbed during his jumpsquat animation (the little dip he does before he leaves the ground for a jump)

 

[t!MmY]

I'm a member of the BBR-RC. I helped contribute to the Unity Ruleset. (@thrilla: there's no such thing as an 'AiB representative' XD).

To shed some light on the 5-stage starter:

It was agreed that most tournaments usually run 3, 5, or 7 stages for starters. We found that adding two more stages to a 5-stage starter gets practically the same results as a 5-stage starter as far as advantage\disadvantages go for characters. TOs who run 3-stage starters are almost always fine with including two more. Thus 5 is a good middle ground for both sides of the fence.

As a TO, I don't have a problem with any number of starters because they all have their benefits: 3-stages is quick for competitive play, 5-stages is fairly quick for strike outs plus gives a couple more options, 7+ is the quickest because at this point the players don't want to deal with stage strikes and just agree to BF\SV. XD

 

[MK26]

toronto tourneys have done just fine with 9 starters <_<

it goes extremely fast when the first person strikes 3, second strikes 4, and first person picks from the last 2

 

[fromundaman]

He's not in the BBR, but he IS on the rule-set committee (AiB representative I think). As to the stage list... Picto is legal, Brinstar and Rainbow are both legal on the same list. I have qualms with most stage lists in general (I'm ULTRA conservative in my lists) but having those glaring weaknesses are just not acceptable.

Ahhh.... however, that kind of doesn't answer my 2nd question.
What's wrong with those stages? Again, these are the same stages I've been seeing since this game came out.

We proudly present: The Unity Ruleset!

It's pretty much exactly the same ruleset we've been seeing since the game came out. Problem??

Glad I'm not the only one to feel this way.

I'll take you on that and raise you a Port Town Aero Dive.

I actually don't think PTAD is that bad XD

 

[MikeKirby]

Me either Fromundaman. I don't think it's bad. As long as you pay attention you should be ok. Me thinks, yes.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Ahhh.... however, that kind of doesn't answer my 2nd question.

What's wrong with those stages? Again, these are the same stages I've been seeing since this game came out.

*looks back a page*

Ah. Well, if you haven't seen the discussion on Picto, I suggest you look here. It may be the discussion for the rule-set in general, but it goes into detail about pico in a few key posts.

In breif summary, the stage has random transformations that can KILL in multiple ways without any warning. There are the spikes (side and bottom) the missiles and another one that can gimp your recovery flat out by dissallowing you from grabing the ledge. The benifits to keeping the stage on the list are...? I honestly can't think of one.

Brinstar has stage hazards that can damage and force you to stop the match briefly to fight over positioning so the stage doesn't kill you. IMO ANY stage that can kill without the opponent having to do anything is not in nature competative. The stage also doesn't add anything that less offensive stages don't already offer, making it un-necissary.

Rainbow Cruise is a bit less of an offender. Walk-offs are a BIG problem, but having a stage that caters to air based characters without destroying ground based characters ground game (only 1/3 of the stage is bad) makes it legit if you really feel you want it on your stage list. It is by no means needed though, which is why it isn't on my lists.

I actually don't think PTAD is that bad XD

I wouldn't either if the cars didn't kill and the section of the stage next to the vertical ramp didn't make it near impossible to avoid them without jumping.

 

[MK26]

thrilla, you can stand on the top platform there and avoid all the cars...

 

[thrillagorilla]

thrilla, you can stand on the top platform there and avoid all the cars...

I've been hit there before. I don't know if the game glitched or what, but the platform isn't 100% safe. Not to mention its not too much bigger than the platform in Brinstar anyways, making it dificult to continue fighting rather than playing the "don't get killed by the stage" game.

 

[fromundaman]

I've been hit there before. I don't know if the game glitched or what, but the platform isn't 100% safe. Not to mention its not too much bigger than the platform in Brinstar anyways, making it dificult to continue fighting rather than playing the "don't get killed by the stage" game.

You only get hit if your hurtbox goes below the platform (Kirby Dthrow for example auto-kills there for that reason.).

Ehhh... all the transformations on Picto are on a timer, and the only one that kills without a warning is the diagonal line.

Brinstar's lava shouldn't be killing anyone. Like ever. The lava rise is not random, it's pretty predictable, and really all it does is limit the area that you can fight in for several seconds, encouraging aggression.


As for stages that can kill without the opponent doing anything, then what about stages like Lylat, where an untimely stage shift can gimp characters for no reason?
What about YI, where an unlucky Shy Guy can gimp Ness?
PS1, where you can fall through the stage through a glitch?
Halberd's claw?
Delfino's fall through the stage glitch?

 

[thrillagorilla]

You only get hit if your hurtbox goes below the platform (Kirby Dthrow for example auto-kills there for that reason.).

For some reason, that sounds familiar, haha.

Ehhh... all the transformations on Picto are on a timer, and the only one that kills without a warning is the diagonal line.

Not true. Even with the timer, you don't know what is coming. You can still be in the wrong place at the wrong time with no way to respond. There is only one "safe" area on the entire stage, and even that has to be eyeballed. I could understand arguments for it were it on a predictable change pattern (not the timing, but the transformations themselves), but without one there is no point given that the stage doesn't add anything to the competative scene that is not already there in the form of other stages.

Brinstar's lava shouldn't be killing anyone. Like ever. The lava rise is not random, it's pretty predictable, and really all it does is limit the area that you can fight in for several seconds, encouraging aggression.

Its an alteration in the game state that is arbitrarily forced on the competetors. The timer can make it seem forgivable, but it doesn't change what it is. And it may not hapen often, but it CAN kill and it ALWAYS damages. This in and of itself should eliminate it from competative play (and yes, this includes Halberd). Finaly, it doesn't encourage agression, it encourages platform camping. XD

As for stages that can kill without the opponent doing anything, then what about stages like Lylat, where an untimely stage shift can gimp characters for no reason?

To use your own argument, the stage tilt is on a predictable timer. My regular practice partner mains Fox, and he has no trouble reading the stage making his adjustments. Nor do I. Plus, it offers an alternate stage to BF with platforms that does not damage and does not have anything else that kills it's competative viability. This stage is a great example of what should be considered as a counterpick.

What about YI, where an unlucky Shy Guy can gimp Ness?

I actually kinda agree with this statement, but if you were to ask any Ness/Lucas main if they should make it back to the stage if they had to use their up-b recovery they would likely tell you no regardless. On top of that, it is two characters compared to a cast of 39, so it is a marginal problem as opposed to a centralizing one (aka, effects 1-2 characters vs. most/all members of the cast).

On a side note this goes for Smashville's baloons too, but in that case you would be losing what is considered a starting stage, so the benifits outweigh the risks of keeping the stage in competative play.

PS1, where you can fall through the stage through a glitch?

I'm not gonna lie, this has happened to me in tourney and it was horrible. This stage has more that just the glitch problem with it too. If you want details on my thoughts I'm happy to do so, but this post is getting kinda long for my tastes, lol!

Halberd's claw?

Already addressed.

Delfino's fall through the stage glitch?

This falls into the same category as PS1's stage glitch. It is also on a stage that has other issues that I am willing to discuss further, just not in this post.

I forgot how fun it is to debate here.

 

[fromundaman]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the stages I mentioned should be banned. I'm just saying that a majority of these stages have factors like these.

And yes, Lylat's tilt is also predictable, and you can in fact get around it. I don't have much trouble on that stage with Wolf or Mario, but just pointing out the similarities.

I was saying all the transformations on Picto give an indication of what they are going to be before the hitboxes come out. That being said, I am kind of either way for Picto, because other than giving a few mid-tiers a strong-ish CP, it doesn't bring much.

Ehhh... Brinstar only encourages platform camping for a couple characters. Platform camping on that stage is actually not very effective for a majority of the cast during the lava parts. Also, most of the time when a player hits lava it is because the other player put them into a position to be hit by it. It's generally not something that just randomly happens.

This is a janky game, there's no getting around that. If you want to remove all the janky elements, then we'll end up with (to use a modified melee joke I heard a while back) no items, no planking, no camping, no tornado, all stages banned, MK only, Final Destination.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the stages I mentioned should be banned. I'm just saying that a majority of these stages have factors like these.

Too true. That is why we need to look at the benifits and weigh them against the cost. Arbitrary and/or "free" damage stages should get the boot without question imo. Everything else is debatable.

And yes, Lylat's tilt is also predictable, and you can in fact get around it. I don't have much trouble on that stage with Wolf or Mario, but just pointing out the similarities.

I know. Just sayin'.

I was saying all the transformations on Picto give an indication of what they are going to be before the hitboxes come out. That being said, I am kind of either way for Picto, because other than giving a few mid-tiers a strong-ish CP, it doesn't bring much.

If I'm not mistaken, there is only about a 3 frame buffer before the damaging sections of the stage go active. By the definition of human response time (about 10 fames) it is not possible to react to the change. This is where one could make the argument that the hazards could be avoided via prediction, were there any pattern to the stage transformations. BTW, who else other than Sonic and DK players use this stage? (keep in mind Yoshi's Island does the same thing without having NEAR the amount of issues).

Ehhh... Brinstar only encourages platform camping for a couple characters. Platform camping on that stage is actually not very effective for a majority of the cast during the lava parts. Also, most of the time when a player hits lava it is because the other player put them into a position to be hit by it. It's generally not something that just randomly happens.

Who goes to this stage except the players that main the characters that can effectively platform camp? Also, there are better stage options that don't deal damage...

This is a janky game, there's no getting around that. If you want to remove all the janky elements, then we'll end up with (to use a modified melee joke I heard a while back) no items, no planking, no camping, no tornado, all stages banned, MK only, Final Destination.

No Items: yup

No planking: This strategy has developed due to other problems in the rule-set. I haven't had a chance to have a detailed discussion with some of the rule-set experts to develop my own opinions though. I'll get back to you on this later if you'd like.

No camping: lol. No.

No tornado: lol. Again, no.

All stages banned: Wouldn't that render the game unplayable?

MK onry: wut?

Final Destination: Exactly.

...

XD

 

[fromundaman]

If I'm not mistaken, there is only about a 3 frame buffer before the damaging sections of the stage go active. By the definition of human response time (about 10 fames) it is not possible to react to the change. This is where one could make the argument that the hazards could be avoided via prediction, were there any pattern to the stage transformations. BTW, who else other than Sonic and DK players use this stage? (keep in mind Yoshi's Island does the same thing without having NEAR the amount of issues).

Actually, this stage is also really good for TL, Lucario and Kirby.
I doubt it's 3 frames though. If it is I have superhuman reaction times. The only one that might be anywhere near that would be the diagonal line and *maybe* the spikes (Not the ones on the side, the other ones). I can always deal with the other 'damaging' ones on reaction.

Who goes to this stage except the players that main the characters that can effectively platform camp? Also, there are better stage options that don't deal damage...

Well, this stage is one of the few on which Mario is viable. Also, ZSS does really well there. Kirby's not bad there. DK does good here. Ness and Lucas are amazing here.

No Items: yup

No planking: This strategy has developed due to other problems in the rule-set. I haven't had a chance to have a detailed discussion with some of the rule-set experts to develop my own opinions though. I'll get back to you on this later if you'd like.

No camping: lol. No.

No tornado: lol. Again, no.

All stages banned: Wouldn't that render the game unplayable?

MK onry: wut?

Final Destination: Exactly.

...

XD

That was a joke based on the melee "No items, no characters, no jumping, no shield, no projectiles, no wavedashing, fox only, Final Destination." joke and all its variations XD

 

[Juushichi]

God darn it from. It was no items, fox only, final destination.

If you're going to make this joke, do it right.

 

[Triple R]

God darn it from. It was no items, fox only, final destination.

If you're going to make this joke, do it right.

What he said. I'm pretty sure that was the original joke. At least I think...

 

[~Shao~]

OH SNAP

where your jokes at, fromunda?

 

[MK26]

fromundaman: picto's hazards do not become active until after the entire transformation has been drawn
on the other hand, all stage collisions become active when the transformation starts being drawn - whch means that, for a split second, there are walls active even though you cant see that theyre there

and thus you get the problem of the diagonal line - that ledge is gone as soon as the line starts being drawn, but you have no way of reacting to that ledge being gone if youre trying to recover

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXg3C9mhTkw&t=1m45s