KGD - The Kewkky Thread! - Kirby's Wasteland: Dead Social

[Asdioh]

sure, I'd like to see t1mmy's kirby :D

 

[MikeKirby]

I'm a bit color blind too D Who.

 

[A1lion835]

 

[Kewkky]

Hey guys! The BBR MU Chart is out! Opinions on how I did with Kirby's MUs? Keep in mind that I had to convince some people, and there were a lot that wouldn't budge past a certain point, I did try my best though!

And A1, that is a pretty neat shirt. I wouldn't mind wearing it at a colorblind convention! (if only they existed)

 

[Asdioh]

That. Is. Amazing.

BBR

stopped reading there

 

[A1lion835]

Hey guys! The A1 MU Chart is out! Opinions on how I did with Kirby's MUs? Keep in mind that I had to john a lot about how bad I did, and there were a lot that wouldn't listen to my best of johns, but I did john my best johns though! By the way, I did all my johning from a port-o-john!

And A1, that is a pretty arousing shirt. I wouldn't mind taking it off at your house! (If only you didn't have that restrainy-thing)

It is a pretty neat shirt. I'm not entirely sure it actually just looks like a heart to colorblind people though.

Edit: Ninja thank you to Asdioh

Edit2: lol @ the ganandorf tier

 

[MK26]

loooooool

+rep

 

[Gova]

Hey guys! The BBR MU Chart is out! Opinions on how I did with Kirby's MUs? Keep in mind that I had to convince some people, and there were a lot that wouldn't budge past a certain point, I did try my best though!

I don't understand why Snake is -2.
I don't understand why Wario is -1.
I don't understand why GnW is -2.

That's it.

 

[Kewkky]

Well Snake is -2 because we all think it's -2. Heck, Snakes ACTUALLY told me that they thought it was -1, but I was quite sure we aren't THAT lucky. :\

Wario is -1 because I couldn't get them to agree to it being even, and even though I was even pulling for a +1 at one time, remembering all those matches against Warios where I was dominating then all of a sudden I was down a stock thanks to a surprise fart, the fact that Wario has his farts ready to use at the most unexpected times (yes he has like 20 seconds of full power, but when during those 20 seconds will he use it?) convinced me to give them leeway.

G&W is -2 because that's what was generally agreed to back there. G&W's thought it was -2, non-Kirby/G&W mainers thought it was -2, G&W boards thought it was -2, so i decided that we were being a little too optimistic and I went with their rating, since I was vastly outnumbered.

Remember that when viewing MUs we're OBVIOUSLY gonna view it one way and no other way, we have opinions and ours beats other people's any day. But other people have opinions too, and they think the same way we do. If we don't agree on a matchup, and there's no room for compromise, then SOMEONE has to accept the other's MU, and it turns out in some situations I was the one giving way, and in others they gave way to my opinions.


This is the MU Chart V1.0, so everything in it is subject to change at a later date! Just reminding people is all.

 

[Gova]

I think Snake should be -1. I just recently found out that dtilt is amazing in that match up. If you space correctly dtilt clashes with his ftilt and gives you frame advantage so if you dtilt again you'll get a hit. It also hits him out of his snake slide as well. I haven't tested it lol but it was just stuff I was doing in tourney yesterday.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Silly Gova. Does our DTilt outrange Snake's UTilt? Because when you're at 90 after a minute, or 2, that's the only thing you'll wanna worry about for the next minute until you die.

 

[Kewkky]

Also, he can just walk back and throw a grenade at you/put a C4 in front of his face. Standing on the C4 is what Snake wants you to do, remember.

 

[Sage JoWii]

>_> Kewkky is right....

but he's also missing something. Sure snake's want you to stand on that C4 ;3 but it's just as good simply existing.

'Where'd that C4 go? I gotta avoid it.' - And now you're zoned.

 

[@TKbreezy]

lol d-tilt

Edit: Really kewk.....

 

[t!MmY]

-3:
I almost want to say that Climbers are -2 against Kirby and not -3, but I could see it either way (I like to think that if you apply the right strategies the match-up is only a 'medium disadvantage' but considering the difficulties of 'don't get grabbed' I totally agree with 'hard countered' as well).

-2:
Meta Knight is good at -2, though I think it's ridiculous other characters get a -3 (Ike, ROB) in comparison. It's like they're QQing about it more than taking the match-up fully into consideration.G&W could maybe move down to -1? But then again I guess that's why he's at the tail end of -2. He just doesn't seem to be as scary as he was back in 2008/2009 (actually, was he ever that scary?)

-1:
Wario's good at -1. Actually, all the -1's are good, though I could see Zero Suit Samus going to -2 in future updates (see Nick Riddle vs Chudat). She's good at -1 right now. I could see Toon Link staying at -1 but moving up in the list.

0:
I see some of these that could move to -1, specifically Diddy.

It's simply due to how much better Diddy uses the bananas. Scratch that, he uses them waaaay better. It pretty much forces Kirby to be in the air where he's much less mobile and easier to punish with a Shield. Even without any bananas at all, Diddy is much more mobile both in air and on the ground and his only real drawback is KO potential (which is where bananas come in). Considering how light Kirby is, Diddy doesn't have the usual problems getting the KO.

Falco is controversial. I think it varies on different factors, specifically the Stage, how well the Falco knows the match-up, and whether or not Kirby can get a Copy. I guess the best compromise with the Falco players is an even match-up.

Pikachu seems like he could go to a -1 as well. I think Kirby has good combos on Pika and he's light enough to get KO's easily, but Pika's speed and camp game could give him a 'small advantage'. Pika's best trait in this match-up is is off-stage which puts Kirby in the position of doing most of his fighting on-stage where Pika has the advantage. I'm thinking it's the camp-friendly stages that make this apparent, so I could see him staying at "0" until we see some good Pikachus vs some good Kirbys.

ROB should be -1.

I don't see many good Pit and Peach players in tournament. From what I know they're good at 0. Pit might be moved to Kirby's favor at +1, but again, I'd like to see some good Pits vs some good Kirbys.

DK should not be 0 at all. Not at all. How did he get there? He's definitely -1, and I'd be inclined to listen to a -2. Not only does he out-range Kirby, but he KO's Kirby at ridiculous percents, oh and he doesn't die (even from Stones and F-smashes) until Snake percentages (which is to say never). DK is also more maneuverable in the air (he also out runs Kirby on the ground). Even if a DK player doesn't SDI out of Kirby's combos, and you manage to maximize to 50% that's like a drop in the bucket for DK and at that point your combos dwindle to one or two hits from there. Gimps are the only thing that doesn't make this a completely one-sided match-up (otherwise it would be a solid -2 instead of an arguable -2), but don't think gimping DK is a walk in the park considering how fast he can make it to the ledge and how slow D-air is to come out. * -.-

Wolf and Sonic are fine, though I'm wondering how easy Sonic would find Kirby to time out? With generic percent-based tie breakers and an 8-minute timer, I could see this happening often, especially on larger stages.

I don't see why Ike is at the tail end of the 0-category when he should be a -1. Maybe it's because I've played San, because if we're not using San-level of play I could see him being where he's at because that's where I'd say all other Ikes I've played would go.

1:
These guys are little-seen and would fit the description of "slight advantage" for Kirby. Except for Fox. He could easily go to 0, but I guess that's why he's at the head of this group.

2:
There's not much to say about these characters. I don't see any of these character getting much easier/harder in the match-up.

3:
Sheik's not this bad.
Falcon is.

* Before anyone says anything about my knowledge about this match-up, I've played it plenty. I've played a number of DKs up and down the West Coast for the past 3 years of all ranges in skill and of varying degrees of Kirby match-up knowledge: CBK (Nevada), BoJ (Washington), Thrilla Gorilla (CA/OR), and Will (at MLG Columbus).

I think Snake should be -1. I just recently found out that dtilt is amazing in that match up.

D-tilt works fine when you're right next to Snake. Otherwise he's just going to hit your toes or move back and camp with grenades. Oh yeah, if the D-tilt doesn't Trip, Snake can F-tilt or U-tilt you which is a very bad exchange.

 

[@TKbreezy]

and this you come in here with another wall of basicness and super theory bros


pretty much all you said was "anyone who has a move that hits farther or faster than kirby has an advantage"

 

[WindMajor]

The positioning of characters inside their group doesn't matter. All that's important is that they're in the group with the right ratio.

That is unless Kewk specifically organized them that way. I didn't do that, nor was I told to.

 

[t!MmY]

Nice troll post TKbro. I give it 6/10.

If you really wanted to summarize my post, it would be this:
tl;dr

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Other List, for contrast:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

If the order within the groups doesn't matter, then just ignore differences within the groups.

 

[Sage JoWii]

TKO, lrn2skimOverT1mmy'sPost and not actually acknowledge them.

Also, Kirby ***** Sheik regardless of how Sheik is as a character.

 

[Kewkky]

G&W could maybe move down to -1? But then again I guess that's why he's at the tail end of -2. He just doesn't seem to be as scary as he was back in 2008/2009 (actually, was he ever that scary?)

Well the thing with some of the MUs (like the G&W one) is that when we had discrepancies that were one point away (-1 vs -2), we couldn't compromise as easily as ones with two points away (0 vs -2, that would be a -1 after some discussions generally). Needless to say, the majority of people in the discussion for G&W's MU thought it was a -2 for us vs G&W so we ended up going with that MU. I don't really mind, since G&W has never been argued to be even or on our advantage, nor has it been argued that he's one of our hardest MUs. Either -1 or -2 is fine with me!

I see some of these that could move to -1, specifically Diddy.

I was actually hoping they would concede to +1 our favor, since I don't find the MU THAT bad. Diddy actually has problems killing Kirby due to our multiple jumps, he just can't set up his kills like he can against characters that are rooted on the floor. The way he has to play this MU is pretty different than the usual opponent where it's take out two bananas>glidetoss/option towards them, since we'll be in the air most of the time actually waiting for that glidetoss/option so we can punish it. However, like you said, some Diddies were feeling that the MU was in their favor, so we ended up compromising to a 0.

Falco is controversial. I think it varies on different factors, specifically the Stage, how well the Falco knows the match-up, and whether or not Kirby can get a Copy. I guess the best compromise with the Falco players is an even match-up.

Yep, that's why I got it to a 0. Some of us believe it's in our favor, some believe it's the other's favor, it's safe to assume we feel it's the same difficulty for either side, so even it is!

Pikachu seems like he could go to a -1 as well. I think Kirby has good combos on Pika and he's light enough to get KO's easily, but Pika's speed and camp game could give him a 'small advantage'. Pika's best trait in this match-up is is off-stage which puts Kirby in the position of doing most of his fighting on-stage where Pika has the advantage. I'm thinking it's the camp-friendly stages that make this apparent, so I could see him staying at "0" until we see some good Pikachus vs some good Kirbys.

Yeah, some good Pikachu vs Kirby matches happening in tourneys regularly would actually help with future discussions.

ROB should be -1.

Another case of the one-point discrepancies, ROBs thought it was 0 while we thought it was -1, and they were QUITE adamant with their decision. So, we went with theirs.

I don't see many good Pit and Peach players in tournament. From what I know they're good at 0. Pit might be moved to Kirby's favor at +1, but again, I'd like to see some good Pits vs some good Kirbys.

A good Pit vs a good Kirby is something I haven't seen before. :/

As for Peach vs Kirby, I've played with Excel_Zero, and even though there's a difference in skill level and overall game experience between us, it goes either way. I don't practice for Brawl nor do I play too many friendlies before the tourney starts (not enough setups for friendlies, or people are playing others instead), and when he doesn't practice either I beat him QUITE soundly, yet when he does practice he beats me solidly. I'm not saying I based the placement on my experiences alone, but they definitely helped form a pretty strong opinion for me.

DK should not be 0 at all. Not at all. How did he get there? He's definitely -1, and I'd be inclined to listen to a -2. Not only does he out-range Kirby, but he KO's Kirby at ridiculous percents, oh and he doesn't die (even from Stones and F-smashes) until Snake percentages (which is to say never). DK is also more maneuverable in the air (he also out runs Kirby on the ground). Even if a DK player doesn't SDI out of Kirby's combos, and you manage to maximize to 50% that's like a drop in the bucket for DK and at that point your combos dwindle to one or two hits from there. Gimps are the only thing that doesn't make this a completely one-sided match-up (otherwise it would be a solid -2 instead of an arguable -2), but don't think gimping DK is a walk in the park considering how fast he can make it to the ledge and how slow D-air is to come out. * -.-

Would you believe that Will said the MU was in our favor? One of the DK BBR members went to the DK boards to get a collective opinion from the people for all his MUs, and from what i saw, the average of Kirby's ratios was at 0. So, we both agreed to keep it at 0.

Yeah at later %s we can't combo DK, but everytime we knock him offstage he gets into a "MUST RECoVER MODE" where he ignores everything and just recovers. If he does anything else then he runs the risk of being too low to grab the ledge, and his stock is as good as gone. Taking this into account, every hit we do that knocks DK offstage is a potential gimp since we know what he wants to do, and with enough MU experience we can tell at what point he autosnaps a ledge, what's the lowest point he can upB from to reach the ledge, if we can intercept his landing to knock him back offstage... He's one of the easier characters for us to gimp actually, and they agreed with that.

Wolf and Sonic are fine, though I'm wondering how easy Sonic would find Kirby to time out? With generic percent-based tie breakers and an 8-minute timer, I could see this happening often, especially on larger stages.

Sonic's representative told me that even though they can run away, getting in and hitting Kirby is no walk in the park. If we have an advantage we can keep it and increase it with little to no effort, while if they have an advantage we can intercept them eventually while they circle the map. Also, the Sonics initially had it as OUR advantage, +1! I convinced them that it's really an even MU, and I'm quite sure they were happy I didn't underrate Sonic like most other people do.

I don't see why Ike is at the tail end of the 0-category when he should be a -1. Maybe it's because I've played San, because if we're not using San-level of play I could see him being where he's at because that's where I'd say all other Ikes I've played would go.

It was another case of -1 vs +1, we compromised to even.

1:
These guys are little-seen and would fit the description of "slight advantage" for Kirby. Except for Fox. He could easily go to 0, but I guess that's why he's at the head of this group.

To be fair, the Fox MU is quite easy.

And in all seriousness, we couldn't come to an agreement on that MU (the Fox representative didn't want to budge from +2 THEIR advantage, while I was pulling for 0, maybe even +1 our advantage. As with other cases were agreements were impossible, we let a final panel of the best players in the BBR decide on where each character should go based on discussions made, and they put Fox as +1 for us. I'm glad they did, the Fox MU is quite easy.

Also, the matchups you listed are ordered like the tier list. :\


EDIT: Oh, and about Sheik: Sheiks in the Sheik boards, in our character discussions here in the Kirby boards, AND in the BBR all classified Kirby as a hard counter, so I went with -3.

 

[@TKbreezy]

I wasn't trolling when I posted that....as I read your post all I said was "What?" pretty much 50% of the time

your whole analysis on DK is based on what?

you don't have any solid DK's to play on the WC while Over here I have access to Will Cable and to an extent OOK and Ripple.

so as I said before while you are out here playing Super Theory bros I'll be out here Beatings DKS in this "HARD Counter" matchup"

Also its way too easy for Sonic to time you out.

I lost the first match to this sonic in GA because he timed me out and then I picked falco and double 2 stocked him

 

[Suspect]

How is mk worse for kirby than Marth?

 

[@TKbreezy]

MK is marth with 6 jumps and the sole fact that its stupid hard to recover against MK at times

and he's un gimpable.


all you have to do for marth is wait for him to mess up his spacing and you are in there.

even when MK messes up his spacing he's still relatively safe


and marth doesnt have a tornado...lol

 

[t!MmY]

Well the thing with some of the MUs (like the G&W one) is that when we had discrepancies that were one point away (-1 vs -2), we couldn't compromise as easily as ones with two points away (0 vs -2, that would be a -1 after some discussions generally).

Yeah, I can understand how close calls could go either way so a compromise would have to settle. A lot of the time it doesn't matter too much, as in the case of G&W and I think that if they were organized to reflect this within the groups it would shed a lot more light on the situation.

Diddy actually has problems killing Kirby due to our multiple jumps, he just can't set up his kills like he can against characters that are rooted on the floor.

Actually, it's more accurate to say that Diddy cannot set up his strongest KO options against airborne opponents. He can still use U-tilt and U-air on opponents in the air to get the KO at higher percents, and since Kirby is both light and dies vertically easily this means it's not even much of a problem. Either way, Diddy has an easy time putting safe damage on Kirby.

When I was playing against Gnes he said that the match-up was especially easy for Diddy since both Kirby's air game and ground game gets shut down when Diddy plays safe with Shields and bananas. In the matches with Gnes vs Chudat at APEX you'll see that the game starts off sort of evenish, but Gnes keeps patient and safe and has a solid win.

I have one more thing to say on this match-up though: Kirby can do really nasty things to Diddy when he gets him off stage.

I gotta go now, but this discussion is very throught-provoking so I'll make sure to touch on the rest of the match-ups when I get back.

 

[Tiersie]

My God Timmy, if you can't predict a DK recovering you should find a way to warp back to 2008. That also explains why you are so stupid with the falco MU.

 

[Kewkky]

Actually, it's more accurate to say that Diddy cannot set up his strongest KO options against airborne opponents. He can still use U-tilt and U-air on opponents in the air to get the KO at higher percents, and since Kirby is both light and dies vertically easily this means it's not even much of a problem. Either way, Diddy has an easy time putting safe damage on Kirby.

Well, since he has no setups for his utilt and weaker uair, I'm quite sure that it would be easy making sure to stay out of his utilt zone. Whenever I play against Diddies and am at high %s while on the ground, and Diddy just missed while throwing his bananas/I powershielded them/they bounced off of my full shield, I stay in my shield until he does anything, then retreat. Even if he grabs me and fthrows/bthrows me, I'll be happy because it wasn't a stock gone like how it would be against some other grounded character who has no option but to be on the floor all the time. Utilt gets me sometimes, but whenever it does it really is my own fault for flying closer to him than I should, or trying some unsafe jumping option in case he decides to drop his shield, but he doesn't and just utilts me OoS.

I have one more thing to say on this match-up though: Kirby can do really nasty things to Diddy when he gets him off stage.

Even our FAIR gimps him if he upB's and we predict it! With enough experience I'm quite sure almost no Diddy (sans the top of the top) should be coming back on-stage because you ca go for their safest recovery routes and gimp them with a single dair poke. It's not easy, but it's also one of the easier characters to gimp out there.

 

[Suspect]

im so tired of the "mk is just marth with extra jumps herr derr"

 

[@TKbreezy]

well I mean you can get mad at it or just accept it as being true

MK has the better tools to destroy kirby than marth does plan and simple.

 

[Suspect]

no just your kirby

 

[@TKbreezy]

lol OK personal attacks when someone tries to answer your question...that always works

 

[Suspect]

not really a personal attack.

 

[Triple R]

On going to go on the record and say I actually agree with what T!mmy has been posting today so far. I actually agree with the matchup chart he posted more than the other one. The only difference I think can think of is moving DK back to even.

 

[Sage JoWii]

RRR, you fool. If you agree w/ T1mmy, you do that **** in private. It's like wiping your *** and thanking the napkin; we'd just rather not hear abt it.

And to the shock and dismay of all- I agree with T1mmy....except for DK/Wario not being AT LEAST even, the spacies and ike all (possibly except Falco) not being AT LEAST 1, sheik not being a 3 and Luigi being a 1 and not a 0. (so I'm agreeing majority-wise, but you can see that I can never ACTUALLY totally agree w/ anything he says)

 

[Kewkky]

Well that's what Kirbies think the MUs are, but you guys are forgetting that the other characters don't view the MUs exactly like we do. We can't have uneven MUs (+2 in our opinion, but +1 in theirs), so we HAVE to compromise. Not all numbers can be exactly what we think they are. :/

 

[Sage JoWii]

Kewkky, shaddup. This is the Kapby GENERAL disKapsion; not the BBR MU Chart thread. There aren't any BPC_s, Ripples, etc. that you have to Kapvince of anything. We all know already. We see the lines that Kaptain the idea. We see it's parameters. We know what it stands for.

Look, I think it's about time we Kapture Kewk, RESTS (Twink), and TangentWarrior (Fromunda) for an intervention. I think we Kapvince them that even though they have **** written on their foreheads, they don't have to have their heads up their *****. RedName ***s. My grandma's nowhere near as bad as you guys and she tells me Kapstantly to put my jacket on otherwise I'll Kaptch a cold.

Constant reminding, warning spamming, infract whoring, redNamed power-fueled, Kap Calling mutha ****ers!

Tl;dr- We'll Kapp the Kapversation Kapletely on-Kapic

 

[Kewkky]

Kaptcha.

Anyway, I know you want to be one point away from being banned like last time, so ehh, I guess I'll help you out. :|

 

[Sage JoWii]

That's not true at all but whatever; jerk.

 

[stingers]

man what ROBs thought it was 0? its -1 imo

 

[Kewkky]

man what ROBs thought it was 0? its -1 imo

MrEric said it was 0. I wasn't the one in charge of ROB's MUs so I dunno if they contacted the proper people or not. I know they should've contacted you though, that's one thing wrong with how they did ROB's MUs.

Also, there were +1's, 0's and one -1 (I'll hold my opinion since I don't know if the person wants to debate or not, but you can ask in the MU Chart thread just in case the ROB mainer wants to come forward). Averaged out it ended up being 0, so they stuck to it.

 

[t!MmY]

Okay I'm back. After reading through your post a second time to get back into the convo, Kewk, I think you gave a lot of good information. For most of the things that seemed questionable I think it's just due to compromises and such. I mean, this is just the preliminary work on the match-ups so they just needed something to get out there.

There were just a couple things I should comment on.

Would you believe that Will said the MU was in our favor?

Yes. I could totally see him saying that. XD
Actually, I've had all kinds of mains tell me all kinds of match-up ratings (I think the most memorable one for me was how Kirby has a solid advantage on Meta Knight). I think a lot of this is simply due to how little most people know about Kirby as a character.

I'm completely open to opinions (it helps me see things from other points of view), and this is why I'm completely honest with my own views; it really helps to get discussions going and pushes the progress of match-up. I may come across as eccentric or whatever (*glances at previous posts*) but that's exactly the kind of player every character needs to get things going.

(the Fox representative didn't want to budge from +2 THEIR advantage, while I was pulling for 0, maybe even +1 our advantage.

This is funny. Fox players always see everything in their favor (with the exception of maybe Pikachu/ZSS/Shiek, lol). What makes it even more funny is how 90% of them don't SDI out of Kirby's U-air.

Sheiks in the Sheik boards, in our character discussions here in the Kirby boards, AND in the BBR all classified Kirby as a hard counter, so I went with -3.

Well, if they're for a -3, all the better for us Kirby players. XD
I really can't argue against that since there's a great lack of tournament data for this match-up. Because, you know, there are only about two or three Sheik mains who go to tournaments... I think.