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Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

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x After Dawn x

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hey guys, 1 person (armada) can sweep almost any melee player using peach

let's make peach top tier.

seriously, that is what most people sound like when they try to reason this out. only difference is that there's 2 top jiggs players instead of 1, but one of them can sweep nearly anybody with a bunch of other characters anyway, so he doesn't even count.
 

theunabletable

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hey guys, 1 person (armada) can sweep almost any melee player using peach
Can't sweep Mango's Puff, though.
seriously, that is what most people sound like when they try to reason this out. only difference is that there's 2 top jiggs players instead of 1, but one of them can sweep nearly anybody with a bunch of other characters anyway, so he doesn't even count.
Mango can't beat Hbox's Puff with anyone other than Puff (as shown at Pound 4).
 

Mew2King

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Are you guys stupid? I said I DON'T want her banned. Banning characters is unfair to the people that play them (esp when they only play 1 character and would have to be set back 2 years or so for that happening), I'm just saying there's no reason for me to travel anymore if MK gets banned because I'm really poor (contrary to popular belief I am unfortunately not lying though) and going to big tourneys would hardly help me if it's ONLY for Melee since Melee is no longer reliable income.
 

Problem2

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ugh... this thread gets me a headache. @__@

The original question is this thread, 'Does Jiggs deserve to be top tier?', I would say yes. In fact, I think Marth, Fox, Sheik, Falco, Jiggs, and mmmaybe falcon are interchangable. The argument over best character in the game for a long time has always been based on who is currently champion, and maybe that's our problem.

Now for the topic that has evolved in this thread; is Jiggs the best character in the game?

Here's a question for you all. Does everybody play at their best when they only use the best character in the game? The answer is no, not everyone is best with the top tier character. Some players find that other characters allow them to fully exploit their play style. So how is it so hard to believe that Mango had to resort to Jigglypuff to beat HungryBox because Jiggs is his best character?

Let's create a hypothetical situation using the logic that everyone does better with the best character, and that jiggs IS that best character because that is what you are arguing. If M2k or Armada switched to jiggs and really studied the match up, you all think that they would be able to perform better versus Mango and Hbox?

EDIT: Hey Mew2king. Since you're currently active in this thread. Do you think that you might do better if you picked up jiggs?
 

john!

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Let's create a hypothetical situation using the logic that everyone does better with the best character, and that jiggs IS that best character because that is what you are arguing. If M2k or Armada switched to jiggs and really studied the match up, you all think that they would be able to perform better versus Mango and Hbox?
I'd say that people have "inherent traits" that make them better at one character than another... e.g. people with good muscle memory will tend to play Fox or Falco, people with good spacial perception will play Marth or Puff, people with good reaction time will play Falcon or Sheik, etc. Obviously this is a huge generalization, but my point is that certain people will be better at certain characters by their very nature. The reason I (and many others) picked my main(s) is because they just "felt right"...

This might be a topic for another thread but w/e.
 

Mew2King

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I don't like using jiggs she's not fun. The main reason I don't want to though is because I'm already so good with Marth, Sheik, and Fox, that it would probably just make me do worse if I tried to main her or counterpick with her. Despite this, I still know a ton about the character and do things other Jiggs don't do (like down throw follow ups and better up throw combos etc.) and still stand by the opinion that she's the most practical character to use to win big tourneys in todays metagame aka making her the best. Everyone knows Fox is best in theory too bad no one's that good or consistent and I doubt ever will be I don't count theory. I think Falco's about as good as Fox overall too just not vs Jiggs head to head.
 

Animal

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I don't like using jiggs she's not fun. The main reason I don't want to though is because I'm already so good with Marth, Sheik, and Fox, that it would probably just make me do worse if I tried to main her or counterpick with her. Despite this, I still know a ton about the character and do things other Jiggs don't do (like down throw follow ups and better up throw combos etc.) and still stand by the opinion that she's the most practical character to use to win big tourneys in todays metagame aka making her the best. Everyone knows Fox is best in theory too bad no one's that good or consistent and I doubt ever will be I don't count theory. I think Falco's about as good as Fox overall too just not vs Jiggs head to head.
i couldnt agree more, we just need time to fully figure out the matchup. and i watched your matches on livestream. You had hungrybox and Armada got lucky as ****. when i saw you play armada i saw the m2k in his prime. Stick with melee, you can be on top.
 

Rubyiris

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no its not just that.

the pro-jiggs top tier group argues a lot of points and big walls of text while the anti-jiggs top tier group says "but lol, she's light".
the pro-jigs players write walls of text about how she punishes approaches, and cite tournament results. That's pretty much all they're talking about.

The puff mains, myself, and wobbles write walls of text about how limited she is on approach, how she's forced to approach faster characters, and how, yeah, she's light.

Puff, Peach, Ganon, etc are all doing extremely well in tournament because people approach them like morons and get their **** wrecked, and no, nobody has attempted to not approach said characters. Even M2K and Jman who have pretty campy foxes still approach far too often. M2K also occasionally goes for some high risk plays and gets punished for it when he could easily have taken the low risk route and conserved his stocks.

Also something that people need to realize: Player skill, and knowledge of the game do not go hand in hand. I am absolutely garbage, but that doesn't change the fact that I understand the game fairly well. Probably more than the majority of the community.
 

Mew2King

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me vs armada was not the me in my prime it was once again me doing good then choking and noobing it up last stock cuz i got nervous that's why this game depresses me I always do that **** cuz i suck

also fox needs to approach when he runs out of room people. If Jiggs just guesses ONCE that fox will stand in place at the edge shooting lasers (or SHLing in place) and Jiggs commits to placing a Bair there then what happens is the Fox gets off stages it is GAME OVER. So in that time period, to prevent that from happening, Fox has to approach where Jiggs can use priority moves to beat it. It's not as simple as you all like to write it out as. From experience, it is exactly as I just said (unfortunately)
 

x After Dawn x

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Go watch Pound 4 videos.

Mango's Fox got ***** by HBox.
so? mango's fox probably wasn't doing well that day, that doesn't mean anything considering his fox beat him a month earlier.

me vs armada was not the me in my prime it was once again me doing good then choking and noobing it up last stock cuz i got nervous that's why this game depresses me I always do that **** cuz i suck

also fox needs to approach when he runs out of room people. If Jiggs just guesses ONCE that fox will stand in place at the edge shooting lasers (or SHLing in place) and Jiggs commits to placing a Bair there then what happens is the Fox gets off stages it is GAME OVER. So in that time period, to prevent that from happening, Fox has to approach where Jiggs can use priority moves to beat it. It's not as simple as you all like to write it out as. From experience, it is exactly as I just said (unfortunately)
m2k you're too good, you just gotta learn to be a little more consistent. what I didn't understand is why you didn't switch to marth when armada cp'd battlefield. and you definitely had that first match, peach just has a gay way of eating jumps and you just gotta avoid it, I suppose
 

Mew2King

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idk i was like 50/50 on going marth or fox so i looked over and hbox and jman both said to go fox so i tried it *shrug* idk who i'd be better with. I play my marth sheik and fox at like the same exact level it just depends the matchup I'm doing for who I want. vs Peach idk who to use though. I think I can play a lot better than I did though but I'm gonna take a break from smash until next big tourney when I'll practice again a bit before it hopefully my controller is still good. Right now my controller is not great but it's better than most maybe like 8/10 or something idk I'm really picky with that stuff it can affect me a lot though.
 

n1000

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If m2k sucks then I really don't know what I am.

Also...this is probably not the right topic but I guess it's well enough derailed...

Mango consistently uthrow uaired HB at winterfest but Jman couldn't do the same to Mango...was Jman doing it wrong or does Mango have hacker DI?
 

TL?

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I really have trouble seeing jiggs being better than characters like fox or marth. A character like fox just has so much going for him. Good kill moves, good combos, good projectile, very fast. Marth has ridiculous attack range, speed, and grab range.
 

Mew2King

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^ combine that with her ******** horizontal aerial moving speed and it's extremely super safe to spam

btw marth sucks. He's so overrated. Even at like MLG Vegas at the end of 2006 I 4 stocked Azen in 2 marth dittos and 3 stocked Ken twice at that point (then twice again later at OC3). Marth is not as good as spacies, jiggs, or sheik, ESPECIALLY if you consider he gets counterpick *****. I can't believe ANYONE thinks that still.
 

Raistlin

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If m2k sucks then I really don't know what I am.

Also...this is probably not the right topic but I guess it's well enough derailed...

Mango consistently uthrow uaired HB at winterfest but Jman couldn't do the same to Mango...was Jman doing it wrong or does Mango have hacker DI?
You can DI the throw, and if you don't do that, if you smash DI the first hit of the upair, you avoid the second hit, so he probably just did one of those two things while Hbox didn't. If you miss the DI on the throw you are pretty ****ed, it's hard to get that smash DI.
 

theunabletable

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me vs armada was not the me in my prime it was once again me doing good then choking and noobing it up last stock cuz i got nervous that's why this game depresses me I always do that **** cuz i suck
You're like my favorite Melee player, you don't suck :p
so? mango's fox probably wasn't doing well that day, that doesn't mean anything considering his fox beat him a month earlier.
Okay fair enough. When the stars align Mango plays better than Hbox with Fox.
Mango consistently uthrow uaired HB at winterfest but Jman couldn't do the same to Mango...was Jman doing it wrong or does Mango have hacker DI?
Mango SDIs out of the uthrow UAir.
You can DI the throw, and if you don't do that, if you smash DI the first hit of the upair, you avoid the second hit, so he probably just did one of those two things while Hbox didn't. If you miss the DI on the throw you are pretty ****ed, it's hard to ge that smash DI.
Wait you can DI the just the Uthrow so Fox can't even hit you at all with UAir? Huh I always thought Fox had a guarantee'd UAir after the Uthrow on Jiggs at kill percentage (well other than the fact that the UAir can be SDI'd.)...
 

john!

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^ combine that with her ******** horizontal aerial moving speed and it's extremely super safe to spam

btw marth sucks. He's so overrated. Even at like MLG Vegas at the end of 2006 I 4 stocked Azen in 2 marth dittos and 3 stocked Ken twice at that point (then twice again later at OC3). Marth is not as good as spacies, jiggs, or sheik, ESPECIALLY if you consider he gets counterpick *****. I can't believe ANYONE thinks that still.
Don't even get me started on Marth's hitboxes... :p

Marth ruled the world for like 6 years, he's an amazing character imo.

If you played this safely again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0

and didn't get rested, then I can see the Puff matchup being a lot easier.
 

Raistlin

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Wait you can DI the just the Uthrow so Fox can't even hit you at all with UAir? Huh I always thought Fox had a guarantee'd UAir after the Uthrow on Jiggs at kill percentage (well other than the fact that the UAir can be SDI'd.)...
He can more easily chase forward DI, but if you DI behind him it's like impossible to catch her before the hitstun wears off.
 

Mew2King

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jiggs beats marth

marths best assets are combos and gimps. He can't do that on puff, but puff still has many opportunities to get easy up hit to rests or edge hog rests on marth. Bair is better than Fair because even though Fair will hit slightly more, the Bair follow ups are significantly better and getting positional advantage is easy and not scary at all for the jiggs while it is for the marth.
 

Animal

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nahh fox beats jiggz, just not nearly as bad as he use 2. the gaps on alot of matchups have closed with this new metagame.
 

john!

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jiggs beats marth

marths best assets are combos and gimps. He can't do that on puff, but puff still has many opportunities to get easy up hit to rests or edge hog rests on marth. Bair is better than Fair because even though Fair will hit slightly more, the Bair follow ups are significantly better and getting positional advantage is easy and not scary at all for the jiggs while it is for the marth.
I think you're only looking at it from your point of view... imagine being Puff in that matchup... it's SO HARD to get hits in on a Marth that plays like that. If you connect with a back air it's because Marth screwed up. Then there's always the impending threat of getting tippered and dying at 70, not to mention DI'ing the wrong way on Marth's throw mixups (free tipper because you usually can't tech). Also Puff cannot edgeguard Marth (you got barely edgeguarded once because you tried to spike offstage), and that was on Mango's best stage. I've always taken that video to be the "textbook" on why Marth is Puff's worst matchup, unless he screws up. He has a solid range advantage on Puff. But that's just a matter of practice and learning the matchup. IDK why you always go Fox on Puff players, but then again I'm not M2K...
 

x After Dawn x

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I have played both sides of the puff matchup and it's not hard at all for jigglypuff to get in on marth. she's a thousand times more flexible and viable when she's moving in, and she literally just has to come close to marth and kinda sit there until marth attacks, leaving him open for a bair, fair, and anything that follows up on it. vs a smart jiggs with marth, she's not going to run into marth's sword and she WILL wait until there's an opening, which really isn't as hard as it sounds, and the only hits marth will get off will be a random fair here and there because of seriously outpredicting the jiggs player's movements or just as a mistake by jiggs...unfortunately, it really doesn't lead up on anything, so it doesn't matter. when jiggs gets into marth, she has plenty of options and can combo him. as well, when marth is off the edge, jiggs edgeguards him way better than any other character and edgeguarding jiggs is a pain with marth because you don't want to risk going off and accidentally getting pounded, losing a stock. and if marth tries approaching jiggs to try and stop her from sitting there and waiting, she always seems to avoid it and punish marth for doing so, whereas jiggs really isn't punished by approaching marth as much.

it's really not a pretty matchup for marth. it would seem like a matchup that marth dominates in theory simply because marth's spacing is theoretically superior with his range, but in practice, the matchup is roughly even as jiggs is much more flexible and navigates around with much more control than marth.

and as m2k has mentioned before, marth needs some critical elements of his game to win, them being grabs, gimps, early percent combos, and edgeguards. marth can't gimp jiggs, can't edgeguard her, can't combo her, and normally doesn't (and shouldn't be) getting grabs off her, so I don't know why people think a sword is all marth needs to outspace jiggs when jiggs has superior spacing to any other character.
 

n1000

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it doesn't kill Jiggs if she's in the air and there are like a total of a hundred frames in any match against a good jiggs where she's on the ground next to you..if only Roy had a grab combo into the good reverse up-b...
 

Zatchiel

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Jiggz is too much for anyone in the game exept for marth and ics, in any other match, the
opponent gets pwned, but jiggz is too good of a player overall.....
 

Pi

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it's only hard for jiggs to get in on marth in theory lol

1 missed move and jiggs is free to come in for something if she's spaced properly

if you wanna take the best X player, and put him against the best Jiggs player, the best X player is going to need to play smarter than the jiggs player in order to win. The amount more depends on who the X is, but there is no matchup in the game that you can sandbag win against a good jiggs.
 

Zatchiel

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Beginning on jiggz metagame states that jigglypuff is the only person in THE GAME
With infinite horizontal recovery, and she has the highest vertical in the game too.
she should be much higher tier, she has infinite stall....
 

Zephynazo

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@ Mew2King. Armada was just as nervous as you were when u fought him at Pound 4.

I even think he played worse than he usually does, oh well, he still won.

Anyway, i agree with M2K with Marth being overrated. Fox, Falco and Sheik is better. Jiggs, Peach and CF is worse.
 

Zatchiel

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Why? Jiggz is too powerful to not be higher tier, but her weight does make her 2 open for near any smash attack ko at 90 or above, but why must her rest attack be held off? its setups are in the hundreds, but many are never used. can somebody plz explain why?
 
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