• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

I've Been Thinking

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,244
Location
NC
I've been thinking...

Very, very few smashers really understand the fundamentals of the Smash Brothers family of games. Sure, vast swaths of text are spouted nonstop from Smashboards' eternal depths about tactics and advanced techniques, but these are not fundamentals. They are tools which are useless without fundamentals. If you don't know what a hammer is good for, why even know how to swing it? I've felt a strong aversion to this obsession with finding advanced techs and little shenanigans like they're actually going to change what everyone is fundamentally doing in the game for a long time, but I never really understood why until recently. This is because in a way I had bought into the notion that ATs and situational tactics were what the game was all about. It wasn't stupidity so much as ignorance. I didn't know any better, and that wasn't really my fault.

The foolhardy focus on ATs and clever tactics is terrifyingly pervasive in the Smash Brothers tournament community. I have been a part of this community for nearly four years, and I didn't even realize I didn't know the fundamentals of Smash until I started playing other fighting games, like Guilty Gear, BlazBlue and Street Fighter. I didn't realize it was a problem until I started following and commenting on TheBuzzSaw's project, Zero2D. There wasn't really anyone in the community talking about what the fundamentals of Smash are. Plenty mentioned their existence, but they were all tight-lipped as to what the fundamentals were. Maybe they knew these basic truths intrinsically, but couldn't put them into words (I suspect most of the best fall under this heading). Maybe they assumed that everyone understood these basic facts, and didn't feel the need to elucidate. Maybe they were big jerkwads and didn't want to talk to the rest of us about it, because they wouldn't have that advantage. I don't know, and I don't particularly care. The fact is, I learned about Smash Brothers in a poisonous environment that taught me, effectively, nothing about the game. I was swinging a hammer at air.

Like I said earlier, I didn't realize I didn't know what I was doing until I started playing, and reading about, other 2D fighting games with well-established communities and metagames. Oddly enough, it wasn't even the communities that I learned the game fundamentals from; it was the games themselves. The fundamentals of these games are just that in those communities: fundamentals. People talk about the game in terms of these fundamentals. I couldn't make heads or tails of what they were saying until I actually played the games. That's when I realized what an overhead was, what a wake up was. Any time someone said something along the lines of, "I have found this technique that allows you to follow up with either an anti-air or a command grab," it was like a hammer that came with a little drawing of someone using it to nail two planks of wood together. I began to realize that I didn't have an instruction manual like that for Smash. Not even the How to Play video gave a whole lot of insight into this. The gist is, these games have fundamental rock-paper-scissors relationships between various aspects that underpin every decision the player makes.

I'm not going to get into the entire RPS system of your standard 2D fighter here. I've tried doing a flowchart just of move classes, and it was a veritable Gordian Knot, and this was without taking into account cross-ups, zoning, option-selects and any number of other fundamental system functions. Let's just look at the relationship between two options: blocking low and the overhead. Blocking low is typically a good decision when under pressure in a lot of fighting games, at least BlazBlue and Guilty Gear, my knowledge of SF being more nebulous, but considering how often I see players blocking low in that game, I'm assuming it's no bad idea. Anyway, Blocking low is strong because most quick attacks are either lows or mediums. Aerials beat low blocks, but since most anti-airs (which beat aerials) are fairly quick, lead to a lot of damage, and involve the crouching motion in some way, aerials usually aren't a great decision. Usually. Another way to beat the low block is with an overhead. Overheads typically aren't super-fast, but they're faster than most aerial options, and aren't any more weak to anti-airs than any other ground option, and they usually lead to combos as well. An overhead's biggest weakness is blocking high. Usually, overheads are difficult to follow up on block, so a successfully blocked overhead is usually a good thing for the blocker. Since they're pretty good for starting combos, but fairly easy to punish, this presents the player with a trade-off. Trade-offs like this ramify throughout the system, and they convolve with other mix-ups and trade-offs. Any competent player of a 2D fighter can tell you about this, even when they play the game casually. But try asking anyone on Smashboards about the analogue in Smash. Most wouldn't know. Some would even get a haughty tone and tell you that Smash is too complex to be boiled down to such simple concepts.

If only they knew. Let's look at an analogue to the above relationship in the Smash system. Namely, shielding and grabbing. Shielding is, overall, pretty powerful in Smash. It deflects almost any attack, and gives ample opportunity for counterattacks. The only actual attack it does not beat is a well-angled and well-spaced shield-poke, but those are difficult to attain, and the rewards are frequently tepid. But what does beat shield, is grabbing. Grabs, like overheads, are typically slower than normal attacks, but fast enough that they're difficult to avoid if you're not paying attention. Furthermore, they typically have a very high reward. On the flipside, grabs are beaten pretty solidly by dodging. But if the dodge is baited and punished, then it doesn't work out so well. Bam. That's a mix-up.

And now here's where you begin to look stupid for thinking Smash is "too complex" for one of those really simple rock-paper-scissors systems. Actually, it's not. The move class flowchart for smash only has about five nodes, some of which don't even really beat each other outright. If breaking even doesn't count, there are eight relationships that actually matter. Compare this to the ten or so nodes of most fighters, with nearly twenty relevant relationships between them, and you can see that Smash is really quite simple when you break it down. I've included this flow-chart below.



Now I tasted some salt earlier. I heard a few voices cry, "But ph00tbag! Everyone knows a grab beats a shield!" Well, yes, they do, but that goes right back to the whole hammer thing, although the analogy is less clean. Essentially, most smashers have the knowledge of these relationships, but they are either ignorant of, or don't care about, their significance. What's significant, is that this is one of the flow charts every player needs to have in their head when playing the game, with frequency tables for everything, and statistical analyses to make sure their findings are significant. The relative strengths and weaknesses of each option needs to be weighed. Two PhD dissertations need to be written out for any given match, one for what's going on in each player's head. If you aren't doing this, even subconsciously, while you play, you are playing the game wrong. Bad competitive players just play safe and don't think about these options, but are able to win a couple matches because they're patient. Terrible competitive players aren't even patient. Neither of these types wins tournaments. So you see, even this knowledge is a tool, and many smashers know the knowledge, but they don't know why that's important, so even if they use the tool, it's like using a hammer to make a moulding. The results aren't pretty.

Ok, so I may have gone a tad overboard with my initial stipulation. It's not so much that no one knows the fundamental system of smash. Get enough experience with the game, and most of the revelations there aren't so revelatory, after all. But players of other fighter communities still get something that a lot of smashers just don't get. They actually worry about their game's systems while playing, even the terrible players. They know that thinking about this is the key to victory. And if they lose, it's because they're just not good enough to extrapolate consistent reads from their opponent. But a good many smashers don't seem to care about that. That needs to change. There need to be more threads that actually lay out plainly what beats what, in a general sense, for a given system, and why the relationship in that system is important. This community needs to be more concerned with what the fundamentals of Smash entail. Hopefully, this essay can cause that change. Hopefully, Smashboards can finally start talking about using those hammers to drive some nails.

Cross-posted in the Brawl Boards.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
came here for a good laugh (as most therads with this sort of title are good for), and was very impressed. I'm hesitant to fully endorse this, though, because I think most players think about this more than you are giving them credit for.

I have some ideas about your post but I'm not going to post them because I will inevitably be flamed.... i hope this starts an interesting discussion though.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
didn't read it all, was kinda hoping for "no1 gets the fundamentals, so here's melee explained in a paragraph" but it was still an impressive read.

I think the reason people take fundamentals better in other fighters is simply because the game is meant to be put in that sense(learning the fundamentals). Melee is glitch based and sooooooo far away from what it was meant to be, so we sort of have to figure out/make(?) the fundamentals ourselves (to what it can be best), but it's very difficult to explain the concept of melee to someone without having years of experience...so pretty much people learn techskill and apply common sense in a fighter to their mindset, with of course researching what does/doesn't work.

Games like SF and all the other versus games are meant to be competitive, glitches will be found but in the end the devlopers try and balance out certain things and make things work the way they do to make the better player win. In melee i think this concept is still much more difficult than any other 2d fighter.
 

Rain(ame)

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
2,129
Location
I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
Since I actually took the time to read this, I guess that I can post. Tbh...I really don't feel like writing an essay like you did....or trying to compress ideas, sorry. (it will be a wall of text.)

This is where Smash, and traditional 2D fighters differ in a a major aspect.

Smash is a party game. Yes, it can be considered to be a fighting game, granted, but it's a party game. If you read M2K's thread about the game. That gives you information that explains the mechanics behind the simple fundamentals. This has been around for 7 years, now. Grabs have some outrageous priority.

Frame data is not readily accessible like it is in regular fighting games. We actually had to do it ourselves. (Hence why it was never fully completed.) When we want stuff like this, we have to test it out, and discuss it. Does Move A just simply beat out Move B? 100% of the time?

The overall problem: Due to Smash not initially being intended for the way we play, (With all the crazy ATs and Tech skill) we simply don't have this solid data all in one place. Not to mention...most people come in thinking they have the basic fundamentals of the game down. (In essence...you probably should, unless you've NEVER played the game before.)

In any fighting game....these are the most basic fundamentals: "You know how to move, defend, and attack."


In any fighting game, once you learn these, the rest is through common sense, and the will to learn. If you watch the average player....they just want to know how to attack and defend. The majority just care about attacking. It's not until they get frustrated do they ask how to defend. Trust me, most don't care to know that in the average fighting game Jab > grab > block > jab.

Streetfighter, Blaz, Guilty, Melty, etc. go the extra mile to give players the data in order to make the rest out for themselves. I have to say this though....the problem with our fighting game community in general is that we're too concerned with every little nuance of the game.

What I can't stand hearing is: "It's +3 on block WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING!?" Let's get this straight...if you're getting hit by it, then that means you're doing something wrong, or they're just doing something right. Frame data is there as a tool, not a tome of righteousness. This is why people get frustrated with Smash and look down on us. We are not frame wh0res like most fighting game communities.

This hurts and helps on both ends. People who play traditional fighters can't get a hold on Smash (in general) or feel just because they've learned the AT's they've gotten good at the game. Smash players, on the other hand, don't get that basis that you should have when it comes to fighting games in general. Smashers who only really know smash as their competitive fighter, don't appreciate the freedom they possess when it comes to the game. Whereas someone who plays Street Fighter for example can't always grasp the freedom, and gets frustrated.- This comes from observation and questioning, by the way.

It's why fighting game communities clash. Games that have more freedom are often scorned by the people who play games with more restriction. This is vice-versa as well.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
but puff's bair isn't beaten by sheild. nor pichu's nair when spaced in fact they are normally punished for sheilding.


no the thing is everything in some case has a counter. if you sheild puff's bairs you can't really punish it as most people what's fox going to do about a spaced bair? they di back and jump into another bair nothing but maybe lasers can count as beating but soon if you keep that up you're sheild will easily get sheild stabed and you are punished for following this tactic.

As far as I know most fighting games lack as solid of a retreating game or as much control in movement. which can make it so spacing and knowing when to trade hits break that flowchart a lot player one uses a spaced fairit can be beaten by CCing, DD away to grab or other fastish move or a projectile even a sheild but otherall that would limit your options. get f***ed up roy. But if he doesn't fair and falls back a little he could easily grab you.

OK let's take bushido blade one of my favorite fighting game in low stance with the saber as blue guy in suit he is a fast target with weak block and no projectiles(only in game) so he'll be in your face basically DDing trying to bait you or srace you into attacking but if you don't i'll weave in and out a little and squeeze into attack if I double triangle and you block I can easily lock you in something most people can't do your options are to roll or not roll when you block and it's the quickest move in the game by farand becauuse he hits so light there is very little lag but only don't have enough time to counter attack his 2nd hit in his combo.

If you're hit there's a solid chance you'll be heavily wounded or killed something you can't risk because if he wounds you he'll have an even easily time locking you in. If you roll his 2nd hit will still hit you but only your weapon so you'll be in so much stun your only option will be to block again.You may not be able to attack but you can really fast >> back and try to make him wiff it but he can use a different move to reach you if he sees you use it but that move lags if they block. This is a great with lagless blocks or lblocks with insane lag there are no grabs. there are counters to blocks, high attacks and long combos and trying to spam block like waiting half a sec. then attacking. The only balnce problems are the stages. Because platform you can't reach if you break your legs and some walls are to safe.

run camping is annoying but hardly works. however it should be said it has no solidly tested metagame other than by me so yeah block pressure and combo stops and starts is as far it goes. love that. but spacing makes some things counter things they shouldn't. How I win as pichu sometimes.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
Good post rain. makes alot of sense.

also, something as simple as techrolls, or rolling in general, definitely makes a big gap of difference in fighters. (which makes for more reads)
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
simplified, People focus to much on At's. I realized this years ago. The real challenge of getting good starts after you realize this.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
movement/spacing/stage conrol are much more important. in smash take Mh all of his moves are instopable and no matter what you do he beats your grabs/attacks/sheild and waiting. spacing/stage control and movemnt beat him easily.

movement/spacing >the rock paper siscors game. pichu's nair think of just SHFFL nair no movement.if loses to basically everything. acts only as fast sheild punishment.

with movement/spacing it beats in all truth EVERYTHING seriously it's impossible to beat with good spacing and if youfind a way geuss what? SHFF 2nd jump back jolt.

and if that is howhow beaten solidly then DD d-tilt/grab won't be beaten.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
I'm not going to go over what you said, but I agree with most of it.

The problem with new players becoming competitive with Melee is that the game plays like no way it was ever intended to, so it feels like a whole new game when making that transition. Street Fighter for example is intended to be competitive and a player becoming competitive from casually playing doesn't have to "play a new game".

I actually have a ton of stuff I really want to go over about Smash in general, but User Blogs is still not working. D:
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Actually, this has nothing to do with smash not being designed to be a competitive fighter. This has nothing to do with advanced techs even (though those simply create MORE rps relationships to deal with down the road).

This is just saying that too many players concentrate on trying to stuff advance techniques into their game at every opportunity, and rarely think about all of their available options and how the opponent can respond. People need to focus on things like which of their moves have good anti air hitboxes, which moves have long lasting hitboxes, what moves cause their character to move into a different position when the do them, ect, ect. That's because these are the kinds of things that have to be considered when figuring out if your tactic will beat what you think they're going to do.

Too often the response to "what should I do in X situation?" (a common question) is "well, just try things and see what works for you," when it SHOULD be "you could do 1, 2, or 3 to cover X, and the counter to each of these are..." You get it? When you ask what you should do against a jump in attack in Street Fighter, you get a list of ALL the anti airs for your character, as well as any air to air attacks that would beat it. When you ask for the same thing in smash, people will tell you what they do, not what could be done (because they don't know <_<)

My 2 cents
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,130
Location
Montreal, Quebec
The top tier metagame is heavily explored. Using Fox as an example, the tech skill learning curve for things like waveshining is huge.

People have to realize these things aren't necessary, they're just bonus traits of the character. Reading your opponent is hundreds of times more effective than float-cancel nairs and things like that. Playing a limited low tier character will really open your eyes, as they don't have many of these "bonuses".

The most difficult thing of all is going back to a top tier and trying to implement their bonuses in ways that don't interfere or dominate your playstyle. The perfect player is the one who uses every attribute of their character in the most effective way possible.
 

Rain(ame)

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
2,129
Location
I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
ICG makes a good point about other fighters. Which goes along with my post. Less options. What works for one...can't really work for another. Also...sometimes options just don't work.

Zodiac- While, you're right...a lot of times people don't focus on HOW to use them properly. People who just jump into Melee without actually knowing the game beforehand don't know how to make their arsenal work as well.

Dark Sonic- That's good and all, but I think I mentioned it before...if you focus too much on what SHOULD be done...you can't focus enough on what CAN be done. Honestly...the Melee community and the American fighting game community are missing elements from each other.

Take a look at how the Japanese and even Taiwan players (Gamerbee, anyone?) play. They know what the SHOULD do. They do it, but they also know what the CAN do and do it when they think they can pull it off. America is not so far off of Japan and Korea, etc. in those genres at all. Sometimes...we just need to remember to think outside the box. This is what the Melee community does. Hence why we rule the scene. However, what separates our progress is the knowing what we SHOULD do in writing. Maybe I should even say our willingness to ignore it at times.

Question and I mean think HARD on this- Why is it that old school players can be away from the game for so long and still come back and do damage?

You already know the answer.


A challenge: Go find friends who play Melee without AT's and see if you can beat them the same way. It doesn't include simple stuff like Dash Dancing or Shield Grabbing. I mean: No L-Cancel, no WaveDashing, none of the stuff we love to rely on so much.) See how well you do. I've done it, and realized that I do have a good grasp of the basics. Sometimes I feel I can do better, however. (Play with items if it makes them feel better.)

I taught someone something very simple- Jumping out of shine with Fox. He still can't L-cancel or wave dash, but I taught him that. (He's far too impatient) He can actually gimp with Fox quite well...just from me showing him that. Why? Because he already knows what to do with Fox Fundamentally.

oh god....sorry about the wall of text, lol.
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
tl;dr: "Words words words words words"

There's one thing I think you're glossing over slightly. "There need to be more threads that actually lay out plainly what beats what, in a general sense, for a given system, and why the relationship in that system is important."

While I agree with this point, I think your comparison to other fighting games is slightly unfair, simply because smash has many more options for any given situation. Keeping the fundamentals of "x beats y, so don't do z" in your mind as you progress through an average smash game is (probably, I can't say definitively, as I'm not good at any other game, nor smash for that matter) much more complex. People would rather just spam tech skill.

That said, I agree entirely with your penultimate paragraph. That needs to be ctrl+c'd to the top of smashboard's main page. Really good read.

That chart is pretty accurate O_O
Cept you can't go from "Wait" to "Attack" D:
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
It's not as dumb as the game rock or paper.

The only thing truely broken as far as I know under current ruleset is mindgames. You can't really beat it if you get mindraped unless you can CC because it's roy.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
OMG hahaha these response are so typical of smashboarders. OP and Dark Sonic are so spot on correct but the ICG retardations and the "omg you rite 2 much" posts... so typical of the exact mindset that's being opposed here.

I agree 100% with the op, ph00t. But melee isn't a stupid game, it's just the metagame. My theory is that it's just too complex for most players in this community to try and play it smart, reasoning through their decisions like a normal FG player does. It's so much easier to exploit the game's engine, creating enough options as to cause nigh unpredictabilty. It's so hard to predict any player when there are that many options that many give up on it and just "do stuff." This style's natural enemy is optimized play, where you learn matchups and special techniques and pit your execution skills and game knowledge, but still no predicting, because it is futile against that style. Even this style is just an evolution of the "do stuff that just works" style. Matchup knowledge and ATs are just so effective in causing super safe play that correct predictions are even weaker. This causes the metagame to gravitate toward this stupid kind of play.

Top players, I believe, are where they are because they have optimized their play close to the limit, enough to take care of those far below them with ease, AND they actually CAN predict and punish when they force players to think. They are, of course, beyond the metagame of the average player which IS stupid.

Brawl is stupid for other reasons
 

Rappster

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
569
Location
Torrance, CA
really interesting read. i've been trying to articulate somethign similar for a while, but the words have been escaping me.
your flow chart has a mix of specific and general actions. wait, or attack versus shield or grab.
i would generalize it even more.
in smash, you are either
approaching,
retreating,
edguarding,
recovering,
pressuring, or
punishing.
...not sure where to go from there.
 

dch111

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
472
The flowchart is pretty inaccurate.

It omits rolling.
It omits non-offensive attacks that are designed for escaping (for instance, in 64, Pikachu's upb)
Grabs are not strictly greater than or equal to attacks—you're forgetting about jabs and aerials. Even some tilts.
It omits crouching. That should be an interesting one to try to put in your flowchart since crouch canceling operates less on the principle of preventing an attack and more on delivering a better attack afterwards that ultimately wins the exchange.
Crouching also beats grabs sometimes.
In general, having "attack" as a single node is inaccurate since different attacks can have wildly different properties.
Case in point: shield does not strictly beat attacks due to aerials which can bring a character through an opponent's shield and land on the other side. This is not true for traditional fighting games, where blocking is far more realistic. In Smash, the shield is hardly a barrier to anyone's movement. And in general the game allows you to go to the other side of your opponent with a significant amount of ease.



Smash is simply too different from the other games. I mean, the fact that the stages are relatively huge, the jumps are ridiculously high, and there are platforms and grabbable edges should give it away. Heck, the goals are hardly the same.

Don't forget this is a platform fighter, which really has no other games in its genre to compare to. Versus platformers are arguably the closest, closer than fighting games which only show similarity at the small scale (the closer you zoom in, the more it looks like a traditional fighter. But the characters would disappear from the screen as soon as they jumped!). For further reflection, start up 1-player adventure mode. It's really a platformer at heart—just with an interesting mix of combat options that make it more complex than your typical platformer.

You can still try to start a trend of rigorous analysis if you want, but I guarantee you it will be very, very different from what you expect. Smash is a bizarre game.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
I argee with the guy above but I think movement is the number one cause of changing the flowchart.

Really space+movement+movement abiltily counters attacks not sheilds sheild are the last line of defence or 1st vs some projectiles. Also compare our sheild to other blocks/sheilds in other games you lack the option to WD backwards out of sheild and F-smash but you generally lack norml options like jabs.

Really there's a different flowchart for every match-up on some stages on what works and doesn't. compare sheilding in the middle of FD vs bowser to sheilding near a wall vs fox attack can or can't beated sheild.



In more than one match-up spacing is argueablely the most broken thing to have. In pichu/puff dittos as far as I know attacks don't lose to sheild other than bad ground moves or whatever their air game takes care or sheilds so they aren't problems and when they are in the air grabs can't win. and overall their ground games are weaker and will have a VERY difficult time counting the air game due to lots of prediction needed.

so Basically they carefully space their movement and try to punish as hard as they can or need to abuse mindgames. nothing esle really works

So the flowchart would be something like

spaceing airs<movement

movement spacing+ air move spacing counters both.

so spacing>sheilds

spacing>grabs

spacing> approach

mindgames>all


am I wrong? those matches can take a very long time. stages change them all as small stages edge gaurd become a better option.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
I argee with the guy above but I think movement is the number one cause of changing the flowchart.

Really space+movement+movement abiltily counters attacks not sheilds sheild are the last line of defence or 1st vs some projectiles. Also compare our sheild to other blocks/sheilds in other games you lack the option to WD backwards out of sheild and F-smash but you generally lack norml options like jabs.

Really there's a different flowchart for every match-up on some stages on what works and doesn't. compare sheilding in the middle of FD vs bowser to sheilding near a wall vs fox attack can or can't beated sheild.

DID YOU REALLY NEED THREE SPACES HERE??

In more than one match-up spacing is argueablely the most broken thing to have. In pichu/puff dittos as far as I know attacks don't lose to sheild other than bad ground moves or whatever their air game takes care or sheilds so they aren't problems and when they are in the air grabs can't win. and overall their ground games are weaker and will have a VERY difficult time counting the air game due to lots of prediction needed.

so Basically they carefully space their movement and try to punish as hard as they can or need to abuse mindgames. nothing esle really works

So the flowchart would be something like

spaceing airs<movement

movement spacing+ air move spacing counters both.

so spacing>sheilds

spacing>grabs

spacing> approach

mindgames>all


am I wrong? those matches can take a very long time. stages change them all as small stages edge gaurd become a better option.
ok WTF are you saying??

STFU icg. Don't compare mindgames with game elements like character distances, grabbing or shielding. Edgeguarding isn't an OPTION here. Spacing aerials is on the same comparison level as grabbing? Spacing aerials comprises of so many different discrete choices. We're talking about FUNDAMENTALS. Seriously kid? you're comparing edgeguarding, spacing, and grabbing side by side? WTF stopped you from saying "taking stocks > all" HUH? do you even think?

your posts hurt my eyes too. You almost make want to grammar/spelling edit your post so I can actually understand and properly dismantle this piece of **** post attempting convey stupid ideas.

The thing that really set me off, ICG, is "am i wrong?" because not only are you not right, but you're NOT EVEN WRONG.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
ok WTF are you saying??

STFU icg. Don't compare mindgames with game elements like character distances, grabbing or shielding. Edgeguarding isn't an OPTION here. Spacing aerials is on the same comparison level as grabbing? Spacing aerials comprises of so many different discrete choices. We're talking about FUNDAMENTALS. Seriously kid? you're comparing edgeguarding, spacing, and grabbing side by side? WTF stopped you from saying "taking stocks > all" HUH? do you even think?

your posts hurt my eyes too. You almost make want to grammar/spelling edit your post so I can actually understand and properly dismantle this piece of **** post attempting convey stupid ideas.

The thing that really set me off, ICG, is "am i wrong?" because not only are you not right, but you're NOT EVEN WRONG.
Nice post you got there. Maybe i'll read it if you calm down :)

Movement+spacing totally changes the effect of what works if you did an attack like most fighters you wouldn't be sliding back as you attack, really they lack the slide backwards affect we commonly see and lack the ground movement used to beat it a lot. The flowchart is wrong unless we take out movement.

There are counters and balances they are balanced and countered in a number of ways that is just plain ******** to say A beats B and if I see A before I B I could C with if countered by a different varition of A like the difference between light sheilding and sheilding, CCing D-tilt or CCing a weaker move but for more range like sometimes I CC D-smash as falco and other times I CC shine depending on their percents and my own.

Which in goes back to the fact there are so many varitions again you can't just be so straight forward. You don't CC against Gannon but you do vs roy, stock leads or just a dieing need of needing to regain control, how lagy the move is maybe if it's lagy enough you can still quickly get that shine, which becomes more valueable? Maybe they're zedla and shine really doesn't do much compred to d-smash to edge gaurd.

And you know what? They buffered roll so there was no chance in h*** you could've punished it with a CC maybe if you did an approaching laser. There are so many options it's not compareable in what beats what like 100% they lack things like extreme movement, CCing, or different percents.

In melee you have sooooooo much control it's unreal just think if SF had air control like melee I know you'd see more fake out approachs and retreating airs and slowly approaching fireballs. Maybe you could fireball above at someone and deceide to go back to safetly or try to follow-up. anti air game would become even more important and harder to use.

I only know a little bit about SF, but I know with more control it wouldn't be the same game it'd be crazy just thinking if you could DD/wd or even WL I could image them Wavelanding into moves with inv. frames a decent amount like fireball waveland that would have insane stage control and if they couldn't retreat any more they might be totally f***ed. But there are so many changes in both games it's extremely hard to compare the 2. Or even melee to other smash games in a lot of ways. WTF in SSB attacks beat sheilds and really sheilds lose pretty hard overall.


Also you didn't say how I was wrong about anything. If I know your next moves and how to counter it how do you beat that? If I know you lose marth punishes bair from puff. Simplely saying spacing/reading are mad important. Sorry my bad.


JUST TO Signia


Man sometimes you make me wish I could troll someone because you make it seem like i'm amazing at it. Let me give you some advice give up rage/hate all it does is hurt yourself and I've set myself up so I just make haters look ******** or they can't feel good about trying to mess with me. Really lets say I post f*** you okay. Why should you care this is just some ****** online who wastes his time hating really why not just laugh at him and make him feel even worse about everything for being a hater?

You've never once bugged me when you posted anything semi hateful nor anyone really. I kindof just smile at you. :reverse: Just be smart you're better than that, if you can't win an arguement because i'm to dumb or anyone esle sometimes you just got to drop it, love you man stop letting me bug you, but I really don't mind if you keep being upset about my posts. Because I know the 1st thing I typed down got to you.

I'm going to read through this post a few times to make sure it looks good. : P
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
that post was much better, and I actually agree with you except for the creepy smiling part
 

smakis

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
747
am I the only one who usually just skips icg's posts? (I'm sure the above post is good but I'm just too tired for a wall of text right now =))
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
I don't skip anyones posts nor do I normally call people out for wasting posts : P. I don't care for the : P right there hmm

: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
: P
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Some thoughts.

I'm not going to touch other games or Brawl because I don't know much about them. If I say "smash" I mean "Melee". And I try to use "Melee".

We have a very wacky positioning system because of how our movement and stage features wind up working. There are spots on maps where certain approaches and defenses simply stop working just because. The easiest, most observable example of this phenomenon is FJ aerial approaches (or high aerial approach) vs anyone underneath a platform. The platform stuffs aerials you do early, so you either wait until you've fallen through it and then you it (which isn't an option for most characters) or you land on it and lag and the drop and do something else. Another famous example is the jump complications with FoD's low platforms.

So your options aren't consistent; they change based on which part of the level you're on. And your position in relation to the opponent. This can, of course, be good for you or bad for you. As a result, Melee is at least to some degree a positioning fight (in my opinion, to a very large degree). You try to get a position where you have the advantage and make your opponent attack you. Or you try to get as much mileage out of that favourable position by preying on their fear.

Amazingly, position permeates to a whole bunch of things in this game. Including move vs move interaction. Because of how much fluidity we have in our movement through space, hitbox position (and therefore "priority") can be very ambiguous and, at times, very strange. The concept of a 'low priority' move "beating" a 'high priority' move is often baffling to people.

In think this is the result of just how we like to think about moves in the game. It is tempting to think of a "Fox Nair" as a "Fox Nair", like it's a move that always behaves in this very simple, linear way. It can be nice to think, "Fox Bair" beats "Fox Dair" because you've seen how disjointed Fox's Bair is at its peak disjointedness. And therefore "Fox Bair" must always beat "Fox Dair" as if that's the only interaction that can ever occur. But it doesn't work that way because of how much control we have over our position going into the move interaction... where both players can place their moves, and from where. All sorts of things can affect something like two moves attacking one another. And this is where all that silly starting position comes into place.

If we could only SHFFL, "Fox Bair" would always beat "Fox Dair". But the truth is, we can FJ, SH, begin on a platform, begin under a platform, be retreating, be approaching... and the craziness of all this is that aerial hitboxes drag. So even if it looked all disjointed and pretty when you looked it up on Seanson's hitbox system... the red bubbles can drag. To reduce or increase its disjointedness. So there are even more weird interactions that can occur.

But nothing really new there.

Moving on...

Amazingly, ICG actually does raise a good point, too, in that breaking this game down to an RPS system becomes excruciatingly if you consider that a lot of defensive/offensive play in this game winds up categorizing itself as "movement camping" (most famously you have dash dance camping but other forms certainly exist). Which is a very unique system because it constitutes a form of waiting that can certainly beat a dodge (frame advantage), beats certain forms of attacks and grabs (but not all of them!), and puts at advantage on shield. And from there you have the issue of whether or not you classify it as waiting. Since it is certainly a form of waiting. Do you call it "mobile waiting"? And then, in turn, does that necessitate a separate category for "stationary waiting"?

Similarly, low lag attacks (especially with aerials - see Puff's Bair spam) can also prove problematic for this sort of chart. Melee's shield system has some complications with it. While it's certainly true that attack < shield is true in the sense that you put up shield and then are safe from the move, you're then in shield. And that means you then have to commit to something to escape shield. This is most obvious with Yoshi; he has no jump so he can't use some very key tools out of shield. But it also applies to pretty much every character in this game. You shield, you then have to do some action that cancels shield. And you can very easily be punished for any of them. Wavedashing, while fast, forgoes invincibility. Rolls have invincibility, but they have increased lag. Sidestep forms a middle ground for duration while still providing invincibility but it also doesn't move you from where you are. And holding block forever is unsafe because the shield shrinks (and its chance of blocking actually decreases as a result; culminating in it breaking and loading you up with stun). Attacking shields can often put you at advantage, despite how they may have been intended to work.

And then Melee confounds us by saying that sometimes shielding can directly lead you to a punish or get you out unscathed. Like when you get laggy punishable moves, or simply force a misstep on your opponent by dashing into shield to mar their spacing. Or if you (CC) shield grab a jab that they intended to use to stuff your shield grab. It's very... weird. And altogether riddled with inconsistencies. I guess you could generally make it a point that aerials beat shield whereas ground moves don't, but then you get ranges involved and late aerials and it just becomes a mess.

Alright I'm done for now.

I'm not really going anywhere with this at this point.

I'm tired.

And it's late.

I didn't really have an idea of a cohesive point I was planning on making but these are just some thoughts on the mechanics of the game.

Amazingly I find stale moves to be one of the only ones that just makes sense and follows a very simple system but people often rag on it. It's also one of the easiest to plan around with the whole 7% rule.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
Must not ruin topic with pichu vs kirby debate aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

but If we played smash like some games with no aircontrol, no running/airdodges and etc. it would in fact play a lot like sheild beats attack and junk only taking away SHs/FFing If you give up that control and put in on stamia mode on FD would play a lot like it when you see freakin puff or whoever fall at you you'd try to beat out their air move always and it would fail if they didn't have somekind of pressure.

but options like movement stop it from being so straight forward and now that I think about it also boring. ahhh just thinking playing against m2 like it's f***ing streetfighter full hop projectile charge teleport away if you walk up to him.

the control changes so much
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,244
Location
NC
Just keep in mind, my flow chart is intended to be a generalization. It doesn't really include considerations of spacing, because that is an element that complicates move interaction in any fighting game. ICG and Kirby Kaze, though, bring up a very good point that spacing in Smash is also a very different monster, containing a much more nuanced game than most fighters, where aerial spacing is tied directly to ground spacing.

The chart is also not meant to say anyone option "beats" another, but rather that it negates the other. An attack that lands on a shield is negated in the sense that damage and knockback aren't dealt. It's actually a high stress situation for both parties because both have to commit to a reaction to it, but overall, the shield is usually the more successful option against attacks.
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
So you really believe that most players don't think of the game in terms of options, and try to figure out what options beat other options?

I've always thought that players are "bad" because of some combination of

a). they aren't familiar with all of the relevant options and how to beat them.
Knowing all of the relevant options in various situations is really complicated because of what KirbyKaze said - how positioning affects everything, and how many movement options most characters have. I think this is by far the hardest part of learning Smash knowledge.

b). they don't execute the correct option consistently enough (tech skill).
c). they are too predictable in their choice of options, or unable to adapt to their opponents' choice of options.

These problems don't come from not viewing Smash as a series of RPS-like situations. The thing is, you have to know what you can throw and what beats what in RPS before you can play RPS successfully.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
The chart is also not meant to say anyone option "beats" another, but rather that it negates the other. An attack that lands on a shield is negated in the sense that damage and knockback aren't dealt. It's actually a high stress situation for both parties because both have to commit to a reaction to it, but overall, the shield is usually the more successful option against attacks.
I'm really not sure I'd agree with that.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
I miss his nazi one, but whatever it was only a symbol of how the evilest man to ever live is a joke and not feared as we would if it hadn't been for the jokes.

Really the game comes down to this spacing, tactics, mix-ups, prediction(and a number of mindgames maybe confuseing movement like jump up and down around a platform as gannon for a few sec.s and then down-B), punishment, recovery(di, sdi, CC,recoverying and etc.) and movement because it's to general to just say spacing at times.

Also wrecking their spacing by avoiding it is normally better overall you don't sheild most s*** and even then who are makes sheilding amazing bowser or you're ******** G&W.

There are to MANY counters and balnces and junk to simplely be so straight forward as to say sheilds stop attacks bull crap all that can do sometimes is cost you that much more of your sheild and push you back when puff bairs airs your sheild or if someone with good sheild pressure comes in your sheild was a bad idea and you're losing control. here are times but you have a flowchart that say sheilds stop attscks there's no sometimes depending on attack then sheilding is a terrible option and then go to DDing/WD back/f-tilt and etc.

some attacks are total fail very sheild. but others aren't if you go detailed like sheik's f-tilt beats pichu's nair if not from straight above or behide then yes that's true there's no surprises or tricks it's straight forward sheik wins. But if you said something like sheik's f-tilt beats pichu's sh you're wrong because he can still stop himself from even being by the hit box with his 2nd jump, up-B, or air dodge. 2nd jump sould cause problems that makes him counter the f-tilt with a jolt.

So many many options. I know FS lacks total air control, 2nd jump and different heights of jumps. It lacks all the movement control melee has you've got a new element that totally changes gameplay.
 
Top Bottom