It's the friggin Koopa King....The tank that is Near Gold Bowser.

[Bandit]

@Protein

You made no attempt to create a longer list of Pros. There are far more than what you think, but you are already convinced otherwise. Basically, just don't use it if you dont' want to. It does nothing to stop what you would normally do if you didn't have it. The rest of us will continue to use it and get better.

 

[BadGuy]

What if you know what attack your opponent is gonna do next? And bowser can tank it? Wouldn't that be a great advantage to have in that situation? Use your mind, and read theirs, be the beast with a brain.

 

[Veril]

Using super armor instead of the shield means you suffer no shieldstun. Shieldstun is a bigger deal in this game, with certain shffl aerials actually having a positive advantage on shield whereas it would be punishable if "tanked" with the crouch SA. The difference in frames is not insignificant either. Just throwing it out there. I'm not discounting what Proteininja has said, but the questionable usefulness of crouch SA isn't a compelling enough reason to remove it.

Jab > side-b... holy s***. That's all I have to say ;p

You know you can actually jab out of a crouch using the c-stick... I gotta find where I wrote up how to use the c-stick to input whatever (jabs for example) while holding down.

 

[The Cape]

Looks like we need some Livestream Bowser action this weekend. I need to practice him up anyway.

Besides, Bowser has amazing tools for everything and just builds damage like a monster.

 

[proteininja]

Well I'll admit that him having it doesn't hurt anything. Its just my opinion that the risks are not worth the rewards.

The livestream should be pretty sweet. I'll be watching hopefully.

 

[Plum]

Punishing something that is totally safe on shield seems like a good deal to me ._.

 

[BadGuy]

Man, i need to post more videos. Cuz my bowser is stronger then cape's. Yes, i said it.

 

[cobaltblue]

1. Might've been true in vbrawl, but in brawl+ that's no longer the case, snake's close combat is inferior to bowser's.

2. Clearly you didn't watch a single video i posted, yes bowser bomb. I use it constantly. It's his 2nd strongest move, and kills at an unbelievably low percentage, it just takes some creativity to make it land. Bowser has an amazing amount of deph to his character, that most people over look. But, nobody wants to hear me ramble, watch the videos.

1. Not a bad trade off considering he gets insane priority for the range he has and a great recovery for his weight class.

2. I'll be sure to watch the videos then. Bowser is so **** fun to kick *** with.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so i am playing bowers in brawl+ and i find him to be the most fun character in the game atm but he is far from my best so i need some help (although on the last page someone listed some nice things he can do (holy**** i had no idea u can jab to side B thats crazy).

anyway i think the SA on crawl could be very useful but i am having a ton of trouble using it, i always try to d-tilt and it just seems to slow should i try f-tilt instead? and can y up-B out of crawl, Also jabing eith the c-stick sounds useful. My friend plays a lot of ness and i win most of the time but even against ness who has plenty of attacks that don't beat the SA i still can't punish what am i doing wrong?

Also i like bowser so no complaints but when i use f-smash i look at it and feel it should have the same armor as wario (i am not asking for this just saying it looks like it should.)

Also m i correct to think his f-tilt hitbox is very close to how the move actually looks b/c it seems to me that its not disjointed at all.

Lastly no one mentioned this but nair is great for hitting air-doges killed ness with this many times.

 

[proteininja]

F-tilt does fit the animation really well. Also, it is important to note that the side+b only combos after jab1 not the jab combo. It works because it comes out at the same frame jab2 would, but it won't work if they are at the very edge of your jab range. It works effectively because your opponent does not expect it.

Just remember that you have a big fat reset button with upB OOS. You can come up with many strategies for spacing and combos, but it is important to note that you need upB to control the stage and your opponent. Everyone has there own uses for things.

My favorite training technique is to pretend I am capable of anything with Bowser. I will go for very far fetched combos, chase people WAY off stage to try and gimp, and moving a little faster than even my brain works. While doing this I usually discover some of the things I imagine are actually possible.

Just play him. Concentrate on his separate tactics until you can eventually integrate all of them. Then you will be ready for the tourney scene.

 

[Alphatron]

When I have more time, once again I'll respond to this thread in depth. Computer didn't feel like starting up.

Also, DownB out of crouch>UpB OOS. Tanked a Peach Jab 1 yesterday after a dash cancel and managed to pull this off.

 

[Dark Sonic]

When I have more time, once again I'll respond to this thread in depth. Computer didn't feel like starting up.

Also, DownB out of crouch>UpB OOS. Tanked a Peach Jab 1 yesterday after a dash cancel and managed to pull this off.

0_o

So now jabbing Bowser is punishable by death? How is this technique "useless" again?

 

[proteininja]

0_o

So now jabbing Bowser is punishable by death? How is this technique "useless" again?

I forgot upb won the match automatically. Let me rethink my strategy.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't know man, I know some pretty safe jabs that will just laugh at your up B OoS attempts (either from having too much range for Up be to reach, or just have a better advantage on block than... -6 <_<)

Are you forgetting that shieldstun exists or something?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so i have been playing some more bowser and i really like him i have gotten better at using the crouch armor and just his move set as a whole i only have one complaint.

the complaint is that when recovering if i hit my opponent with the weaker hits of up-B they will be able to punish me before my upB landing lag ends. Now this problem might be fixed so i have a question does bowser's upB legless land if u do it right like DK's does? if so then there is no problem at all but if not i still really like bowser and will still play him but this one thing is just kinda annoying.

 

[proteininja]

There is no way to laglessly land bowser's aerial upb. It is just one of those things you should avoid. However if you connect with all of the hitboxes it does some pretty good damage, but know if you aerial upb and you plan on landing on stage you should get punished.

 

[Alphatron]

Personally, I'd like to know if there are any safe ways to recover with Bowser. I usually try to choose stages with platforms so I can UpB onto the platform so that it acts as if I did the UpB on land. I also try pretend to aim for the edge while preserving my 2nd jump so that my opponent tries to edgeguard me and I end up recovering high. Recovery isn't a strong point for Bowser at all though.

Adding videos to the first page in 120 seconds. If you guys have any vids to submit, post them here as well. My spacing sucks by the way.

If it wasn't for the range, I'd consider nuetral air to be a reliable setup move.

 

[proteininja]

I believe bowser's recovery to be great. If you know how to sweet spot the ledge and mix up your approach to it you should never have problems getting back except from the worst places. Plus bowser usually recovers high because I di up and i will do down b to ledge. I probably downb to ledge twice as much as I recover low.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ok i have got some questions

1: i was watching the video of bowser vs peach on FD which is on the first page and i noticed matrix using up-B a lot, i know its a very good move but was he using it to much or should i start using it a lot more?

2: does up-throw have a point? is there ever a good time to use that throw?

3:i have been playing my friends ganon a good deal and i have won most the matches but i find that MU to feel up hill anyone else feel this way? the major problems for me is his jab is just to fast when he is in close, my other major problem is i am still getting use to bowser's range so i often get punished for just missing him. I should also add the down B edge hog is a great and easy gimp i this MUand mae winning a lot easier.

4: is there ever a time when dair is a better option then nair?

5: i only watched to vids so far but i don't see much up-tilt which is my most used move any reason for that

6: this is more a comment but the to videos i watched have been pretty helpful and have given me some ideas i will test on my friends.

7:when on the edge what are bowser's good options?

Anyway sorry for some noob questions but i am a noob at bowser so bear with me for now i will get better/more use to his moveset and playstyle

 

[Alphatron]

I use UpB way too much which is a bad habit from melee. And also because I'm not spacing all that well. Up throw is good for combos vs. heavies only. Otherwise, its measly damage. I prefer dthrow for light wieghts. Bowser's ledge attack (<100) has good range and is quick.

Bowser is really easy for Ganon to techchase by the way.

Can't comment on dair, but I use it in the air sometimes.

 

[BadGuy]

There is no way to laglessly land bowser's aerial upb. It is just one of those things you should avoid. However if you connect with all of the hitboxes it does some pretty good damage, but know if you aerial upb and you plan on landing on stage you should get punished.

That's kinda true, bowser's up b landing requires a little craftiness on the joystick to land with no lag, and only at certain altitudes. If you up b at a low angle and then hold back on the joystick while landing bowser will land softly. With this, air up b becomes a great anti air move that does 26+ damage, if you're willing to try it.

"i was watching the video of bowser vs peach on FD which is on the first page and i noticed matrix using up-B a lot, i know its a very good move but was he using it to much or should i start using it a lot more?"

Use up b more, a bowser that doesn't up b is not really much of a bowser. Fortress just has too many good things about it to not use, its his fastest attack, defends from all angles, does 20 damage at close range, you can travel small distances, and invincibility. Use it whenever someone is in your grill, or you need a quick hit.

 

[KOkingpin]

4: is there ever a time when dair is a better option then nair?

i thought id give some input on this one. You can actually shield poke someone if they have been pressured to the Edge or at the edge of a platform with Dair where Nair would not do that cause it (Dair) is a multihit move. Its a quick gimp too cause of the trajectory at which it sends them.

 

[BadGuy]

Oh wow, i've been practicing the tank crawl some more and i gotta say, tank crawl is amazing. I feel like a predator toying with it's prey before gutting them open. I'll gather my best videos of it in action later in the week. Best place to use it is when you think your opponent is gonna do thier get up attack, tank it, then punish them with a forward smash.

Mwahahahaa!

btw, alphatron, bowser can tank Captain falcon and link's get up attack, be sure to edit those.

 

[Alphatron]

Getup attacks are universal. Ledge attacks are the picky ones. Looking forward to those videos!

 

[proteininja]

Lol. Why not just shield the getups?

 

[BG3]

You might be able to hit someone during their getup animation if you're fast enough. That's my guess.

 

[proteininja]

All you have to do if you have the foresight to know they are doing a getup is shield it and then you get a free grab.

 

[BadGuy]

I only have 2 videos where i actually use it effectively, i'm still practicing. But experimenting and knowing what attacks bowser can tank is a nice reassurance.

 

[BadGuy]

Lol. Why not just shield the getups?

He does have a point, but while shielding, i can't do the more powerful attacks out of a shield in time, and grabs only do about 14 damage max. I'm working on landing forward smash out of tank crawl, it's a little awkward right now, but i'll show you, i'll show ALL of you!

 

[Alphatron]

I should try that. I usually don't bother shielding the getup attack when I can land a DownB killer.

 

[Veril]

grabs only do about 14 damage max.

lolwut

pummel, d-throw and up-throw fair say hi.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But why shield the getup attack when you can just tank the...4% and do something other than OoS options. I'd imagine down Bing someone after tanking their getup attack would be a much more effective KO option than any grab option. There's also the possibility that they won't actually getup attack and will instead do...something else. Wouldn't you rather not be in your shield and miss a reactionary punish opportunity because of having to wait an extra 9 frames before being able to follow them?

To add to the mindgames, if you pull this off on someone (or just fighting an opponent who knows that Bowser can tank getup attacks) you pretty much eliminate getup attack as a logical choice for them in the first place, making it just that much easier to predict them (less options=more succesful reads)

But of course, I don't play Bowser <_<.

 

[proteininja]

But of course, I don't play Bowser <_<.

I don't think you could underestimate the importance of this statement any more.

 

[Plum]

I'm fairly certain at this point that you just refuse to admit that you were wrong.
Rather than look like a fool for admitting you are wrong about the SA on crawl, you are just going to bash any post that is attempting to show you why this is a useful tool.

OOS options are limited. The amount of options you have out of tanking a blow is well beyond the number you are given OOS. OPTIONS ARE A GOOD THING.
Even if DS doesn't play Boozer, he has proven himself to be a much more knowledgeable player than you seem to have. Knowledge is power. It doesn't take much to see that something that gives Bowser more options to punish opponents than shield alone could ever do is a good thing.

Tell me how you punish an attack that is safe on shield, but able to be tanked. For somebody who loves their shield so much, I can tell you that a player using the crawl armor is going to be punishing their opponents more often than you are without it. Some attacks are either too safe on shield, or don't give you enough of an advantage for your OOS options. With crawl armor you ignore shieldstun, can punish a wider range of attacks, and punish with a wider variety of moves. Badguy is talking about landing an Fsmash out of crawl. Good luck ever getting even remotely CLOSE to that kind of punishment OOS.

In a missed tech situation, crawl armor is probably going to be highly valuable. Not only because you can punish with essentially any move you want (Fsmash and Down B for insanely early kills for example) but if you predict wrong, you still have so much freedom compared to if you held your shield as they missed their tech. That's one situation, and if Boozer players invest more time into the crawl armor we are going to see many more circumstances in which tanking a hit is one of your best options.

 

[proteininja]

Everything you just said is correct. Here is the problem.

VIDS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

I want to see real people in real tourney situations using this, because the problem is if they have options on what attack they are going to use, and you forget your memorized list of attacks that you can tank for a moment, and they happen to use one that isnt on it. YOU get punished. Everyone is trying real hard right now to make this work, but it just isnt worth the risk.

Edit: I just watched alpha's 2 vids and i have to say. crouch SA to down b is lulzy. I still stand by my point though that the list of moves that are below the damage threshold is too large to be put to practical use when most characters can only have a handful of moves tanked, and the ones who can have almost their whole movesets tanked weren't a problem in the first place.

 

[Bandit]

Everything you just said is correct. Here is the problem.

VIDS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

I want to see real people in real tourney situations using this, because the problem is if they have options on what attack they are going to use, and you forget your memorized list of attacks that you can tank for a moment, and they happen to use one that isnt on it. YOU get punished. Everyone is trying real hard right now to make this work, but it just isnt worth the risk.

Edit: I just watched alpha's 2 vids and i have to say. crouch SA to down b is lulzy. I still stand by my point though that the list of moves that are below the damage threshold is too large to be put to practical use when most characters can only have a handful of moves tanked, and the ones who can have almost their whole movesets tanked weren't a problem in the first place.

Can I nominate this for one of the dumbest posts of the year?

Please, stop posting. Not on the topic, but completely. People have put up with you and given you plenty of logical uses for it, and you still are standing on an opinion (which has no merit or weight or any ability to change anything) purely based on principal.

Any player who complains about abilities given to their main (especially this unique one) should just quit the character.

Edit: Just look at the disadvantage MK is put at. You play a character that does well against MK for crying out loud, and it has a lot to do with this ability (among other things).

 

[Alphatron]

It's all about knowing when to do it and knowing the matchup for the character you are facing. Forgetting what you can crouch through is almost comparable to forgetting what moves your opponent has that are safe on shield. It's also like forgetting what their kill moves are. You don't do either one of those things. Nor do you go into a match with Kirby thinking about which one of Meta Knight's moves will screw you over.

Think of it this way. You're fighting Donkey Kong and you see him running towards you. You don't ever crouch in this situation. You also don't ever crouch if you see him approaching from the air. The latter applies to Ike as well. I may sound biased because I was the one who put this list together and spent the time seeing what I could tank and what I couldn't. But simply glancing over the list and seeing that the moves you can tank from DK and Ike will show you that it isn't really worth it.

If your opponent commits to a move that you can crouch through it. If a Link player uses a nair and fastfalls towards me, then I can crouch and respond with whatever I want to. If I Ness player is approaching from anywhere but directly above me and is on the offensive, then I can crouch through all of his approach options (he can dash grab, but that would ignore the shield as well). I just typed these examples up without looking at the first page again.

Either way, I'll stop arguing for the crouch at the moment. That isn't what this topic is about 100%, and if you want to claim that it isn't an option due to you not knowing what you can crouch or being hit by a move that knocks you out of crouch, than I guess it's alright.

 

[proteininja]

Can I nominate this for one of the dumbest posts of the year?

Please, stop posting. Not on the topic, but completely. People have put up with you and given you plenty of logical uses for it, and you still are standing on an opinion (which has no merit or weight or any ability to change anything) purely based on principal.

Any player who complains about abilities given to their main (especially this unique one) should just quit the character.

Edit: Just look at the disadvantage MK is put at. You play a character that does well against MK for crying out loud, and it has a lot to do with this ability (among other things).

Can you? yes. Will everyone agree with you? no.

We all know there is way dumber stuff said in the 6.0 thread. My point is difficult to back up with data or numbers(which apparently the only thing that matters to you) because the usefulness of this technique is completely based on the skill of its user.

BTW I nominated you, too! When you win I'll be sure to clap politely. I won't let my jealousy show.

Edit: I have to admit I'm starting to see the light now that I have killed a few people off of crouch SA, but if there is anything we should take away from this its that a lesser smasher would have just quit brawl+ if he disagreed with you guys. I don't think I've encountered a bigger bag of ***** than a few of the people on this forum. I mean at least badguy and alphatron debated it with me like my opinion meant something. Bandit and Plum can go eat a ****.

 

[BG3]

I'm just guessing here, but weren't lightweights sort of a problem for Bowser? But now with the crouch SA, the matchups have gotten easier. Again, don't take this seriously, I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[cobaltblue]

^Outside of jigglypuff, I agree that SA helps bowser alot against lightweights and chars who rely on multi hit moves.

But if you don't want SA sonic will gladly take the SA.