It's the friggin Koopa King....The tank that is Near Gold Bowser.

[Alphatron]

With Brawl+ destroying my vbrawl game with Ness, I decided to pick up a new secondary for brawl+. As of two days ago, I decided that it would be Bowser, and I proceeded to play with him a bit. As anyone who actually plays Bowser knows, he kicks major ***. But I see most of his tools neglected whenever I see him played. Specifically, I'm talking about his super armor on crouch/crawl.

The super armor frames occur as soon as Bowser enters his crouching animation, last as long as he's crouching or crawling around (backwards or forwards), and come to an end AFTER his getup animation for his crouch is over. They also end if you cancel that animation with anything else. The crouch super armor has a tolerance of 7% dmg. Any attack dealing more than that will ignore the Super Armor and send Bowser into hitstun.

Now that we've gotten the technical stuff out of the way, I shall proeceed to explain why the crouch super armor is so good, and why you should even use it over plain old shielding.

Advantages of crouching vs. shielding
---
-Crouching gives no shieldstun, so Bowser is free to perform any action out of his crouch once the attack ends. Try mastering this with by doing an ftilt out of crouch. Remember that you aren't crouching once you Bowser begins to stand up!
-If you fear that you are taking too much damage, you can go from a crouch directly into Bowser's massive shield. You can't do this opposite, as there is lag from dropping the shield.
-While crouching you can still crawl, allowing you to position yourself perfectly to punish your foe after an attack.
-You can move through most projectile spam
-Crouching grants super armor over those annoying shield poke attacks

Disdvantages of crouching vs. shielding
---
-You're still taking damage, and since you aren't being moved by the attack hitting you, multihit attacks can send your percent up quickly. Squall hammer and Peach's dsmash do over 35% damage if you aren't careful.
-Being predictable will get you grabbed.
-Following the previous statement, being predictable will get you thrashed by an attack that your Super Armor can't handle.
-Your only way to move while maintaining the super armor is to crawl, while is slow compared to Bowser's run and aerial manuverability.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, here is the list of attacks for every character that Bowser's SA can tank through. You'll smile when you see Metaknight's section. I didn't check ledge attacks for every character, but getup attacks are universal, much like jabs. I also neglected to check about 3 or 4 dash attacks. List is long so contrl+F who you want to see.


Mario
---
Nuetral B
Up B
Jab
Dair
Nair (weak hitbox)
Dtilt

Luigi
---
Jab
nuetral B
Side B (uncharged)
Down B
Dash attack
D-taunt
Uair (weak hit)
Nair (weak hitbox)

Peach
---
Jab
Dair
Dsmash
Down B (up until the dotted eyes turnip)
Up B
Nuetral B
Bair (2nd hitbox)
Nair (weak hitbox)
Dash attack

Bowser
---
Nuetral B
Down B (rising hit)
Jab
Up B (aerial, weak hitbox on grounded)
Dair
Getup attack

Yoshi
---
Bair
Dair
Jab
Nair (weak hitbox)
Down B (rising hitbox)
Side B (initial hitbox)

Captain Falcon
---
Nair (first kick only)
Jab
Fair (sourspot only!!!)

Fox
---
Dair
Down B
Utilt
Ftilt
Jab
Up B (before he shoots off in a direction)
Side B
Uair (initial hitbox)
Nair (weak hitbox)
Fair
Dash attack

Falco
---
Nuetral B
Up B (both before and after he fires off)
Down B
Jab
Fair
Side B
Utilt
Nair
Bair (weak hitbox)
Dash attack (weak hit)

Wolf
---
Nuetral B (knife and projectile)
Up B
Down B
Jab
Side B (sourspot)
Usmash (first hit)
Fsmash(first hit)
Dtilt
Ftilt
Nair (one of the weak hits towards the end)

Wario
---
Jab
Up B
Dair
Usmash (excluding the very last hit)
Down B (uncharged only, doesn't trip you)
Fair
Nair (weak hitbox)
Side B (when moving slowly)
Dash attack

Donkey Kong
---
Jab
Up B

Diddy Kong
---
Nuetral B (uncharged)
Jab
Down B
Dash attack
Up smash
Fsmash (first hit only)
Dtilt
Utilt

Ice Climbers
---
Nuetral B
Side B
Down B
Jab
Dtilt
Utilt
Nair
Uair (weak hitbox)
Dash attack

Link
---
Jab
Nuetral B (up until fully charged arrow)
Usmash (first two hits only)
Up B (aerial)
Bair
Down B (only on dropped bombs...and at point blank)
Zair
Fair (first hit)

Toon Link
---
Jab
Up B (grounded and aerial)
Down B (excluding smash throw up and smash throw down. Anything else is fine)
Nuetral B (uncharged)
Zair
Fsmash (first hit)

Ganondorf (Gordonfordadorfenberg)
---
Jab
Up B (last hitbox)
Dsmash (first kick)
Nair (2nd kick)

I find it odd that he has more moves than Falcon that Bowser can SA through...

Zelda
---
Jab
Nuetral B
Upsmash
Fsmash (all hits except the final hitbox)
Nair
Fair (sourspot only)
Bair (sourspot only)
Dair (she can sweetspot your shield, but not the crouch)
Dtilt
Up B (both hits)

Sheik
---
Nuetral B
Jab
Side B (tipped and untipped)
Utilt
Ftilt
Dash attack
Fsmash (first hit)
Nair (weak hitbox)
Bair (weak hitbox)
Uair (sourspot)

Kirby
---
Jab
Utilt
Dtilt
Dash attack
Dair
Fair
Nair (weak hit)
Up B (descending hit and projectile only)
Ledge attack

Meta Knight
---
Nuetral B
Side B
Jab
Ftilt (all three hits)
Dtilt
Utilt
Usmash
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Nair (weak hitbox)

King Dedede
---
Jab
Ftilt
Up B (stars)
Side B (everything but the gordo)
Uair
Dair
Bair (weak hitbox)
Nair (weak hitbox)

Pit
---
Nuetral B (all but fully charged arrow)
Side B
Usmash (first two hits)
Nair
Uair
Utilt
Fsmash (first hit)

Samus
---
Nuetral B (uncharged, first two charges)
Jab
Up B
Down B
Side B (normal missle)
Zair
Uair
Fair
Usmash
Nair (weak hitbox)
Dash attack (weak hitbox)

Zero Suit Samus
---
Nuetral B
Side B (untipped/sourspot)
Utilt
Ftilt
Dtilt
Dash attack
Up B
Usmash
Fair (first kick)
Dair

Ness
---
Side B
Dash attack
Fair
Utilt
Dtilt
Jab
Usmash (charge hitbox)
Dsmash (charge hitbox)
Nair (weak hitbox)

Lucas
---
Jab
Side B
Dtilt
Nair
Dair
Zair

Pikachu
---
Jab
Nuetral B
Dtilt
Utilt
Fair
Bair
Uair
Usmash (weak hitbox behind pikachu)
Nair (weak hitbox)
Dair (landing hitbox only)
Dsmash
Up B
Dash attack

Jigglypuff
---
Jab
Dair
Nair (weak hitbox)
Fair (weak hitbox)
Ledge attack

Lucario
---
Jab
Nuetral B (uncharged/charging hitbox)
Side B
Dair
Ftilt
Dtilt
Utilt
Nair (weak hitbox behind Lucario)
Down B

Lucario (aura 150%+)
---
Jab
Utilt
Nuetral B (charging hitbox)
Ftilt (first hit only)

Squirtle
---
Nuetral B
Side B
Jab
Dtilt
Ftilt
Utilt
Up B
Dair
Dash attack (weak hitbox)

Ivysaur
---
Side B (from a distance, not point blank)
Nuetral B
Up B (sourspot)
Ftilt
Dtilt
Utilt
Jab
Nair
Bair

Charizard
---
Nuetral B
Fair
Side B (debris)
Ledge attack (and yes, Squirtle's and Ivysaur's ignore the SA)
Jab
Dsmash
Up B
Usmash (first hit)

Marth
---
Jab
Side B (all versions)
Fair (untipped)
Nair (very beginning of the attack)

Ike
---
Jab
Up B

Olimar
---
Side B (purple pikmin)
Uair
Nair
Jab
Fsmash (white pikmin, weak hitbox)
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fair (white pikmin)
Bair (white pikmin)
Dash attack

ROB
---
Nuetral B (1st charge, uncharged)
Jab
Side B
Dsmash
Down B (uncharged only)
Ledge attack
Uair
Ftilt
Dtilt
Utilt
Dash attack

Mr. Game and Watch
---
Jab (you get pushed back though)
Nuetral B (pan and sausage)
Bair
Side B (#1-5)
Nair
Uair (first hit)
Dair (landing hitbox)
Fair (weak hitbox)
Dtilt
Up B

Snake
---
Jab
Side B (at point blank only)
Dair (all except last hit)
Nair ( " ")
Up B (cyper)
Usmash (first hit, not the missle)

Sonic
---
Jab
Utilt
Dtilt
Ftilt
Umash
Nair (weak hitbox)
Fair
Up B (spring)
Dash attack
Side B*
Down B*

The last two aren't safe to Super armor at all.

Miscellaneous
---
Corneria Arwing lasers
Halberd lasers
Pirate Ship catapult (no damage obviously, so no knockback at all)

Videos of the King

Alphatron
---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jv4rMer-CI
http://www.youtube.com/user/PKMNRookieCreek#p/u/3/XYubhiNlKd8

BadGuy
---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkRPXCHckhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLnZCftPf9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCKQIvDygbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OVqcGm_RzI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUmb1S_Aaf0

If I missed anything, somebody can point it out. I'll have vids of my lame Bowser and will update this Op with any useful info. As you can see, the Bowser vs. MK matchup just got a whole lot nicer. I also find it funny how Jiggs' tilts do 10% dmg each and therefore ignore his super armor. Even if you don't main Bowser, I' hope this list will be interesting to you. Discussion away!

 

[proteininja]

I just messaged bionic saying there needs to be a new bowser thread. lol. The problem with the crawl is it is slow and predictable. Almost every charcter can wait for you to commit to some type of action then approach low and in the air and own you. It just doesn't work in a tourney setting. I really think it needs to be dropped because its a lame *** excuse the wbr uses to say bowser has better match ups against spammers. I would prefer some of his other moves got a bit of super armor or were more disjointed from his hurtbox like dair and nair and upb. He is inside his shell for all three after all.

Basically think of it like this. Falco is spamming the crap out of you. You decide to crawl. you slowly inch up taking damage but not getting stunned. once you get close enough falco sh dair's you. get owned. I' don't think bowser is bad I just think that this SA is nearly useless.

 

[Bandit]

If you crawl from one side of the stage to the other taking the damage, then you screwed up. You can do more than use crawl to get across (shield anyone?). Bowser is really good, and his crawl is just an added bonus.

Once again, I have come across a thread where a main starts complaining about a unique buff to their character. You don't have to crawl just because you have it. Learn to use it better.

 

[Alphatron]

I just messaged bionic saying there needs to be a new bowser thread. lol. The problem with the crawl is it is slow and predictable. Almost every charcter can wait for you to commit to some type of action then approach low and in the air and own you. It just doesn't work in a tourney setting. I really think it needs to be dropped because its a lame *** excuse the wbr uses to say bowser has better match ups against spammers. I would prefer some of his other moves got a bit of super armor or were more disjointed from his hurtbox like dair and nair and upb. He is inside his shell for all three after all.

Basically think of it like this. Falco is spamming the crap out of you. You decide to crawl. you slowly inch up taking damage but not getting stunned. once you get close enough falco sh dair's you. get owned. I' don't think bowser is bad I just think that this SA is nearly useless.

I once read a post by you where you said that Cape was the only person in the WBR who knew what to do with Bowser. But Cape was the one who suggested and coded this "lame *** buff".

As Bandit said, you aren't supposed to use crawl in such a predictable fashion. And it can be used in a tourney environment if you use it well. Look at the following scenario.

SHFF Nair is a good approach tactic for Captain Falcon. If the first nair hits, he can dash grab you or follow up into a jab. If you shield the nair, you can't grab him if he spaced it well and he's got the frame advantage. Here's where the SA can come into play.

And did you not see Metaknight's section? Short hop dair is doing nothing. Same with other characters.

 

[JCaesar]

Thanks for the list. I think I might pick up Bowser and try him out, especially vs MK.

 

[Veril]

D: Bowser vs. Metaknight is a massive pain for MK. His only aerial that can really beat through that crawl is nair, which got nerfed HARD and requires MK enter the range of your up-b. If I don't get a low% gimp, Bowser will live forever against MK with good DI. MK, with the removal of up-air momentum canceling and given the insane power of Bowser's KO moves, doesn't have the same luxury.

The fact that you have an option that counters dash-canceled tilts... omg no MK Johns. Bowser is serious business.

 

[proteininja]

I've never really had a problem with MK, and on the note of Falcon's nair I have found that almost a fool proof counter is to upb out of shield. It has never failed because all falcon does with nair approach is press his crotch as deep as he can in your face.

My example with falco was to show that bowser can much morereliably approach a spamming target with airdodges and powershields.

Let me try to concentrate my point into an easily understood statement.

There is not a single situation where using crawl SA is an overall better decision than some other tactic in terms of safety, reliability, and simplicity.

I once read a post by you where you said that Cape was the only person in the WBR who knew what to do with Bowser. But Cape was the one who suggested and coded this "lame *** buff".

Everyone makes mistakes. I just get tired of people citing this as an all out buff when all it does is provide an option that is out shined by other more intelligent choices. At best it provides lulz against scrubby opponents who spam moves like pits side+b

Opinions?

 

[JCaesar]

Well I'm no Bowser expert, but considering that up-B OOS is such an amazing option for Bowser, I could see how crawl SA is basically superfluous. The best part about it is that you can't get shield-stabbed and it can mind**** your opponent if they aren't experienced vs Bowser.

I think it would be a lot more useful on dash personally. I know how Bowser likes to dashgrab, plus he'd have a lot more mobility with it. Just imagine superarmor on dashdance!

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm not near as well versed on Bowser as I am with Sonic, however I'm drooling at the idea of SA on dash rather than crawl.

But anyways I didn't know about all those uses. I tried to work the move into my game by doing dash->crouch and attack from there. I got mixed results with that though.

 

[JCaesar]

You could just as easily dash->shield->up-B though. About the only things up-B OOS can't punish are really long disjointed attacks (which the crawl SA probably wouldn't work on anyway) and MK's and DDD's dair camping.

Where's Gamesystem? I know he's well-versed in up-B OOS

 

[BG3]

Dashing may sound a little better for Bowser+. It's not as predictable.(I'm not suggesting a change)

 

[Plum]

There is not a single situation where using crawl SA is an overall better decision than some other tactic in terms of safety, reliability, and simplicity.

That's a gross overstatement. Did you even read the list of attacks he can crouch his way through?!

Imagine that my G&W has forced you into a very defensive spot, and your shield has taken some damage already. Your shield is already weak, so my next Bair is going to stab right through your shield and hit you before you ever get the chance to Up B. Or you can crouch through the entire Bair, take some damage but in exchange for actually punishing me this time and being able to either reset back to neutral and stop my aggression, or go on the offensive yourself.

There's going to be moments where your best bet is to shield an attack, but there's going to be times where your shield is too weak. Crouch and profit. And there's always Up B out of crouch...

 

[leafgreen386]

If there's anyone who ever said that crouch canceling in melee was useless, they had no idea what they were talking about at the time. This is a very similar concept, except it works based on damage dealt, and if it works, it always works, regardless of your own percent. Bowser may have upB OOS, but there will still be times when you'd rather take an attack and punish, either because your foe is spacing their aerials outside of your upB range or because your shield is in too sorry of a state to reliably pull off an upB.

And protein: Falcons that space their nairs won't be leaving themselves in your upB range like that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Has any bowser player ever considered that maybe they might want to use this so they can punish with a move other than up B? Like if Pit is crossing up a nair, you can either try to shield it and go for the up B (hit, Pit's nair likes to shield stab). Or you can tank the hit and d-smash the **** out of him <_<

Even if there are better options than Crouching SA most of the time....why would you complain? It's a free buff for bowser, who is currently an okay character.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I find the list of SA-able moves pretty cool. I had also thought that Bowser SA'd up to 10%. 7% works though.

And does anyone besides me ledge hop into Down-B? I call it my secret ninja art. I love doing that. I swear that I've never seen a single person use that as Bowser ever, besides me. Definitely good at killing. It also scares people that jump when you're on the ledge.

<3 Bowser. If I could get his red sprite transparent it would be in my current sig.

*Edit*
I got him fixed. =]

 

[Veril]

That list is epic... I'm impressed (and impressing me with data is pretty hard to do)

 

[Alphatron]

Well I had some spare time on my hands and figured I should do this. I accept your praise though!

Another thing about crouch SA is that it ruins your opponent's spacing. Just crawl and reposition yourself. It helps when you want to do something aside from Up B(which is usually the best option). Putting your opponent in your grab range by crawl is also very sexy.

SA>Halberd Laser and Corneria Arwings.

 

[Iamthemovie]

Lets not forget that your attacks will still be interrupted when you mistime your counterattack. I kinda wish dtilt has some brief SA frames in the beginning...

 

[Alphatron]

The need to time your counterattack is a good thing imo.

 

[proteininja]

That's a gross overstatement. Did you even read the list of attacks he can crouch his way through?!

Imagine that my G&W has forced you into a very defensive spot, and your shield has taken some damage already. Your shield is already weak, so my next Bair is going to stab right through your shield and hit you before you ever get the chance to Up B. Or you can crouch through the entire Bair, take some damage but in exchange for actually punishing me this time and being able to either reset back to neutral and stop my aggression, or go on the offensive yourself.

There's going to be moments where your best bet is to shield an attack, but there's going to be times where your shield is too weak. Crouch and profit. And there's always Up B out of crouch...

Let me show you the list of attacks that shield stops:

F****** ALL OF THEM!!!

Has any bowser player ever considered that maybe they might want to use this so they can punish with a move other than up B? Like if Pit is crossing up a nair, you can either try to shield it and go for the up B (hit, Pit's nair likes to shield stab). Or you can tank the hit and d-smash the **** out of him <_<

Even if there are better options than Crouching SA most of the time....why would you complain? It's a free buff for bowser, who is currently an okay character.

What if that pit uses a dair? Are you telling me that by the time he has closed the distance on you and begins an attack you will be able to crouch on reaction in the 1 frame you have? I find that difficult to believe, but perhaps you are playing slowmo brawl.

Crossing up does not prevent upb from shield, and when they decide to shield poke ftilt will show them exactly how effective that is.

Bowser is a fantastic character, but what I am complaining is not him having a useless addition. What angers me is when I ask for help on a falco matchup and people say "LOLOLZ LURN 2 CROUCH!" ITS USELESS. IT IS USELESS. I would prefer he had something useful or not at all, because as long as its there non-bowser mains who do nothing but theorycraft about him will always say, "Well he has SA on crouch that helps his matchups right?" no. it doesnt. its useless. Its like claw-hopping. claw hopping is great in theory, but no one wants to switch to bsticking to implement it optimally.

I doubt that this post will be the catalyst for its removal, but I hope it makes Veril think about the change at the very least.

 

[Plum]

Did you read my post all the way through?
Something tells me you didn't.

Do you turn to your shield when its already weakened? That's when I shieldstab you and punish you hard for shielding. You can't always rely on shielding, because that gets your *** punished hard. That's the great thing about crawl SA is that it gives you another option. Trust me... options are good.

You asked for a situation when crouch SA would be better than shielding, and I gave you one. And like Dark Sonic said, the range of attacks you can punish directly out of crouch with > the amount out of shield.

Shield weakens and eventually becomes too small to use at a moments notice, crawl doesn't.

And theorysmash? I play Boozer in friendlies, and play a Boozer regularly with both my G&W and DDD. I've seen crawl SA used effectively against me, and I've used it myself. That good enough?

 

[proteininja]

So what about the other 38 characters who don't have SA on crouch. I guess they just get there shield broken. Oh wait. They don't.

The shield recharge is so fast its laughable. I have only shield broken people WITH BOWSER because he has buffs to shield damage on f-smash and dair.

Yes I read your post to the end, but my rebutal is that no one has ever put that much shield pressure on me. ever. i can always do something to clear them out. if they are close enough to poke i can ftilt them. If they are closer they are eating an upb OOS. I have almost never had my shield break in b+ and when it did it was some joke around friendly where i kept holding up while trying to upb OOS, but forgot i had to reinput the up to do it, so my shield broken because i just held it too long.

I was watching the stream of 6.0 at hackfest. the one that everyone figured out ddd was broken. I didn't see any sheild breaks. I saw Guru lose to a lvl 5 sonic, but no shield breaks. That should say something about how impossible it is to shield pressure in B+. The only reason I shield break with bowser is becuase his fully charged forward smash can take out almost an entire shield by itself. No one else can do that.

Shielding is always the best decision if only because it is overpowered in brawl.

Edit: BTW Alphatron. Thank you for revitalizing the bowser character thread, and all of your work.

 

[BadGuy]

Ugh protien ninja, your post are giving me a head ache. First off, I'd like to thank the people working on brawl+ and creating this amazing bowser, with a fully functional move set that destroys anyone who dare gets close to him. And by the way, bowser doesn't need any buffs or nerfs. He's complete, learn to utilize what weapons he has to work with. Bowser can tank half the move set in the game by just crouching and you're complaining? Are you serious? It's not something you rely on, it's a tool. Learn to use it for the right situation and utilize the rest of bowser weapons. Being the one who suggested Bowser have a defense of some kinda against projectile spam to begin with, I don't think Bowser's tank crawl should be perfect, just functional. and it is. I personally believe anything that is too perfect ends up being broken.

Bowser's up b, is the ultimate close range attack, so use his tank crawl to up b your opponent, and then get close in and finish them off. And Bowser's shield breaking abilities are great! Don't give your opponent a chance to hit you back so they can recharge their shield, and bust it open with another forward smash or bowser bomb. Both attacks destroy half a shield effortlessly. Be creative, play smart, and use mind games. If you're opponent can figure out what you're doing, then you're playing all wrong. Bowser's gigantic frame is something that should be feared and creating constant pressure, it's up to you create that fear.

Also work on spacing, Bowser's spacing has to be perfect, gotta get those right angles for landing forward smash and getting early ko's. Same with Bowser bomb, it kills at 60, there's no reason to not use this move. Use mindgames and create some tricks so you can land them. If getting close to an opponent that's faster then you is difficult, stop trying to chase after them. Bowser's not slow, but he's not fast either, hold your ground and have them come to you. If projectile spam is giving you trouble, practice shielding and approaching, bowser's shield is huge, use it, and close in on your opponent.

And finally, I don't care how awesome you are with bowser, you're going to get hit, a lot. But that's okay, he can take it, it's in his design to get hit. In fact, luring your opponent into trading hits with him is a great strategy. The only character in the game that can out muscle bowser is ganondorf, so this stratedgy works often.

It seems like your problem is lack of practice, bowser is a difficult character to use, but taking time to figure him out and making use of what you have is worth it in the long run. It's like complaining that a rocket launcher is no good for battle simply because your arms are too weak to pick it up.

Take some notes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkRPXCHckhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLnZCftPf9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCKQIvDygbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OVqcGm_RzI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUmb1S_Aaf0

 

[RPGsFTW]

How to be a Bowser+ pro, by RPGs is a beast:

Fighting a small character? Tired of his ****? what do you do? Crawl through his attacks into Up-Bs, spaced Ftilts, etc.

Need mindgames? Ledgehop Down-B, ledgehop flame cancel, empty RAR into a reverse flame cancel, Jab -> Side-B (21%!? It's motha****in vBrawl Snake!), Jab-> Down-B (I think the Down-B can be DI'd, but who does that?), spaced Down-B to smash the ****er's hands who is holding on the ledge.

Bowser is a god, a gentlemen, a beast, is sexy, and makes other characters small time. When in doubt, go Bowser.

Take what I said into heart, and you will always win with Bowser. True Story.

 

[Alphatron]

You're welcome protein.

The Falco matchup is still pretty annoying. I don't really play anyone who's good with Falco, so I can't say much. Beyond the fact that you should never be crawling through laser spam to approach. Crawling all the way to your enemy through spam is a bad idea unless you can punish endlag from the projectile. And that's only possible vs. a good opponent if they were using projectiles to approach you.

 

[Plum]

So what about the other 38 characters who don't have SA on crouch. I guess they just get there shield broken. Oh wait. They don't.

The shield recharge is so fast its laughable. I have only shield broken people WITH BOWSER because he has buffs to shield damage on f-smash and dair.

Yes I read your post to the end, but my rebutal is that no one has ever put that much shield pressure on me. ever. i can always do something to clear them out. if they are close enough to poke i can ftilt them. If they are closer they are eating an upb OOS. I have almost never had my shield break in b+ and when it did it was some joke around friendly where i kept holding up while trying to upb OOS, but forgot i had to reinput the up to do it, so my shield broken because i just held it too long.

I was watching the stream of 6.0 at hackfest. the one that everyone figured out ddd was broken. I didn't see any sheild breaks. I saw Guru lose to a lvl 5 sonic, but no shield breaks. That should say something about how impossible it is to shield pressure in B+. The only reason I shield break with bowser is becuase his fully charged forward smash can take out almost an entire shield by itself. No one else can do that.

Shielding is always the best decision if only because it is overpowered in brawl.

Edit: BTW Alphatron. Thank you for revitalizing the bowser character thread, and all of your work.

BROKEN SHIELDS =/= SHIELD STAB.

BROKEN SHIELDS =/= SHIELD PRESSURE.

FFS.

Multihit moves like G&W's Bair, MK's Tornado and etc. aren't going to break a shield. That isn't what effective pressure/shield stabbing is. Diddy can Z drop a banana onto your shield, and then catch the banana with an aerial that's hitting your shield at the same time all while you are stuck in shield stun. That's not going to break a shield either. All these types of things do is put you in enough shield stun where you can't simply Up B OOS to stop me, and weaken your shield enough where I can hit you through it. That's what I'm getting at here.

I'll say it again. If I've been spacing aerials or projectiles outside of your Up B range, and have been continuously pestering your shield, its going to be too weak for it to take another attack at some point. Once that happens, and you try to shield my next attack in hopes of punishing with Up B OOS, you won't get the chance because my Bair or whatever move I'm using is going to hit you right out of your shield because you were relying on it far too much. Instead of shielding in that situation, you could have crouched, took the damage but still have punished me with something potentially much more painful than an Up B.

Maybe the characters you play against can't apply effective shield pressure, but there are certainly characters capable of effective shield pressure and shield stabs. Play my G&W, or even my scrubby MK and I'll guarantee you I punish you for constantly retreating into your shield when I'm on the offensive the way it sounds like you do. Maybe then you will decide to crouch through my pressure attacks as G&W, or like half my moveset as MK.

 

[cobaltblue]

Just a few thing BadGuy.

1. Snake can also out muscle Bowser and has better options for the most part.
2. Bowser Bomb? Just how do you work that in to 1v1 when the move has start up lag, cool down lag, and is not invincible nor has any SA during any portion of it? I didn't think any pro's used it outside of grabbing the edge quickly.

 

[BadGuy]

Just a few thing BadGuy.

1. Snake can also out muscle Bowser and has better options for the most part.
2. Bowser Bomb? Just how do you work that in to 1v1 when the move has start up lag, cool down lag, and is not invincible nor has any SA during any portion of it? I didn't think any pro's used it outside of grabbing the edge quickly.

1. Might've been true in vbrawl, but in brawl+ that's no longer the case, snake's close combat is inferior to bowser's.

2. Clearly you didn't watch a single video i posted, yes bowser bomb. I use it constantly. It's his 2nd strongest move, and kills at an unbelievably low percentage, it just takes some creativity to make it land. Bowser has an amazing amount of deph to his character, that most people over look. But, nobody wants to hear me ramble, watch the videos.

 

[matt4300]

1. Might've been true in vbrawl, but in brawl+ that's no longer the case, snake's close combat is inferior to bowser's.

2. Clearly you didn't watch a single video i posted, yes bowser bomb. I use it constantly. It's his 2nd strongest move, and kills at an unbelievably low percentage, it just takes some creativity to make it land. Bowser has an amazing amount of deph to his character, that most people over look. But, nobody wants to hear me ramble, watch the videos.

I wanna hear you ramble... I second bowser. I love hearing this stuff.

 

[BadGuy]

I wanna hear you ramble... I second bowser. I love hereing this stuff.

Lol, watch the youtube vids i posted, all vids of me in action. Subscribe to me if you wanna see more in the future, i'm always posting new videos.

 

[Veril]

Bowser's down-b is a very scary move, especially in doubles.

Fun fact, the initial grounded down-b hitbox (the 11 frame startup one, that pops a character up slighly to setup the aerial hit) combos into the strong down-b hitbox (don't have % or character specific, just remember having casually tested it a while back).

 

[BadGuy]

Most people forget Bowser can do that and that's how i usually trick people , and get it to land.

 

[Revven]

Also, if Bowser is as bad as you claim Protein how can Cape **** people with Bowser IN TOURNEY? He's obviously then not as bad as you say and it's just you not thinking out of the box.

Speaking of which, Cape should be posting here too.

 

[proteininja]

Also, if Bowser is as bad as you claim Protein how can Cape **** people with Bowser IN TOURNEY? He's obviously then not as bad as you say and it's just you not thinking out of the box.

Speaking of which, Cape should be posting here too.

OMFG When did I say bowser was bad!? Dude can you read?

Badguy I watched the first and last vids. no crouch SA. Please post a vid in which you use it effectively so I don't have to watch all of your vids.

 

[BadGuy]

Im still learning to use effectively. It's a difficult trick to effectively get down, but the point is, im trying. I just not good at complaining when it comes to stuff like this..

 

[proteininja]

BadGuy my point is the tactic is not effective. It is not worth learning to implement. It is as I have said numerous times useless, but not in the sense that it has no uses ever. In the sense that as a tool in his toolbox it has no use when compared to his other tools. Its some kind of wierd *** monkeywrenchhammerscrewdriver thing, when you have a perfectly good wrench, and a perfectly good screwdriver, and a perfectly good hammer.

IN THEORY this move is great. It has a good trade off. You take some damage to turn the momentum onto your opponent. HOWEVER in practice there are too many moves that your opponent can use that get you punished for crouching, and in a game that makes Bowser pay in a big way for every combo your opponent gets that is just not worth it. Bowser can be comboed into oblivion by a competent opponent IF you give them that chance, and crouching right before they hit with an attack that might not actually be stopped by the SA is like laying on your back and saying, "Please **** me." I'm sure that if you memorize the attack list, and get extremely good at reading you opponent frames before they hit you, then maybe this tactic is good for you, but if you could do that you would have much better ways of punishing your opponent than using crouch SA.

Whether they admit it or not, most people don't play Olimar because of the micro management involved to effectively use his pikmin. If I have to know what attacks I can stop with SA in every one of my matchups to use a tactic effectively I'm sorry but that is time I could be using to memorize the angles on my attacks and learning new combos and learning my opponent's character's weaknesses. It is just too much work for no reward because even if you did memorize all of the attacks on the list you would still have to be a mind reader to know which one your opponent is going to use.

Pros:
Mind Games
No flinch

Cons:
Still take damage
May not stop all attacks (leading into combos)
loses SA if you decide to retaliate with dtilt or other move

There are more items on the cons list but more importantly the consequences of failure are far greater than the rewards of success. That is my point. It is not worth the risk.

Bowser does not have problems with MK or Jiggly he can trade hits with them and his tank *** will win when they decide to go that way. Bowser's real weakness is combo characters. Characters that can turn one hit into a stock. He can get around spam just as well as anyone else with powershielding and airdodge and spacing. He can di out many of the less intense characters strings. It is the characters that have true combos on him that can wreck his face. So, the only matchup he needs help in is also the one in which his crouch is useless. You cannot let them start a combo.

Brawl+ is a game of risk vs reward. Rest is a perfect example. VERY high risk, but VERY high reward. This move just does not pay off with its high risk and low reward.

The other argument is, "Hey! Quit complaining! Its a free buff!" First of all, not a buff. Secondly, useless free stuff. When you get that publishers clearing house stuff or ads in the mail do you say, "Hey free stuff" no its junk that fills up and clutters your mailbox.

I want this junk out of our collective mailbox. As long as it remains people will try to legitimize it and justify it, but it is useless. We have better things to discuss.

Veril said he wants few changes made, but I hope he makes an exception because Bowser is a beast. He does not need this tool, and like many of other useless changes in b+ that are the legacy of a "throw a band-aid on it" mentality it needs to be removed. The wound has healed and it is time to tear that band-aid off in one quick stroke and show everyone our manly battle-scars. Real Bowsers don't wear little pink band-aids.

 

[proteininja]

I'd like to try and change the subject to something more productive since I think we talked this one to death. What are your favorite strategies to pull of with bowser?

Here is a list of mine:

down+b to get to the ledge
neutral air as a tech chase
neutral air to fsmash.(if they miss the tech it COMBOS OMFG!!!1!)
using ftilt angled up to foil just about every approach in the game
ledge hopped down+b(only every once in a while it is risky)
jab1 to side b( > 22% damage and it is a combo! lolol)
up throw to whatever i want on fast fallers
utilt combo at 0 percent (too easy)
running upsmash whenever they want to get down
spacing forward airs
up+b OOS
and last but not least:
GIMPYFISH COMBO!!! (get some)

These are just a few of my little tricks, but I really would like to hear what other bowsers are doing so I can incorporate your tactics into my game.

Hopefully we can all improve in this way.

 

[Alphatron]

Will respond to this in depth later today. I'm currently trying to make a changelists from vbrawl to near gold Bowser. Thankfully, all of the vbrawl information is already laid out so I won't need to do much on that part.

Also, UpB Out of crouch>dtilt out of crouch. So is grab/dash grab.

 

[Andarel]

Alphatron, toss me a PM later today, especially if you're using PSA for your changelist. I'll help you out since I already have a lot of it done.

 

[Alphatron]

I will if I'm able to come online. Thing is, the main source of internet for me is the Wii internet channel. Hasn't stopped me before though.