Is Marth the new Marth?

[The Halloween Captain]

In another forum there was a character discussion concerning who is the new _____ in Brawl for each melee character. Some people thought Brawl Marth was the closest replacement to melee Marth, others thought Lucario was because of F-smash and tippers. Opinions?

 

[Kitamerby]

Nope. Marth has seemed to have lost his standing since the last game. He seems to have actually climbed just a little bit higher for some silly reason. Lucario has definitely filled in his old spot, though.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

This is irrelevant imo.

Counterpicking wise, Brawl's Marth seems a lot similar to Melee's Marth.
Lucario doesn't even remind Marth; he is a dog lol.

 

[Kitamerby]

This is irrelevant imo.

Counterpicking wise, Brawl's Marth seems a lot similar to Melee's Marth.
Lucario doesn't even remind Marth; he is a dog lol.

We'll take that last bit as a compliment.

I mean, just look at some of the similarities!


Powerful Aerials.
Smashes with incredible range.
Tippers.
Outrange most characters.
Disjointed hitboxes.
Counter move.
Chaingrab.
Fair-Dair.
Combos.
Two eyes.
Two arms.
Sharp objects protruding from being.
Funny pants.
Blue hair.
Fuzzy.
Smell funny when wet.

 

[IDK]

my first reaction to that title was wtf?, but i get it. my answer is no. i was marth in melee and diddy now, but marth is my alt, and he is played MUCH differently and not sure but i don't think he will end up as high in the tier list.

EDIT: i do agree with the lucario thing

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Maybe it's just me, but Lucario feels to slow and heavy to remind me of Marth.

 

[Kitamerby]

Maybe it's just me, but Lucario feels to slow and heavy to remind me of Marth.

Okay, back to semiserious mode.
It's funny, because Lucario's a midweight, but because of his high short hop, he can perform many of Marth's old and new combos. If you think about it, he's incredibly similar to Marth.

I mean, just look at their movesets.

Fair - Combo starter. Highly spammable.
Nair - Quick high-knockback move with no landing lag. Great KO aerial.
Dair - Makes enemies fear being below Marth/Lucario. Both have extreme gimping possibilities, do a bunch of damage, although Lucario's is a bit more useful and doesn't spike. =\
Bair - HUGE range Aerial KO move.
Utilt - Sweeping motion makes a great substitute KO move if tippered if they somehow live to high %. Great Combo starter.
Ftilt - Poker. Great range and speed, mainly for poking and getting people out of your face quickly, and can be used in combos at low %, but not so much as it gets higher, because your time you spend stuck in the cooldown pose keeps you from catching up again before they can get away and regroup.
Dtilt - Poker #2. Blazingly fast, gets people out of your face like nothing else. Also both can be combo starters at low %.
Jab - Get Out Of My Face! Can make some pretty cool mixups, like Jab(-Jab)-SideB
Neutral B - Wrecks shields (AS Charge), longest ranged attack, chargeable, incredibly powerful KO move at mid-high %, quick to come out if uncharged...
Forward B - Can be chained together, VERY hard to spotdodge, great range, can be quick, messes with momentum, though Marth's is much more spammable...
Down B - Counter. Nuff Said. Marth's is a bit more useful/easier to hit with, though, while Lucario's will kill reliably. Both mess with air momentum greatly and make very good moves if done on reaction or off a prediction.
Up B - Quick as hell, but easy to edgehog. However, both are still extremely great recovery moves and are MUCH better than they first appear to the untrained eye...
Dsmash - Hits both sides (duh), deceptive range, powerful KO move, both have similar range.
Usmash - Will hit people too close to his sides, incredible duration, insane priority over air moves, similar stances, but not great KO moves in their own right until very high %s...
Fsmash - HUGE range. TIPPERS! Great spacing tool, incredible range, great duration, quick, great KO move, amazing range, all around awesome smashes.

And lastly, they both have very long disjointed hitboxes (Marth's are slightly longer, though. =\), great sweeping motions to many attacks, great range, great KO ability, can combo (Marth to a degree can still land consecutive hits and strains...), amazing aerials, but not too shabby ground games. They're both doing great in tournaments, although Marth is a bit more popular (most likely due to him being older and thus much more widely known, and the fact that he kicks *** probably helps, too), and both have very few bad matchups, but those few bad matchups are pretty darn bad.

Oshi-I got off topic again. <<
Bleh, Melee and Brawl Marth are similar enough for the same things to apply. =P

 

[Bomber7]

One thing is for sure: Meele Marth and Brawl Marth are not the same. He's slowed down a bit, he's not as powerfull, though his movement is pretty much the same and his moves are the same, he hasn't really been downgraded too much but his is "fair" now.

 

[MxGm]

I don't think so. I still agree with Kitamerby though. Marth from Melee is somewhat different from Brawl, he's
just slower.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I don't think you can use combos as a way to say they're similar, because if you did, then Lucario would look like a lot of characters from Melee. Also, Lucario can tend to be on spammy, campy, side.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth has no projectile, and that is important for Lucario. And their recoveries are very different. End of thread. Amd IMO this thread is kind of pointless...

^good point, that is true too TKD+ITA+Mar=

 

[∫unk]

You guys realize comparing any character to melee marth will be "slowed down"... because brawl is slower than melee.

Relatively though Brawl Marth is in a different place than Melee Marth. Brawl Marth doesn't have the easy throw to tipper set ups or have ridiculous range anymore. This makes Brawl Marth a much less noob-friendly character.

 

[FrostByte]

Fthrow to tipper is much easier ot land in Brawl than it is in Melee. In Melee there was a guaranteed way to escape at low %, not sure about brawl though.

Marth is much harder to punish in Brawl than in Melee. No wavedashing OOS to catch his Fsmash or dash dancing to bait lag on his aerials.

 

[∫unk]

frostbyte... there was so many things wrong with that statement.

brawl's f-throw to f-smash works on some characters (doesn't even work well against people with good DI) between 0-5% but even then it's pointless because it doesn't set up for the edgeguard like it did in melee (which is why it was so good).

and you wouldn't tipper in mid air in melee you would tipper when the opponent missed the tech, which because of the speed of melee wasn't exactly an uncommon thing to happen.

f-throw to f-smash is stupid for low percents in melee because you should be comboing with f-air instead, and if it's near the edge you can follow f-air with d-air.

 

[FrostByte]

I don't exactly know what you're trying to say... Melee Fthrow (at high level play) doesn't lead into anything but regrab below 7%. Above that, it's a techchase.

You'd tipper in midair only when the opponent missed their DI, Marth's Fthrow isn't deceptive enough to make people miss techs.

Whether you choose to fair or Fsmash isn't the issue since you will use different ones for characters with different falling speeds.

 

[∫unk]

>< How many times do I have to say I'm wasn't talking about Melee's f-throw to f-smash. Please read carefully.

But honestly who cares this is Brawl forums if you want to talk about Melee Marth there's a forum for that. This thread specifically is to compare the two not to exclusively talk about melee Marth's throw set ups like you insist upon doing.

 

[FrostByte]

I'm pretty sure this thread was comparing the two. And that's what I've been doing.

YOU were the one that brought up throws. I just made a comment on what you said.

 

[∫unk]

I'm pretty sure this thread was comparing the two. And that's what I've been doing.

YOU were the one that brought up throws. I just made a comment on what you said.

LMAO. You made an incorrect comment, then proceed to back up your incorrect claims with faulty logic. Too funny.

What was my original point again? OH YEAH YOU CAN'T REALLY COMPARE THE TWO IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME.

The only comparison I originally made was that there aren't easy throw set ups like in Melee, so Melee Marth was more noob friendly because he actually had a grab game and he had more range. THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE METAGAME OF BRAWL MARTH IN COMPARISON WITH MELEE, IT'S TALKING ABOUT HOW EASY IT IS TO LEARN HIGH LEVEL PLAY WITH THE MARTH. If you don't understand the difference then you're hopeless.

You try to compare the grab game (which I'm not sure how you're even "comparing" when you claim to not know Brawl Marth's grab game then go off saying how it's easier to f-throw f-smash at low percents in Brawl) then talk about how it's harder to punish brawl marth LMAO. OF COURSE IT'S HARDER TO PUNISH... Brawl is a defensive game and Marth is one of the best defensive characters.

You obviously don't know brawl marth enough to comment was my point. I'm done arguing about nothing to someone who isn't capable of reading other peoples comments carefully as well as just being stupid (or acting stupid).

 

[Cril]

i heard from somewhere that lucario is the new marth O_o

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Read page one.

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Read page one.

Can you tell I'm following your posts so I can post something better than you in every thread?

Lucario is a fat 'n slow dog with no connections to Marth at all

(Not by blood nor by marriage. I think.)

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Er, when I said read page one I was referring to Cril.

And no fairz

 

[FrostByte]

LMAO. You made an incorrect comment, then proceed to back up your incorrect claims with faulty logic. Too funny.

I don't know brawl Marth as much as I know Melee Marth, but I know that statement I made is true, explained later.

What was my original point again? OH YEAH YOU CAN'T REALLY COMPARE THE TWO IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME.

I don't care what your original point was. I saw a statement you made and commented on it. I'm gonna be a ******* and make a baseless claim that you cannot read, or some other baseless insult.

THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE METAGAME OF BRAWL MARTH IN COMPARISON WITH MELEE, IT'S TALKING ABOUT HOW EASY IT IS TO LEARN HIGH LEVEL PLAY WITH THE MARTH. If you don't understand the difference then you're hopeless.

I wasn't replying to this thread since it hardly makes sence anyway. I was replying to the post above me.

You try to compare the grab game (which I'm not sure how you're even "comparing" when you claim to not know Brawl Marth's grab game then go off saying how it's easier to f-throw f-smash at low percents in Brawl)

I can tell you that Marth's early grab game in Melee was escpable. I know for a fact that in brawl, your DI counts towards part of a mixup. Momentum does not shift to neutral after a Marth Fthrows in brawl.

OF COURSE IT'S HARDER TO PUNISH... Brawl is a defensive game

Please, just beacause Brawl has a more defensive engine doesn't override the fact that Marth is harder to punish. The only way that my comment could be incorrect is if Brawl Marth was easier to punish.

Marth is one of the best defensive characters.

Lol.

Don't even try to justify that.

You obviously don't know brawl marth enough to comment was my point.

And you know Melee Marth enough to comment?

 

[JesiahTEG]

First off, I remember a lonnnnnnnnng time ago when I argued online with Frostbyte that Pivot Fsmash with Marth in Melee was nearly impossible and he made me look like a noob lol...But I apologized so it was all good. I was a n00b back then xD. Second, Frostbyte your sig is the shiznite.

 

[∫unk]

Lol.

Don't even try to justify that.

Please, just beacause Brawl has a more defensive engine doesn't override the fact that Marth is harder to punish. The only way that my comment could be incorrect is if Brawl Marth was easier to punish.

And you know Melee Marth enough to comment?

I'll admit. You probably know more about Melee Marth than I do. I never played in major tournaments and only won lame $50 gift cards locally (Santa Barbara). I knew how to do wavedash, waveshine, l-cancel etc. but I didn't bother to learn how to speed up ledge drop moonwalk SHDL etc. So no, I didn't know everything about the game. But I knew enough to be competitive.

A few things though:
1) Of course you can get out of grab in melee, like f-throw u-throw. Level 9's do it. It's just that most people (including pros) don't.
2) EL said it himself and I agree. Marth is one of the best defensive characters in Brawl. I'm sorry you haven't played enough Brawl to understand this.
3) I was agreeing with your comment about Marth being harder to punish.. but that's true for most characters in Brawl so you're just stating the obvious.

Thank you for reading my post carefully this time, but I'm through arguing with you. I'm here to share information and talk about Brawl Marth... you haven't contributed anything to this community and come in here repeatedly saying the same thing which I don't even give a **** about because it's Melee.

 

[Shaya]

Marth truly is a defensive character.

At least he has the untapped potential to be a defensive character based on how you play.

I like to play Marth as a fortress and he is adept in many many ways to maintain such a thing. Marth aggressisve can out-do most characters in the game, but when you get down to the MKs, ROBs, D3s, Lucario, etc. who are really pressuring your aggression to a point where you'll be most likely be punished (and then most likely lose due to not being able to switch to defense effectively), that's when you start to go "defense is the best offense". And I live it and breathe it, even the "other characters" are a lot more of a pushover in a defensive stance, Marth's ability to just stand still and punish everything an enemy throws at you is what is most likely the future of high-level Marth'n. But don't take that as "stand still, slash, repeat", because Marth can be aggressive, and Marth has the speed, whenever the opportunity arises he can 'go for it' without much hesitation.

 

[∫unk]

First off, I remember a lonnnnnnnnng time ago when I argued online with Frostbyte that Pivot Fsmash with Marth in Melee was nearly impossible and he made me look like a noob lol...But I apologized so it was all good. I was a n00b back then xD. Second, Frostbyte your sig is the shiznite.

People keep telling me the same thing in Brawl.. can't fox trot one way then immediately turn around and smash.. *sigh*

 

[FrostByte]

Alright, everything's cool now. Forget that first argument.

I never will believe Marth is a top defensive character when so many other characters have more defensive options. He looks like one of the best defensive *punishers* and one of the *safest* characters on offense.

When you say defensive, what are you guys actually talking about because it's such a wide term?

 

[Pierce7d]

If I stand still with Marth in the middle of FD, you can't really do anything safe. He's very, very defensive.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

i'm pretty sure lucario will never place like marth did in melee. but then again, who knows if marth will place like marth did in melee either.

if anyone has evidence agaisnt this statement no need to hsow it since i'm not even sure and have no basis for this besides opinion

 

[grandmaster192]

How the heck is Marth a defensive character?

I think he's the 2nd best offensive character behind Metaknight. He has one of the safest appoaches, one of the best edge gaurds, and a great tech chase. On top of all that, he's lightning fast with all of his attacks. I don't get how he could be a defensive character when all of his strong points are offensive.

Furthermore, he doesn't have a projectile. That means a character that does have one can force him to approach.

I'm just not seeing this best defensive character Marth you guys speak of.

 

[Yuna]

Lucario is not the new Marth. Stop claiming this without anything to back it up.

Oooh, Lucario can combo. And? Oooh, Lucario has a tipper-sweetspot. And? So do many other people.

 

[Pierce7d]

How the heck is Marth a defensive character?

I think he's the 2nd best offensive character behind Metaknight. He has one of the safest appoaches, one of the best edge gaurds, and a great tech chase. On top of all that, he's lightning fast with all of his attacks. I don't get how he could be a defensive character when all of his strong points are offensive.

Furthermore, he doesn't have a projectile. That means a character that does have one can force him to approach.

I'm just not seeing this best defensive character Marth you guys speak of.

Unless your name is Pit, Falco, or Fox, you do not have a projectile good enough to make me approach if I don't want to. Perhaps I'll get bored of perfect shielding Wolf's blaster before he gets tired of firing it, since it IS safer to him.

If Falco does his SHDouble Lazer, then I have no problem standing there and shielding the grounded ones. In fact, this often baits Falcos into shooting many grounded lazers, which is when I jump over and Fair him, else I Ftilt him after getting close enough from the double lasers.

Pit's arrows are easy to perfect shield (well, for me since my bro mains him), but since he can mix up the timing by charging the arrow, I'm bound to get hit eventually, and Pit players are more campy, and have better range, so I'm forced to approach there.

Oh, and Olimar MIGHT force me to approach if he starts spamming Pikman.

Most other projectiles are easy to perfect shield, and can be jabbed away. Even Toon Link, camper extraordinare, has slow moving projectiles that are easy to shield, though I prefer to approach him anyway since my range is just so beast against his he makes me feel like a bully.

And rofl. Don't get me started if the stage has platforms. That wipes Wolf, Olimar, and Toon Link off the map in terms of camping me out.

Lucario is not the new Marth. Stop claiming this without anything to back it up.

Oooh, Lucario can combo. And? Oooh, Lucario has a tipper-sweetspot. And? So do many other people.

He said it was his opinion. Geez Yuna, you know your stuff usually better than the next guy, but you sure light up easy.

 

[GimmeAnFSharp]

He said it was his opinion. Geez Yuna, you know your stuff usually better than the next guy, but you sure light up easy

Yuna seems to come to every discussion with a lighter in hand just in case someone else can't get her fuse going.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

umm in trems of standing no..........

but everyone under S8 and MK its to early to tell.

 

[grandmaster192]

@pierce
Those aren't the only characters that force you to approach. DDD, Rob, Snake and Lucario are --in adition to characters you mentions -- are characters Marth has to approach. When you add Falco and Toon Link and Wolf in there as well, that's pretty much every good character with a projectile. And all of them turn Marth in the aggreser. Marth simply can't be considered one of the better defensive characters when there are so many other good characers with either more defensive options or either can force Marth into being the aggreser.

With the way you make Marth' defensive game sound, I can say metaknight is one of the best defensive characters for the exact same reasons. He can perfect shield projectiles, stop some with the tornado, and shut down approaches with his insane priority. On top of that, he can shield grab well because of his grab range.

However, he can still be forced into approaching due to his lack of projectile. Metaknight, like Marth, can play great defence against mediocre characters; however the better one's can and will force you to approach.

Marth is an offensive character. That's where his strenght is.

 

[Pierce7d]

Why would I ever have to approach Snake, or Lucario if I didn't want to . D3 I might have to move around a little, but I'm not forced to approach him at all. R.O.B.s projectiles are far from spammable, and I don't even have to perfect shield those.

Sorry, but if I'm up a stock, I'll be patient as hell. My best friend mains D3, and he complains about my camping, lol.

Do I play Marth offensively? Yes. I started playing offensively, and then after watching P.C. Chris play, I adapted a defensive style which actually brought MORE success, and seemed to impressed many. However, I prefer to play offensively and have since reverted. Now I am working toward combining the two styles.

Yes, Metaknight can be more defensive than Marth. He's faster, and has more range. That doesn't stop Marth from being defensive.

Falco, Pit and Fox can definitely force Marth on the offense. D3, Wolf, and Toon Link can try, but it is highly depended on the stage. It's unadvisable to play defensive against Snake, but doable. If you can't play defensive against R.O.B., you have no patience.

Considering that's only 8 characters I mentioned, out of a roster of 35+, I think I can say Marth is pretty defensive as well.

Marth is good because he's defensive AND offensive AND safe on offense. He's not the MOST defensive character in the game. He has counter and Dolphin Slash, but lacks a reflector which would give him that insanely broken edge. He is still has one of the best defensive stats in the game though.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

I think that marth main weakness lies with the over use of his attacks and the fact that he can't edgeguard character's mostly like

Snake(due to his god-like tanking and recoverly)and

Metakight(due to the fact marth need to really careful edgeguarding him or get stagedspiked)

Which force Marth to use on his safer options and straight up kill moves, which mostly Marth could edge guard anyone else.

As for the discussion if he's more defensive character or offensive character, he seems to me to be well both and if he plays more on one side or the other is due to the player.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Lucario is not the new Marth. Stop claiming this without anything to back it up.

Oooh, Lucario can combo. And? Oooh, Lucario has a tipper-sweetspot. And? So do many other people.

That's what I have been saying...

Now I am into this debate on the Lucario Boards (also they/someone think that Lucario's recovery is harder to gimp than Marth's). If anyone's interested just go here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181832&page=4

 

[Pierce7d]

WHAT?!?! Marth can't edge-guard Snake? Marth might not be able to kill Snake on the edgeguard unless the Snake plays sloppy or the Marth has a really nice set up, but he can definitely scratch in quite a few hits, and free hits on Snake are exactly what Marth needs to Fsmash him over the death-line.

You're right about Meta-Knight though.

Only the scrubbiest Marth players suffer from stale moves. The only move that Marth should ever have stale is Dancing Blade IMO. I stale it on purpose, because it still serves it's purpose when stale, and refreshes my other moves very well.

That's what I have been saying...

Now I am into this debate on the Lucario Boards (also they/someone think that Lucario's recovery is harder to gimp than Marth's). If anyone's interested just go here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181832&page=4

I'm on my way. ROFL.