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Is Marth S-Tier?

-Nana-

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Marth is better than G&W what are you talking about?
I'm talking about no he's not ha. What are you talking about? GAW does better against more of the cast than Marth and he has multiple spammable kill moves. Marth might counter GAW like Pierce said but he is not an all around better. I'm at school and I'm not gonna get into this discussion right now but GAW is an amazing character and he's also better than Falco, ROB and D3 IMO.

Personally I think one of Marth's harder matchups is DK and I think he should get bumped to top tier before Marth should.
 

BacklashMarth

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I'm talking about no he's not ha. What are you talking about? GAW does better against more of the cast than Marth and he has multiple spammable kill moves. Marth might counter GAW like Pierce said but he is not an all around better. I'm at school and I'm not gonna get into this discussion right now but GAW is an amazing character and he's also better than Falco, ROB and D3 IMO.

Personally I think one of Marth's harder matchups is DK and I think he should get bumped to top tier before Marth should.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......wait....you're serious. :ohwell:
 

Pierce7d

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Personally I think one of Marth's harder matchups is DK and I think he should get bumped to top tier before Marth should.
Agreed about the matchup, disagree with DK being better than Marth. I think this is about even now. But I don't think DK is better than Marth. DK has a huge character frame, and can be comboed, whereas Marth gets out of nearly EVERYTHING. This results in DK taking damage at a much faster rate than Marth on average. Also, DK is excellent at keeping you out, but lacks in actual zoning (downB is too good though) when compared to Marth. Lastly, DK's shield pressure game isn't even 1/3rd as effective as Marth's and a shield pressure game is TOO valuable in this game where the shield is vastly overpowered.

MK has an amazing shield pressure game with Dairs, Dtilts, Tornado, and other stuffs.
Snake with Ftiilt and grenades
G&W with Dtilt and Bair
Marth with Fair, Dtilt, Nair, and Shield Breaker

Falco, D3, and DK all lack in this department, but at least Falco can spam lazers at your shield, and D3 can simply grab you. DK's grab range is good . . . but not THAT good.

Simply put, DK is better on defense than he is on offense, which is fine in this game, but he doesn't have the tools he needs to ascend to top tier.
 

iRJi

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A repost for Pierce from our crew thread, thought that everyone else would like to see what me and Pierce was talking about:

Lately I been comparing the game to something that makes more logical sense then what it is right now. To me the game is like chess. Every character in the game is a piece of the game, and every game of chess needs a strategy in order to play. You can't just run into the game with out knowing how to move the pieces or you will just get bashed by someone who knows the game on a deeper level.

More on the strategy note. Marth and a few other character to me are concidered the queen in the chess game. (No not because of his girlish hair) The queen in chess has the will to move freely in almost any direction it desires but despite the fact that the queen can move as much as it wants, it has it's personal flaws. Marth is like that.

Marth has his D-Slash that has invincible frames on 1 making it that he can punish moves that normal characters can't punish (jabbing included -_-, but moves that hit shield and making him a bit harder to gimp.) He has dancing blade that racks up damage for any dumb move that your opponate decides to do and it links to a few of marths other moves making him a good damage builder. His fair is used as a Offence/Defence move since it covers your whole front and it auto cancels, and at high damage it can be used to kill. His down tilt can be used to poke people's shields and from that leads to either fair's or dancing blade. Also lets not forget the move counter, How can we ever forget that.

Of course there's the thing called shield in the ga... Wait never mind... Marth has a move called shield breaker that Kills your shield, go figure.

Now in chess just because a piece is very powerful doesn't mean it has no flaws. In the hands of a weaker player its not as much as a threat, in a stronger players hands it still has its personal flaws. Same phycics can be applied to Marth.

Although he can use dancing blade to punish the opponates moves, if a carful player knows whats going to happen he can shield the dancing blade and then counter punish. D-slash is pretty much just a gut feeling that you need to have to avoid, or know the situations for the opponate to come out with it. Shield breaker isn't that scary, just don't be dumb and move out of the way when you see it. Fair is annoying, thats the bottom line of it, but still ca be stopped. Since marth is floaty he can do a Fair moving foward and a retreating fair, but he isn't a Jigglypuff floaty or a Wario floaty either meaning, you can still get him if you have something that out ranges him. Keep this in mind also, It doesn't have to be a air attack either. If he fairs you can use something like Lucarios F smash, Metaknights F smash, Etc. that can stop his fair game. I don't really want to hear " Oh the moves are too slow it won't work" because thats BS. Marths game only has so many approches and you should know when he is going to move in for a fair so be on your toes to punish it.

And now the conclusion. If you play your pieces right you can kill the queen or put them into a postition where you have an advantage. You can't really play against Marth on aggression because that might result in death for blindly rushing in, but marth has his flaws, just like everyone else. Marth to me might not be S tier, But prob. can be rated higher then he is now.

I think that comparison might sum it all up.
 

Steel

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I'm talking about no he's not ha. What are you talking about? GAW does better against more of the cast than Marth and he has multiple spammable kill moves. Marth might counter GAW like Pierce said but he is not an all around better. I'm at school and I'm not gonna get into this discussion right now but GAW is an amazing character and he's also better than Falco, ROB and D3 IMO.

Personally I think one of Marth's harder matchups is DK and I think he should get bumped to top tier before Marth should.
While DK is indeed one of Marth's tougher match ups, i simply cannot see Marth being at a disadvantage against him if that is what you were implying.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Here' my opinion: I used to say, that Marth's match-up's are a bit overrated. I agree that I said it too often and in a non-sensitive way but I still think it's true. In the current tier list, he should definitely be "Top tier". There is just no way that he's an entire tier worse than ROB or G&W (I also think that Marth is a better character than ROB). Honestly, if Marth's match-up's were as good as you people say he'd have to be #2 on the tier list. Only one truly bad match-up? That's the same level as MK! The match-up thread says that he has a 55:45 with Snake and D3 but the problem here is that some people have different interpretations of these numbers and think it's neutral.
I think Marth has the disadvantage against King Dedede and Donkey Kong. If played both match-up's from both side (except DK vs Marth....I never use DK) and I just noticed the difference. Miss your Sh fair once and DK has almost a guaranteed fsmash (and missing attacks just for the sake of zoning isn't unusual for Marth). I don't think it's an even match-up.

This is overall the problem with Marth and in my opinion his biggest weakness (It might be true, that he has no safe killing move but he dishes out so much damage that it barely matters....): He has 0 room for error, if the opponent can outrange him. If he doesn't hit DK with one of his aerials or tilts, he gets fsmashed. Marth has to take a risk, that has rather little reward (seriously risking to get fsmash'd just to land an aerial?) and he has to do a lot of work to get around this - more than DK (or Dedede in his case). There are other cases, that aren't that dangerous such as ROBs ftilt, Wolfs bair or Toon Links bair but these aern't as bad. I know most people will say:"We're talking about the highest level of play. Such mistakes won't happen." If that's the case Marth is only really good in theory since everybody makes mistakes. Ken, Azen and M2K made mistakes, Roy_R makes mistakes now. They are on the highest level but that doesn't prevent them from making mistakes. And I don't think Marth can afford more than one small mistakes against DK or Dedede...

What does that mean: In theory aka if Marth is played perfectly he has only MK as a disadvantage. But if he makes a mistake and just misses his opponent it could be a DK fsmash or a Snake ftilt. And mistakes just happen, no matter how good you are...and I doubt that you can play that perfectly. That would require you the predict every move of your opponent perfectly and always space 100% error-free. That's not possible IRL.

This is why I think, that Marth's match-up's are overrated. But that still doesn't prevent me from thinking that he belongs in Top tier in the current list. I always considered him top tier. Even if what I said was true, Marth still only had 4 disadvantages which isn't bad at all and would still grant him a spot in top tier (something that I doubt when it comes to ROB....).

However, if we talk about the Tier list as Pierce7d thinks, then I think that Snake, MK and King Dedede should be S tier. King Dedede is debatable but I don't think he's a tier below Snake (even if some people argue that Snake is the best character and MK is better than Dedede) or in the same tier as ROB or Marth...
 

Steel

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DK is going to fsmash you if you miss a dtilt or fair? lolwat

ill add more later, cus you're wrong.. by a lot
 

~ Gheb ~

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No, I'm not. I've played that match several times. If you're too far to hit him, the fsmash will indeed hit Marth
 

Emblem Lord

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That thing is pretty ****ing slow dude.

You would have to like...run into it.

lol.

You're doing it wrong.

And as you said...through your perception you think that 55/45 is neutral. Obviously the Marth boards does not share your perception.

And I although I HATE bringing up personal experience, I have taken Atomsk down in the past with my Marth and he has done the same to me. And I never felt like I was outclassed. I just felt like I had to be slightly more careful.

And why the hell do you keep spewing nonsense about Marth's match-ups? They don't require perfect play. Where the hell did this garbage theory come from. It requires what any match-up requires. Experience, smart play, and being at a high level.

Match-ups will change depending on what level you are playing at. Are you a high level Marth that understands the DK match-up?

I doubt it.

There ratios represent gameplay once both sides know the match-ups and are at a high level of play.

If you aren't there yet or have trouble envisioning it then how the hell can you comment?

And BTW...DK doesn't even need to make a mistake vs Marth to get hit. If Marth blocks anything from DK other then retreating Bair, Marth can lay into him. That's pretty much the MAIN reason why Marth does go even with him and ROB too for that matter. They have the range advantage, but they aren't even half as safe as he is.

Honestly though missing a fair shouldn't result in eating an f-smash. The f-smash would have had to start already in which case you basically let it hit you. Pay the **** attention then. DK isn't punishing Marth with his f-smash. That's just not happening. Marth had to be a moron and throw out random smashes for DK to spotdodge to get hit by f-smash.
 

~ Gheb ~

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the 45;55 thing is not my interpretation. Many people think like that. I was merely pointing out, that it leads to misunderstandings.

There's still one thing you have to explain: If Marth's match-up's are that good and killing is his only "true" weakness (which is only half ture) why do you always say that he isn't that good and that he won't be the best character should MK ever be banned? This obviously doesn't make sense. Marth has three match-up's that aren't in his favour and 2 are very close. Why do you keep saying, that Marth shouldn't be on the same level as Snake, who has worse match-up's.
 

Zankoku

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If 55:45 is neutral, why shouldn'5 56:44? It's only 1 point off. And from there, shouldn't 57:43 be neutral, too? I mean, it's not like it's a 60:40 or anything.
 

Emblem Lord

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That has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with my extreme cynicism.

And it also depends on your definition of worse match-ups.

Anyway, I also said that I think there should always be two tier list. One purely based on match-ups and one based on tourney results to accurately reflect the metagame.

On the match-up tier list Marth is easily 4th maybe even higher.

On the tourney based list he drops a bit due to less representation and due to losing to MK.
 

Nic64

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On the match-up tier list Marth is easily 4th maybe even higher.
out of curiosity, who is third in your opinion assuming MK and GAW have the fewest bad matchups? honestly I think marth is next in line in terms of being hardest to counter, although characters like snake or DDD are widely thought to have bigger advantages
 

AndrewCarlson

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I remember reading from the Smash Back Room members that the reason Marth wasn't in Top Tier was because he has to work twice as hard and cannot afford to make as many mistakes. When you look at previous Tier Lists, all the Top Tier characters had traits that allowed them to easily dominate the match. High Tier characters, on the other hand, also had several powerful traits but had to be played more carefully than the Top Tier characters. They might have done well against some of the Top Tier characters, but overall, they themselves did not possess the qualitites to be in the same class.
 

∫unk

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From experience and theory, I'd say Marth has a slight advantage on DK.

DK has a very hard time getting inside your wall. He can't space as well as you and he lags more after everything but b-air.

Only thing you have to learn is to be careful near the edge because they have the option of standing almost at the center of the stage and still hit you ><

Grounded Marths have a harder time against DK because his down b and d-tilt range.
 

feardragon64

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Marth has this strange way of making people at higher levels of play work a bit harder to win. Agreed, Marth sometimes "has to work harder" than other characters who don't really have to think as much, but he makes his opponent work harder too. Dolphin slash means a lot of characters can't depend on chain grabs. Dancing blades means their mistakes will actually go punished. Dtilt means they actually have to space fairly well. I'd say that Marth makes them play his game, which is much more like a game of chess. Both sides have to play a bit more of a mental game(generally) in battles against Marth.

I think that ties into what junk said about playing marth consistently at a high level of play throughout a tournament. It goes both ways, only the opponent doesn't have to deal with it every round.

The biggest problem why Marth isn't already ranked top tier imo is because there aren't enough people doing it. Playing Marth well just takes a toll on you mind because you have to think so much. After a while, you just get tired.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on it. Marth deserves to be S tier in theory. But players who are willing to put in the time and effort to play him well consistently in a tournament are limited. He can level the playing field a bit, which is why he hardly has any bad match-ups, but at the same time he doesn't have any good match-ups unless it's against a fairly low tier character who just simply just outclassed and lacks tools.
 

legion598

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the only reason marth isnt higher tier then those above him is because meta knight exists marth has almost no disadvantageous match ups making him techically better then rob and G&W
 

Pierce7d

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Amazing stuff
THIS! Also, once you get more comfortable with Marth, the toll becomes less. Memorizing patterns and options and results of those options helps and having them stuck in your mind helps you move much quicker and do amazing things with Marth, since he's so frikken fast. This does begin to happen once you play 7000 matches or so.

And wtf? Marth does NOT eat fsmashes for missing Fair. If Marth spacing correctly, and tippers Fair, he shouldn't be getting hit by anything even if the Fair is shielded.
 

PenUmbra

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Miss your Sh fair once and DK has almost a guaranteed fsmash .
I was ROFL when I read that. It reminded me of the time EL said Pit's F-smash was safe on block.

Fast falling is in this game too, and so is the shield. As a DK player, I WISH I could punish Pierce so efficiently, however, somehow he manages to do something you don't and PS my F-smash, and I eat 16%(more or less) from dancing blade. DK has to have highly efficient spacing to keep Marth away. Once Marth gets in, he can stay on DK, and DK losses a large amount of his options, and gets much more damage than Marth does once the spacing and momentum change. The Match-up is certainly 60-40 in Marth's favor, but DK can certainly make him work for it.
 

A2ZOMG

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Marth isn't S tier. He doesn't raaaaaaaaape most of the cast like some characters do. That's it really.
 

Pierce7d

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Marth isn't S tier. He doesn't raaaaaaaaape most of the cast like some characters do. That's it really.
Except, he really does. Marth has no business losing to a character below A-Tier (except maybe Zamus) and really, that only happens if the Marth player doesn't have significant match-up exp. He beats most of A-Tier too, going even with DK.
 

feardragon64

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I was ROFL when I read that. It reminded me of the time EL said Pit's F-smash was safe on block.

Fast falling is in this game too, and so is the shield. As a DK player, I WISH I could punish Pierce so efficiently, however, somehow he manages to do something you don't and PS my F-smash, and I eat 16%(more or less) from dancing blade. DK has to have highly efficient spacing to keep Marth away. Once Marth gets in, he can stay on DK, and DK losses a large amount of his options, and gets much more damage than Marth does once the spacing and momentum change. The Match-up is certainly 60-40 in Marth's favor, but DK can certainly make him work for it.
Meh, I wouldn't call it 60:40 Marth. You answered why in your own post.

Once Marth gets in, he can stay on DK, and DK losses a large amount of his options
DK is fairly good at keeping Marth out. That's generally why it's called even. Like you said, DK can make Marth work for it. At best, I'd say it's 55:45 Marth. But meh.
 

Pierce7d

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I THINK I'm in agreement with FearDragon here. Once the first fair connects, Marth can just keep Fairing and Uairing speed with the occasional Dancing Blade, and DK will soon find himself off the stage. Nair is also amazing here, because it's very easy to shield stab DK. It's almost a guaranteed hit after a shield breaker connects. Ftilt does do an amazing job of swiping Marth out the sky, and dtilt and downB keeps him off the ground. The combination of these moves, and Bair, can really keep Marth at a wall, but eventually Marth will land a hit, and his ability to follow up on DK is stupid (you can probably image that I've gotten better at this match-up). Marth can also edgeguard DK rather effectively if he is aggressive in doing so.

Of course, DK can abuse Marth's openings as well when they come. Dsmash is amazing, and Giant Punch is too useful in this match-up. These moves can land amazingly early kills. Bair edgeguarding can **** Marth if done appropriately, and a walk-away reverse Fsmash can score serious damage if Marth does make a spacing error. Coupled with DK's wall, we've got ourselves a nearly even match-up. I'd call it 55:45 Marth, or maybe even.
 

AndrewCarlson

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Except, he really does. Marth has no business losing to a character below A-Tier (except maybe Zamus) and really, that only happens if the Marth player doesn't have significant match-up exp. He beats most of A-Tier too, going even with DK.
While he does have an advantage over most of the cast, I wouldn't say he ***** them to the extent of the current S-tier barring R.O.B.

He shouldn't be losing to lower-tiered characters if played right, for sure. But these victories still do not come as easily as those above him on the current Tier List. I agree with knocking R.O.B. down to maybe 8th, but Marth is fine at 7th overall, top of A-tier.
 

Turbo Ether

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Marth is top 5. Roughly tied with Falco. Probably better than DDD and GW tbh. Definitely better than ROB.

I kinda don't care that DDD and GW **** some lesser characters more easily than Marth, since those lesser characters aren't viable anyway.
 

AndrewCarlson

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The thing is, both Dedede and Game & Watch have a trait that excels them into Top Tier. While Marth is a very solid character overall (and possibly a better character too), the lack of this exploitable trait is what is holding him back.
 

feardragon64

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The thing is, both Dedede and Game & Watch have a trait that excels them into Top Tier. While Marth is a very solid character overall (and possibly a better character too), the lack of this exploitable trait is what is holding him back.
I consider range on every single attack he has pretty exploitable...
And if you say it doesn't work against higher tier characters....

Well DDD's and falco's chain-grab aren't exactly exploitable on Marth because of dolphin slash? So what does that mean?
 

bludhoundz

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Pierce mentioned Marth's most exploitable trait.

It is impossible to shield pressure him unless you are using projectiles or long distjoined hitboxes (d3's ftilt, zss' plasma whip), otherwise you eat dolphin slash.

Being completely immune to shield pressure at short range shuts down so many characters. Marth can just sword / shield camp all day.

Sure, he doesn't have a chaingrab like Dedede or insanely long lasting hitboxes like G&W, but he has pretty much the ultimate defense, and an insane offense. Shieldbreaker - best shield pressure move in the game. Dancing blade - pretty much the best spotdodge punisher in the game, and also just an amazing lag punisher.

Now I still think Dedede and G&W are higher up on the tier list, but not by a huge amount.

Edit: feardragon, they can still CG him. Good players will have frame perfect timing, and you cannot break out. In fact, Dedede can mindgame Marth if he's spamming up b, and nail him with a finisher. See either Seibrik or CO18's combo video (one of them has some really good footage of just this).
 

3xSwords

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I know for sure DDD can perfectly CG Marth, but can Falco? Or is his escapable no matter how perfect the timing?
 

feardragon64

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Er my bad. I was ambiguous about DDD. DDD can cg him if he does it perfectly. Marth can punish not doing it perfectly(it's really hard to do, but we can probably assume at higher levels of play they'll be able to do it properly). Falco, on the other hand, only has like two guaranteed I believe.
 

A2ZOMG

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Except, he really does. Marth has no business losing to a character below A-Tier (except maybe Zamus) and really, that only happens if the Marth player doesn't have significant match-up exp. He beats most of A-Tier too, going even with DK.
So what if he's not losing to them easily, he doesn't raaaaaaaaape them.

The better characters raaaaaaaaape. And by that I mean the matchup is clearly demoralizing. Vs Marth, I mean sure he's hard to handle, but he doesn't have anything super broken that guarentees the matchup is a win. He has to play good to win against most characters (except the very worst ones), but he DOES have enough tools for a player to be good with him.
 

illinialex24

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Er my bad. I was ambiguous about DDD. DDD can cg him if he does it perfectly. Marth can punish not doing it perfectly(it's really hard to do, but we can probably assume at higher levels of play they'll be able to do it properly). Falco, on the other hand, only has like two guaranteed I believe.
He can?? Didn't know that, I always escaped... Guessing they have to dash longer before continuing the chain-grab...
 

Pierce7d

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Rumor has it that UpB is not your best option vs D3's chaingrab. Everytime I remember to simply push away, I manage to simple walk out. Considering the amazing position this puts me in, I'd say it's well worth it. It's also safer that spot dodge and UpB. I would suggest everyone experiment with this, if there's a GOOD D3 that can consistently chaingrab Marth.
 

PKNintendo

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Actually, I think Marth does constitute as S tier character (from an observer's standpoint)

Ridiculously good matchups.
ONLY 3 disadvantages.

MK (who doesn't)

Snake and D3.

Everything else is is even (1, that is ROB) and advantages. When compared to Falco, Snake, D3 and G&W I don't think they come close to Marth in terms of matchups since they all have their bad matchups.

Moving on, Marth's moveset is amazing, and his tourney results succeed many characters (G&W, last I recalled)

I mean, what's WRONG with him? He doesn't have any LOL matchups either.
 

blur114

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Marth is a great character, quick, nice defense, and not to mention the power in tipping. I think he should be higher on the tier list, but not S-tier. If Marth gets hit out of his second jump, it leaves him few options from there.
 
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