Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[Banee]

Bup-bup!

This subject-matter can be entirely fact based. A lot of people just make sweeping judgements and use their opinions and interpretations alone when arguing the subject matter.
.

I disagree here. Yes, if we can come to a consensus on what "balance" means, then we can come to a conclusion based on facts. However, ones definition of balance is ultimately an opinion.

Case and point, I once argued with you quite a long time ago about the "balance" of games. It eventually came down to our inability to come to a consensus on what balance is. I claim balance is the number of viable characters in a game (some people have referred to it as competitive variety), you claimed (atleast at that time) that balance was determined by a ratio of total character in a game to total number of viable characters. My definition of balance doesnt care about how many total character exist in a game, but yours does. This is ultimately where the disagreement came from.

Now, you cannot factually prove that your definition of balance is correct. You can say that some people hold the same definition of balance as you do. You can say alot of people hold the same definition of balance as you do. You can say alot of people from different communities hold the same definition of balance as you do. It doesnt matter, because you still cannot prove your definition of balance is correct, you can just prove its the more popular definition. Popularity does not equate correctness.

The same exact problem applies here. Everyone here comes in with their own definition, their opinion if you will, of balance. You cannot prove that their definition is incorrect. Within the context of their definition, they may find either melee or brawl more balanced. The problem as I see it, and I in no way mean this as an attack on you, Yuna, just an observation, is that you attempt to tell people that they are wrong by your definition of balance, but fail to recognize that your definition does not match up with theirs.

Now, I'm not the most up-to-date on this community at all, but I have yet to see these boards come to a conclusion on what the definition of balance is. If and when that happens, then you can argue within the context of that definition since it would be accepted as the communities definition. If that has already happened, feel free to correct me and disregard this post. Also, please point me to the thread where this happened as I would be interested in reading it.

 

[Masmasher@]

lol I did the same thing. if you expect us to read 100 pages of comments before contributing what the purpose of the thread is, you're sadly mistaken.

Then expect to get reprimanded and told you dont know what youre talking about by me and many others who actually read the thread. The one guy didnt even have any substance. He just said brawl is more balanced. Thats a insult to people who actually have logical things to say and put time into this discussion. If youre not gonna read then it least put down a reason to ether get praised or shot down in flames. What MarTh- and you (to a smaller extent) did was just pure spamming.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

my definition of balanced is a game where all players can compete at an equal level despite the characters of their opponents. Brawl contains too many infinites cgs and dreadful final smashes to be "balanced"

 

[petre]

TLDR: OP IS NEVER GOING TO BE ANSWERED

end thread.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

masmasher: speaking of lack of logic, it's highly impractical to read thousands of post to make one. that would be pointless. This thread was meant to determine which game was more balanced, and a "vote" counts as contribution. to say that I do not know what I am talking about is to condemn yourself as it is foolish to toss around insults without base or reason to support them. If you spend hours before every post you make on a thread that's fine by me, but don't expect others to and insult them if they do not as it is not a good management of time or wit.

 

[Banee]

end thread.

Heh, mostly but not entirely. If the boards can come to a clear consensus on the definition of balance then this thread can come to a useful conclusion. Since, when speaking of the topic of balance on these boards, it will be expected that you adhere to the community definition. However, thats a very very difficult thing to do with a community this large and probably isnt feasible.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

yeah... im leavin this thread boring restating my opinion over and over to masmasher or whatev

 

[RDK]

yeah... im leavin this thread boring restating my opinion over and over to masmasher or whatev

Oddly enough, restating your unfounded, uneducated, factless opinion over and over isn't what constitutes good discussion.

The whole point of a discussion is to help educate people who are otherwise *******. I suggest you help yourself to the past 100 pages of good information. People a lot more well-read on the subject than you spent a lot of time contributing.

 

[petre]

Heh, mostly but not entirely. If the boards can come to a clear consensus on the definition of balance then this thread can come to a useful conclusion. Since, when speaking of the topic of balance on these boards, it will be expected that you adhere to the community definition. However, thats a very very difficult thing to do with a community this large and probably isnt feasible.

yeah. maybe everyone could decide which characters in each game are viable (if they can define that! lol), and then each individual can decide if the overall balance should be decided by % of total characters or just number of viable characters. then everyone will have their own EDUCATED opinion on the matter!

 

[AfroQT]

Oddly enough, restating your unfounded, uneducated, factless opinion over and over isn't what constitutes good discussion.

The whole point of a discussion is to help educate people who are otherwise *******. I suggest you help yourself to the past 100 pages of good information. People a lot more well-read on the subject than you spent a lot of time contributing.

This guy is a man.

 

[Masmasher@]

Then expect to get reprimanded and told you dont know what youre talking about by me and many others who actually read the thread. The one guy didnt even have any substance. He just said brawl is more balanced. Thats a insult to people who actually have logical things to say and put time into this discussion. If youre not gonna read then it least put down a reason to ether get praised or shot down in flames. What MarTh- and you (to a smaller extent) did was just pure spamming.

masmasher: speaking of lack of logic, it's highly impractical to read thousands of post to make one. that would be pointless. This thread was meant to determine which game was more balanced, and a "vote" counts as contribution. to say that I do not know what I am talking about is to condemn yourself as it is foolish to toss around insults without base or reason to support them. If you spend hours before every post you make on a thread that's fine by me, but don't expect others to and insult them if they do not as it is not a good management of time or wit.

Sigh...... No a vote does not count he threw that in there for s**ts and giggles. He just wanted to say brawl was more balanced. Its like throwing a staple on a piece of paper and saying its two pages. YOU DONT find a games balance by taking a poll. Its not a popularity contest. When i say you dont know what your talking about I mean you should have a high expectation of it. This is because you may state something thats been refuted a thousand times over. I dont mean to imply you are short sighted but it least make somewhat of a concentrated effort to make good discussion. You have it least stated some criteria (though in competitive play no one plays with final smashes so that part is irrelevant). But like Adambrodus said.have some class and be educated about it. Though reading is good also so you can learn . It would be like me going into a aeronatics class and saying "duh I think planes are cool"= fail

 

[Oracle]

Pichu is so friekin overrated. His f-smash ***** spotdodges and KO's very quickly. His aerial mobility is on par with Captain Falcon. His recovery is excellent, and his edgeguarding is good as well. His projectle's slowness is a benefit since it allows him to approach without fear of retribution. Pichu is pretty much the fastest character below mid tier. What's the drawback? Light? sounds familiar...

The lack of range can be avoided with his Falcon-like aerial mobility.

I've beaten a Sheik with Pichu that I couldn't beat with any other character, and yes, he knew the Chaingrab.

Anecdotal evidence ftl.

If Jiggs can win a tourney, there is no reason Pichu can't as well.

Good luck using pichu's amazing range to actually start combos

 

[DRD]

I've got to agree with Thunder

I respect anyone who has the patience to read through this 100 page thread completely (Masmasher), but it isn't really practical

By all means reprimand him like no tomorrow but just don't expect him to read the whole thing s'all

 

[fkacyan]

lol I did the same thing. if you expect us to read 100 pages of comments before contributing what the purpose of the thread is, you're sadly mistaken.

We hate circular arguments.

 

[MikeSanti]

Pichu is so friekin overrated. His f-smash ***** spotdodges and KO's very quickly. His aerial mobility is on par with Captain Falcon. His recovery is excellent, and his edgeguarding is good as well. His projectle's slowness is a benefit since it allows him to approach without fear of retribution. Pichu is pretty much the fastest character below mid tier. What's the drawback? Light? sounds familiar...

The lack of range can be avoided with his Falcon-like aerial mobility.

I've beaten a Sheik with Pichu that I couldn't beat with any other character, and yes, he knew the Chaingrab.

Anecdotal evidence ftl.

If Jiggs can win a tourney, there is no reason Pichu can't as well.

Did you really just try to make a comparison between Jiggs and Pichu?

Really? Reeaally??

 

[Sky`]

Did you really just try to make a comparison between Jiggs and Pichu?

Really? Reeaally??

That's seriously what I was thinking this whole time.
Lmao.

 

[Sky`]

Woah, those sigs that say, "Combos Don exits in brawl." I read it like...
Combo's don't exist in brawl. I didn't even realize...
aww gee..

 

[Masmasher@]

I've got to agree with Thunder

I respect anyone who has the patience to read through this 100 page thread completely (Masmasher), but it isn't really practical

By all means reprimand him like no tomorrow but just don't expect him to read the whole thing s'all

Oh I know lol its not practical. I was bored one day and read scars entire thread that got closed so that should show you i'm not screwed on all the way. But people should get a general idea of whats been happening. You can skim or before you contribute ask questions instead of coming in here blind and rambling.

 

[AfroQT]

So how about that fight to the death?

 

[petre]

So how about that fight to the death?

sounds good. only way to guarantee a solution.

 

[IrArby]

Woah, those sigs that say, "Combos Don exits in brawl." I read it like...
Combo's don't exist in brawl. I didn't even realize...
aww gee..

phh Noob.

Alright, I didn't just pick out this post solely to slander Sky on one stupid remark but to myself remark on the lack of attention to detail displayed by the many people flooding this thread all of the sudden saying we can't qualify things in the game because its all opinion or Yuna is too nitpicky.

I skimmed through the last 6 pages and most of it has been alot of people not getting, or misreading, or not reading parts of posts and getting upset when others point this out. The above quote was not only a prime example of that but also that Sky was being pretty Noobish since they had old Tee shirts on sale since before I joined the boards saying just that. Thats not really relevant to the discussion at hand I just wanted to slight him as he and many others have been doing little else since I last posted. It needs to stop.

Most everything that ambrodeus, RDK, and Yuna have said is verfiable or quantifiable. Details are important so can we pay attention. I would suggest not multiquoting but thats just me, I think that helps to get concise thoughts across rather than broken points.

So lets bring the level of debate back up to par, flame this post if you are simply lame and can't help it, and start debating the two games on their balance. My 87 cents since 2 cents doesn't mean Sh*t.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oddly enough, restating your unfounded, uneducated, factless opinion over and over isn't what constitutes good discussion.

The whole point of a discussion is to help educate people who are otherwise *******. I suggest you help yourself to the past 100 pages of good information. People a lot more well-read on the subject than you spent a lot of time contributing.

so everything in the last 100 pages is good information?

GREAT

I was in the last hundred pages!

that means, contrary to what you always tell me, im putting forth good information...

AWESOME.

also, I will fight a battle to the death any single day of the week if yuna will be there...

also, ally won a grand finals tournament match against anther with captain falcon.
Reflex consistently wins tournaments with pokemon trainers.
this is me using facts to back my claim that brawl is the more balenced game.
are you happy now?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex consistently wins tournaments with pokemon trainers.

I use Wario about as often as Pokemon Trainer.

I'm not trying to refute what you're saying; I just want it to be as accurate as possible. I believe Brawl is more "balanced" than Melee, myself.

 

[Sky`]

phh Noob.

Alright, I didn't just pick out this post solely to slander Sky on one stupid remark but to myself remark on the lack of attention to detail displayed by the many people flooding this thread all of the sudden saying we can't qualify things in the game because its all opinion or Yuna is too nitpicky.

I skimmed through the last 6 pages and most of it has been alot of people not getting, or misreading, or not reading parts of posts and getting upset when others point this out. The above quote was not only a prime example of that but also that Sky was being pretty Noobish since they had old Tee shirts on sale since before I joined the boards saying just that. Thats not really relevant to the discussion at hand I just wanted to slight him as he and many others have been doing little else since I last posted. It needs to stop.

Most everything that ambrodeus, RDK, and Yuna have said is verfiable or quantifiable. Details are important so can we pay attention. I would suggest not multiquoting but thats just me, I think that helps to get concise thoughts across rather than broken points.

So lets bring the level of debate back up to par, flame this post if you are simply lame and can't help it, and start debating the two games on their balance. My 87 cents since 2 cents doesn't mean Sh*t.

I'll start the fight to the death with this scrub.

k i pik pch in brawl cuz she's betr in brawl than she wuz in melee.

Neither of the games are balanced. There's the on topic for ya.

Opinions don't have a quality of noobyness IMO, cause it's just your opinion.

So far, in brawl, there are more characters that have the potential to win a tournament than Melee.
What does that mean?

EDIT: GRatz on 800 posts Btw. =D

 

[AfroQT]

so everything in the last 100 pages is good information?

GREAT

I was in the last hundred pages!

that means, contrary to what you always tell me, im putting forth good information...

AWESOME.

also, I will fight a battle to the death any single day of the week if yuna will be there...

also, ally won a grand finals tournament match against anther with captain falcon.
Reflex consistently wins tournaments with pokemon trainers.
this is me using facts to back my claim that brawl is the more balenced game.
are you happy now?

Anther used Sonic that match. Ally used Snake for EVERY OTHER MATCH that tournament.

 

[Tyr_03]

Brawl is more balanced because I said so.

(Insert opinionated/misleading/pointless evidense here.)

Yuna: "Blah blah blah. I'm important. I'm the leading expert on every fighting game ever and you're wrong. (insert opinionated/well thought out/pointless evidense here.)"

/pointless thread

 

[Sky`]

Lmfao!!!!!!

 

[da K.I.D.]

they havent responded because they OBVIOUSLY cant counter such overwhelming evidence...

 

[Masmasher@]

I'll start the fight to the death with this scrub.

k i pik pch in brawl cuz she's betr in brawl than she wuz in melee.

Neither of the games are balanced. There's the on topic for ya.

Opinions don't have a quality of noobyness IMO, cause it's just your opinion.

So far, in brawl, there are more characters that have the potential to win a tournament than Melee.
What does that mean?

EDIT: GRatz on 800 posts Btw. =D

Wellllllll......
There more characters in brawl than melee.
We are talking about the highest level of play not what you can do at grandmas bi weekly.

How bout responding to this by me. See what this turns into.

Maybe we should see what characters are viable by the frequency of the other characters they play that they are disadvantaged against and i dont mean soft counters i mean **** matchups.
Also we should really take a look at the characters attributes and see how they compare in with the overall current actual game/metagame. For instance in brawl captain falcon really doesnt fit (i'm assuming correct me if I'm wrong) brawl is really more defensive without the offset of being able to come with a great offensive game physics wise and some what a weak approach he has alot stacked against him. IM NOT BASHING. just saying ALOT of his **** matchups are by the top tier and he'll run into those frequently.

Oh and opinions are nooby if you dont know much about the subject

Sidenote can you prove peach is better in brawl then she is at melee. Cause you spotting that off like its fact.




Which its not.

 

[Oracle]

I'll start the fight to the death with this scrub.

k i pik pch in brawl cuz she's betr in brawl than she wuz in melee.

Neither of the games are balanced. There's the on topic for ya.

Opinions don't have a quality of noobyness IMO, cause it's just your opinion.

So far, in brawl, there are more characters that have the potential to win a tournament than Melee.
What does that mean?

EDIT: GRatz on 800 posts Btw. =D

Actually, the game is overall more balanced. You see things like low tier counters (lol pika) and good matchups for low tiers against top tiers, which, combined with stage cping makes some matchups unbeatable (DK vs. Fox on FD). Characters in melee have more offensive options against top tiers, such as 0-death CG's from basically everyone on spacies and easy combos on top tiers. Its just that the top tiers offensive options outweigh the low tiers.

Melee also has low tier mains winning a lot of tournies with really good people in them. Look at Taj, Gimpyfish, anther, DJnintendo, to name a few.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Brawl might have been more balanced than Melee. If it weren't for one thing.

Metaknight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

taj and gimpyfish won tournaments?!

 

[aeghrur]

Brawl is more balanced because I said so.

(Insert opinionated/misleading/pointless evidense here.)

Yuna: "Blah blah blah. I'm important. I'm the leading expert on every fighting game ever and you're wrong. (insert opinionated/well thought out/pointless evidense here.)"

/pointless thread

Yeah, that's basically the thread.
Why isn't this in the OP?

 

[notftomearth7]

With cheap characters like Meta-Knight and nerfed characters such as Fox and Samus, how can you honestly say Brawl is more balanced?

 

[aeghrur]

Lol@cheap.
If you say look at all the 80:20 matchups, almost unwinnable situations, giant gaps between tiers, then I'd say, YOUR RIGHT. But lol@cheap. Don't use cheap... because people call sonic cheap... lol.
Also, nerfed characters shouldn't matter as much. I mean, melee nerfed 64's ness, but did it affect how balanced a game is? No, it simply makes ness a worse character, but the game as a whole could be much more balanced. Nerfed simply means characters aren't as good, but it doesn't mean they're bad, or that the games are unbalanced.

 

[ShadowLink84]

also, ally won a grand finals tournament match against anther with captain falcon.
Reflex consistently wins tournaments with pokemon trainers.
this is me using facts to back my claim that brawl is the more balenced game.
are you happy now?

Ally used Snake for every other match in that tournament. it was only in the final match that Ally used Captain Falcon.
and it was against Anther's immature Sonic (you can tell by watching the videos that his falcon was that much better than Anther's sonic).
In short, it was a result of skill not a result of the character's capability.

Reflex also uses Wario equally, so his PT is capable of advancing more than it would in theory because he is also using Wario as he advances.

Let alone he is really ****ing good.

 

[Sky`]

People who say MK is cheap, obviously haven't been to high scale tournaments IMO.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The best wa to measure which game is more balanced is simple.
Look at the matchup ratios and then compare to melee.

If you want to measure according to the number of characters viable for winning tournaments, you would have to calculate the ratio and determine which is better.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex also uses Wario equally, so his PT is capable of advancing more than it would in theory because he is also using Wario as he advances.

Let alone he is really ****ing good.

Logically, don't you mean, "incapable"? Just making sure.

And, thank you for the compliment.

 

[Masmasher@]

The best wa to measure which game is more balanced is simple.
Look at the matchup ratios and then compare to melee.

If you want to measure according to the number of characters viable for winning tournaments, you would have to calculate the ratio and determine which is better.

Not that easy there are more characters in brawl.

plus the people that grade the matchups have a different outlook since essentially they are different games.
I also think we should finds the definitive reasons why the matchups are the way they are and see which holes are more deep. Also some matchups are way more devoloped than others. some havent even fully Materialized yet at the highest level of play.

Also i think this is a decent process someone respond on this.

Maybe we should see what characters are viable by the frequency of the other characters they play that they are disadvantaged against and i dont mean soft counters i mean **** matchups.
Also we should really take a look at the characters attributes and see how they compare in with the overall current actual game/metagame. For instance in brawl captain falcon really doesnt fit (i'm assuming correct me if I'm wrong) brawl is really more defensive without the offset of being able to come with a great offensive game physics wise and some what a weak approach he has alot stacked against him. IM NOT BASHING. just saying ALOT of his **** matchups are by the top tier and he'll run into those frequently.