Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[UltiMario]

Why the **** am I agreeing with Ulti so much today? I swear this never happens.

Because I've been right about everything the whole time and now it only took you to this point to realize it.

 

[Wave⁂]

Yeah, Nidoking with anything that isn't Life Orb is pretty bad.

 

[xxmoosexx]

There isn't a whole lot of full stall teams.

it takes some serious precaution to cover all the threats.

 

[UltiMario]

Yeah Nido does wreck anything slower than it but really, Stall isn't that big, especially way up in the top rankings. The closest thing to stall I see up there is a three-pokemon defensive core supporting three other offensive Pokemon.

 

[choknater]

seeing darkrai latis skymin mew all over the place is pretty intimidating

i like the new walls nattorei and burungeru, mad cute

roobushin is gimmicky

ahhhhhh

random chokrants

 

[Terywj [태리]]

roobushin is gimmicky

I think that once the general novelty of Roobushin dies down we'll see the resurgence of the "legit" Fighting-types like Machamp and Zurzukin.

I mean, Roobushin abuses that Mach Punch to get rid of Doryuuzu but.

 

[UltiMario]

Tell me how Roob is Gimmicky.

It is one of the few things that can abuse Mach Punch in OU, is incredibly Bulky, has an extremely powerful Drain Punch, and can abuse Guts.

There is not better Guts abuser in OU, and not anything nearly as bulky to abuse Mach Punch with.

Also, MPing Dory means nothing because it takes CB Guts Boosted Roop to OHKO the thing.

 

[Wrath`]

I have been wondering, tiers are based on usage and in gen IV the top 50 most used pokemon made up the OU tier, but with all the new pokemon may we see more than 50 in OU? as I doubt you'd want 20-30 pokemon in BL tier. Just a random thought.

 

[UltiMario]

It was whoever made 3.41% usage in Gen IV got into OU.

Also, BL is a banlist, there should never should be that many Pokemon in it :/

 

[xxmoosexx]

Herp Derp.

 

[choknater]

its mostly cuz hes ugly and cant do anything other than mach punch and drain punch LOOOOOL

 

[Fuelbi]

So Gliscor has Poison Heal this gen as a DW ability. What do you guys think about that? Would it be worth losing over Roost since it's illegal with Poison Heal? Got me curious after someone mentioned that to me.

Or is Gliscor just ****ty overall this gen? Because I really haven't tried him out

 

[kirbyraeg]

sub+protect could be really good

toxic+eq+neutrality to sand and healing in any other weather is pretty good, but he still has weaknesses and is only decently bulky

 

[choknater]

gliscor is just really cool-looking overall.

 

[Circa]

It was whoever made 3.41% usage in Gen IV got into OU.

Also, BL is a banlist, there should never should be that many Pokemon in it :/

Actually, there could be. Because I think what he means is that there would be about 20-30 banworthy Pokemon running around UU. Which is very plausible for the time being.

 

[Hobobloke]

It may just be that UU becomes a more powerful metagame.

Perhaps even having another tier between UU and NU.

 

[UltiMario]

Actually, there could be. Because I think what he means is that there would be about 20-30 banworthy Pokemon running around UU. Which is very plausible for the time being.

Remember what happened in Non-Gen IV metagames?

BL was its own tier essentially. Then, they dropped BL down into UU, and everything balanced out in the end with only a few bans.

There really isn't a reason to have more than 15 things in BL, if even a reason to have more than 10.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I got an idea i'm going to test it and see if it can do anything or whether this pokemon is just too ****ty to make it happen

If this idea works though like I hope it will this might be the best thing ever and will revolutionize the metagame, and I can post an rmt with it =D

edit: this isn't the idea i was talking about, this is just something little I thought of:

Nattorei @ Shed Shell/Leftovers
252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef (0 Spe)
Brave / Iron Barbs

Curse
Gyro Ball
Power Whip
Leech Seed / Rest

Defensive booster, but keep in mind Gyro Ball's power. After a curse it hits max power vs. no-speed base 60s. That's ****ing HUGE. Oh, and a +1 power whip from this set can 1hko dorry. Leech Seed lets it just stall up vs. things that can't hurt it really, and a lot of offense is hard pressed to beat this guy.

(hasn't been tested lol)

 

[Gates]

Shouldn't you take some of those EVs out of attack and put them in SpD so he doesn't get raep'd by Ninetales or something? At the very least you could go to Sassy, unless you plan on using Trick Room support (which only works for so long). You're also walled by other steel types if you don't use Leech Seed.

Have you done any damage calcs at all yet?

 

[UltiMario]

Oh, and a +1 power whip from this set can 1hko dorry.

I don't believe this bull**** for a second.

If +1 Roop can't OHKO Dory with Mach Punch, then sure as hell this thing can't with ANYTHING.

Also, I've seen that set thrown around before. Meh, whatever. Regular Natt can just tank the hits and 2-3HKO with Gyro Balls on everything anyways.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I don't believe this bull**** for a second.

If +1 Roop can't OHKO Dory with Mach Punch, then sure as hell this thing can't with ANYTHING.

475 Atk vs 156 Def & 361 HP (120 Base Power): 391 - 462 (108.31% - 127.98%)
compared to
624 Atk vs 156 Def & 361 HP (40 Base Power): 344 - 408 (95.29% - 113.02%)

not that hard to believe, is it?

@Gates I didn't really think of calcs as far as stuff is concerned, but being able to hit base 60 and above for max power with Gyro Ball after a Curse is big. It's kinda just meant to tank stuff and also deal with traditional sand stall after opposing Skarm/Nat is out of the way, as they NEED a x4 resist to its STABs to resist its hits after a while.

 

[mood4food77]

let's see then:

a +1 +atk 252 Atk Roopushin deals 94.7%-111.9% with leftovers and Mach Punch
a +1 +atk 252 Atk Nattorei deals 108%-127.1% with leftovers and Power Whip

so it looks like that natt will get the OHKO no matter what

damnit...ninja'd

just looking at the top 20 on wifi, only Gengar, Roobushin, Blaziken, Sazandora, Blissey and Dragonite are the only non-water, non-ground, non-rock, non-steel pokes

weather big influence?

make it top 30, you get the sun teams with Gengar, Roobushin, Sazandora, Blissey, Dragonite, Latios, and Rankurusu are the only pokes in which they don't have any effects with weather

 

[kirbyraeg]

Let's add a couple calcs of common stuff in sandstorm (and general threats to Natty in general) for that particular set:

Unboosted Power Whip vs. Chomp: 181 - 214 (50.56% - 59.78%)
+1 Power Whip vs. Landlos: 283 - 334 (88.71% - 104.70%)
Gyro Ball vs. Sazando: 237 - 279 (72.92% - 85.85%)
Gyro Ball vs. Latios: 261 - 307 (86.71% - 101.99%)
Gyro Ball vs. Shandera: 118 - 139 (45.21% - 53.26%)
Gyro Ball vs. 252 HP Espeon: 307 - 363 (91.92% - 108.68%)
(Burned) +1 Power Whip vs. 252/216 Bold Burungeru: 246 - 290 (60.89% - 71.78%)
Power Whip vs. 252/252 Hippowdon: 222 - 264 (52.86% - 62.86%)
+1 Power Whip vs. 252/120 Tentacruel: 313 - 369 (85.99% - 101.37%)

Help me think of more calcs to do. That Shandera one is pretty important though, since it can be made completely useless if it comes in on rocks and switches in on Gyro Ball if this thing is paired with Heatran/flash fire/kingdramon.

 

[mood4food77]

i just made a sun team

if exeggutor isn't OU, people are dumb

i made a straigth sweeper set using solarbeam/psycho shock/sludge bomb/sleep powder and it seriously ***** everything, and when combined with heatran, you got a great defensive typing core right there

 

[Pluvia]

His ability to recycle berries is godly.

 

[Wave⁂]

Recycle only works once, though.

 

[Pluvia]

Harvest, his ability, works at the end of every turn.

 

[kirbyraeg]

"Confirmed Harvest has a chance of restoring a used berry at the end of the turn. If conditions for berry use are met the berry will be immediately used, however, and not be restored again."

so it's a PO coding error.

 

[Pluvia]

So it is a coding error and my assumption was right at first?

**** I've been cheated out of a win because of that.

 

[Gates]

kirbyraeg, when I asked you ro tun damage calcs, I meant damage calcs of attacks AGAINST Nattorei, not attacks BY Nattorei. I don't doubt that Gyro Ball after a curse 2HKOs everything in the metagame. What I doubt is that it can survive any common fire attacks or Aura Sphere.

 

[kirbyraeg]

heh, I should've thought about it that way, but truthfully I KNOW without normal investment he can't take many SE hits on the special side. I guess those calcs are more of an argument that he should run max attack to surprise offensive switch-ins, but here's a few defensive calcs that give a good approximate idea of its specially defensive capability:

252 Modest Togekiss Aura Sphere: 180 - 212 (50.85% - 59.89%)
Naive Infernape Fire Blast in rain: 307 Atk vs 268 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 300 - 352 (84.75% - 99.44%)
LO Infernape's Flare Blitz vs +1 nattorei in rain: 232 - 276 (65.54% - 77.97%)
Specs Latios' Draco Meteor: 155 - 183 (43.79% - 51.69%)

So if you've got a weaker fighting attack than togekiss aura sphere, expect it to 3hko. If this is in rain and it's weaker than Infernape's Fire Blast, expect a 2hko. Natt's physical bulk is a little higher than 252/252 after a curse, but not by very much, but the attack investment is what makes the set worth using imo just because it can beat those things that exploit its weaknesses as they switch in.

 

[Pluvia]

Just to mention, Nat also gets Swords Dance.

 

[UltiMario]

Lowering your speed with Curse and Raising your defenses more than makes up for the loss of +1 Atk.

After 6 curses and a para, you hit even level 50 Shuckle for max damage with Gyro Ball off your Whopping two speed.

Hell yeah.

 

[mood4food77]

i think the lowest you can go down to is 17 speed

cause i have done 6 curses and after 4, PO said 17 speed still

 

[Gates]

Aura Sphere calcs are about what I expected.

Still, you're basically banking on Fire Blast either missing or hitting you only while it's raining, which is hard to do in OU because you don't have a bulky rain user who can heal himself like Kyogre (instead you have Politoed, who is no bulkier than your average Gen IV UU pokemon). This is a really bad idea. You may say that accuracy is everything, but if that's the case then why are you running Power Whip?

And there's also the fact that Shandera is the most common fire type and most of them pack Overheat, which OHKOs through rain, sleet, snow, sand, fog, Brightest Day, Blackest Night, countdown, 52, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Hush, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Civil War, Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, Burnout 3, Grand Turismo 5, Persona 4, I don't even know what I'm typing right now, but my point is that you're wrong.

And lol, why would you Draco Meteor against a Nattorei? The only thing Lati@s should be doing to Nattorei is tricking something onto it.

 

[UltiMario]

i think the lowest you can go down to is 17 speed

cause i have done 6 curses and after 4, PO said 17 speed still

Nattorei's Minimum speed stat is 40.

-6 Spe is 1/4 of that. 10.
Para 1/4ths your speed. 2.5, Pokemon rounds down to 2.
You now have a speed stat of 2. Most LC Pokemon can't even get that slow. At level 5.

 

[Wave⁂]

Nattorei's Minimum speed stat is 40.

-6 Spe is 1/4 of that. 10.
Para 1/4ths your speed. 2.5, Pokemon rounds down to 2.
You now have a speed stat of 2. Most LC Pokemon can't even get that slow. At level 5.

Holy **** I just found out that paralysis is 25%, not 50%

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Holy **** I just found out that paralysis is 25%, not 50%

I had this exact same revelation about a week ago.

Seriously, has paralysis always been a 25% cut and not 50%? Or was this only a Generation V mechanic change?

 

[Hobobloke]

It was the same in Gen 4.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Aura Sphere calcs are about what I expected.

Still, you're basically banking on Fire Blast either missing or hitting you only while it's raining, which is hard to do in OU because you don't have a bulky rain user who can heal himself like Kyogre (instead you have Politoed, who is no bulkier than your average Gen IV UU pokemon). This is a really bad idea. You may say that accuracy is everything, but if that's the case then why are you running Power Whip?

And there's also the fact that Shandera is the most common fire type and most of them pack Overheat, which OHKOs through rain, sleet, snow, sand, fog, Brightest Day, Blackest Night, countdown, 52, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Hush, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Civil War, Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, Burnout 3, Grand Turismo 5, Persona 4, I don't even know what I'm typing right now, but my point is that you're wrong.

Nattorei is going to be forced out by anything with a fire move, even if it's in rain and it's some weak-*** thing running HP Fire (like Starmie). Shed Shell is the only remotely viable choice of item on a set like this unless you are RIDICULOUSLY vigilant about double switching to trap shandy. Leech Seed provides decent-ish recovery but it probably isn't enough, which is why Rest is best since it can tank a lot of hits with Curse. This set operates with the intent of being forced out by fire moves but being able to hit back against a lot of things with surprising power, surprise being the main element. If you can gyro ball and hit shandera on the switch for a minimum of 45% damage, after a round of sandstorm it can't even come back into the game again if SR is already up. It can also catch things like Espeon coming in to bounce back hazards/status with a guaranteed KO and can even 2hko, and it can set up on a lot of things provided that they don't have a fire move, such as zapdos that don't run Heat Wave. Focus Blast works in a similar way, though all its common users are non-STAB. At full health it has a very slight chance of being 1hko'ed by LO Zam focus blast, which is probably the strongest you'd see.

And lol, why would you Draco Meteor against a Nattorei? The only thing Lati@s should be doing to Nattorei is tricking something onto it.

Nobody would use it, but you might consider switching in on it in the late-game. It shows its pretty good bulk on resisted hits as well despite the lack of investment, as Specs Latios DM is probably the strongest resisted attack you'd ever find.