Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[kirbyraeg]

Shandera:
x0: Normal, Fighting
x0.25: Bug
x0.5: Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Steel
x1: Electric, Flying, Psychic, Dragon
x2: Water, Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark

Starmie:
x0.5: Fire, Water, Ice, Fighting, Psychic, Steel
x1: Normal, Poison, Ground, Flying, Rock, Dragon
x2: Electric, Grass, Bug, Ghost, Dark

I bolded type resistances they do not share, italicized weaknesses they do not share, and underlined important weaknesses (lol).

In general Starmie's typing is better defensively. However, its offensive typing leaves a lot to be desired, as it doesn't really rely on Psychic to hit much of anything, whereas both of Shandera's stabs are even more hard-hitting and cover each other decently well.

Considering Shandera's role, we shouldn't really think about more than its switch-in bulk, as it won't need to really come in more than once or twice before it's served its purpose.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Well. As far as Im concerned Im running a Spin Blocker from now on. I hardly see them in Gen V and a good percentage has Rapid Spinners/Hazard Blockers(Espeon, Magic Coat/Guard or whatever). So im done wtih having my hazards spinned away.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I don't think it should as long as you can see your opponent's team. With SR up double switching can hurt Shandera pretty bad.

I also think team viewing, like Shadow Tag, is dumb and lessens the amount of prediction required. The result is a less competitive metagame.

I guess I'll make a topic on it later I'm more interested in the reasons why we shouldn't have an ability ban for Shandy. I just want more precise answers than "deal with it."

 

[Wave⁂]

There is no reason we should ban Shanderaa and not ban Ditto, Tyranitar, Scizor, Breloom, Roopushin, Azumarill, and Flygon.

 

[The Real Gamer]

------>Shadow Tag<-------

 

[Wave⁂]

That's not a reason, that's an ability. You know what else is an ability? Eccentric, Sand Stream, Technician.

 

[The Real Gamer]

That's not a reason, that's an ability. You know what else is an ability? Eccentric, Sand Stream, Technician.

The removal of Shadow Tag would only help to diversify and balance out the metagame I don't see how someone could possibly be against an ability ban. A plethora of Pokemon would actually become viable again. I've personally had to turn down many Steel and Grass types that I've wanted on my teams simply because I look at them and realize "Crap it's just Shanderra bait and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it unless I give it a Shed Shell."

Shandy is in no way overpowered and it would most definitely be stomped all over in Ubers play. The problem lies with Shadow Tag. Competitive Pokemon has ALWAYS been about prediction thanks to the ability to switch Pokemon in and out, and when you have a metagame-centralizing Pokemon that takes ZERO prediction to revenge pretty much ANY somewhat weakened Pokemon, all it does is ruin the competitive nature of the game.

tl;dr- I believe the ban of Shadow Tag on Shandy will allow for a more diverse, competitive, and balanced metagame.

i like popsicles

Didn't you already read that? Seriously Wave...

 

[kirbyraeg]

New thread, or stfu.

Please. I'd much rather have a new thread focused on it so we can actually talk about it since this is such a contentious issue.

I'm also too lazy to make a good OP since I don't have a very strong opinion on the subject (yet) and it's finals week.

 

[Moozle]

If someone makes the thread, make it a thread dedicated to discussing potential ubers. Discussing 1 pokemon at a time would work the best.

 

[M.K]

Stickying this for organization. Renaming for clarity.

EDIT: I've done a reorganization of the Battle Tower since this thread was the host of so much discussion, I thought I'd spread it out a little bit since it was starting to burst out.

The new legality thread is to discuss the banning of certain Pokemon (i.e., Shadow Tag Shandera, etc.).

 

[Zook]

There is no reason we should ban Shanderaa and not ban Ditto, Tyranitar, Scizor, Breloom, Roopushin, Azumarill, and Flygon.

Except for Ditto, Tyranitar, Scizor, Breloom, Roopushin, Azumarril, and Flygon can't force an opponent to lose a Pokemon unless they run a certain item that isn't good if the opponent isn't using Shanderaa.

 

[Wave⁂]

Except for Ditto, Tyranitar, Scizor, Breloom, Roopushin, Azumarril, and Flygon can't force an opponent to lose a Pokemon unless they run a certain item that isn't good if the opponent isn't using Shanderaa.

Yeah, because you'll always have a good switch-in to take a Breloom Spore, Flygon U-Turn, or Ditto ANYTHING. Or Tyranitar Pursuit ohwait.

 

[Zook]

Yeah, because you'll always have a good switch-in to take a Breloom Spore, Flygon U-Turn, or Ditto ANYTHING. Or Tyranitar Pursuit ohwait.

Plenty of Pokemon run Lum Berry, I'm pretty sure that flygon thing is sarcastic, and you know if your opponent has a Ditto, so don't boost up. And Tyranitar Pursuit lol

But that isn't what this is about. Shandera is death to a lot of Pokemon. It takes very little skill to use; the most you have to worry about is whether or not they're running Shed Shell.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I think that the mere threat of Shed Shell will mean that no trapper can be relied upon.

...short of knocking off their shed shell lololol

 

[Zook]

I think that the mere threat of Shed Shell will mean that no trapper can be relied upon.

...short of knocking off their shed shell lololol

Oh, so now everything that would be OHKO'd by Shanderaa now has to use a specific item that is worthless except in very specific scenarios or be killed. That's a nice, uncentralized metagame.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Nah, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that lazy teambuilders who expect to dismantle stall with a Scarf/Specs Shandera might find themselves in for a surprise every once in a while. I am saying that situations come up where you switch in and your opponent can't discern your item beforehand, which would allow you to just switch to something like, say, Balloon Heatran. Or Kingdra. Or any other powerful Fire resist. The ubiquity of its trapping in the metagame will definitely influence how stall is played, but it isn't all good for the offensive player, as if it doesn't trap something, it's basically a wasted pokemon and an opportunity to force another switch into entry hazards. It's not too difficult to force Shandy to come in on SR to trap a wall only for the wall to switch out to a hard counter. In that case, its usefulness is basically gone against stall teams, as it will have lost 5/8ths of its health at the absolute MINIMUM if it comes in to try and trap again.

Against non-stall, shandy would fare better, but it can still be trapped by your own mons. TTar is a great pursuiter, anything with Sucker Punch destroys it, and since most are choiced you can turn it into a total setup opportunity.

If anything, I see suicune becoming REALLY popular on stall. Specifically CM Shuffle. XD

 

[Wave⁂]

Plenty of Pokemon run Lum Berry, I'm pretty sure that flygon thing is sarcastic, and you know if your opponent has a Ditto, so don't boost up. And Tyranitar Pursuit lol

But that isn't what this is about. Shandera is death to a lot of Pokemon. It takes very little skill to use; the most you have to worry about is whether or not they're running Shed Shell.

Lum Berry is just about as useful as Shed Shell. Sure, it can heal other status. But then your opponent just statuses you again.

Why would "that Flygon thing" be sarcastic?

How do you know your opponent has a Ditto? It's not like you're playing Wifi with Shadow Tag Shanderaa or anything.

Way to go, shrug off a argument with "lol". That'll prove your point good.

Shanderaa is death to a lot of Pokémon? Breloom puts a Pokémon out of commission for basically the entire game. Scizor's Bullet Punch still kills anything that's even the slightest bit frail. Doryuuzu outclasses every late-game sweeper out there, making them worthless. Kingdra in permanent Rain can sweep almost every team. Magic Mirror makes support a waste. Urugamosu can set up on virtually any neutral special attack and sweep.

inb4someone assumes these are the only examples in the metagame

 

[kirbyraeg]

Anything with a sleep move can put something out of commission for the entire game.

Doryuuzu doesn't have that much power against things that resist its main STAB and coverage (skarm/zong/weezing/other levitating stuff/etc.), and changing the weather on it will generally prevent its sweep.

 

[Gates]

So I was actually wrong about Ho-Oh still being really terrible in Gen V. I forgot that he gets another fun tool that helps him out - Nitro Charge. With a reasonable amount of speed, Nitro Charge Ho-Oh can be a really good attacker, and Regeneration helps with phazers who will inevitably come in to try and take the boost away.

Ho-Oh is still one of the worst Ubers, but I have to admit that he's a lot better than I thought. He's probably better now than he was in any generation besides Gen II.

 

[Pluvia]

Wave, Honchkrow completely stops Breloom.

Switch to Honch and watch as the Spore is made ineffective thanks to Insomnia. Now Breloom has 3 choices: 1. Do something other than Mach Punch but be killed by Brave Bird before he can do anything 2. Mach Punch, which wont kill Honch, or 3. Switch, letting something take a Brave Bird from Honch. With a LO that 2HKO's the entire meta-game bar Steels and Rocks, and coupled with Sucker Punch it's a beast.

Never had problems with Flygon, just switch to the Jellyfish if you're expecting U-Turn I guess.

Ditto hates Will-O-Wisp and walls.

The list goes on and on. You can stop all of these Pokemon by switching, something you can't do to Shan.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Adamant Breloom LO Mach Punch vs. 4 Def Honch: 394 Atk vs 141 Def & 341 HP (60 Base Power): 234 - 276 (68.62% - 80.94%)
Jolly: 359 Atk vs 141 Def & 341 HP (60 Base Power): 214 - 253 (62.76% - 74.19%)

Coming in onto SR and one turn of sandstorm, it's a basically guaranteed KO. Granted, most TechLooms run Jolly, but that is still a potential KO with a bit of extra damage.

Don't even get me started if you mispredict and switch in on an attack, which completely ruins your ability to deal with anything, as a lot of Brelooms use their coverage Rock attack to catch fighting-resists on the switch. Honch can only switch in on spore.

 

[Zook]

Lum Berry is just about as useful as Shed Shell. Sure, it can heal other status. But then your opponent just statuses you again.

Lum Berry is generally waaaaay better than Shed Shell, don't kid yourself. Shrugging off a status condition to boost/kill the statuser is great, and it isn't soley for Breloom, unlike Shed Shell.

Why would "that Flygon thing" be sarcastic?

Because U-Turn Flygon isn't devestating.

How do you know your opponent has a Ditto? It's not like you're playing Wifi with Shadow Tag Shanderaa or anything.

You can see your opponent's team before battles start.

Way to go, shrug off a argument with "lol". That'll prove your point good.

Very mature.

Yes, all of those Pokemon you listed are really good. They're better than pretty much every other Pokemon out there, but they all can be countered without the use of a specific item, unlike Shanderaa. Breloom problem? Switch a sleep talker, or a Lum Berry, or a badly damaged Pokemon to take the Spore and then switch into a Ghost or something for the Focus Punch. Doryuuzu? Use a physically bulky Pokemon, something with Mach Punch/Aqua Jet, anything with a Focus Sash and a Water/Fighting move.

My point is that all of the Pokemon you listed have reliable counters, while Shanderaa has none, because of how hard it is to switch in on it. Unless you have U-Turn or Shed Shell or something, if he comes in on a Pokemon he can OHKO then guess what, you've lost a team mate.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Lum Berry is generally waaaaay better than Shed Shell, don't kid yourself. Shrugging off a status condition to boost/kill the statuser is great, and it isn't soley for Breloom, unlike Shed Shell.



Because U-Turn Flygon isn't devestating.



You can see your opponent's team before battles start.



Very mature.

Yes, all of those Pokemon you listed are really good. They're better than pretty much every other Pokemon out there, but they all can be countered without the use of a specific item, unlike Shanderaa. Breloom problem? Switch a sleep talker, or a Lum Berry, or a badly damaged Pokemon to take the Spore and then switch into a Ghost or something for the Focus Punch. Doryuuzu? Use a physically bulky Pokemon, something with Mach Punch/Aqua Jet, anything with a Focus Sash and a Water/Fighting move.

My point is that all of the Pokemon you listed have reliable counters, while Shanderaa has none, because of how hard it is to switch in on it. Unless you have U-Turn or Shed Shell or something, if he comes in on a Pokemon he can OHKO then guess what, you've lost a team mate.

You're talking as if running Shed Shell on one or two pokemon is the worst thing in the world. The only things that would ever run Shed Shell is Nattorei/Blissey and other assorted Steels you might see on Stall teams, all of which have their own means of recovery outside of leftovers. The only real exception is Forretress, but he has good synergy with other Wish passers so he can afford forgoing leftovers for an advantageous switch in this specific scenario.

 

[Pluvia]

If they switch a Breloom into a Fighting weak Pokemon, why would you switch to Honch? Only bad Brelooms Mach Punch first. Or switch into Rest talkers, or hell even a Lum Berry.

Still doesn't convince you that Breloom isn't uber/worse than Shan? Tell us a switch for Shandera.

 

[Wave⁂]

Wave, Honchkrow completely stops Breloom.

And Tyranitar stops Scarf Shanderaa. We can go back and forth here. Name something that takes care of my example, I name something that takes care of Shanderaa. Neither proves anything.

Never had problems with Flygon, just switch to the Jellyfish if you're expecting U-Turn I guess.

What happens when I switch in X, my sweeper that can set up on Jellyfish?

Ditto hates Will-O-Wisp and walls.

Ditto OHKOs walls with boosted moves.

The list goes on and on. You can stop all of these Pokemon by switching, something you can't do to Shan.

Sure, Shaderaa has a huge advantage in preventing switching. So what? Espeon has a huge advantage in nullifying Erufuun and Skarmory.

You can see your opponent's team before battles start.

If that's your reply, then you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Very mature.

There you go, changing the topic instead of addressing a point.

 

[Pluvia]

Tyranitar can switch into Shan? Cool, how does he do that?

 

[Wave⁂]

Shanderaa can switch into 80% of the things it kills? How does it do that?

 

[Pluvia]

You see a Pokemon it can kill, then you click Pokemon, then click your Shandera.

Now, they've just switched in a Shandera, how do you switch in Tar?

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't get the point of your post.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You see a Pokemon it can kill, then you click Pokemon, then click your Shandera.

Now, they've just switched in a Shandera, how do you switch in Tar?

Shandera can kill Forretress. Forretress used Earthquake on your switch-in. I don't get it.

 

[UltiMario]

Or Forry used EQ in General because it has 100% and Sturdy? :3

Also, Shed Shell is almost a necessity on Bulky Steels now. You just switch into your TTar :3

 

[Pluvia]

Ok to explain it simpler for you: Shadow Tag is an ability that stops your Pokemon from switching. Shandera has this ability. Tyranitar can't switch in on Shandera, it's impossible thanks to Shan's ability. You said Tyranitar can take care of Shan but not before Shan gets a free kill.

What other Pokemon do you know that's not ubers that's guarantied a free kill?

 

[Wave⁂]

Shanderaa is not guaranteed a free kill. He is usually guaranteed a "free" revenge kill, and he is almost always guaranteed a free revenge kill on a weakened Pokémon. What else is "almost always guaranteed a free kill"? Garchomp, Salamence, Breloom (because who the **** runs a team with Lum Berries), Doryuuzu.

 

[Pluvia]

So ignoring all the previous ubers and most likely soon to be ubers (that's including Dory) we have Breloom. Breloom has easy counters, as posted probably 15 different times by various members above.

So that leaves Shan. Oddly, thanks to his ability and the fact that unless you're running both Shed Shell and Tar, he appears to be lumped in with soon to be ubers.

Huh, that was supposed to convince me that Shadow Tag doesn't deserve a ban how?

 

[Wave⁂]

Ignoring Garchomp and Salamence because they were past Ubers is a small issue. Remember when Latias was Uber? And now he's UU? Remember when Celebi, Skymin, and Deoxys was Uber?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Latias is UU?

I'm surprised more aren't using her tbh.

 

[UltiMario]

Ok to explain it simpler for you: Shadow Tag is an ability that stops your Pokemon from switching. Shandera has this ability. Tyranitar can't switch in on Shandera, it's impossible thanks to Shan's ability. You said Tyranitar can take care of Shan but not before Shan gets a free kill.

I'm sorry, I'm SANE and LEARN TO ADAPT and carry SHED SHELL on my bulky Steels so that I CAN SWITCH and PURSUIT YOUR SHANDERA THAT FIRED A MERE FLAMETHROWER AT MY TTAR.

Get it now?

 

[mood4food77]

doryuuzu and garchomp are far worse than shandera, they can come in on something they resist in the sand, SD up, and then sweep everything, porygon2 can't even stop them because he's 2HKO'd by both after a SD and against 'chomp, he can miss ice beam

shandera is just annoying, comes in on something weakened and kills it, like most revenge killers do, except that most revenge killers can't trap everything

seriously, learn to double switch and shandy is much easier

 

[Pluvia]

From what I can recall Celebi wasn't uber in Gen 4 sso I don't remember him being uber. Skymin is uber, the Deoxy's are borderline, they could go either way at the moment I think but I haven't come across them that much to make a full evaluation. Haven't come across Latias either so can't make an evaluation on her.

Chomp, Dory and Mence will most likely become uber in Gen 5. Mence is debatable but he'll come back onto the forefront of everybody's attention when Chomp is banned.

Now Ulti, to summarise, Shadow Tag Shan isn't overcentralising and broken as long as you run Shed Shell on everything you don't want to get revenged and Tar?

 

[UltiMario]

Chomp, Dory and Mence will most likely become uber in Gen 5. Mence is debatable but he'll come back onto the forefront of everybody's attention when Chomp is banned.

Now Ulti, to summarise, Shadow Tag Shan isn't overcentralising and broken as long as you run Shed Shell on everything you don't want to get revenged and Tar?

1. Mence, is just a Shadow of what he once was. Now he's too slow to keep up with the new, faster metagame. Chomp's hits don't seem too menacing anymore, and he's being purely limited to a Scarfer (SDYache is slow now). Dory is debatable. It has a few counters and plenty of checks, but then again, it rips any Pokemon not on that list of Checks and Counters to shreds. You're ONLY thinking in Gen IV terms, and completely forgot that Gen V has a power creep that can send Latias to UU.

2. I've never run Leftovers on Nattorei in DW (only Bulky Steel or Grass I use, BTW), only Shed Shell. I'd run Shed Shell on Skarm if I used it, and maybe Shed Shell on Forry too. Other than this, you don't really need to run it on anything else because now Shandera has issues switching in. We keep on saying Tar because it's the BEST example because it's one of the few things that takes every Attack Shandy can throw out and Pursuit it to death but really, it's not hard to play around Shandy with Bulky Waters, forcing switches, and accumulating SR damage. Quite honestly, you suck if you have a team that's wrecked by Shandy. Shed Shell baiting with Tar is the best way to remedy the problem, but ABSOLUTELY isn't the only way.