Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[kirbyraeg]

Anything 110 or above outspeeds Scarfchomp, I just don't like using frail scarfers like that, especially since they would get mauled switching in directly.

 

[Pluvia]

Chomp has SD, Fire Fang, Dragon Claw (or Outrage) and EQ. Get a SD off and you outspeed a lot with Jolly Chomp. Slap of a Yache Berry, coupled with Sand Veil, and you have a powerhouse that can 1H or 2HK0 everything while shrugging off priority thanks to his bulk.

Edit: Ninja'd by like 4 posts, need to refresh more.

 

[xxmoosexx]

As far as Im concerned i wouldnt mind all three of them going to Ubers. It just makes it easier to knock threats off my stall team.

But i think Shandera should be the only one to go to Ubers.

Right now im lookin at

Blissey
Forry
Dusknoir/Spiritomb(I MISS ROTOM!)
Gyarados/Vaporen
Gliscor
Stockpile Toxic Hippowdon

Covers most threats reasonably well. But its all in theory. I am going to test it out on the weekend. Input would be appreciated.

But offense would be best right now.

 

[Gates]

Why no Burungeru?

 

[kirbyraeg]

I have a better idea.

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 HP
Timid / Magic Guard

Psychic
Shadow Ball/Grass Knot/Shock Wave
Focus Blast/Grass Knot/Shock Wave
HP Ice

It conveniently KO's Garchomp, 2hko's YacheChomp, 1hko's Roob with Psychic, KO's Shandy after SR, will ko Dorry and TTar if it hits with Focus Blast (also outspeeding ScarfTar), can also 2hko Hippowdon/Burungeru/other bulky waters with Grass Knot, and can even ko BulkyGyara after SR with Shock Wave (lol).

 

[xxmoosexx]

Why no Burungeru?

There are a couple of reasons
1. I don't like my pokemon being able to be trapped.
2. Dusknoir and Spiritomb either have good enough defenses to eat one or doesnt take SE damage from it.
3. Burugeru just seems...erg. Plus Gyarados gets intimidate and checks other things. Vaporeon gets wish passing. Buru just...walls stuff. I need multi-purposeful pokemon here.

4. I am now considering Desukan. I like his ability. AND he gets WoW, can atk on both sides of the spectrum, has GREAT def, has better HP than dusk. Although has a lackluster movepool it seems good enough.

Shadow Ball
WoW
Rest
(Sleep talk?) or Disable(are those allowed lol)? and if neither then Haze.

 

[Zook]

Burungeru is mad over rated. He's never once given me trouble.

 

[JOE!]

Burungeru is mad over rated. He's never once given me trouble.

Same, and my team sucks

also, i dont get the "downplay" of CB Scizor this gen, he seems just as potent as ever to me <.<

 

[The Real Gamer]

Chomp is harder to deal with than Dorry imo.

I've actually had a very easy time dealing with both Chomp and Latios thanks to Shandy.

EDIT: If this isn't enough factual evidence for a ban idk what else is. And remember this is only the top 50.

QUOTED FROM LEE FROM SMOGON

Shandera @ Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power Ice

Pokemon in the top 50 whose standard sets can be trapped, outsped and OHKO'd (after SR)

Nattorei, Doryuuzu (assuming no sand), Breloom, Jaroda, Espeon, Garchomp, Scizor, Ulgamoth, Zapdos, Dragonite, Genosect, Cloyster, Starmie, Erufuun, Gengar, Zoroark, Borutorosu, Forretress, Salamence, Randorosu, Skarmory, Gliscor, Latios, Metagross, Jirachi, Lucario, Kojondo.

That's 27/50. So just to reiterate; a whopping 54% of the metagame are forced into a checkmate position by Shandera. If you would like to continue your 'what about Duggy and Maggy!' arguments then I challenge you to compile a similar list of statistics and see if the aforementioned get anywhere near to the franky preposterous figure of 54%.

 

[UltiMario]

EDIT: If this isn't enough factual evidence for a ban idk what else is. And remember this is only the top 50.

QUOTED FROM LEE FROM SMOGON

Shandera @ Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power Ice

Pokemon in the top 50 whose standard sets can be trapped, outsped and OHKO'd (after SR)

Nattorei, Doryuuzu (assuming no sand), Breloom, Jaroda, Espeon, Garchomp, Scizor, Ulgamoth, Zapdos, Dragonite, Genosect, Cloyster, Starmie, Erufuun, Gengar, Zoroark, Borutorosu, Forretress, Salamence, Randorosu, Skarmory, Gliscor, Latios, Metagross, Jirachi, Lucario, Kojondo.

That's 27/50. So just to reiterate; a whopping 54% of the metagame are forced into a checkmate position by Shandera. If you would like to continue your 'what about Duggy and Maggy!' arguments then I challenge you to compile a similar list of statistics and see if the aforementioned get anywhere near to the franky preposterous figure of 54%.

It's a hyperbole.

The truth of it all:
Out of the above Pokemon, the following are the only ones TYPICALLY safe for Shandera to beat out at 100% (mind you Shandy DOES kill a ****ton of weakened Pokemon, but seriously, any revenge killer does and that barely matters):
Nattorei, Jaroda, Espeon, Dragonite, Starmie, Borotorosu, Scizor, Genosect, Erufuun, Borotorosu, Forretress, Skarmory, Jirachi, Lucario, Kojondo.

You know what these two lists do different?
That list factors in NOTHING. No scarves, no Speed Boosts, no common sets, just stats and typing. THIS list factors in facts like "Well Cloyster is going to have a Shell Smash" or "Most Randorosu are Scarfed too" or "Well Gengar isn't using Substitute again, why?" and even "Breloom... SERIOUSLY. It's Sporing you one turn and maybe even Subbing the next, or maybe even it can launch a Stone Edge or gets 5 hits with Bullet seed for the KO?", and the most obvious: "Doryuuzu is ALWAYS in Sand.". This list is even generous! It lists stuff that typically runs Shed Shell anyways (or at least SHOULD), and even goes along and factors in the favorite prey on revenge, on top of that, I factored in Borotorosu which will cripple Shandera for the rest of the game with priority TWave!. A REALISTIC yet generous list you see here is 15/50, or 30% of the metagame. Infernape in Gen IV is probably tearing through more than that in a single set. :/

Shandera is more overrated than Gen IV Latias. Seriously.

Also, anyone that puts Urgomoth on the list of things Shandera is killing should seriously go die in a fire because they don't deserve to live after a moronic statement like that.

 

[Wave⁂]

Choice Scarf Overheat, that'll work out nicely for you.

Also, what's wrong with Urugamoth? If it doesn't have HP Ground, it's walled and probably killed by an Overheat.

 

[The Real Gamer]

It's a hyperbole.

The truth of it all:
Out of the above Pokemon, the following are the only ones TYPICALLY safe for Shandera to beat out at 100% (mind you Shandy DOES kill a ****ton of weakened Pokemon, but seriously, any revenge killer does and that barely matters):
Nattorei, Jaroda, Espeon, Dragonite, Starmie, Borotorosu, Scizor, Genosect, Erufuun, Borotorosu, Forretress, Skarmory, Jirachi, Lucario, Kojondo.

You know what these two lists do different?
That list factors in NOTHING. No scarves, no Speed Boosts, no common sets, just stats and typing. THIS list factors in facts like "Well Cloyster is going to have a Shell Smash" or "Most Randorosu are Scarfed too" or "Well Gengar isn't using Substitute again, why?" and even "Breloom... SERIOUSLY. It's Sporing you one turn and maybe even Subbing the next, or maybe even it can launch a Stone Edge or gets 5 hits with Bullet seed for the KO?", and the most obvious: "Doryuuzu is ALWAYS in Sand.". This list is even generous! It lists stuff that typically runs Shed Shell anyways (or at least SHOULD), and even goes along and factors in the favorite prey on revenge, on top of that, I factored in Borotorosu which will cripple Shandera for the rest of the game with priority TWave!. A REALISTIC yet generous list you see here is 15/50, or 30% of the metagame. Infernape in Gen IV is probably tearing through more than that in a single set. :/

Shandera is more overrated than Gen IV Latias. Seriously.

Also, anyone that puts Urgomoth on the list of things Shandera is killing should seriously go die in a fire because they don't deserve to live after a moronic statement like that.

Based on my experience with Shandy that list you posted above is waaaay larger.

You can play the "what if" game all you want but no matter how generous those numbers are, you can't ignore the fact that Shandy puts a good chunk of the metagame in a no win situation. No matter how much Infernape sets up, or how well other revenge killers do their job there's a way around them since you can always switch out. The only way around Shandy? A dumb Shed Shell. The problem isn't Shandy itself, it's Shadow Tag. That's what separates Shandy from any other typical revenge killer.

Shandy takes literally no skill at all since it requires no prediction to revenge almost any Pokemon and that's one of the main reasons it's on so many teams and imo deserves a ban, or at least an ability ban.

 

[Pluvia]

Shandera can't knock 1HKO Yache Chomp, AKA the most common Chomp, but Chomp can 1HKO with EQ.

Plus Sand Veil is a paaaaiiiin.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Zam can beat yachechomp. =D

Clean 100% damage with its HP Ice with no boosting item, base 120 speed, magic guard protecting its focus sash, etc.

I should test it.

 

[Pluvia]

Yeah here we go, a HP Ice coming from that Shan posted above, against a 252 atk, 252 sp, 4 spdef Jolly Chomp with Yache will do 53.2% - 62.7% to him. Chomp will 1HKO Shan with EQ without any boosts, and Shan needs a Scarf otherwise Chomp will outspeed it. Also if a sandstorm is up then Shan has a chance of missing.

So basically whoever made that list above is bull****ting.

 

[kirbyraeg]

You're all getting preoccupied with what some guy from smogon said.

it isn't that big of a deal.

 

[UltiMario]

Also, what's wrong with Urugamoth? If it doesn't have HP Ground, it's walled and probably killed by an Overheat.

Butterfly Dance is what's wrong with Urgomoth.
+1 SpA. Even without HP Ground, that's a 2HKO with Flamethrower.
+1 SpD. It'll be taking that Overheat if you can (SHOULD BE ANYWAYS) keep SR away.
+1 Spe. Outspeeds Scarf Shandy even with Modest.

Also yeah the list IS bigger... when you factor in weakened Stuff.

Even if Shandera is Uber material, it'd STILL be Overrated. HEAVILY overrated. People think its twice as good as it actually is.

It'd called Adaptation. OK, you need to run Shed Shell on your Skarm and Natt. Big Whoop. Lucario has gone from bad to worse. Big Whoop.

Shandera is part of the new metagame, deal with it or leave.

 

[Wave⁂]

Oh wait, I forgot that the person who made the list was stupid and factored in Butterfly Dance. Nevermind.

 

[kirbyraeg]

How about a bulky water to counter urgomoth.

Old school FWG will make a comeback.

 

[mood4food77]

ulgamoth has flash fire, so any fire attack from shandera is doing nothing

doryuuzu and garchomp should be banned, they require no skill and only need ttar/hippo to **** anyone who doesn't carry abomasnow/golduck/ninetails/politoad

they overcentralize the metagame to a point where it can become dumb cause a team of

tyranitar/hippowdon
garchomp
doryuuzu
some special wall
some physical wall
revenge killer

can just sweep uncontested, you remove the opponents weather user, put in your SS, then get garchomp/doryuuzu in on a poke who has no chance of beating them, set up SD and then sweep everything

 

[kirbyraeg]

It has flame body mate.

Speaking of that, how about a bulky setup?

Urgamoth @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
248 HP/124 SpDef/136 Spe
Calm / Flame body

Butterfly Dance
Flamethrower
Bug Buzz/HP Ground
Rest

This turns him into something that can setup against bulky waters. At +1 with his good spdef, it takes 37% max from vaporeon's surf. Vaporeon is probably the most powerful surf you'd find on any defensive water-type. It's got good physical resistances, its only major weakness being Rock, and it's resistant to fighting and neutral to ground.

 

[mood4food77]

wow...i thought it had flash fire..my bad

 

[Pluvia]

Chomp will be banned, I'm using him on my team and I've gone 5-0 with him so much times, though I'll be sad when he is.

Dory will be banned too, otherwise I'll have lost all hope with the community. Shan's ability will be banned, which will stop it from becoming uber.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Butterfly Dance is what's wrong with Urgomoth.
+1 SpA. Even without HP Ground, that's a 2HKO with Flamethrower.
+1 SpD. It'll be taking that Overheat if you can (SHOULD BE ANYWAYS) keep SR away.
+1 Spe. Outspeeds Scarf Shandy even with Modest.

Also yeah the list IS bigger... when you factor in weakened Stuff.

Even if Shandera is Uber material, it'd STILL be Overrated. HEAVILY overrated. People think its twice as good as it actually is.

It'd called Adaptation. OK, you need to run Shed Shell on your Skarm and Natt. Big Whoop. Lucario has gone from bad to worse. Big Whoop.

Shandera is part of the new metagame, deal with it or leave.

At first thats what I said. Then it dawned on me that people could use him to trap OTHER pokemon.

Im not sure if he actually can trap and kill them successfully but imagine with me here for a sec...you throw in your blaziken..BAM shandera. HP ground ftw and a potent sweeper is gone. Jaroda...BAM shandera, he will eat that leaf storm and can slap you in the face with overheat.

To me it seems that if Shandera can trap and kill more than just walls then he is Uber. If it is only walls that can be trapped and killed by him then its not that big of a deal.

 

[Pluvia]

I'm pretty sure everyone runs HP Ice over HP Ground on Shan.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I ran HP Ground to trap ScarfTran.

 

[UltiMario]

I ran HP Ground to trap ScarfTran.

Same.

Normally I have other stuff to deal with Dragons, so I'd rather not be Heatran bait and run HP Ground.

 

[Pluvia]

I don't think HP Ground would be able to kill Tar thanks to his SpDef boost, HP Fighting might though.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Specs HP Fighting 1hkos barely.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Well. All im sayin is that Shandera aint uber IMO until we find out if he can trap more than just pokemon that just so happen to be walls.

I run into HP Ground alot more than HP fighting.
But Heatran w/balloon is ****in amazing.

I think my favorite heatran set is Balloon Sub, Dragon Pulse/a thunder move if he gets it, Fire Blast, Earth Power.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think my favorite heatran set is Balloon Sub, Dragon Pulse/a thunder move if he gets it, Fire Blast, Earth Power.

What exactly do you mean by "/a thunder move if he gets it"? I'm pretty sure Heatran has no Electric-type offensive moves.

 

[Wave⁂]

It means that moose is theorymoning what his favorite set is and has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[mood4food77]

heatran w/ balloon is really good cause you remove his main weakness until you get hit
and abusing substitute with him is nothing new, he's got awesome neutral coverage with fire blast and earth power, leaving one slot for coverage, i've run dark pulse just as an option against lati@s

 

[UltiMario]

HP Electric?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Toxic works great on subtran.

 

[Moozle]

I have a better idea.

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 HP
Timid / Magic Guard

Psychic
Shadow Ball/Grass Knot/Shock Wave
Focus Blast/Grass Knot/Shock Wave
HP Ice

It conveniently KO's Garchomp, 2hko's YacheChomp, 1hko's Roob with Psychic, KO's Shandy after SR, will ko Dorry and TTar if it hits with Focus Blast (also outspeeding ScarfTar), can also 2hko Hippowdon/Burungeru/other bulky waters with Grass Knot, and can even ko BulkyGyara after SR with Shock Wave (lol).

This is actually pretty great when focus blast hits. I've been running with Psychic - Charge Beam - Focus Blast - HP Ice and the only thing I can see changing is hp ice -> shadow ball.

Also, I seem to be the only person running Jirachi. I like it that way, but it's confusing to me since he's as good/stupid as ever.

 

[xxmoosexx]

It means that moose is theorymoning what his favorite set is and has no idea what he's talking about.

Actually I used Balloon heatran to help cover some of my team's weaknesses and i wanted to abuse forcing switches so i used substitute. And after running into bulky waters for who knows how long i desperately wanted an electric type attack to smack them before i had to switch out.

It only occurred to me yesterday and I don't play pokemon during the week or i would have looked up any electric attacks he had available if any.
=----
sigh okay Kirby

 

[kirbyraeg]

but we are all spouting off nonsense.

so relax and recognize your status as one of the club.

and

***** i look like goku

 

[Moozle]

Actually I used Balloon heatran to help cover some of my team's weaknesses

This only works if the weaknesses you're trying to cover are only fire and ground. You can't come in on heatran's other resistances because those will all break balloon.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Exactly. Fire and Ground were about it.

He serves as a check to Dory if i still have a balloon on him and Shanderas are all too common....