Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[xxmoosexx]

heatran w/ balloon is really good cause you remove his main weakness until you get hit
and abusing substitute with him is nothing new, he's got awesome neutral coverage with fire blast and earth power, leaving one slot for coverage, i've run dark pulse just as an option against lati@s

I guess Dark Pulse would be better than Dragon Pulse do to its bonuses of hitting Psychic and Ghosts.

 

[kirbyraeg]

He hits most Psychics and Ghosts harder with Fire Blast than with SE Dark Pulse, exception being Burungeru/Slowbro. Dragon Pulse is just a filler move because there isn't much better he can put in its place, which is why imo either Toxic or HP Grass/Electric fit in better than Dragon Pulse, which in turn fits in better than Dark Pulse.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Yeah. I'd probably go with Toxic.

Toxic hits all waters.

Im surprised at how little burungeru is being used right now.

And for the lack of Jirachi. I think its because people are trying stuff out right now. But I bet that Sub+Twave is working great. Dragons and steels are about all there is right now.

 

[Pluvia]

Maybe the fall in Jirachi is because of the rise in bulky pokes.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Doesnt seem plausible...I mean there aren't really many bulky pokemon introduced in Gen5 that are actually OU viable.

Roopushin, Desukan, The genies, the 4 legged fight quadruplet. Rankurusu.

Thats about all i can think of...

I think the fall in jirachi is due to better options and people tryin new stuff. Almost seems as if his niche was eradicated. Hes a great team player. But where can you fit him on a team?

 

[mood4food77]

nattorei?
burungeru?

 

[Pluvia]

Yeah the Jellyfish pretty much puts a stop to Jirachi, and Nat has Leech Seed and Protect, plus I don't think he can do much to the vulture either.

 

[xxmoosexx]

I ****ing hate that piece of **** vulture.

 

[Pluvia]

That vultures on my team, using Knock off, Whirlwind and Roost on that thing is lulzy.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I ****ing hate that piece of **** vulture.

I agree. That vulture is so much more bulkier than I originally envisioned it to be. It takes supereffective hits like a champ.

Edit - And it has a nice design, too. :3

 

[kirbyraeg]

That vulture is total trash.

It takes physical hits decently but with its common special weaknesses it leaves much to be desired as a tank.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Except that my teams are always lacking in the electric department. XD

Although I'd like to get an opinion on something.

Im looking for a spin blocker. I've narrowed it down to Dusknoir, Desukan, Spiritomb...but other suggestions are very welcome.

Dusknoir gets pretty good atk stat and Pain split. He gets Thunderpunch which is needed on my team.

Desukan is pretty bulky on the phys side and his ability stops any weather sweepers.

Spiritomb keeps Gengar from sweeping my team and stalls alot of things out with ResTalk. He makes a great status absorber until my blissey can get off an aromatherapy. Although he is lacking in raw defensive capabilites. He also doesn't get butt-****ed when a pursuiter comes in. He can retaliate or switch out. And can also deal with Bulk Up Roobushin to a point.


And Note- Will O Wisp will be rather useless as I expect Toxic spikes will be up and i have a couple of poke's running toxic to hit levitaters...coughlati@scough

Any suggestions. ALL OF THEM ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ELECTRIC TYPE MOVE WHETHER IT BE VIA THUNDERPUNCH OF HP ELECTRIC.

Gengar is a real threat to the team. Um...Gyarados is also hence the electric type move requirement. Those are about the only things I need right now. I have 2 phazers, a blissey, Forry, gliscor, and now i need a spin blocker that deals with SubSplit Gengar(If he is a relevant threat now) and is sporting electric type move that eats gyarados.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Shandera is part of the new metagame, deal with it or leave.

I'm just curious what do you have against an ability ban for Shanderra? Or anyone else for that matter?

The removal of Shadow Tag would only help to diversify and balance out the metagame I don't see how someone could possibly be against an ability ban. A plethora of Pokemon would actually become viable again. I've personally had to turn down many Steel and Grass types that I've wanted on my teams simply because I look at them and realize "Crap it's just Shanderra bait and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it unless I give it a Shed Shell."

Shandy is in no way overpowered and it would most definitely be stomped all over in Ubers play. The problem lies with Shadow Tag. Competitive Pokemon has ALWAYS been about prediction thanks to the ability to switch Pokemon in and out, and when you have a metagame-centralizing Pokemon that takes ZERO prediction to revenge pretty much ANY somewhat weakened Pokemon, all it does is ruin the competitive nature of the game.

tl;dr- I believe the ban of Shadow Tag on Shandy will allow for a more diverse, competitive, and balanced metagame.

i like popsicles

 

[Wave⁂]

Banning Shadow Tag Shanderaa is a slippery slope. Now you have nothing to revenge kill Breloom. So let's go ahead and ban Technician Breloom. Now Dory is looking pretty powerful. Ban him. And down the slope we go.

 

[The Real Gamer]

^What? Shanderra (As well as a bunch of other things) can revenge kill Breloom Shadow Tag or no Shadow Tag... Breloom would have very little reason to be banned it's not hard to get around just like in Gen 4.

And people have been discussing banning Dory for a while now. But IDK what's gonna happen concerning him, Chomp, etc.

It's all speculation.

 

[Wave⁂]

Non-Shadow Tag Shanderaa is pretty ****ty at killing Breloom, since they just switch to Blissey.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I know that but that's not even the point. Breloom wouldn't come close to becoming ban worthy just because Shandy loses Shadow Tag.

That "slippery slope" would most likely never happen with the loss of Shadow Tag... MAYBE with something like Roopushin but that guy is also easily played around.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Im just curious as to how you play around Roopushin.

Can I have an exact scenario?

I have a hard time dealing with him.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Im just curious as to how you play around Roopushin.

Can I have an exact scenario?

I have a hard time dealing with him.

I either bring in Zapdos to PP stall him out of Stone Edges and parahax him with Thunder Wave until he dies. Either scenario leaves me on top, since I'm pretty sure my Zapdos can take a Stone Edge critical provided minimal Bulk Up boosts.

 

[Plum]

Just starting to get into B/W now that I canceled my WoW subscription. First thing I've been doing is just going through every new Pokemon, and sometimes I feel like Gamefreak just hates certain Pokemon.

Looking at the genie trio, is there really any reason to use Tornelos over Voltolos or Landlos?
It has the same base stats and general movepool as Voltolos with some key differences. Tornelos gets flying moves and Voltolos gets better typing, Nasty Plot, better use of Mischievous Heart, and options like Volt Change and Thunderbolt STAB. Landlos has arguably better typing (some extra weaknesses, but is no longer weak to Rock as a key one, and gains another immunity), more bulk, a great extra STAB, use in the always prevalent Sandstorm, ability to set up and sweep, and it really just has to give up some speed (and it's still 101 base speed).

So is it just me or is it really just a competition between Voltolos or Landlos?

 

[UltiMario]

I either bring in Zapdos to PP stall him out of Stone Edges and parahax him with Thunder Wave until he dies. Either scenario leaves me on top, since I'm pretty sure my Zapdos can take a Stone Edge critical provided minimal Bulk Up boosts.

Or my Guts Boosted Stone Edge wipes the floor with you.

Looking at the genie trio, is there really any reason to use Tornelos over Voltolos or Landlos?
It has the same base stats and general movepool as Voltolos with some key differences. Tornelos gets flying moves and Voltolos gets better typing, Nasty Plot, better use of Mischievous Heart, and options like Volt Change and Thunderbolt STAB. Landlos has arguably better typing (some extra weaknesses, but is no longer weak to Rock as a key one, and gains another immunity), more bulk, a great extra STAB, use in the always prevalent Sandstorm, ability to set up and sweep, and it really just has to give up some speed (and it's still 101 base speed).

So is it just me or is it really just a competition between Voltolos or Landlos?

First, I'll just say it's nice to see you in the Pokemon Community, Plum. :V

Tornelos is a better Anti-Lead due to ****** everyone and their mother with Gale. Other than that, Voltolos does everything better on the special side, and Landlos on the physical. I guess Volotos is a better overall supporter with Prioirty Thunder Wave, too.

Also, I'm just going to throw out there that Volt Change is bad and you should just stick with U-Turn even on Voltolos due to a lack of immunity to it.

 

[Plum]

I just hate relying on something like Gale outside of rain personally.
Unless it's absolutely critical to score 1HKO/2HKO over a more accurate/weaker version I tend to opt out of the 120 power/70 accuracy moves because it just leaves more room for luck to loose you a game.

I guess that's true on Volt Change. Especially because half the teams I see online are infested with ground types or have some Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod/Motor Drive pogey. Would Volt Change be worth it on something like a Choice Jolteon? I remember using Baton Pass in Gen 4 on Specs Jolteon because its movepool basically consists of Bolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball and Hidden Power, and Baton Pass at least gave it the option to scout/bait a switch with it. If going for that option would it just be better to stick to Baton Pass for the guaranteed switch?
I can see Doryuuzu, Chomp, Landlos and the like loving to switch in on a Volt Change to get a free Swords Dance.

 

[Pluvia]

Banning Shadow Tag Shanderaa is a slippery slope. Now you have nothing to revenge kill Breloom. So let's go ahead and ban Technician Breloom. Now Dory is looking pretty powerful. Ban him. And down the slope we go.

It's not a slippery slope, Breloom can easily be played around if you have a faster Pokemon than him with a super effective attack, or if you run Espeon or Honch or anything with Taunt. Hydration on rain teams and the grass version of Hydration on sun teams ruin his primary strategy. Though Dory's pretty broken as it is so I'm all for banning him.

Im just curious as to how you play around Roopushin.

Can I have an exact scenario?

I have a hard time dealing with him.

Hippowdon completely walls him. Toxic, Slack off. If he Bulk Ups then you can just Roar him away. And though I don't use Tentacruel I'm pretty sure Roo is made completely useless by him.

 

[Wave⁂]

It's not a slippery slope, Breloom can easily be played around if you have a faster Pokemon than him with a super effective attack, or if you run Espeon or Honch or anything with Taunt. Hydration on rain teams and the grass version of Hydration on sun teams ruin his primary strategy. Though Dory's pretty broken as it is so I'm all for banning him.

You do know that there are more Pokemon than Breloom and Dory that Shanderaa stop, right?

 

[Pluvia]

Wait I'm confused. I was replying to you saying that banning Shadow Tag is a slippery slope by pointing out that the Pokemon you mentioned aren't as over-centralising as Shadow Tag Shan.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ironically I see sub+technician loom as being THE NEW WAVE OF THE FUTURE

Breloom @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Hard Stone
252 atk/252 spe/4 hp
Jolly / Technician

Substitute
Bullet Seed
Mach Punch
Spore/Fling/Focus Punch

 

[xxmoosexx]

So is Gastrodon better than Pert now?

And why?

I also agree with your idea raeg.

But im curious as to know what Hard Stone does...?

I think Spore will still be the best option for the last slot unless you need fling for a niche role on a team.

 

[kirbyraeg]

The only reason to use Hard Stone/insert other heavy item is just to have a high-BP Fling and a guaranteed KO on Shandera.

Then again, I forgot that Breloom can just use Rock Tomb to hit most of those things.

 

[UltiMario]

Then again, I forgot that Breloom can just use Rock Tomb to hit most of those things.

Or you know Stone Edge

 

[xxmoosexx]

Or you know Stone Miss

Edit:fixed

 

[kirbyraeg]

Nah actually rock tomb is better =D

If you really care please test both for me so you can see whether being able to slow down your opponents on the switch at the cost of a bit of power is worth anything at all or not.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Am I really the only one that thinks Shandy should get an ability ban?

Anyone interested enough to make a poll? :D

 

[kirbyraeg]

I don't think it should.

/poll

 

[The Real Gamer]

Seriously though almost every other Pokemon site has some sort of mass debate over it so why shouldn't we?

 

[Moozle]

I don't think it should as long as you can see your opponent's team. With SR up double switching can hurt Shandera pretty bad.

 

[UltiMario]

Seriously though almost every other Pokemon site has some sort of mass debate over it so why shouldn't we?

Because it's stupid.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I don't think the debate is stupid, I just don't see the point of a poll.

Creating a new discussion thread to discuss the specific threat of Shadow Tag Shandera is the best course of action, as a poll will merely encourage impulsive behavior.

Also remember that we're talking about something roughly as bulky as Starmie (60/90/90 vs. 60/85/85).

 

[UltiMario]

Starmie is only Bulky because of OK-ish defensive typing, Neutrality to SR, and Recover.

Shandera is weak to goddamn everything, weak to SR, and Pain Split doesn't exist because Scarf.

Don't forget to factor in that Starmie has the potentially to really run a bulkier set, where Shandera is almost wasting its time not running 4HP/252SpA/252Spe Timid.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Yeah. Starmie takes hits like a dead baby fetus.

I personally think it needs an ability ban because I also think that TeamView should be off. Even if TeamView is on i think it should get an ability ban.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Sorry double post. Stupid internet.