Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Chill]

I also think the lack of stealth rock deserves a mention. With it essentially gone that's going to make a lot more pokemon viable again. Transferred pokemon can hold onto rocks but they won't be able to use any new egg moves or abilities. I think that may have even been GFs reasoning for the new abilities. SR seems like it was a big mistake they're trying to fix. Best way to start is removing the only way to learn it from the game.

Lack of SR seems like it would make solar power Charizard pretty amazing.

 

[CT Chia]

i cant wait for a full pokedex to come out so I can start building some sets.

i wonder how long itl take for programs like Pokemon Online to incorporate the BW metagame once a online dex comes out

 

[Tomo Takino]

I also think the lack of stealth rock deserves a mention. With it essentially gone that's going to make a lot more pokemon viable again.

4th gen pokemon with stealth rock (like, almost every pokemon) can be transfered over. Stealth Rock is also a common egg move for 5th gen pokemon. Stealth Rock is still around, however the Aim thingy will stop people from using suicide leads.

 

[Wrath`]

4th gen pokemon with stealth rock (like, almost every pokemon) can be transfered over. Stealth Rock is also a common egg move for 5th gen pokemon. Stealth Rock is still around, however the Aim thingy will stop people from using suicide leads.

If the Aiming Mark is a one time use, how many people are going to want to sacrifice that item slot just so they can spin away one set of entry hazards? According to smogon mid game entry hazards are going to be on the rise.

 

[Luxor]

Anything Smogon says is more or less a self-fulfilling prophecy.

IMO SR usage is still going to be big; the benefits are just too many to ignore. Completely trashing some pokes, securing the necessary KOs, all with only one turn of setup and still a wide distribution. With the raw power flying around, it's going to be hard to find a chance to spin against offensively bent teams without giving them a free setup. The new Rapid Spin buff with Aiming Mark could be useful against stall, but I'm not convinced of stall's effectiveness this Gen, with Shadow Tag Shanderaa and other ridiculous wallbreakers running around.

 

[Blissard]

It makes me sad that hail and sandstorm are looking to be less prevalent in this generation. I was getting all excited about Regice with Ice Body too! SR usage is going to be much less, so hopefully we won't have to devote a spot to a stealth rock/rapid spinner. RD and SD are gonna take over, but it looks like RD is much more beneficial, having those cheap goggles (I hope they're banned, becase it gives so many bulky waters sweeping powers). Can't see SD doing as much, since a lot of the Chlorophyll pokemon suck, though Ninetales having Drought is cool. Waters will always go first with Swift Swim + Swimming Goggles unless against priority moves. And I think a lot of people are forgetting that, while Swift Swim and Rain Dish are pretty good, Hydration can make pokemon like Lapras run Sing/Rest, Blizzard, Thunder, and Hydro Pump (Swimming Goggles of course...) with no fear of toxic and such.

 

[PowerBomb]

Has anyone talked about Nuttre? The green spiky thing? It resists so many common moves and only has two weaknesses. It's HP is higher than Forretress' and has high Defense and Special Defense to boot. Its low speed only means Gyro Ball is boosted. Hell, it even learns Power Whip and Leech Seed.

It can also learn Thunder Wave, which is pretty cool. Spikes and Stealth Rock are also learnable iirc. Only problem is that it can't spin.

 

[Luxor]

Nuttre's gonna be a beast on rain teams, covering up electric weaks while having its fire weakness lessened.

Also, Blissard, I think Sandstorm will remain as a popular strategy. Tyranitar is still a great poke, and there's even more Sand abusers out there. Hail is buffed too, and with that Ice/Dragon it could be a viable overall strategy as well. TR got a boost too, having allsorts of strong, bulky but superslow (<30 Speed) pokes like the Bug/Steel that's not Scizor. Entry hazards will still be an issue, but controlling the weather is the key strat this gen for sure. We'll see beastly RD teams with Swift Swimmers, largely grass-based Chlorophyll teams countering them in part, and Sand/Hail disrupting either one of those for its own benefit. TR, I feel, deserves special mention because your opponent can't autoweather it away and it renders all those swift swimmers useless.

Oh, and Shanderaa will become a must on every team to catch the opposing auto-weather poke, have beastly attack power in the sun, and **** in general. Easily the most overcentralzing new poke.

 

[Wave⁂]

I agree that Sandstorm and Hail won't be used very much, solely because Sun and Rain will be used a lot.

 

[Moozle]

I can see Cloud Nine Lickilicky being very useful in this (seemingly) weather based metagame. Not only can he stop weather, but he can also explode to stop key weather based sweepers, or to stop weather starters like Ninetales or Politoed.

 

[Wave⁂]

1. Eccentric Ditto: you no longer have to use Transform. Meaning you can switch into Heatran and say **** YOU.

2. Harvest Tropius: Baton Pass Ingrain and Aqua Ring, Substitute down to your Starf Berry, then alternate between Protect and Substitute. You'll get an average of +2 in every stat.

3. Honey Gather Teddiursa: YES

 

[PowerBomb]

Perversity Smuglord, anyone?

Let's fire off Leaf Storms without negative effects, shall we? Maybe he'll become a dual screener with some use due to his speed. He learns Glare and Leech Seed, anyway.

 

[Wave⁂]

Wait. I thought Perversity would make it so that -2 SpAtk would become +2.

I guess it makes more sense that it would just negate it.

 

[Moozle]

Telepathy - It reads the mind of its team-mates and is unaffected by their attacks.

What?

I'm liking Desukan's ability more and more now that I see how many pokémon have amazing abilities this generation.

 

[PowerBomb]

Wait. I thought Perversity would make it so that -2 SpAtk would become +2.

I guess it makes more sense that it would just negate it.

If it made it become +2 instead of -2, that would be ridiculous. Not necessarily instant Uber, but instant OU.

 

[Wave⁂]

Telepathy - It reads the mind of its team-mates and is unaffected by their attacks.

It's unaffected by its teammates' attacks.

 

[Moozle]

I didn't even read the word teammate, sorry lol :embarrass

Slip Through - You slip through the opponents walls and attack.
Does this mean they disregard lightscreen/reflect? Serebii needs better explanations.

 

[Wave⁂]

Yeah. I mean, yeah to both ignoring screens and Serebii's vagueness. My spreadsheet's complete, but half of the new abilities I've left out because I can't find an accurate description of their effects.

 

[Chill]

4th gen pokemon with stealth rock (like, almost every pokemon) can be transfered over. Stealth Rock is also a common egg move for 5th gen pokemon. Stealth Rock is still around, however the Aim thingy will stop people from using suicide leads.

Yeah, I said that in the very next sentence.

Anything Smogon says is more or less a self-fulfilling prophecy.

IMO SR usage is still going to be big; the benefits are just too many to ignore. Completely trashing some pokes, securing the necessary KOs, all with only one turn of setup and still a wide distribution. With the raw power flying around, it's going to be hard to find a chance to spin against offensively bent teams without giving them a free setup. The new Rapid Spin buff with Aiming Mark could be useful against stall, but I'm not convinced of stall's effectiveness this Gen, with Shadow Tag Shanderaa and other ridiculous wallbreakers running around.

Shanderra may be banned if it has shadow tag. I'd rather it wasn't, at least not right away just to see what affect he has. 145 special attack is freaking insane though.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

wait i am confused people are talking about less stealth rocks and some items that might not be in the game but cant you trade your pokemon from D/P/P over to B/W? if so all the items and stealth rocks should be back.

edit: about the stealth rock question i should of read the posts above me

 

[Luxor]

Exactly, to both the posts above me. I think every poke has to be tested fairly for this totally new metagame; new counters or buffed old ones could make old Ubers like Garchomp thoroughly OU. Honestly, with whatchamacallit 147 Attack new dragon/Chomp/Mence/Dark Dragon/Ice Dragon ALL running around, I doubt very much that any one of them will prove to be totally broken. Even if Chomp or new Dragon (I've gotta learn thses names lol) turn out to be an amazing offensive threat, they'll very likely not be broken simply because everything is broken this gen. Even stall teams will be pretty ridiculous with a Crobat/Aerodactyl running Swimming goggles/Sleep talk/Whirlwind. On a side note, that gimmick alone could 100% force you to have SOME priority on your team. Scizor ain't goin' nowhere this time around.

 

[Gates]

I like Breakable Armor Skarmory. It utilizes its ability as a physical tank to come in on hits and then get a speed boost. This is bad for Skarm that run attacks, but who does that seriously.

Cloud Nine Altaria is going to be very important.

Competitive Spirit Primeape is going to be really good since it means Close Combat will increase your attack every time you use it.

Dust Prook Shelgon is gonna be mad cute in Middle Cup.

I'm interested in seeing just how much Encourage increases damage by.

Flash Fire Typhlosion is going to be really good.

Heart of Justice could be good on Lucario but it seems pretty narrow. At the very least it'll make him a great Darkrai counter in Ubers.

Heat Rampage Drifblim seems like it was created for the sole purpose of boosting his passing versatility.

Heavy Metal seems like a really stupid ability, which is a shame since it's got a great name. Maybe if there were some attacks that did more damage as weight increased, like if they redid Body Slam or something.

Herbivore Miltank could be some svg tech if FWG cores continue to be used in UU.

Regice with Ice Body is a big improvement. I think a lot of hail teams shied away from Regice because he couldn't tank well enough.

Immunity Gligar seems like it could help its tanking abilities in NU and LC.

**** YEAH INCONSISTENT SMEARGLE.

Iron Fist Infernape seems pretty **** good actually. Thunderpunch getting boosted makes him even better against Gyarados and waters. At the very least it'll be more useful than Blaze.

Leaf Guard Meganium seems better than the standard Meganium at least. I mean if you're going to have a defensive pokemon it should have a defensive ability.

Light Metal Registeel seems really good. Low Kick still hurts him really bad, but with enough of a defensive investment he can power through it.

Magic Guard Alakazam seems pretty **** good.

Marvel Scale Dratini and Dragonair will be useful in LC and MC.

Mischevious Heart seems interesting. I wonder how it will affect things like Roar or Whirlwind.

Multi-Scale Dragonite seems like it could eb a solid lead. Generally though the ability doesn't seem useful in any other context.

Overconfidence seems like it was given to all the right pokemon, as well as random stuff like Mightyena and Pinsir. Attack reductions for these sweepers are now a non issue and increasing speed is now the main method of sweeping. Scarfed versions of all these pokemon are going to soar in popularity, Swimming Goggles Gyarados is going to be extremely good, and we may even see Tailwind Honchkrow and Salamence. I also can't wait to revenge kill these guys on shoddy and say "Your overconfidence is your weakness" and wait for my opponent to say "Your faith in your friends is yours".

Poison Heal Gliscor is going to become insanely good.

Poison Rampage Zangoose could be good if it also negates the damage from poison. If not then it's just a bad Guts.

Rain Dish Blastoise and Tentacruel are going tobe very good in rain teams.

Reckless Staraptor could be a cute trick if only for having a 240 power Brave Bird. It seems like a bad idea in a metagame with lots of priority users though.

Regeneration is exactly what Ho-Oh needed.

Sand Strength is interesting, but almost all the pokemon who get it have better abilities.

Sand Throw Sandslash sounds pretty **** good and will find a nice in sand teams for sure.

Scrappy Swellow will be good, but I'm not sure if it will be better than Guts or not.

Anything that has Shadow Tag is instantly going into my team.

Skill Link Ambipom could be good if he got any decent moves like that.

Slip Through seems like a good ability, but I can only see it being used on Crobat and maybe offensive Spiritomb.

Speed Boost anything is really good, but Blaziken especially.

Sturdy Regirock is going to be quite good.

Swift Swim Poliwrath is going to be the core of my next team.

Special attacking Technician users like Roserade could be good, but I can't really think of what it would boost aside from Hidden Power.

Tension seems like a good ability but I can't think of anything that would actually use it.

I really don't understand Tera Voltage at all. Does that mean it can use electric attacks on ground types and stuff with Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/etc. or what? Same thing with Turbo Blaze and Flash Fire. Do these abilities also allow you to hit like Miracle Eye or Foresight would?

Thick Fat Mamoswine isn't terrible but it doesn't make him that much better either. I suppose at the very least it gives him an ice resist and negates one of his many weaknesses.

Unburden Sub Sceptile could be a cool thing to use.

Does Victory Star only work when Victini is out? If so then it's mostly just good for double battles. Still, increased accuracy Fire Blast will be good on him.

Volt Absorb Raikou will make for a good tank-ish sweeper. The real question is can he keep Aura Sphere? Probably not, but if he can then he'll be OU for sure.

Water Absorb Lanturn could be pretty cool. I'd like to see how it end up being.

I'm interested in seeing how Wicked Theif will work on Weavile.

That's about it for new Dream World abilities.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Heat Rampage seemed like a gift to special attackers who suffer from status, until only Driftloon got it.

 

[Blissard]

I thought that you'd lol at guts flareon, but he wasn't even mentioned above -_- I was doing further thinking on the weather teams. Hail is basically out; abomasnow as the only "infinite" hailer is extremely fragile, and if its hail ends, it'll be really troublesome for the team, as using the move hail is really inconvenient. Sandstorm has 2 infinite sandstormers, which still makes it viable, since ss gives nice spc def boost against both rd and sd teams, and nuttre seems to fit in well here. SD and RD metagame is gonna change alot between their respective fire/grass pokemon and water/ice pokemon.

anyone else excited about the mouse pokemon, chirachiino? doubt it's ability in battle, but it's soooooo cwooot.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I thought that you'd lol at guts flareon, but he wasn't even mentioned above -_-.

But I did.

Guts Flareon - Lol.

Unless you weren't talking to me, of course.

 

[Blissard]

But I did.



Unless you weren't talking to me, of course.

Lmao, I was referring to Gates' big big big list.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Lmao, I was referring to Gates' big big big list.

My bad. XD

Anyways, I really like the archeoptarix (spell fail) Pokemon, but his ability is terrible so I probably won't use it.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Has all the abilities been revealed yet? Can't find it online, but curious about Tyranitar :3

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Serebii has an updated Ability Dex so I'd assume most if not all of them have been translated and their effects figured out.

 

[Blissard]

Can somebody clarify the ability Mischievious Heart? If all non-attacking moves have priority, I could definitely see uses for it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Can somebody clarify the ability Mischievious Heart? If all non-attacking moves have priority, I could definitely see uses for it.

We don't actually know how much priority though.

 

[Gates]

I thought that you'd lol at guts flareon, but he wasn't even mentioned above -_-

I skipped a lot of the ones that I thought were pointless or stupid. Guts Flareon in particular is dumb since he's forced to use a Toxic Orb to activate it.

Hail is basically out

It was never good in the first place.

Has all the abilities been revealed yet? Can't find it online, but curious about Tyranitar :3

Tyranitar's Dream World ability makes the opponent not use their berries. It's really stupid. If your team is really adverse to Sandstorm I could see it being used, but otherwise it's just crap.

 

[Wave⁂]

List of abilities that have unspecific or missing details:

Competitive Spirit
Healing Heart
Iron Barbs / Steel Thorns
Justice Heart
Miracle Skin
Mischievous Heart
Sand Power
Sand Strength
Sand Throw
Victory Star
Weak-kneed / Faint Hearted
Cursed Body
Encourage
Analyze
Friend Card
Heat Rampage
Inconsistent
Multi-Scale
Poison Hand
Poison Rampage
Self-Conscious

If anyone knows the exact effect of any of these, my spreadsheet will be very grateful.

 

[Pete278]

Do we actually have confirmation Competitive Spirit works with moves that you use, i.e. Close Combat? It seems really good if it does. Even so, making it harder for Gyarados and Mence to switch in on you is already good.

 

[PowerBomb]

List of abilities that have unspecific or missing details:

Competitive Spirit
Healing Heart - Partner is unaffected by status in double/triple battles
Iron Barbs / Steel Thorns - Rough Skin duplicate, I think
Justice Heart - Dark-type moves are absorbed and your attack = +1
Miracle Skin - At full HP, you take less damage?
Mischievous Heart
Sand Power - Power of Ground, Rock, and Steel-types are increased in a Sandstorm?
Sand Strength - Attack is increased during a Sandstorm?
Sand Throw - Speed is increased during a Sandstorm?
Victory Star
Weak-kneed / Faint Hearted - At 50% HP stats are halved (bar health)
Cursed Body
Encourage - Attacks are boosted, but their secondary effects are negated
Analyze - If an attacker goes last, the power of the moves increases
Friend Card
Heat Rampage
Inconsistent
Multi-Scale
Poison Hand
Poison Rampage - When poisoned, physical attacks become stronger
Self-Conscious

If anyone knows the exact effect of any of these, my spreadsheet will be very grateful.

That's about what I know from the top of my head.

 

[Wave⁂]

Oh ****, Justice Heart = Heart of Justice

SCREW YOU, INCONSISTENT TRANSLATIONS

Everything else I already know, but I don't have the specifics. Also Serebii says Healing Heart "occasionally" heals status.

 

[Pete278]

Bit of theorymon by here on my blog, decided to hurry up and post it even though it's not finished because otherwise you guys would be way ahead of me (which you already are anyway).

http://www.bulletpunch.com/2010/09/generation-5-discussion-part-1.html

It'll be finished later, with more on the items, and new pokemon, alongside beta 'movesets' from the little we know at the moment, because I enjoy Theorymon more than actually playing Pokemon.

 

[The Real Gamer]

That was a very enjoyable read, Pete.

Good work.

 

[Tomo Takino]

What psychic lacks in type coverage, it makes up for it the movepool it now grants the user. Yes, Psychic has taken a massive beating over the years, however, aside from TTar, walling a psychic type has become incredibly difficult thanks to its new move, BP 100, PP 10, hitting the target's physical defense, using the attacks special attack. Then considering the amazing fighting pokemon that have arised this gen, I imagine we will see a lot more use of Psychic types this gen, as well as the return of Alakazam, especially Alakazam with Magic Guard.

Ala@ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 Special Attack, 252 Speed, 4 defense
Psychic Shock
Psychic
Focus Blast/HP Fighting
Shadowball/Substitute
would be pretty good, depending on how the metagame works out.

Even outside of the psychic typing, I still feel you underrate Victini. With Fire/Psychic STAB, being granted Psychic Shock, as well as its ability increasing the accuracy of Focus Blast to deal with Heatran, Victini seems incredibly hard to wallout. I expect it to be an incredibly potent force.

Also, on your next article, don't forget to talk about the change in the priority system, making Extreme Speed +2. Now Dragonite has something to claim, as its no longer easily revenged killed by a Bullet Punch, unlike Salemence. Even more, Dratini gets this as an egg move, meaning it will be compatible with 5th gen movesets, and we aren't clear if Dream World abilities can be passed through breeding yet, but if it can, Dragonite will have a lot to offer over its dragon brethren. This also makes Sword Dance Lucario that much more frightening.

 

[Pete278]

Well, there's also the new Dark/Dragon Hydra, and Kamen Rider to deal with for psychic types, so it's not like TTar is the only Dark type that'll be used. And when I wrote the bit for Victini, what Victory Star did wasn't revealed, so I didn't know the Focus Blast bit.

And yeah, I won't forget Extremespeed, if I even get up to the old pokemon. Sigh, so many new ones to talk about, even skipping the ones that aren't very useful.