***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[NESSBOUNDER]

Hmm, I wonder if there's some kind of cap for how weak the move can get? If so, it seems like the caps are much more extreme than they were in Melee.

 

[tutter]

This is so so important, forget "advanced techs" find out the mechanic behind this !

 

[S2]

You actually had to hit and deal damage with other attacks in order to reverse damage decay on staled moves. How many hits you needed to make depends on how "staled" the attack was. Also, rapid jabs and other multi-hit attacks which consisted of a single input will only cause one count of move decay like any other attack. The passage of time did absolutely nothing to bring damage back.

Thanks for the quick response.

I know this was asked earlier, but I didn't see if anyone knew the answer. Zelda's F-air and B-air count as different attacks correct? Because that's really in her favor if they do, since they are near identical the same move and deadly as hell.

 

[k4polo]

Nice find Ryoko. I did notice this too from the marth vids when the dude spam forward smash with him. AT damages over hundred and at the tip of the blade should be instant KO but in some cases it is not.

I also noticed that other moves that should be instant KO after over 100%, didn't KO. And in most cases, it was a spammed move.

Maybe over usage of move as you proposed. This adds some balance to the game that I have to agree on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB4EW38yedo

 

[Masque]

Since I already responded with how excited I am about this discovery, I'll just comment on how amusing Ryoko's new title is.

 

[Darkslash]

Hmm Thinking in SSB? AGAIN. I likey

 

[RyokoYaksa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ74srVgGRU - This matchup between Gimpyfish and an unknown zelda shows this effect really well, skip forward onto the last stock, the zelda player repeatedly uses the fsmash 5-7 times in a row with only an occasional hit between, by the end, the half-charged Fsmash is only sending gimpy at 170% barely off the screen. She then connects with as single ftilt and KO's gimpy pretty far off the top.

Thank you.

This is the exact video footage I needed to show that this effect is blatantly obvious in this game. For any idiot who still doesn't believe this is in, watch this video carefully from 2:38 to the end as Zelda abuses her Fsmash on Bowser.

 

[Lunaretic]

Thank you.

This is the exact video footage I needed to show that this effect is blatantly obvious in this game. For any idiot who still doesn't believe this is in, watch this video carefully from 2:38 to the end as Zelda abuses her Fsmash on Bowser.

You're welcome, glad it helped. : )

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Very clear example there. After only a few hits of her Fsmash, it becomes almost useless as a KO move. This is quite exciting stuff.

 

[PilotEvan]

This is great. A good player would have the ability to use every move in his/her arsenal, but this mechanic forces you to use them all in order to play well.

 

[debaser]

Wow, that's a pretty drastic change. Great find, I'm interested to see how this will all play out.

 

[Cubemario]

Yeah, this is so huge I registered here and posted. This is a great change.

 

[S2]

Yeah the damage reduction for Zelda's F-smash in that video isn't too bad (I believe it started at 16% and by the end of the abuse is around 11%, roughly a third of its power is lost). I don't think this is going to be a big enough penalty to keep anyone from spamming projectiles or other moves ifthe opponent is at low percent.

But the knockback... wow. The knockback decrease is a really big deal. Zelda's f-smash was basically useless by the end there.

I kept thinking that Zelda should tried for an f-air when the f-smash clearly wasn't getting close to KOing Bowser.

 

[Losnar]

Soooo does this affect B button attacks, I'll ask again?

 

[davidhudgin]

I know that dieing resets everything damage and knockback wise just like in 64, but what about transforming. Could a Zelda spam her fsmash for example, then switch to shiek and shiek's fsmash be gimped? and would transforming back negate everything? I could then see PT taking full advatage of this new mechanic.

 

[kKor]

Won't this be bad in a way?? Especially for good players. If the good player is winning and has a 2 stock advantage over the other player, then all his moves will most likely be way weaker and give the other player a chance to catch up.. IMO this is Sakurai's way of making brawl balanced between good players and new players.

 

[davidhudgin]

also check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POUo-905Zuk
The Wario seems to simply spam his nair which by the end is completely useless

 

[EpitomeX]

Can we get someone in here who has the game to gives us further info on this.

This is awesome, thankyou RyokoYaksa!!!

 

[Sugata Designs]

Won't this be bad in a way?? Especially for good players. If the good player is winning and has a 2 stock advantage over the other player, then all his moves will most likely be way weaker and give the other player a chance to catch up.. IMO this is Sakurai's way of making brawl balanced between good players and new players.

As Ryoko said, attacks "lose" their staleness after switching up attacks, so having more lives isn't really a disadvantage

 

[S2]

Don't forget that the damage decay resets when you die.

So it doesn't give that much of a chance to catch-up. And if you vary your attacks, nothing will decay. It only happens when you use 1 or 2 attack repeatedly without damaging the opponent with other attacks in between.

 

[kKor]

oh I see, so if I use other attacks then the damage and knockback will slowly come back?? If that's the case then this is awesome.

 

[rushehidaka]

It's not more depth if you have to limit your use of certain attacks and go for inferior comboes to prefer the KO-ability of your best moves. It's less depth as now you have no choice but to use the inferior of two combos.


It's only useful for Stale Moving certain tilts to provide more comboability, but, heck, freeze frames and DI.

I registered just to disagree with you.

Firstly, this vastly opens the depth of the game because not only do those "inferior" combos become a viable option (and just an option), the "stronger combos" can evolve into stupidly long chains provided that the smasher has the skill to perform it. So you trade off smash power for combo power. Even if you have a two stock lead and you're ahead, if you're skilled enough, you will utilize the diminished attacks to chain ridiculous combos and potentially just dominate someone from 0% to death!

Furthermore, nothing prevents you from using those strong smash attacks if you feel that the time is right to use them. The game has given you THE CHOICE of using them early to unlock crazy combo chains, or save them to deliver lethal killing blows. You now have options which can unlock a wide variety of playing styles which cater to your TASTE and not your reflexes in "stock" situations. If anything, this just makes the game MASSIVELY more unpredictable because an experience played could change his playstyle MIDFIGHT when he respawns with a new stock!!

And even better: so far atleast, heavier characters don't seem to be affected as much by Ryoko's DR (diminishing returns) so it makes those characters so much more viable in tournament situations. Ike vs Sheik in the US finals, anyone?

If anything, this find will make the gap between pros and noobs so big it'll be hilarious.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I wonder, do certain attacks have a greater "refresh rate" than others?

For example, if you used Zelda's Lightning kick 3 times in a row, would it become full power again faster if you used another smash attack, or if you used a whole bunch of weak, faster moves?

 

[Magus420]

...combos...stupidly long chains...chain ridiculous combos...from 0% to death!...crazy combo chains

?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Does it have the same effect if the move never hits anyone?

Because I have a habit of spamming attacks even when nobody's near me >_>

This is great to know, this will be fun to experiment with. Better juggles? Combos taking advantage of weaker knockback? No more annoying dsmash spam?

 

[Zodiac]

I would like to say one thing, When we started playing melee, next to none of us knew about advanced techniques or tournament rules, we just played the game and figured it out on our own. I always discovered that when teaching someone smash mentioning advanced techs would greatly confuse them and they would throw away the game. but when I simply said, "You wanna smash" and they smash, not knowing anything about advanced techs, and they keep smashing, and get "good" at the game. Five or six months down the line when they've really started "shining" I tell them, "You know, you can land that attack faster and go into a combo" they say "BS" I say, "Lol noob, watch this" (Select captain falcon SHFFL DAIR to JAB GRAB > UP THROW > KNEE.) "WTF! how did you go that fast? when did you switch it to lightning melee?!" "I used a technique called SHFFLing" They reply "The F is that?" ....After learning the basics they do so much better then me yelling at them right off the bat "YOUR A NOOB UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO WAVEDASH AND SHFFL!"

We, all of us are noobs to brawl. Accept it, and we will have to learn this game form the ground up in order to learn its inner most secrets. None of us learned how shffl in a day, most of already thought we were really good at the game until we were introduced to these techniques. Now in six to seven months we may be at the point where we can start naming things "Advanced Techniques" where as now many are just trying to adapt it the melee competitive "Standard"

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The thing is though, when Melee was first released, the competitive scene for SSB64 was nothing like it is for Melee now. We have more to go off for Brawl.

 

[Saigo]

Holy hell...moveset tweaking and customization in midfight? This is an amazing discovery indeed. This could in fact weave a new layer into mindgames. Your opponent approaches with an attack: Is he trying to use the move for the sake of its full power, or its tweaked power? Or is he going to use it in an effort not to tweak its power for a combo, but to make you think he's tweaking for a combo, and then surprise you with a full power KO move. Not to mention this opens up an interesting sort of battle option: Attacking for the purpose of customizing your moves. Of course, you'd have to hit the opponent with the move, and it may leave you open.

Which brings me to my next point: While I'm aware that a move has to connect in order to diminish, does it have to connect with a character?

For instance, a Peach KO'd the opponent and they're respawning. Said Peach wants to tweak her Utilt for a potential combo in the very near future. Can she then pull a turnip out, throw it upward, and tweak the Utilt by hitting it? If so, this can open a realm of possibility with characters that can generate items like Peach, Dedede (though he has less of a use for it), Diddy (assuming you can hit back bananas), Zamus, and maybe others. Also if you're fighting Olimar, you may be able to tweak using a move by hitting stray pikmin.

And on another note, does Tweaking (I kinda like this name ) affect Smash Balls? Does it affect how far it goes or how many more hits will be needed? Or is the Smash Ball too fickle a thing to be so formulaic in terms of durability and trajectory?

All of this is fascinating, and definitely requires much more research into the matter.

 

[drengist]

We already are lightyears ahead of casual players. Casual player may accidentaly invent the next wavedash, but never realise how useful it might be and quickly forgets it. When somebody of us figures out how to do something useful he makes a thread and then we all know about it. This is because Melee created the competetive mindset.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

^^^ QFT

Am I the only one who would airdodge horizontally into Corneria's upward slope as a noob? >_>

zomg waveland

 

[UrajKingofDarkness]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ74srVgGRU

For further evidence supporting the idea of this diminishing knockback, I found this video GimpyFish recently posted. Notice that around the 3:02 mark (and all the way to the end of the vid) Zelda hits Bowser with not 1 or 2, but at least FIVE forward smashes (and remember, Zelda's now actually strong).

Also notice that, while Bowser has considerable damage that goes up with each hit, his flight distance is roughly the same for every hit. Also notice that she doesn't hit with any other moves between the smashes, and only finally KO's when she uses a ftilt instead.

This video gives even more legs for this speculation to stand on, and really could mean a whole new level of metagame for Smash Brawl. It excites me quite a bit.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lol, Brawl Fights are going to end up being "IMA CHARGIN MY LAZUR!" or "IMA DOWNGRADING MAH PH0W3R H!T$!" battles.

 

[Saigo]

Lol, Brawl Fights are going to end up being "IMA CHARGIN MY LAZUR!" or "IMA DOWNGRADING MAH PH0W3R H!T$!" battles.

Of course. And this can only be awesome XD

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Of course. And this can only be awesome XD

YEs. Basically, it'll be a game of "punch the face" until the time comes to hit with KO moves. I can see battles starting off with really strong attacks, then changing to a bunch of weak, soft hits, and then becoming strong again.

 

[Fawriel]

Wait, so I will actually have to THINK? Bugger!

Interesting, though... this is quite complex and will definitely help a metagame to evolve. Now let's hope Sakurai managed to balance this aspect of the game as well, or we'll end up with only 3 characters who can actually combo well and then successfully finish off the opponent... >_> <_<

Gah, I'll really have to specialize in some characters to fully realize their potential!

 

[RyokoYaksa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ74srVgGRU

For further evidence supporting the idea of this diminishing knockback, I found this video GimpyFish recently posted. Notice that around the 3:02 mark (and all the way to the end of the vid) Zelda hits Bowser with not 1 or 2, but at least FIVE forward smashes (and remember, Zelda's now actually strong).

Also notice that, while Bowser has considerable damage that goes up with each hit, his flight distance is roughly the same for every hit. Also notice that she doesn't hit with any other moves between the smashes, and only finally KO's when she uses a ftilt instead.

This video gives even more legs for this speculation to stand on, and really could mean a whole new level of metagame for Smash Brawl. It excites me quite a bit.

Some things now.

First, that video was linked in this thread several hours ago, and I already updated the first post with it.

Secondly, even with the accumulated damage, Bowser was gradually suffering less knockback, which then kept getting worse as more Fsmashes were connected. At 177 damage, Bowser only got sent as far as a "fresh" Fsmash from Zelda would have if it put his damage to 90-95. The effect is drastic enough at this point where it's not even worth trying to KO with that move anymore, you have to use something else that hasn't decayed.

Third, this is not speculation. This mechanic is in Brawl, and it is observable in nearly any match video you see.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Heh...I wonder if the decay for Zelda's Fsmash still applies if they DI out of it. >_>

*runs*

 

[UrajKingofDarkness]

I forgot to say I wasn't sure if that video had been found yet...should have known you guys were on the ball.

And I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't think this exists, because I certainly do, I was only referring to people who might argue against it. I don't doubt this for a second, though, Ryoko, keep up what you're doing.

 

[DRaGZ]

Holy crap.

This is the most amazing thing I have seen for Brawl yet.

This is important enough to be stickied. Hard.

 

[Zodiac]

RyokoYaska,There have been many of my apprentices (like 4) that have begged the question, is Ryoko Yaska a girl? And I have replied "I do not know."