***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[Sliverstorm]

I think it's worth noting, in case it hasn't been said before, that not all attacks suffer from this. I tried toon link's arrows and damage did not change, regardless what charge. additionally his neutral a did not loose damage. My current hypothesis is moves that are innately charge-type may not be affected, and regular a moves aren't affected either due to being your mainstays and so generic *shrug*

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'd love to sticky it, but there is already a sticky that is a compilation of discoveries, which is more comprehensive than a thread on a single discovery. And I could write freaking essays on what this could do to smash in general, but I don't really feel like it (and I'd rather just watch it happen then predict it ^_^).

I'm just wondering how much difference there will be in the American version of Brawl. With a whole month available to tweak the game, I could definitely see "glitches" (like peach's glide throw) and things that are "broken" (like spamming Pikachu's A against the wall is an infinite combo) being removed. But will they tweak this system? Perhaps make it more accessible to players that aren't that good by reducing the knockback reduction? I really hope they don't change it, but with a whole freakin' month between releases... I dunno what to expect. Although I really hope they change that freaking squeaky noise when Snake grab punches people. I know its supposed to reduce the violent aspect of it... but the squeak is just WAY too silly.

 

[DarkDeadlyCages]

Yah it is, seeing as Snake was already made silly enough to even fit into Brawl. I was watching a few videos with him in it trying to figure out what that noise was. *sigh*

 

[S2]

If you Fsmash someone once and it doesn't KO, it will not KO the 2nd time if used in succession. Or the 3rd time. Or the 4th time. Or the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th time.

Because of that, I think very soon after the US version comes out people here are going to start having lists of what moves generally KO at what percent by opponent weight.

If using a kill move at say just 10% earlier then the minimum percent its a guranteed KO even with good DI... then it basically ruins your chance of KOing with that move at all unless you go for a high damage kill and use it later.

If that's true, part of what'll make good player exceed is simply the knowledge of what percent to use what move.

I mean, this was true in Melee to an extent (but I saw it more with chainthrows and between which percents you could score them then killing moves). But given how much more importance the damage decay is here, it'll probably become much more prominent and well known.

 

[Lunaretic]

I think it's worth noting, in case it hasn't been said before, that not all attacks suffer from this. I tried toon link's arrows and damage did not change, regardless what charge. additionally his neutral a did not loose damage. My current hypothesis is moves that are innately charge-type may not be affected, and regular a moves aren't affected either due to being your mainstays and so generic *shrug*

Question, were you testing in Training/Practice mode? As mentioned previously, the moves don't atrophy in training mode.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

Couldent you also use the fact spammed moves have less knockback for certain moves to make combos easier due to less knockback?

ie: hit a nair with pit 15 times and its a minimum knockback.. making follow up options easier due to closeness?


or is less knockback also including actual stun from the move itself... hmm.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This change in physics further explains the reasoning behind being able to hold the A button for effortless flurries.

 

[GreenKirby]

Why is everyone freaking out over this?

This is the exact same mechanic that was in Melee.

Not only that, the rate and amount by which an attack diminishes (1-2% every 8 swings based on attack) isn't enough to promote more verity, especially with with such a short reset time.

Marth isn't going to stop spamming fair over a 3% dmg difference just because he swung 20 times - no one is.

Didn't read the first post at all. It not only decreases damage BUT ALSO knockback.

 

[neoREgen]

I guess this would make playing with something like 99 stock pretty impossible after a while.

 

[F@lc0-san]

I guess this would make playing with something like 99 stock pretty impossible after a while.

It resets upon death

 

[neoREgen]

It resets upon death

It also apparently levels out as you use other attacks.
I'd read the first post before, but not with mugwhump's 'science' quote.

Well, this is a pretty good system, then.

Death and using other moves recharges the previously weakened spammed attacks.
Cool.

 

[kirborg]

I'd love to sticky it, but there is already a sticky that is a compilation of discoveries, which is more comprehensive than a thread on a single discovery. And I could write freaking essays on what this could do to smash in general, but I don't really feel like it (and I'd rather just watch it happen then predict it ^_^).

I'm just wondering how much difference there will be in the American version of Brawl. With a whole month available to tweak the game, I could definitely see "glitches" (like peach's glide throw) and things that are "broken" (like spamming Pikachu's A against the wall is an infinite combo) being removed. But will they tweak this system? Perhaps make it more accessible to players that aren't that good by reducing the knockback reduction? I really hope they don't change it, but with a whole freakin' month between releases... I dunno what to expect. Although I really hope they change that freaking squeaky noise when Snake grab punches people. I know its supposed to reduce the violent aspect of it... but the squeak is just WAY too silly.

I thought about this too, and I figured since we are able to fight people around the globe trough the online mode the fighting mechanics should be universal too. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to battle someone in Japan who uses a different game version. The only way they could remove this is if they launch a new patch to fix all the unintended glitches.

 

[Card]

I'm just wondering how much difference there will be in the American version of Brawl. With a whole month available to tweak the game, I could definitely see "glitches" (like peach's glide throw) and things that are "broken" (like spamming Pikachu's A against the wall is an infinite combo) being removed. But will they tweak this system? Perhaps make it more accessible to players that aren't that good by reducing the knockback reduction? I really hope they don't change it, but with a whole freakin' month between releases... I dunno what to expect. Although I really hope they change that freaking squeaky noise when Snake grab punches people. I know its supposed to reduce the violent aspect of it... but the squeak is just WAY too silly.

You know I had a theory...

When you compare the American Demo to the Japanese Demo, you can see glaring obvious differences between the two. Judging simply based off of Gimpyfish's Impressions on the American E4All Demo, versus the Impressions of the WHOBBY and Japan Kiosk Demos, you can see how there is a VERY large difference between the two.

The American version had many of the features that a lot of users on our boards are complaining about being gone (Dash Dance, New L-Cancel, Crouch Cancel, etc...). The Japanese Demo's and Release version has many of these features pulled.

I know that there was a 1-2 month difference between these Demo's, but could it be possible that the NTSC-J and the NTSC-U versions of Brawl would be different to reflect the different playstyles of players? It's a farfetched thought, but maybe... just maybe the two versions might be different?

Probably won't happen though, but it was just a thought haha Still love Brawl anyways.

 

[Proven]

A.) The "glide throw" isn't really a glitch. Mostly because the "glide throw" is the primary way that people using the wii remote by itself will throw away items on the ground (shield + attack, B + 2).

B.) I believe a small patch can be made using the Wii's update system and adding a few things to Brawl's memory file. Since we're worrying about playing online, which requires internet access, just connecting to Nintendo Wifi Connection to add a tiny fix. Well, this depends on it being tiny.

 

[Artisan]

This is quite an interesting thought in all respects. And pounding on Shy Guys is profitable now?

Your power levels are not increased by ... switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).

I assume this also means that hitting mutiple people with one attack only counts as one attack towards refreshing your moves? And the same for hitting a person and a stage element like the shadow moses walls at different times (like if you use Lucas's PK Thunder and hit through an enemy and hit a wall a couple seconds later)?

A couple other questions:

-How do Final Smashes figure into this? I'm particularly interested in how Yoshi's Final Smash interacts with it, since those fireballs couldn't really be considered anything but mutliple attacks, I would think.

I'm fairly sure, at least in the E4All demo, that Yoshi's fireballs always did 25% damage. Is that still the case, and do they get any knockback reduction? There is also the question of how his fire breath interacts with it (along with Bowser's and Charizard's.) And would each fireball hit count toward refreshing your moves, would they not count at all, or what?

A bunch of other final smashes might also be interesting to test. I'd imagine the Zero Laser would count as one hit, but what about the Triforce Slash? Diddy's peanuts during his final smash? Would Marth's count as a hit at all? What about Donkey Kong's beats, or the hits from Pikachu's Volt Tackle (the ones that just cause damage, not knockback.)

Oh, and I guess hitting the smash ball would also count as a refresh...

-Do thrown items count, or turnips?

-What about summoned creatures? Things like Waddle Doo's electric attack, centurions from Pit's Final Smash, pokeballs and assist trophies and such.

 

[tw1n]

Oh my god this adds a whole new depth and a whole new way of thinking into Brawl... Very VERY impressive

 

[Magus420]

If grab hits still count as separate attacks on the stale moves list like they did in Melee, then grabbing would be a great way to get your power moves you may have used to build damage back up near their full KO strength.

Some character's grab hits are at least twice as fast as grab hits were in Melee, so with 3-6 grab hits at mid-high damage plus the throw that'd really flush out much of the stale moves list (Melee's was the last 9 attacks or so iirc, and appears to be the same length in this game looking at the numbers). I've seen Wolf for example do like 4-5 grab hits in under a second. Even if you had spammed it, that should get the move almost back up to it's full knockback, since it's reduced by a greater amount the more recent it is on the list.

Someone should test this. ^^

 

[leafgreen386]

I thought about this too, and I figured since we are able to fight people around the globe trough the online mode the fighting mechanics should be universal too. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to battle someone in Japan who uses a different game version. The only way they could remove this is if they launch a new patch to fix all the unintended glitches.

Pokemon diamond and pearl fixed glitches in the english version from the japan version, which has wifi.

Background info on example: There's a move in that game called "pursuit," which deals double damage against a switching pokemon. Normally, moves just attack whoever is out at the moment, but this one activated before the switch if they were switching (the very first action in a turn, before any other moves could be used), and at the normal time if not, and generally didn't do much damage if they didn't switch. There is also an item in this game that you can make your pokemon hold - the choice band, which multiplies the power of all physical moves (pursuit was considered physical in DP) by 1.5, but restricts them to only using the first move they use when they come out (switching would reset this and let them choose a different move). So now that I've got the background out of the way, I can move on to the example.

In the japan version of the game, if a pokemon with a choice band were to use pursuit on a switching pokemon, they were allowed to switch moves when the new pokemon came in. This glitch was fixed in the english version of the game, and even if they switch against your pursuit, you still can't switch moves while holding a choice band, and switching out, yourself, was the only way to use a different move. During a wifi battle between a japanese game and an english game, the game applied the english version of the move for the battle, for both sides. I would assume that the game would simply use the newest game's patches for the game. If not, it will use the host's version,

 

[Revven]

You know I had a theory...

When you compare the American Demo to the Japanese Demo, you can see glaring obvious differences between the two. Judging simply based off of Gimpyfish's Impressions on the American E4All Demo, versus the Impressions of the WHOBBY and Japan Kiosk Demos, you can see how there is a VERY large difference between the two.

The American version had many of the features that a lot of users on our boards are complaining about being gone (Dash Dance, New L-Cancel, Crouch Cancel, etc...). The Japanese Demo's and Release version has many of these features pulled.

I know that there was a 1-2 month difference between these Demo's, but could it be possible that the NTSC-J and the NTSC-U versions of Brawl would be different to reflect the different playstyles of players? It's a farfetched thought, but maybe... just maybe the two versions might be different?

Probably won't happen though, but it was just a thought haha Still love Brawl anyways.

I love that theory, but, going by Nintendo's track record it would seem nigh impossible for it to happen. I doubt Sakurai/Nintendo would do that, especially, to the Japanese people who are competitive.

But, you can remain hopeful if you want with that theory.

 

[Phelix08]

Pokemon diamond and pearl fixed glitches in the english version from the japan version, which has wifi.

Background info on example: There's a move in that game called "pursuit," which deals double damage against a switching pokemon. Normally, moves just attack whoever is out at the moment, but this one activated before the switch if they were switching (the very first action in a turn, before any other moves could be used), and at the normal time if not, and generally didn't do much damage if they didn't switch. There is also an item in this game that you can make your pokemon hold - the choice band, which multiplies the power of all physical moves (pursuit was considered physical in DP) by 1.5, but restricts them to only using the first move they use when they come out (switching would reset this and let them choose a different move). So now that I've got the background out of the way, I can move on to the example.

In the japan version of the game, if a pokemon with a choice band were to use pursuit on a switching pokemon, they were allowed to switch moves when the new pokemon came in. This glitch was fixed in the english version of the game, and even if they switch against your pursuit, you still can't switch moves while holding a choice band, and switching out, yourself, was the only way to use a different move. During a wifi battle between a japanese game and an english game, the game applied the english version of the move for the battle, for both sides. I would assume that the game would simply use the newest game's patches for the game. If not, it will use the host's version,

I really, really hope we won't have to adapt to two versions of the game, especially if you use a character that gets changed significantly. Of course, this is assuming that they actually do change it.

 

[leafgreen386]

I really, really hope we won't have to adapt to two versions of the game, especially if you use a character that gets changed significantly. Of course, this is assuming that they actually do change it.

How would we have to adapt? It's not even out in the states yet, so at worst our version would be the more updated of the two. But the difference would be like playing melee 1.0 vs melee 1.2. The game is mostly the same, just with small bugs taken out. However, playing against the PAL version could prove to be complicated...

 

[jwj442]

That's very interesting. Should really change the nature of the game.

 

[muesli]

Only read the first post. >.> looking at Marhts F-Smash !! No F-Smash spamming.



muesli

 

[Lord Knight]

By the way, apparently teh_spamerer found a way out of wall jab infinites:

Miscellaneous Notes

- When you jump from the ledge you can immediately do something so it's actually a VERY good option now
- Shields seem to get weaker a lot faster in this game
- How to get out of someone rapid jabbing you against a wall: DI towards them, which will push them back then hold towards the wall once you're out of the way.
- This game is AMAZING. The thought of going back to play melee is very depressing.

 

[Proven]

Still makes you wonder about Fox's infinite shine on Shadow Moses. If you space just right, the shine isn't hitting the wall, but the unlucky character still gets combo'd. If that can be DI'd out of, then we're safe.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Brawl is really turning out to be considerably different then melee when it comes to competitive play. This makes all my practicing with melee in vain.

omg

Someone who actually has a brain in their skull. Hi.

 

[Snakeee]

Wow, this completely changes smash as we know it....
don't know if this was asked already but does this happen with grabs too?

 

[mugwhump]

I think it's worth noting, in case it hasn't been said before, that not all attacks suffer from this. I tried toon link's arrows and damage did not change, regardless what charge. additionally his neutral a did not loose damage. My current hypothesis is moves that are innately charge-type may not be affected, and regular a moves aren't affected either due to being your mainstays and so generic *shrug*

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat Are you sure? Because adult Link's arrows lose damage... and a neutral a not counting sounds crazy. Are you sure you weren't in training mode? I don't have toon Link though so I can't test this.

I thought about this too, and I figured since we are able to fight people around the globe trough the online mode the fighting mechanics should be universal too. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to battle someone in Japan who uses a different game version. The only way they could remove this is if they launch a new patch to fix all the unintended glitches.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that, but that probably would prevent regional changes.

This is quite an interesting thought in all respects. And pounding on Shy Guys is profitable now?


I assume this also means that hitting mutiple people with one attack only counts as one attack towards refreshing your moves? And the same for hitting a person and a stage element like the shadow moses walls at different times (like if you use Lucas's PK Thunder and hit through an enemy and hit a wall a couple seconds later)?

A couple other questions:

-How do Final Smashes figure into this? I'm particularly interested in how Yoshi's Final Smash interacts with it, since those fireballs couldn't really be considered anything but mutliple attacks, I would think.

I'm fairly sure, at least in the E4All demo, that Yoshi's fireballs always did 25% damage. Is that still the case, and do they get any knockback reduction? There is also the question of how his fire breath interacts with it (along with Bowser's and Charizard's.) And would each fireball hit count toward refreshing your moves, would they not count at all, or what?

A bunch of other final smashes might also be interesting to test. I'd imagine the Zero Laser would count as one hit, but what about the Triforce Slash? Diddy's peanuts during his final smash? Would Marth's count as a hit at all? What about Donkey Kong's beats, or the hits from Pikachu's Volt Tackle (the ones that just cause damage, not knockback.)

Oh, and I guess hitting the smash ball would also count as a refresh...

-Do thrown items count, or turnips?

-What about summoned creatures? Things like Waddle Doo's electric attack, centurions from Pit's Final Smash, pokeballs and assist trophies and such.

Good questions Artisan

-Hitting multiple people/objects with a single attack only counts as one hit. If you hit two people with one attack, the second person to be hit will take the same damage as the first person.

-Yoshi's fireballs do not decrease in damage, so it seems they don't count.

-Hitting the smash ball counts

-I know that Link's bombs count. Peach's turnips count--even the ones with different faces. So throwing a stitchface won't recharge your happy face turnips.

-Chikorita's leaves don't decrease in damage, so they don't count...but they might only count for the first hit (like Sheik's needles). I believe I've observed some other pokemon counting, but it's kind of hard to measure.

-Interesting note: Chikorita's leaves can activate the smash ball, as can yoshi's grab hit chew thing

Wow, this completely changes smash as we know it....
don't know if this was asked already but does this happen with grabs too?

Yeah. Each throw counts as a seperate attack, as does your grab hit.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah. Each throw counts as a seperate attack, as does your grab hit.

Does that mean grab hit/s count as one or is each hit treated as 1 individually.

 

[Snakeee]

Wow, that may lead to spamming for chain grabs...and also prevent them!
Zelda/Sheik and PT being able to auto-recharge everything sounds like it could be pretty broken what do you guys think of this?
Also, gg Turnip spam

 

[Magus420]

nvm

 

[mugwhump]

Does that mean grab hit/s count as one or is each hit treated as 1 individually.

Each grab hit counts as 1, so yes, they're a good way to recharge your other moves.

Wow, that may lead to spamming for chain grabs...and also prevent them!
Zelda/Sheik and PT being able to auto-recharge everything sounds like it could be pretty broken what do you guys think of this?
Also, gg Turnip spam

It's certainly an advantage for them, but since transformation times are so long, maybe it'll get Sheik players to spend some time as Zelda.

 

[Zodiac]

How is my gender relevant to this discussion, or any discussion, enough to have the question "begged" for?

/Joke .....

 

[leafgreen386]

It's certainly an advantage for them, but since transformation times are so long, maybe it'll get Sheik players to spend some time as Zelda.

Who is seriously still going to play sheik now? Her kill moves suck, and all she can do anymore is combo...

If anything, it'd be forcing the now-improved zelda to spend some time as sheik....

Anyway, I'm liking that you can pretty much fully restore yourself by repeatedly using the grab attack on a high percent foe and throw, which will also help the throw go farther, and possibly even kill, while you've got restored moves when they come back. Or did I miss something and this doesn't work?

 

[Dogenzaka]

Very interesting.

But holy **** do you competitive players have nothing better to do or what?

 

[blayde_axel]

Very interesting.

But holy **** do you competitive players have nothing better to do or what?

lol. Funny. I was thinking the same thing. But whatever.

 

[Ripped]

Still makes you wonder about Fox's infinite shine on Shadow Moses. If you space just right, the shine isn't hitting the wall, but the unlucky character still gets combo'd. If that can be DI'd out of, then we're safe.

if you want to be any good at this game, you got to know the mechanics of the game, its what seperates a great player from a noob.

 

[Rubydragon]

Well, I'll need to practice with this now.

 

[mugwhump]

New observation: I think only one or two hits of Link's Final Smash count.

Also, all of fox's lazers count wtf fox you cheap h4x

Who is seriously still going to play sheik now? Her kill moves suck, and all she can do anymore is combo...

If anything, it'd be forcing the now-improved zelda to spend some time as sheik....

Anyway, I'm liking that you can pretty much fully restore yourself by repeatedly using the grab attack on a high percent foe and throw, which will also help the throw go farther, and possibly even kill, while you've got restored moves when they come back. Or did I miss something and this doesn't work?

It works

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

LOL FOX'S LASERS COUNT!!!

That is nasty. Hey Mugwhump, can you check this out on Ness's PK fire, and also all the hits from Lucas's PK Thunder?