***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[Proven]

Who is seriously still going to play sheik now? Her kill moves suck, and all she can do anymore is combo...

If anything, it'd be forcing the now-improved zelda to spend some time as sheik....

Anyway, I'm liking that you can pretty much fully restore yourself by repeatedly using the grab attack on a high percent foe and throw, which will also help the throw go farther, and possibly even kill, while you've got restored moves when they come back. Or did I miss something and this doesn't work?

Sheik, like almost all of the other Veterans, especially Samus, has been changed. Her old kill moves are no longer kill moves, but now other moves in her arsenal have been changed to be so. And she's better balanced per her weight, speed, and power class. She is still awesome, but will take more relearning than some of the other Veterans (like say, Marth).

 

[Runeblade279]

This is most interesting, especially the grab hit discovery, as well Fox's lasers. Fox probably won't have too much trouble with getting his knockback back up to snuff, others will have to rely on grab hits and plain old variety (something I look forward to.)

This promotes mix-ups and mind games with your moves, and also adds the idea of spamming a move to make it a combo lead-in.

Very much looking forward to the many play styles and tactics this will promote. =D

 

[Dagingabreadman]

hmmm... could chain grabbing become possible?

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

This makes the only type of suitable practice to be mindgames. Plain and simple. And even that will need to change a suitable amount.

Finding this out is huge. Plain huge. It's going to revolutionize Smash gameplay and competition as we know it. In fact, certain stages might become good counter picks just for having hitable environment to recharge/deminish your moves! (whichever you want to do at the moment) Such as sending someone flying a far bit on Shadow Moses Island, then jabbing at the wall while they return to have your kill move back up to par.

 

[mugwhump]

LOL FOX'S LASERS COUNT!!!

That is nasty. Hey Mugwhump, can you check this out on Ness's PK fire, and also all the hits from Lucas's PK Thunder?

Nope, both only count once.

 

[tw1n]

This makes the only type of suitable practice to be mindgames. Plain and simple. And even that will need to change a suitable amount.

Finding this out is huge. Plain huge. It's going to revolutionize Smash gameplay and competition as we know it. In fact, certain stages might become good counter picks just for having hitable environment to recharge/deminish your moves! (whichever you want to do at the moment) Such as sending someone flying a far bit on Shadow Moses Island, then jabbing at the wall while they return to have your kill move back up to par.

Agreed completely. Now players will have to look more in depth for every stage and character they choose. but I'm willing to bet that for a while most people are still just going to do the same stuff until they get used to this concept and the game play before they can really start strategizing. One way or another its going to be alot of fun

 

[Cia]

wow, I'm just now stumbling upon this thread. good stuff ryoko. I haven't played brawl much but it's really good to have that info.

also, I asked in the spoc4 thread, but you haven't seen it yet. I was asking if you wanted to team w/ me for that??

 

[x4FoSho4x]

Nice find. Very interesting indeed.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

This sucks at such a high level... they most likely did this to effect serious players like how they put in tripping to stop us from dash dancing...

 

[SeriousWB]

@dark Illusion hokage: ... What?

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeah I didn't catch that either. I actually think this was an amazing move toward a more competitive game, as it requires players to be smarter with what they use and when. It opens up all kinds of possibilities in this game.

 

[Droly]

how is Olimar affected?

 

[Proven]

Note on the Olimar comment, he will be kinda hard to test. His damage and knockback on pikmin attacks are decided on two different variables:

1.) Pikmin color. 5 types.

2.) Pikmin maturity. 3 types (i.e. leaf, bud, flower).

Number 2 is the one that hasn't been completely proven to do more damage, but most believe it does. It takes about 20 seconds between maturity levels. Good luck testing this.

 

[mugwhump]

how is Olimar affected?

It doesn't matter which pikmin you use, a yellow bud pikmin forward smash will still weaken a purple flower pikmin forward smash.

 

[PwnyRide]

This sucks at such a high level... they most likely did this to effect serious players like how they put in tripping to stop us from dash dancing...

You did read the first page yeah?

 

[Zenjamin]

projectiles doesnt help to recharge attacks, right?
at least DDD's doesnt.
you should add that to the 1st page


but we belive actually hitting the waddle Dees does help.



EDIT:
so foxes lazers do recharge his moves? but my friend tested it and said that DDDs waddle Dees dont recharge your moves.

is fox just OP in that respect, is DDD gimped in this respect, or is she just wrong about projectiles not recharging your moves?

 

[Vadorojo]

Wow ... great find. It'll be very interesting to see how competitive players use this strategy.

Man ... just thinking of Melee makes this info all the more important. I don't know how many times I spam FAir'd people to death with G&W in Melee ... same goes for Bowser, lol. This element alone will change good gameplay SO, SO much.

 

[WAAASSSUUUPP]

In my opinion, this can greatly benefit certain characters. Due to the game's floatyness, many characters who were previously combo characters utilizing a certain move can now combo. Captain Falcon and Marth for example can now combo uairs/nairs, and fairs/uairs respectively.

If it weren't for this, characters would be knocked back too far in order for another hit to connect, but since knockback is reduced, it is quite possible that a Marth could connect multiple fairs and end with a dair, ala the Ken Combo. And who can forget Captain Falcon's uair uair KNEE! Just felt like making this post because I was talking to my friend about some positive points of this game aspect.

 

[higgins]

i just noticed in the videos lots of poeple use zelda for a main who else does??

 

[mugwhump]

projectiles doesnt help to recharge attacks, right?
at least DDD's doesnt.
you should add that to the 1st page


but we belive actually hitting the waddle Dees does help.



EDIT:
so foxes lazers do recharge his moves? but my friend tested it and said that DDDs waddle Dees dont recharge your moves.

is fox just OP in that respect, is DDD gimped in this respect, or is she just wrong about projectiles not recharging your moves?

Most projectiles do count. And DDD's Waddlesomethings count as well, they'll get weaker and recharge other attacks when thrown at opponents. The electrical attack they do doesn't seem to count though, and does a fixed 27% every time without weakening. And yes, DDD or his opponent can hit the waddlethingies to recharge attacks.

 

[Crispy4001]

It doesn't matter which pikmin you use, a yellow bud pikmin forward smash will still weaken a purple flower pikmin forward smash.

What about throwing the Pikmin?

 

[Zenjamin]

Most projectiles do count. And DDD's Waddlesomethings count as well, they'll get weaker and recharge other attacks when thrown at opponents. The electrical attack they do doesn't seem to count though, and does a fixed 27% every time without weakening. And yes, DDD or his opponent can hit the waddlethingies to recharge attacks.

Thanks.
also, does just throwing the Dees recharge his other attacks, or do they have to hit a person?
and if just throwing them doesnt do anything, what about hitting your own waddle Dees with other waddle Dees?

 

[Goldkirby]

One important question that I did not see the answer for is: Does the reduced damage and knockback also mean the hitstun on the move is reduced? If the hitstun isn't reduced, then I can think of good ways of prorating your attacks on purpose.

Also, a lot of you people are thinking that this new mechanic is going to force people to use every single move in the arsenal, but why aren't any of you pondering the possibility of the opposite happening. What if it would actually be beneficial to spam the same weak attacks over and over again to build damage and increase the comboability? For example, lets take Marth, why not just spam f-air over and over, and since each attack is prorated, then it would lengthen the time you could keep someone in a combo as long as the hit stun stays the same for the attack. Then after you build enough damage, just use a finisher.

I know as soon as I get brawl, I'm going to be testing this theory out, finding some spamable weaker aerials and tilts to build combos and damage, then chain into finishing moves.

 

[mugwhump]

Thanks.
also, does just throwing the Dees recharge his other attacks, or do they have to hit a person?
and if just throwing them doesnt do anything, what about hitting your own waddle Dees with other waddle Dees?

Na, the Dees have to hit someone. Attacks only recharge when they connect.
And I don't think his waddle dees can hit other waddle dees... DDD can beat them up himself, though.

 

[Rakath]

Interesting... I got a move that needs testing on this, the same way Ike's AAA was tested: Marth's Dancing Blade.

Since, from playing Melee, the move counted each act in the combo as the same (Stale moves 'bonus' got me if I used a full combo more than 3 times), I wanna know if the Stale Move diminish factor counts each attack as its own move or as a separate move. And if the option moves at each level are effected by the other options (if you stale 2-Forward 3-Forward 4-Forward will 2-Up 3-Down 4-Up be staled as well).

Does repeated use of Chain 1 of Dancing make Chain 2-4 stale, do each moves count separately, etc. I'd appriciate it.

 

[drengist]

...

This is actually what I've been thinking too. For example, Samus might be able to spam his down-tilt endlessly. Also, juggling may become significantly easier.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

This is actually what I've been thinking too. For example, Samus might be able to spam his down-tilt endlessly. Also, juggling may become significantly easier.

lol, wut?

Anyway, I suppose that heavy power characters finally have their place in Brawl!

 

[mugwhump]

This is actually what I've been thinking too. For example, Samus might be able to spam his down-tilt endlessly. Also, juggling may become significantly easier.

.......

For example, Samus might be able to spam his down-tilt endlessly.

Samus might be able to spam his down-tilt

spam his down-tilt

his

 

[Kujirudo]

I do believe your findings since I've no way to test this out and I take it that you guys take this serious, but what about this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpGahx7Ev1s.
Look at 7:32. The guy uses Ike's Fsmash 3 times in a row. The first and second strike both give 20% damage, the thirth one gives 22%! That's an increasing number. Your theory suggests that Ike would deal less damage after he hits for the first time right? Then how come that his 1th and 2th strike are both equally strong and his thirth one even increases in strength?

 

[Libomasus]

Damage scaling doesn't apply to training mode, and some attacks have random damage already so thats why the third strike was slightly stronger.

 

[SonicSmash001]

Sakurai has seriously done it. This guys a genius... He made a game that beginners can get into, but is impossibly deep once you do. Wow... I thought it would be shallow cus of what people said, but I guess you can't judge a book by its cover.. Now that we've gotten into brawl a bit more, I can see how kickass its gonna be. Can't wait!

 

[Glinth]

Good to know, it seems Tilts diminish in damage much less then smash attacks :/

 

[drengist]

Ok, ok. My bad. There aren't any pronouns based on gender in Finnish, so the slip was understandable.

 

[Speedsk8er]

awesome discovery. So I see that the stamina stat doesn't JUST apply to PT.

 

[Rakath]

awesome discovery. So I see that the stamina stat doesn't JUST apply to PT.

Well, Stamina and Move Stale are different.

Stamina doesn't actually have to do with the moves specifically, but all actions the Pokemon takes are slower after the Stamina is gone. Its unknown if the Pokemon's moves get weaker being at 0 Stamina, but they are slower.

Stale moves will still get a Pokemon WAY before the Stamina hits low marks... but there needs to be testing to see if making one of Squirtle's moves stale weakens Ivysaur's move of the same combination (Does Withdrawl make Razor Leaf go stale, etc).

 

[Keitaro]

Wow, nasty information find by Ryoko

I think your first paragraph greatly relates to a certain Brawl fri...rival I play with currently

 

[Zenjamin]

Na, the Dees have to hit someone. Attacks only recharge when they connect.
And I don't think his waddle dees can hit other waddle dees... DDD can beat them up himself, though.

are you sure? did you test this?
because waddle dees actually to take damage like any wall, you can only hit them so much.

so it seems to me that if you can recharge your attacks by hitting waddle dees, and you can recharge your attacks by throwing waddle Dees at people/destructable walls, why not hitting your own waddle dees with other waddle dees?

 

[tw1n]

Hmm... A paradox. Alot more testing must be done now. Oh and Keitaro. Your signature is freakin awesome

 

[Lunaretic]

I do believe your findings since I've no way to test this out and I take it that you guys take this serious, but what about this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpGahx7Ev1s.
Look at 7:32. The guy uses Ike's Fsmash 3 times in a row. The first and second strike both give 20% damage, the thirth one gives 22%! That's an increasing number. Your theory suggests that Ike would deal less damage after he hits for the first time right? Then how come that his 1th and 2th strike are both equally strong and his thirth one even increases in strength?

That seems to be in training mode, note the previous information from mug that this -does not affect- training mode.

 

[Nintendude]

A few questions:

1. Whiffed attacks still don't contribute to move decay, right?
2. Is move decay reset after a death, like it was in SSB64 and Melee?
3. This might be hard to tell right now, but does move decay also decrease hitbox lag?

Sorry if they've been answered before. I don't feel like reading like 27 pages.