***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[S2]

Ryoko, you ought to add a FAQ section to the start of the post, I'm seeing a lot of the same questions come up over and over.

 

[tw1n]

ha ha awesome signature S2.

just a thought tho. If the amount of knock back is reduced greatly, that would also cause for a huge chance of a counter from the opponent. I know alot of people are saying combo potentials but I don't think many people are realizing that it also has many downsides too (aside from the already weakened attack).

 

[ChewyChase]

I don't know if this has been asked already but...

Do the moves recharge when you throw someone and are throws affected? Are all the directional throws and the grab attack (where you grab someone and hit A to attack lightly) separate? If it is possible to chain throw, this could seriously either kill chain throwing OR make it effective.

Someone test that out please.

EDIT: I read that the attacks are counted as separate, it was in the thread already.

 

[themitey1]

just a thought tho. If the amount of knock back is reduced greatly, that would also cause for a huge chance of a counter from the opponent. I know alot of people are saying combo potentials but I don't think many people are realizing that it also has many downsides too (aside from the already weakened attack).

Ooo, that's a good point. Someone needs to make a video to show the decreasing in knockback, and the recovery times of the opponent.

 

[RizardoLawless]

Good discovery. It adds alot to the game

 

[mugwhump]

are you sure? did you test this?
because waddle dees actually to take damage like any wall, you can only hit them so much.

so it seems to me that if you can recharge your attacks by hitting waddle dees, and you can recharge your attacks by throwing waddle Dees at people/destructable walls, why not hitting your own waddle dees with other waddle dees?

Oh ho, it seems I was wrong before. Waddle Dees CAN hit other waddle dees (unlike Peach's turnips) if you throw them right. And they DO recharge attacks.

I don't know if this has been asked already but...

Do the moves recharge when you throw someone and are throws affected? Are all the directional throws and the grab attack (where you grab someone and hit A to attack lightly) separate? If it is possible to chain throw, this could seriously either kill chain throwing OR make it effective.

Someone test that out please.

EDIT: I read that the attacks are counted as separate, it was in the thread already.

Each of the four throws count as seperate.

A few questions:

1. Whiffed attacks still don't contribute to move decay, right?
2. Is move decay reset after a death, like it was in SSB64 and Melee?
3. This might be hard to tell right now, but does move decay also decrease hitbox lag?

Sorry if they've been answered before. I don't feel like reading like 27 pages.

1. Right.
2. Yes.
3. ...........??

 

[Johnknight1]

Woaw, THIS IS AMAZING! Brawl's meta-game...is one in it's own ALREADY, and it's only been about ONE WEEK! Overpowered attacks are balanced, and weak attacks are stronger. You are required to finally MASTER ALL OF A CHARACTER, and not just a few, some, or even most of their moves. This completely makes the Brawl meta-game a stand alone one, and this is DEFINITELY the most intresting development in the future Brawl general meta-games for each character. Smash is more of an art then it ever was before in Brawl JUST BECAUSE OF THIS!

Not just is this the ULTIMATE BALANCING MECHANIC, but this FURTHER SEPERATES Brawl from smash 64 and Melee. It's almost like a new game in a new series at this point. If this is sucessful, and has a lasting balancing meta-game effect, then Brawl will play completely diffrent then anyone of us would though. Certainly diffrent then Melee and smash 64.

This is sorta like the "stamina" with the PT, but it only weakens you offensively through damage, and impact (in other words, all types of damage [offense], except maybe spiking). Speaking of which, does this impact spike attack impact that much, if at all=??? (that'd be another intresting case) It seems we can TRUELY bend the pyshics like a rubber band again. Imagine all the balancing that will work out with this will truely be fantastic. Even as a Fox Melee-main, I know how much better balancing could make competitive, casual, and everything inbetween play a lot better (I also play Link, Roy, and Ness, after all! ).

My only question (again) is does this impact spike attacks (when spiking) at all=??? It's not that big in the general term, but if it doesn't, spiking will be more of a focus then it currently seems. Definitely the best development with balancing and revolutionary gameplay we've seen SO FAR!

 

[Vadorojo]

Since this thread has gotten so long, I don't know if this video has been posted yet as evidence, but it's definitely a good one.

It actually comes from WifiWars demonstration of Moonwalking. Since they continually use Ike's BAir, you can clearly see the damage reduction and despite using Ike and one of his more powerful moves, the knockback fails to kill Snake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKNKH7EpuLE&NR=1

 

[FenrirIII]

My only question (again) is does this impact spike attacks (when spiking) at all=??? It's not that big in the general term, but if it doesn't, spiking will be more of a focus then it currently seems. Definitely the best development with balancing and revolutionary gameplay we've seen SO FAR!

This here is the true question.
If this move decay also reduces the effectiveness of spikes, that opens up a series of quick in-game thoughts too. Do you abuse your spike to rack up damage (since most actual Meteor Smashes are pretty strong - Mario's F-Air for example) and combo, or do you save it for that one-shot KO? If your character has multiple spikes, which one is better to decay?

Man. This basic mechanic actually does open up a lot of possibilities. People need to stop experimenting with flashy little 'advanced' techs and get to work on the depth of this very basic one. So many questions are waiting to be asked and answered.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

what I want to know is how long the "decay" effect lasts, that's what really matters. Can I spam Zelda's fair, use another move to reset the knockback, then KO with it, or what? If it takes a good number of moves to reset the decay effect, then this will have influence, but if not, eh.

 

[Mama]

And there ladies and gentlemen is some of that depth the idiots have been whining about.

Seriously though thats incredible and quite realistic. Samurai Panda said what I was going to say already though. Knowingly reducing your attacks knock back so that you can combo with it but who knows what the future will hold.

It also seems pretty realistic too. If you were in a fight and you kept using low kicks your legs would get tired so you'd need to switch it up. Thats pretty cool. Almost glad I have to wait a month to play the game, this way there will be a lot of things I can go into the game knowing and start practicing right off the bat.

 

[Johnknight1]

This here is the true question.
If this move decay also reduces the effectiveness of spikes, that opens up a series of quick in-game thoughts too. Do you abuse your spike to rack up damage (since most actual Meteor Smashes are pretty strong - Mario's F-Air for example) and combo, or do you save it for that one-shot KO? If your character has multiple spikes, which one is better to decay?

Man. This basic mechanic actually does open up a lot of possibilities. People need to stop experimenting with flashy little 'advanced' techs and get to work on the depth of this very basic one. So many questions are waiting to be asked and answered.

Seriously, QFT. You could NOT DO YOUR SPIKE to rack up damage, or do a spike. You could abuse it for combos. SOOOOO MANY POSSIBLITIES! This can be pretty mind bogoling. This is another unique "strategy" in this GIGANTIC STRATEGY! Woaw, this just shows how HUGE one small detail can be. It can change the way the game is played inside out COMPLETELY! This could be the biggest thing since L-cancelling, even! o_O

 

[trademark0013]

i jus noticed his post while spamming- er, reading the brawl thread for once and i noticed this

ryoko continues to be a driving force in the smash community

gj

 

[MechanisMs]

what I want to know is how long the "decay" effect lasts, that's what really matters. Can I spam Zelda's fair, use another move to reset the knockback, then KO with it, or what? If it takes a good number of moves to reset the decay effect, then this will have influence, but if not, eh.

read the first post a bit more thoroughly, and get to the part where mugwhump posts his testing:

but here anyway :\

-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.

-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.

The decay effect lasts as long as you don't switch up your moves, or until you die and respawn (all your stale moves are refreshed)

It might take more than one attack to get your KO move back to a decent KO level, which is why it is probably more reasonable to switch up your KOing move once it's become stale, unless you switch up your used moves entirely.

As for the last question, it will take more than 1 move variation to reverse the decay of a move that has been used.
example from mugwhump:

-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.

the influence seems to be enough to seriously consider a change of approach when deciding to go for the kill at 100% with a 2move stale KOing move or attempt comboing for 6-7 different moves to refresh and guarantee fresh knockback

 

[Dan-E]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8


lol?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8


lol?

No.

The knockback reduction in Brawl is quite a bit more dramatic.

 

[Senshuu]

I'm glad for this, because I tend to abuse smashes. Maybe now I'll develop some skill!

 

[Dan-E]

No.

The knockback reduction in Brawl is quite a bit more dramatic.

The OP states otherwise.

 

[Grandeza]

This is nice because my friends spam attacks over and over.

 

[Proven]

The OP states otherwise.

And the later response in that thread (I believe on the first page) states otherwise to that otherwise.

 

[Dan-E]

just read the OP and thought to myself. "well that's completely wrong" and sought to correct it since everyone was believing it..

 

[SamuraiPanda]

*sigh* That video actually doesn't prove much. In Melee, knockback is calculated AFTER damage is totaled, so the "stale" move is just the damage decrease and the knockback decrease that came with it. Had he done the stale Fsmash to end in the same percent as the normal Fsmash, it would be the same knockback. In Brawl, the knockback is calculated for each attack is apparently partially separate from the damage percent (although obviously intrinsically related).

 

[SeriousWB]

just read the OP and thought to myself. "well that's completely wrong" and sought to correct it since everyone was believing it..

Should've read more of the thread then, as you would have seen the same argument pop up and get debunked. Heck even the youtube comments on the video you linked to disproved that argument..

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

We should be looking for the effect on weak combo moves.

Ness' PK Fire, for example. If you use it repeatedly, does it bocome harder or easier to escape?

 

[MK-Ultra]

Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[heety9]

This.....really.........S U C K S...


...

 

[Blu-ninja]

This.....really.........S U C K S...


...

hm?

why so?

 

[Cyrlous]

Yeah, I do find it rather funny how people are trying to break the physics before they even know what the physics are. Seriously, learn to play the darn game first. There's gonna be LOTS of time to learn all about advanced techs later on.

 

[trademark0013]

^^^ ryokos not breaking anything. hes jus point something out about the game that seems pretty useful to kno

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

^^^ ryokos not breaking anything. hes jus point something out about the game that seems pretty useful to kno

Exactly. He's not breaking the physics, he found out an interesting and important attribute of it that probably leads to greater depth and better gameplay.

 

[Mama]

Yeah, I do find it rather funny how people are trying to break the physics before they even know what the physics are. Seriously, learn to play the darn game first. There's gonna be LOTS of time to learn all about advanced techs later on.

I hope you're not referring to the thread topic...How is this an advance tech or breaking physics? This understanding the game mechanics. The scrub mentality will reject any intelligent approach to the game as blasphemy apparently.

If you're referring to anything else then disregard my post and quote next time lol.

 

[Phyvo]

*sigh* That video actually doesn't prove much. In Melee, knockback is calculated AFTER damage is totaled, so the "stale" move is just the damage decrease and the knockback decrease that came with it. Had he done the stale Fsmash to end in the same percent as the normal Fsmash, it would be the same knockback. In Brawl, the knockback is calculated for each attack is apparently partially separate from the damage percent (although obviously intrinsically related).

Err, no.

Melee does not decrease the knockback effect, correct?

So when you say knockback is calculated AFTER damage is total, we're talking about going from 90% to 95% total for a weakened smash, versus a strengthened smash which would take it to 105% possibly.

Thus, the total damage is calculated at 95% for one smash and 105% for another, but both knockbacks are GREATER than the 90% no matter how weak the move is. You KNOW that when the opponent reaches, say, 120% on Mewtwo's u-throw they'll die no matter how they DI and no matter how much you've spammed the move to get to 120%. You could actually KO someone by ONLY using u-throw up to 120%, or you could KO someone by using other moves up to 120%.

In Brawl this is simply not the case. I can't tell you how many matches I've seen where someone's been hit with a KO move 5 times in a row and it doesn't kill them, and when the spammer died and respawned the move just went BAM and KOed the opponent as if it had been supercharged. If this were like Melee then that would be impossible without someone messing up their DI majorly every time their opponent respawned, which would be quite a coincidence. But these were pro smashers, if any skill transferred from Melee it was the ability to DI!

You should probably read this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ74srVgGRU - watch from 2:38 to the end as Zelda abuses her Fsmash on Bowser. And remember, once Bowser reaches the 130 damage threshold, a "fresh" Fsmash from Zelda will auto-ko Bowser here. But Bowser gets sent to 177% from Fsmash near the end, and survives! Easily! That Fsmash did 10 damage with all hits connecting. Zelda's Fsmash normally deals 17-18.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

SP was already explaining why phanna's "Stale Moves in Melee" video was flawed and proved absolutely nothing. He's fully aware of how this mechanic works in both Melee and Brawl.

 

[Phyvo]

Oh... k.

Way for me to read the whole thread, huh?

 

[DarkDragoon]

=P Good find Ryoko. I thought something was off when I was making my little Lucario Guide and video footage had the same move doing different damage and knockback all over the video.

I know doing 10 Jabs or whatnot "replenishes" the stale move, but what about 10 hits with the "Fury" moves, like MetaKnight's or Fox's A when held(Rapid Attack? I dunno what its called @_@)?

Also, this adds a new dimension to Doubles Matches, because (assuming Friendly Fire is still on) you can just do 10 quick jabs on your partner (who is playing a heavy character) to get power back to your KO/spam moves.

Of course... for that to work, the other team needs to be kept busy by some invisible force.
<.<...
-DD

 

[wakka444]

I was watching a video were DK did a back throw on battlefield and killed falco(i think it was) and falco was at roughly 100-120%. So my question is whether or not throws deal with the same or similar diminishing effects as normal hits do, but my guess is no from what ive seen with dededes chaingrab, but i dont have the game. Thanks in advance.

 

[Dan-E]

Should've read more of the thread then, as you would have seen the same argument pop up and get debunked. Heck even the youtube comments on the video you linked to disproved that argument..

meh... my bad. still the OP is slightly misleading.

 

[Voltaos]

The idea of diminishing returns in the game is extremely interesting. Not only does this force hardcore, but it also forces casual players to adapt more with the characters they choose to play. This could also make the meta game way more complex. Instead of thinking of specific combos off of one attack, like melee (A specific example is shuffling with Fox;s N-air) you need to either figure out a way to replenish your attacks quickly, or combo into KO moves and save those moves for specific moments.

There's alot of advantages that certain characters would be given with these diminishing returns. Theoretically, any character with a ranged attack could just spam it to replenish their attack, but that wouldn't work too well in end game play because any intelligent player would be able to figure out what they were doing and dodge those attacks. If someone like Falco for example were to spam his laser to replenish his attacks, all that would need to be done to stop him is to simply dodge until you can counter Falco when he is lagging from using his laser.

The only character that I can say so far that would be able to replenish his attacks successfully in a quick manner is Fox, just because of the over whelming speed of his laser. Attempting the same method with any other character could be risky and take unecessary time which could potentially leave you open for attack.

What I gather most from this is that in order to be a successful player in the long run is to manipulate ALL of the attacks of your character an inplement them into your play style. Relying on a sweet spotted attack or a smash may not be good enough anymore, especially since most of the games that I've been watching lately have been lasting until 150%+.

However, I can definately see logic in what Samurai Panda is saying. This does leave open a huge amount of room for comboing. It may be completely worth it infact to spam one attack in order to juggle your opponent to death and than place one solid smash attack.

I'd be interested to know if there is a minimum that you diminish to. Is there a point in which you no longer move at all, or become immune to that attack?

 

[xmenotux]

hahaha....so looks like Sakurai officially confirmed the whole diminishing returns thing in the most recent smashdojo update along with listing all? the advanced techniques in the game.

 

[MajinNecro69]

Does Ukemi imply...L-Cancelling?!?!?!?