If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[Stevo]

(LOL i can already tell this first post is gonna get messy....)

Pichu (tentative)

-increase damage on all attacks that have recoil.
-Increase run speed to a little slower than fox
-Increase his weight to about a .60 from.55
-Increase hitbox size of forward smash
-Increase the speed at which Forward-b charges up
-Modify his tech roll somehow to make it a little less bad



Old Down-b
4 hits @ 4 damage each = 15 damage (Stale moves)
strong hit near Pichu @ 11 damage
Pichu takes 3 damage

New Down-b
3 hits @ 4 damage each + 1 hit @ 8 damage (+increase in knockback) = 19-20 dmg
strong hit near Pichu @ 15 damage
Pichu takes 2 recoil damage

Old Forward Air
4 hits @ 2 damage each = 7 damage (Stale moves)
Pichu takes 4 hits @ 1 damage each = 4 recoil

New Forward Air
4 hits @ 4 damage each = 14-15 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 4 hits @ 1 damage each = 4 recoil

Old B move
In Air
1 hit @ 10 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Grounded
1 hit @ 7 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New B move
In air
1 hit @ 12 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Grounded
1 hit @ 10 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward Smash
5 hits @ 2 damage each + 1 hit @ 5 damage = 14 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 2 recoil damage

New Forward Smash
5 hits @ 9 damage total + 1hit @ 6 damage = 15 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Increase hit boxes slightly

Old Up-b
1st part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
2nd part
Pichu takes 3 recoil damage

New up-b
1st part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
2nd part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward-b
1 hit @ 7 damage (uncharged)
1 hit @ 39 damage(fully charged)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Forward-b
1 hit @ 10 damage (uncharged)
1 hit @ 42 damage(fully charged)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Charges up quicker

Old Down Air
1 hit @ 12 damage
1 hit @ 4 damage (landing animation) (ends up being 3 damage if you hit with 1st hit)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Down Air
1 hit @ 15 damage
1 hit @ 5 damage (landing animation)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Grab attack
1 hit @ 3 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Grab attack
1 hit @ 5 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward throw
5 hits @ 2 damage each = 9 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New forward throw
4 hits @ 2 damage each + 1 hit at 5 damage = about 12 with stale moves
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
















Original post

THIS IS NOT A MELEE+ TOPIC, IF YOU WISH TO START A MELEE PLUS TOPIC THEN BY ALL MEANS DO SO, THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF WHETHER OR NOT MELEE SHOULD BE EDITED AT ALL (GAMEPLAY WISE). I INCLUDED A LIST OF CHANGES SIMPLY TO SHOW SOME EXAMPLES OF THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE.







Would anyone want to balance some of the lower tier'd characters?

I've been thinking about it lately, and I am still unsure how I feel about it. On the one side, I would hate to see a game I love that is perfect in its own special way become deformed. On the other side, it would be cool to see some more characters be playable in tournaments.

One of the biggest issues would be deciding who would have the final call on what would be changed. I, for one, would be for deciding on one set of changes, and then, if nothing comes up that shows complete imbalance, leaving things the way they are.

Another issue would be that it could potentially divide the community (one that I am very proud to be a part of). Brawl has at least 3 big different versions, and many others being made.

I don't think melee should be changed to an extent where say Ness for example was top dog. That being said I don't think there is anything wrong with modifying a few things with some of the characters that don't have as much potential in a competitive environment, and also modifications to things that were overlooked, or just impossible to foresee.


here is a list of things that I thought would be potential changes for a more balanced melee, keeping in mind that I don't want to change the tiers drastically, or nerf anyone/anything at all, simply buff to some of the other characters. Also, that these are just IDEAS, by no means perfect.


NO CHANGES

Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach, Falcon, Jiggs, Ganon, Samus, IC (sorta, see below)



SMALL CHANGES

Doc
Less lag time after down-b

Mario
Less lag time after down-b and last hit spikes.

Luigi
Make his down-b easier to maximize the recovery distance, and add some height to it.

DK
less lag after forward-b (also could increase the shield damage on forward-b)
Increase sheild size a bit? maybe?(lol seriously, if you've played DK, you know why)

Link
Speed up Arrow
a slight increase in weight


Pikachu
make the semi spike of up-air easier to hit and remove the strange hitbox that sends backwards? change it into the semi spike forwards(maybe not, would need imput from pika players)

YL
Speed up Arrow
make the spike on d-air easier to hit with


LARGE CHANGES

Roy
make counter come out quicker and remove the gravity delay when using counter in the air (annoying when the move you were going to counter misses you because using it in the air delays you a bit)
Make d-air spike hitbox easier to hit

Zelda
Increase forward-b speed and make it not make you helpless after
give her a regular grab speed
make her d-air a spike rather than metoer (still won't kill lol)

G&W
Increase Strength of Smashes
improve up-air and back-air and maybe allow l-cancel of up-air and back-air? (maybe not, was this left out for a reason?)
Increase the speed of his Bucket (it is soo useless with how slow it is right now)
Improve his roll?


Ness
Allow jump cancel of down-b or make it quicker
speed up PK thunder or increase the distance that Ness travels after hitting himself
Increase Grab range slightly? (itty bitty arms)

Yoshi
Increase weight
Increase Forward smash knockback (like PAL version)
make his forward-b hop more distance in the air and able to grab ledge after exiting egg roll

Bowser
Increase weight
Increase knockback of many attacks (especially the ones that are hard to hit with)
FLame cancelling ALWAYS possible
suggestions?


Mewtwo
make forward-b actually reflect projectiles and slightly quicker
Increase forward smash knockback
suggestions?

Kirby
increase aerial control (not like jiggly but a little bit)
make neutral air suck less?
Increase knockback of smashes slightly (especially f-smash)
Increase Kirby's speed a lot when using run attack (kinda like how sheik speeds up, but less)
let him combo from one of his throws (back throw pop straight up maybe?)

Pichu
make final hit box of down-b stronger
(or just increase the damage of the move overall)
Increase damage on forward air (right now it does almost as much to yourself)
Increase damage or knockback on down air
increase knockback on f-smash
increase runspeed slightly



Glitch and abuse removal

Yo-Yo glitch removed? Maybe?
(to make up for this, yo-yo smashes could be changed to be useful)

WObbling
the problem with wobbling, is iceclimbers have many cool grab combos, and its sad to see them be inferior to another technique that just requires 1 grab to win with (with proper timing, although it is hard to get the timing perfectly)
to remove this you would just have to increase the strength of ice climber tilts, so they knock out of grab.
to make up for this, Ice climbers could maybe get a small buff of some sort.



Global changes

one global change could be increasing the difficulty to break out of yoshi's egg lay, DK's ground pound, jiggly's sing etc. as it seems to easy to get out of those moves. This would mostly buff bad characters and jiggly.... but her sing would still be practically useless anyways, since it is so slow.




before you flame me about how melee is perfect the way it is, consider how little these changes would affect the game. I feel that these ideas should be criticized however, and people should drop their own ideas.

Also consider that I am not even sure I would want Melee changed at all, I just wished to start a discussion about it.

If we leave this discussion to after these changes are possible, it will be a ****storm of people thinking they know what is right for the game.

Maybe it will never happen, but for now I will just play melee as it is and wait.

 

[EPsilon933]

For tournament play, I don't think hacking characters is necessary. It would still be great for friendlies.

 

[lordvaati]

Bowser

-longer wavedash

-less lag in Uair and Bair

-wider hitbox for Dsmash

-higher jump and Up B

-faster falling speed

Kirby

-for the love of god, axe the horrible lag in his Dair and Uair, and give Uair larger hitbox

-less hitstun from attacks

-make hammer worth a **** easier to sweetspot

I'll think of more later.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

No, **** the low tiers!

 

[CRASHiC]

A system change I would make.
Fast fall at any point in a jump
all fast fall speeds the same.

Result, now, all characters have equal access to L canceling, and the frame trap, mind game, and spacing abilities are increased for all characters. Of course, you'd have to test that **** to make sure it doesn't break balance, as in cause crazy combos.

 

[Vulcan55]

A system change I would make.
Fast fall at any point in a jump

That would be horribly broken.
Any one character could super-duper short hop aerial over and over on someones shield (Or not). Now Fox can do it well enough, we don't need everyone doing it even better.

 

[LoganW]

Crashic you're always talking about l-cancelling
That definitely wouldn't be fair at all. Shield pressure ftl

 

[metaXzero]

Like with the Brawl competitive mods, as long as it's not trying to be the standard. I would actually like the thought of a balanced Melee.

The only changes to higher tier characters I'd say are Sheik (change that **** D-throw so it doesn't chain-**** the lower tiers and MAYBE nerf F-air's KO power), Fox (nerf the KO power of U-Smash and U-air), and Marth (make him lighter). Besides that, I don't think the upper tiers need changes. It's better to instead work on buffing the lower tiers from there.

CRASHIC? Do you REALLY think spacies are so broken that everyone needs to be able FF like them? REALLY?

 

[LoganW]

crashic doesn't know what he's talking about.
Brawl was hacked cause it sucks
melee is already too good

 

[lordvaati]

Ok,I got more.

Mewtwo(holy crap)

-increase weight(seriously)

-give faster dash

-more range to Fair

- make Dair less laggy

-turn Dthrow into a chaingrab move instead of a techchase move

-give a better standard A combo

-more stun from Confusion

-more knockback from D-tilt

-make Disable's distance longer

-stronger Usmash


Ness

-give telekenetic grab to make up for lack of range.

-make yo-yo better killing move

-less lag in PK Fire

-increase hitbox of Nair and Dair

-slightly faster ground speed

crashic doesn't know what he's talking about.
Brawl was hacked cause it sucks
melee is already too good

true, but it's still fun to talk about what changes could be made
to character flaws.

also LOL at Crashic's Idea of "Super Space Bros.Melee."

 

[joeplicate]

Melee+ ?

sounds like a truly terrible idea

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Yeah.. texture customization is one thing. But leave the game as it is. The only real changes that should be made is convenience ones like setting the options automatically (Stocks,team attack..etc) or when you cancel a map loading it goes into character screen instead of menu.

Just a couple basic examples, I wouldn't play a messed up game though. How long until fox shine or jiggz gets the nerf hammer? it'll happen, and it'll suck.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Only 3 things:

C-stick in Single Player

Texture without ISO hacking

Music without ISO hacking

I wish there was a way to do the latter 2 using AR and a memory card, but the files would be too big.
I think the only way that would EVER happen is if Gecko OS gets compatible with GC games and can patch the files before startup.

One can dream.

sigh......

 

[KirbyKaze]

Standardized jump speed.

None of this Bowser's jump startup being longer than Fox's U-smash. This is not good and does nothing useful. Jumps should take 4 or 5 frames to start. 9 is simply ridiculous. 7 is less bad, but still ridiculous.

Shields should be sized relative to your character. And with more control over angle.

More command grabs. We only have 2 mixups in this game. Hit and throw. Barring another mixup or more characters with pillars and/or good shield pressure (which would be other good additions), we need more means of grabbing people because some character simply do not have the grab range on their normal grab to procure them.

More means to shield pressure. Spacies and Peach are the only characters with any sort of true safe shield pressure that isn't incredibly awkward to use (ie. low, specific aerials). More of this. On not spacies or Peach.

Training mode CPU Replay command.

Training mode C-stick usable.

 

[metaXzero]

Yeah.. texture customization is one thing. But leave the game as it is. The only real changes that should be made is convenience ones like setting the options automatically (Stocks,team attack..etc) or when you cancel a map loading it goes into character screen instead of menu.

Just a couple basic examples, I wouldn't play a messed up game though. How long until fox shine or jiggz gets the nerf hammer? it'll happen, and it'll suck.

I don't recall Fox's shine or Jigglypuff in general shutting down characters so I wouldn't see why anyone would want that removed or nerfed. The only top tier things that IMO would really need a nerf are Sheik's D-throw/F-air and Fox's KO power in U-air and U-Smash). Everything else should be buffing the lower tiers to a playable level by whatever ways deemed neccessarily.

Anyway, even if a "Melee+" turned out horrible, it's not like we are unable to play Melee.

Though as it stands, I can't see a Melee+ taking off currently unless an SD loading method is found.

 

[Archangel]

Melee+ ?

sounds like a truly terrible idea

To me people who won't even consider the idea even if it's just for fun are the kind that would turn down a threesome proposal from their Girlfriend if she got Megan Fox to agree.

Not singling you out Joe I mean I play fox also and it's good knowing that 70% of the character are no threat and the remaining characters can be beat(even if the person is better then you)by a lucky shine gimp. LOL. But seriously the fact that High Tiers are doing stuff now has created alot of excitement and caused an Exploration in alot of people that wasn't' there before. I mean Watching Fox Falco Marth and Sheik is Fun but I've seen the 4 of them in at least 1000 matches. No Bull**** Probably close to 9000 actually no DBZ reference intended. It's was nice to see Falcon, Jiggs, Peach show there not just along for the trip in recent years. I think it would be cool to see a match with Marth vs Kirby actually done on even terms. I'm not unhappy with Melee at all but I'm not going to act like Mid Tiers and Lower will ever be able to win Tourney's like Genesis or ROM. You can see Mid Tiers get off sometimes though and win local events but on the big scale the fall inline and stay in their place It's why after nearly 3 years of being a Mario main I sold out for fox

 

[N64]

It seems you put a lot of effort into this and that's cool and all, but regardless of feasability I think you'll run into issues (some of which you've mentioned). It would be enough like melee to make us melee players familiar with it, but enough different to make things feel rather awkward. I think most of us wouldn't accept the new game. I know I personally would probably continue playing melee.

Also, i'm not going to go into this much, but rebalancing a cast of 26 characters in hopes of making them all relatively equal is a daunting task. We can make educated guesses on what will improve characters, but after these changes a whole new metagame is created and abuses can be potentially found for some of our changes, etc, potentially making characters overpowered or suddenly bottom tier.

Also also, i'm not a fan of some of your supposed changes (addressing OP), even overlooking that you probably don't know much about a majority of the characters (I don't either). But, 'making move X easier to hit' doesn't improve a char's tourney viability, unless you mean 'make the hitbox larger' or something by that. I have relatively precise control over pika's uair hitboxes by now, and he's still not tourney viable.

Though honestly I am interested in ideas from people in how they'd improve some characters. You can find some interesting innovation ideas. So I'll chip in what I'd change for pika.

Pikachu:

-Slightly improved horizontal hitbox on fair. Animationwise you can add a little spark on the end of his nose or whatever, but the added frontal reach on an aerial would be nice.

-Change dtilt's trajectory so that it's more similar to fox's dtilt, but with a little more hitstun. Effectively, this would become another tool to help pika get below his opponent.

-Change uair's starting damage to 5% (or at least 4%). 3% damage aerial is silly, even though otherwise it's amazing.

-The second hitbox to dair (first is in the air, second is when he hits the ground) should have a relatively powerful horizontal trajectory (similar to ylink's current dsmash).

-Extra knockback on the thunder (downB) cloud itself would be kinda cool, but not necessary.

-Land cancelled jolts would be cool, but also not necessary.

I think all of that would at least make pika bottom of high tier / top of mid.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

I don't recall Fox's shine or Jigglypuff in general shutting down characters so I wouldn't see why anyone would want that removed or nerfed. The only top tier things that IMO would really need a nerf are Sheik's D-throw/F-air and Fox's KO power in U-air and U-Smash). Everything else should be buffing the lower tiers to a playable level by whatever ways deemed neccessarily.

Anyway, even if a "Melee+" turned out horrible, it's not like we are unable to play Melee.

Though as it stands, I can't see a Melee+ taking off currently unless an SD loading method is found.

That wasn't my point. You just expanded it by wanting to change characters.
How long until everyone is playing a different game.

Terrible idea. Could ruin melee.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Pichu
make final hit box of down-b stronger
(or just increase the damage of the move overall)
Increase damage on forward air (right now it does almost as much to yourself)
increase runspeed slightly

I think everything should have 2 or 3 more frames of stun, it would turn him into a combo machine, much better than now fair could get some legit combos, dair could cobo into to something,nair to nair be more possible, larger hitbox for d-smash, what n64 said about about d-tilt I think that could really help or do nothing for pichu but if we have like 2 more frames of stun on them it what be sweet and up-B shouldn't be self hurting b-throw makes more scents.

Of and ice climbers dair should have a little bit more range to stop the beyond gay juggling.


Oh and you should make pichu weight more than giga bowser

 

[metaXzero]

That wasn't my point. You just expanded it by wanting to change characters.
How long until everyone is playing a different game.

Terrible idea. Could ruin melee.

OMG Pichu can win a tourney! Kirby isn't getting ***** to bits! Sheik just can't D-throw->D-throw and/or D-throw->F-air Bowser and friends. Melee sucks nao! > : (

Like I said, if an attempt at a balanced Melee ended up being terrible, WHAT is stopping us from playing regular Melee? Actually, what stops us from playing both?

 

[weird_lion]

yeah....I'm going to start posting a lot more 0___________________________________________0

 

[SpaceFalcon]

OMG Pichu can win a tourney! Kirby isn't getting ***** to bits! Sheik just can't D-throw->D-throw and/or D-throw->F-air Bowser and friends. Melee sucks nao! > : (

Like I said, if an attempt at a balanced Melee ended up being terrible, WHAT is stopping us from playing regular Melee? Actually, what stops us from playing both?

Lol alright. Although my logic is undeniable. I can already tell this is just a setup to failure.
You don't think I want to see low tiers own to? I just see the bigger picture and you don't.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Don't **** with perfection, son. Save this **** for Brawl.

 

[metaXzero]

Lol alright. Although my logic is undeniable. I can already tell this is just a setup to failure.
You don't think I want to see low tiers own to? I just see the bigger picture and you don't.

And you base it on.....what exactly? Their is no precedent of Melee being hacked for competitive purposes. And precedents with other games are hit-or-miss (or I assume their are misses since the only competitive mods I can think of are Counterstrike and the 2 Brawl mods) so their is no "This WILL definitely fail". If it gains enough interest, it could very well get it's own community and scene a la' Brawl+. And as I said, succeed or fail, you can still play ol' Melee.

 

[Tichinde925]

This would never replace Melee. This would be the same as Brawl+.

Now there would be 5 separate tournies people could attend: SSB64, SSBM, SSBB, Brawl+ and finally Melee+.

SSBM and SSBB are still the two main ones. The "+'s" would still only have a minimum of a $5 entry unless it was hosted at some overhyped tourny.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

melee+ sounds as retarted as brawl+. I feel there should be a thread about it making up a great name. like melee now with more low tier ****. melee LTR

 

[lordvaati]

Melee 1.5 fits.

or maybe Grand Melee.


(also,don't forget people:it's not real, and might not be. there is nothing wrong with a little What if talk.)

also:Spam, you traitor!

 

[LoganW]

Don't **** with perfection, son. Save this **** for Brawl.

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Brawl is bad. Melee is amazing you can't mess with this ****. Tell this guy to gtfo :D

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Melee has come a long way ya know. No need to hack it now just because sissies are still crying over .

 

[Crazy_mofo213]

crashic doesn't know what he's talking about.
Brawl was hacked cause it sucks
melee is already too good

QFT

I suggest beefing up Yoshi a bit.

 

[Takao9411]

Rofl, I thought about this a while back, and even though having a lot of the characters being balanced sounds nice, changing melee doesn't sound... That good. I can't think of a word.

 

[Bones0]

Melee is great, but anyone who honestly thinks it is perfect is just in denial. There is plenty of adjustments that could be made for lower tiers to make them more potent in competitions, and even if you don't want to change characters at all, you could do things like fixing the ledge on Battlefield or fixing phantom hits. There's loads of things that would be improved. Practically everyone was looking forward to the release of Brawl and a bunch of new techniques and characters, so obviously not everything was perfect.

 

[Vulcan55]

How could you not want a balanced Melee?
Taking something great, and making it even better.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Rofl, I thought about this a while back, and even though having a lot of the characters being balanced sounds nice, changing melee doesn't sound... That good. I can't think of a word.

Unnecessary is the word.

The purpose of Brawl+ is to take Brawl aspects and give them more depth/balance/etc. to make it more competitive. People who partake in that project do so because they were unsatisfied with Brawl's depth, I suppose.

Are people unsatisfied with Melee's depth? No? Well then, Melee+ would indeed be unnecessary. Melee is fine the way it is--there are characters I think could be better SFIV, but I wouldn't mess with it since it's already fairly balanced as it is.

 

[Vulcan55]

Dear everyone opposed (Of an idea that can't exist yet),

Stop using the word "Necessary".
You aren't god.

Regards,

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Don't **** with perfection, son. Save this **** for Brawl.

****ing this!

 

[Byron 1337]

It would be nice to see balance in this game though, Melee as it is pretty **** unbalanced. Give some characters better punishing options if they don't have a lot.

 

[Toadster5]

Bowser's down B should break shields.

 

[wool]

No melee is awesome the way it is now.

 

[metaXzero]

Are people here translating "balancing Melee" as "nerfing upper tier until they are unrecognizable and removing ATs"? WTF people?

A project like this would be closer to Balanced Brawl then Brawl+. Brawl+ was made due to unsatisfaction with the general game (physics and balance), while BBrawl was made due to unsatisfication with just the games character balance. We pretty much love Melee's physics, so it would make sensee for a competitive mod to be a BMelee type deal.

Also, I never understand this negative outlook that comes from suggestion of a competitive mod. It's not like your Melee discs will suddenly change :/