If the timer runs out the player with more time spent in the air will lose.

[sunshade]

I was reading a thread on the all is brawl website and I came across a very strange statement. Supposedly in japan if the timer runs out the player who spent the most time in the air loses.

The rule is implemented instead of a ledge grab limit and is used as an anti-planking/scrooging.

The rule struck me as odd to say the least. So what are your opinions on the matter?

 

[san.]

This sounds very fishy. Do you still have the link to the post? I'm very skeptical about that. Japan as a whole? A side-tourney? I just need a bit more info.


About the rule, I think it's nonsense. From early interviews, Brawl was centrally designed around aerial combat. Why inhibit this?

 

[WindMajor]

I don't like this rule at all. There are some characters that are more dependant on aerials (Toon Link) that might get cheated on this rule, especially when neither of them were planking.

 

[Blacknight99923]

um because if your opponent is planking your seriously trying to jump at them?

that being said this rule needs fine tweaking

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seems very weak, IMO. Aerial characters get gimped really hard, and it could end up with your opponent winning, even though he's two stocks down after a long and grueling battle where you just kept chipping him down.

 

[MrEh]

This rule would be amazing anti-planking measure if everyone except MK was incapable of jumping.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Well, keep in mind that this only comes into effect when the timer runs out... and lets face it, when does the timer run out in a match where someone isn't stalling?

Someone should do some test matches to see how it goes. Also... does hanging from the edge = air time?

 

[Orion*]

Also... does hanging from the edge = air time?

this

also. vs tl you could just run away like 3/4ths of the match on the ground. not care if you get hit as long as you dont lose, and then hit the ledge the last 2 minutes and he loses because hes spend the last 6 jumping around lol.

it also completely negates the viability of characters like wario, jiggz and peach lol.

it some ways this helps mk time people out XD.

 

[PieDisliker]

I suppose if this were in tact I'd have to approach with the bike instead of air. And I'd be using ftilt a lot more. And throwing tires.

But I'd still lose and would use MK next two games.

 

[AndreVeloso]

They obviously want to put Jigglypuff behind Ganondorf in their tier list

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Defidently unfair. Pretty much saying, Heavy Characters > Light Characters

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hanging from the ledge does count as Air Time

So I can see the logic behind this rule - if someone's trying to plank or scrooge, the other person simply stays grounded because the person planking/scrooging will rack up air time and the other person won't

This is still a very dodgy rule because its only MK that causes serious problems when doing these two things (certainly planking anyway). In other matches where MK isn't involved, things are geared heavily in the favour of characters who operate on the ground more and those that have powerful/reliable kill moves, such as Snake, because they are more likely to end the game with an actual result, not a Time Out. Characters like Peach (best example I could think of) would be penalized heavily from this rule because she can't be in the air too long and therefore can't use Floating very much either and she's also got weak KO power minus Up Smash which is very situational. This means her matches are more likely to take longer and are more likely to go to a Time Out. Combine this with an Air Time rule and Peach becomes pretty much unviable. Wario doesn't have the kill problems but Air Camping would be utterly ruined from this rule, which would eliminate a very large part of his game and really skew some of his match ups and make them worse such as vs DeDeDe

As Budget said, you could be in the lead by 2 stocks and end up losing because you've spent so much time in the air

Edge grabbing = Air Time but Air Time =/= Time spent planking/scrooging, which is the vital difference and the reason why this rule is so flimsy

 

[z00ted]

lol Peach would lose every time

 

[Flayl]

This sounds like word of mouth and/or remembered incorrectly. Definitely not worth it's own thread either.

 

[kackamee]

Its just another way to avoid planking. IMO it would REALLY hinder anyone that hard except maybe Jigglypuff. And then all that means is that they just have to make sure the timer doesn't end.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

The only way this could be, somewhat fair, would be if they arranged the tournament so its always Heavy vs Heavy, and vice versa.

 

[Tristan_win]

...You know why don't we cut the bull and start making rules that directly target meta knight?

Like for this rule make it so it only comes into effect when a time out happens and only if meta knight air time is more then his opponents.

Combining this rule with planking would help limit meta knight potential to stall while not effecting anyone else.

 

[Roie]

...You know why don't we cut the bull and start making rules that directly target meta knight?

Like for this rule make it so it only comes into effect when a time out happens and only if meta knight air time is more then his opponents.

Combining this rule with planking would help limit meta knight potential to stall while not effecting anyone else.

Because now you are no longer dealing with broken tactics, you are rebalancing and redesigning the game.

 

[Zatchiel]

This rule would end MK's top tier reign.

 

[Jon Farron]

That's unfair! D: I use all Air game characters basicly (ness, peach, Jiggs, samus, zss) so its horrible to me D: Good thing this only counts in japan

 

[Masky]

this rule would basically ban camping except for DDD's who would be almost broken

 

[Kewkky]

...You know why don't we cut the bull and start making rules that directly target meta knight?

But why directly target MK? Are you saying that MK's a huge problem in and of himself? Is his planking the source of his problematic reign? Is it so bad so as to consider it broken? If so, then why not just go pro-ban and ban him?

I mean, think about it... If MK's SO problematic you have to make lots of specific rules to keep him in play, don't you think that he's far too good compared to the other characters? Without all those rules, apparently he dominates too much, right? If he's THAT good, instead of making a couple of rules to make him play all awkward with the rest of the cast, why not just take him out of the game instead? And making the rules target him only pretty much mean "this character's far too good to play normally"... Essentially meaning he's broken.

They're all legit question-paragraphs, so answer them if you find the time to.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Yeah, can we just ban him and get on with our lives? I find it a problem when any new discussion somehow turns around into an MK-related discussion.

 

[Limeee]

it would definately work

games never time out unless someone is air camping/planking anyways

when you say aerial characters get screwed, your an idiot.
lets say MK planks for 7 mins, he has 7 mins of air time
if (toon link was brought up as an example, so lets use him) is an aerial character, that doesn't matter, because he won't be in the air for those 7 mins
and, if you use aerials to deal with planking, your stupid

the only solution is to plug out their controller

 

[phi1ny3]

A lot of these people aren't taking into account a very important "clause" in this rule:

It only occurs when the match times out!

That being said, that is still very possible to happen w/ non-MK characters like Wario who needs a lot of defensive precautions in some MUs

This also hands a really nasty advantage to another character I'm sure people wouldn't be too happy losing out to due to time: ICs

This forces people to be more risky since nearly 90% of the time characters fighting ICs are hanging around in the air.

That and DDD.

 

[Kewkky]

when you say aerial characters get screwed, your an idiot.
lets say MK planks for 7 mins, he has 7 mins of air time
if (toon link was brought up as an example, so lets use him) is an aerial character, that doesn't matter, because he won't be in the air for those 7 mins
and, if you use aerials to deal with planking, your stupid

By calling them idiots and having a big flaw in your post, what do you think it makes you sound like (so careful how you address people in the community, it only makes you look like a douche, try and be nice instead)? What's the flaw you ask? Well...

How do you think TL does everything he does? He jumps. he SHDL's by jumping, he pulls out bombs by jumping, his aerials are his safest moves when compared to all of his ground moves, his ZAIR is done by jumping as well! He's also floaty and jumps high, so every time he jumps he spends a very nice amount of time in the air. His game is based on doing chip damage with his projectiles and punishing your approaches, then hitting you with his kill moves once you reach the right %. So, his game is forced to be aerial, he's forced to spend the vast majority of his time in the air.

So, what can MK do? He can be very safe on the ground, very safe on the air, and very safe offstage. Since TL will be forced to NOT jump around too much (due to gaining too much air time, and not being able to time their opponents out this way), they're forced to either approach very unsafe on the floor, or aim to beat down all 3 stocks of their opponent and keeping an eye on the timer so that it doesn't run out... What does MK do? He just stays on the floor shielding everything, upBing OoS then gliding away/landing immediately. What can TL do against this situation?

If it's been over 4 minutes and TL has spent way too much time in the air compared to MK (certainly possible, it's that way already if both opponents play how their players play these days [top MKs don't plank and scrooge as much as people make it seem]), MK could start planking and air camping whenever TL gets close without worrying about him having too much air time and losing the match. heck, MK would WANT to time out TL by staying on the ground all game, and since TL's approaches and pressures are all aerial, he's GOING to jump and camp. Even if MK loses 2 stocks and has his % racked up to 999%, and TL has 3 stocks 0%, as long as TL jumped more than him, TL's gonna lose.

Plus, why would MK want to plank for 7 minutes when the rules clearly state "people with most airtime lose"? It's like saying, whenever there's a 50 LGL in place, MK will plank for 49 LGLs then start playing normally... People are smarter than THAT.


It certainly sounds like it makes the matchup even more in MK's favor. No planking or scrooging needed to beat TL soundly now, it's all about just sticking to the ground more than TL... And the same thing applies to Peach, ZSS, Wario, Jiggs, and whatever other aerial-based characters are in the game.

 

[Overswarm]

This is one of the dumbest things ever, everyone who supports it likes molesting kittens.

Just saying.

 

[o-Serin-o]

How is this stupid...?

I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this, OS.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't really feel like repeating myself, it's already been brought up and ridiculed in the BBR. I might copy pasta myself later.

But this is really dumb. So dumb it shouldn't need explaining at all.

 

[theunabletable]

@Serin: Because it's waaaay more abuseable than an LGL.

 

[o-Serin-o]

If you're genuinely fighting, it shouldn't be a problem since it only affects the game if it happens to end by a time out.

<_<

 

[Overswarm]

timeouts are allowed

they're part of the game

keep your rules off my timeouts

 

[Kewkky]

If you're genuinely fighting, it shouldn't be a problem since it only affects the game if it happens to end by a time out.

<_<

If it's been over 4 minutes and TL has spent way too much time in the air compared to MK (certainly possible, it's that way already if both opponents play how their players play these days [top MKs don't plank and scrooge as much as people make it seem]), MK could start planking and air camping whenever TL gets close without worrying about him having too much air time and losing the match. heck, MK would WANT to time out TL by staying on the ground all game, and since TL's approaches and pressures are all aerial, he's GOING to jump and camp. Even if MK loses 2 stocks and has his % racked up to 999%, and TL has 3 stocks 0%, as long as TL jumped more than him, TL's gonna lose.

It certainly sounds like it makes the matchup even more in MK's favor. No planking or scrooging needed to beat TL soundly now, it's all about just sticking to the ground more than TL... And the same thing applies to Peach, ZSS, Wario, Jiggs, and whatever other aerial-based characters are in the game.

Doesn't it seem like an unfair, metagame-changing rule? There are some characters who would benefit from this rule way too much, and others who will be limited even more than they should

 

[o-Serin-o]

Which is why in the case of a time out, go in the order of:

Stocks

Legdegrabs

Air time.

 

[Player-1]

you forgot %s

 

[Kewkky]

Which is why in the case of a time out, go in the order of:

Stocks

Legdegrabs

Air time.

What if the opponent's an IC player? They don't need to jump or grab the ledge, and whenever opponents get close they run the risk of getting 0>death'd. Notice how this rule buffs their advantage even more? Before this rule was implemented in our hypothetical scenario, ICs would only win if they had more stocks or a % lead. Now, they can win if they have more stocks AND the same amount of stocks, since ICs aren't gonna be jumping around (they only do so to approach by blizzard walling, or to uair opponents above them, or other aggressive maneuvers of the sort).

 

[o-Serin-o]

you forgot %s

Even if MK loses 2 stocks and has his % racked up to 999%, and TL has 3 stocks 0%, as long as TL jumped more than him, TL's gonna lose.

The point Kewkky made.

What if the opponent's an IC player? They don't need to jump or grab the ledge, and whenever opponents get close they run the risk of getting 0>death'd. Notice how this rule buffs their advantage even more? Before this rule was implemented in our hypothetical scenario, ICs would only win if they had more stocks or a % lead. Now, they can win if they have more stocks AND the same amount of stocks, since ICs aren't gonna be jumping around (they only do so to approach by blizzard walling, or to uair opponents above them, or other aggressive maneuvers of the sort).

I understand this, and it would be a buff, but there are still ways to get around this, and still get around the air time rule.

While it is incredibly risky of getting grabbed out of a read, rolls will still exist and a lowered about of aerials could still keep ICs from having too much of an incredible buff.

As far as juggles go, if it comes down to only SoPo being left, any time offstage could easily be exploited to make sure the other player gets a pretty widened gap so that when SoPo eventually loses the stock, they could play without worrying about the the amount of time he spent in the air.

 

[Tesh]

This rule might as well just target Metaknight. I don't agree with this rule at all, but obviously no one here is complaining about Pit, Puff, Ness, Toon Link, Marth, Peach or even Bowser's "air camping". These are all characters that might routinely jump as soon as they hit the ground for a great deal of a match. They could easily have much more air time than an opponent while being aggressive. Not to mention you can be forced into the air when you get hit by pretty much anything.

Matches don't only go to time when someone is stalling.

This rule just lets you time people out and win when you are behind based on the idea that "he jumped too much"

The rule is obviously about Metaknight and no one else.

Matches can't go on forever.
Therefore you set a certain amount of time for the match.
There has to be a way to decide who wins when the time runs out.
People will be timed out one way or another.
If a character is just too good/safe every time he jumps, this won't solve that.

 

[AvaricePanda]

This is a bad, abusable rule, and MK's, or Wario's, or anyone's air-camping isn't broken. Only his planking is, frame data wise, broken, and a rule that targets specifically MK's planking is a much better option than this.

pretty much a tl;dr of what I PMd Kewkky

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

This is a horrible rule. There are some characters (I'll use jigglypuff) who have a much better air game than ground game. Where would this get them? DEAD LAST. MK is not the only character in the game.