r3d d09
Smash Master
Don't get grabbed. Don't get pressured. Don't play Yoshi.
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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee
- Thread starter Prawn
- Start date
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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- Jun 3, 2010
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298484
IMO I would make the following changes followed by a brief reason why:
Snake: 0 - Long detailed gameplan. I'm contemplating making a writeup about it, but I think it's even or our advantage at this stage in the metagame.
Marth: +1 - I'm not sure what the reasoning is for even. He has to be the most grabbable character in the top tier. Can he separate? Not very Easily. Can he gimp/kill Nana? Yes. Can he beat out the Uair game? No. Can he evade grab? Not very easily if you know the matchup.
Pikachu: +1 - The top Pikachu in the nation lost to Ally's IC. The Pikachu boards feel like the matchup is in our favor heavily. I can see the seperation power of QAC to Thunder killing potential, but results clearly show it's in our favor for the time being
Lucario: +1 - The MOST ISSDI > DSGable character of all time.
TL: -2 - One of the only (maybe the only) character that's capable of shutting down both the grab AND Uair game. Probably our worst matchup if played correctly.
Outside of that, it's pretty accurate. I don't know enough about the ZSS and Yoshi Matchup to comment on it, but they don't seem too correct from experience.
IMO I would make the following changes followed by a brief reason why:
Snake: 0 - Long detailed gameplan. I'm contemplating making a writeup about it, but I think it's even or our advantage at this stage in the metagame.
Marth: +1 - I'm not sure what the reasoning is for even. He has to be the most grabbable character in the top tier. Can he separate? Not very Easily. Can he gimp/kill Nana? Yes. Can he beat out the Uair game? No. Can he evade grab? Not very easily if you know the matchup.
Pikachu: +1 - The top Pikachu in the nation lost to Ally's IC. The Pikachu boards feel like the matchup is in our favor heavily. I can see the seperation power of QAC to Thunder killing potential, but results clearly show it's in our favor for the time being
Lucario: +1 - The MOST ISSDI > DSGable character of all time.
TL: -2 - One of the only (maybe the only) character that's capable of shutting down both the grab AND Uair game. Probably our worst matchup if played correctly.
Outside of that, it's pretty accurate. I don't know enough about the ZSS and Yoshi Matchup to comment on it, but they don't seem too correct from experience.
Roller
Smash Legend
Pikachu should DEFINITELY be +1 for us. As someone who plays both characters, and has tried the mu both ways. There is no reason that mu should be equal.You can pivot/shieldgrab pikas approaches; You can solo CG him to solid percents; IBs>jolt since you have 2 and they trade; If they throw out a dumb jolt when you are too close it is easy to ps--> grab, and almost all pikachus will do at least 1-2 of those dumb jolts per game. Especially if you condition them by not going for the punish at first. If they are too close to safely jolt then blizzard can close out most remaining options. And while pikachu has the tools to screw nana up after she is seperated, you can live for a longass time with popo due to pikas kill moves being easy to see coming and punishable. (mostly fsmash/usmash, and if you know what you're doing thunder shouldn't hit you.)
The exception to all this is Pikapika! He is a god amongst men in comparison to other pikas in the matchup. And has the wins to prove it.
The exception to all this is Pikapika! He is a god amongst men in comparison to other pikas in the matchup. And has the wins to prove it.
I played him in a MM when I was way worse than I am now and won >_> lol I don't think he's any better at the match-up than other pikas he just mashes fast.
I argued to death with esam for pika to be +1 ics and he wouldn't budge.
I argued to death with esam for pika to be +1 ics and he wouldn't budge.
Teh Future
Smash Master
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD:
we shud moneys match so u c diff :]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Roller
Smash Legend
Last time PikaPika played Lain he won.
Just sayin'
Just sayin'
PikaPika!
Smash Ace
You lost to kid goggles, just sayin
I'm not sure what that has to do with the pikachu match-up. I also grabbed him 17 times in two games.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
I think ICs v Peach is +2 for ICs, but hey, that's just me.
Teh Future
Smash Master
but bowser can do the matchup gr8! he kills nana at 0 and gets free wins on RC by spamming invincibility :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Teh Future
Smash Master
peach kills nana at 60 tho =[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
Roller
Smash Legend
I beat every peach I played at Pound in the majority of games we played, with the exception of King Beef. I don't think it's that bad. But most of the peaches (most notably Kyon from Fl) don't really have decent ICs in their area. So idk. It is very annoying though. I would say it's either even or +1 them. Barely.
Peach beats ics. Play nicole lol shes the only good peach with ics experience. I destroyed all the other peaches i played at pound because they sucked at the match-up. It might be even or -1 either way ics def dont win. She negates our uair game and can bait our bairs eaisly and is one of the only characters with more than one safe approach.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
I guess you forgot about SiiS3. It usually takes me almost a full game to get into the swing of things against Ice Climbers and the individual player's accompanying playstyle, the matchup itself is a huge shift from most means of conventional play, similar to fighting Falco. We only played one game (maybe two). Just take our friendlies at SiiS3 as the clearer example of how well I can play the matchup.
Future is the most dangerous ICs I've encountered by far though. Holy **** that guy is almost like 9B with his grabs. xD
I sucked at siis3 compared to now, and i only remember playing you one match with ics there. I dont take examples from like 7 months ago for how i play now lol.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
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But remember that one time...
I actually forgot where I was going with this.
But seriously, ICs obliterate peach if you're patient lol.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Neither do I normally, but saying Nicole is the only one who knows what she's doing based off of friendlies (for the most part) with the Peaches isn't fair. Cheese knows I'm not a total idiot at the matchup; I'll run, poke, separate, play gay, do whatever I have to do with something on the line (although I got mad lucky with my bomb pull second game and we both gave the nod to that lol). That isn't the case in friendlies. Not to mention I'd never take ICs to Lylat, the incline/decline and lack of room on the stage kills my keep away game and is grab/platform pressure heaven for those little devils. That's where we played if I recall correctly. xD
oh jordan other peaches are good at the mu too.
like i told you, your weird style would beat any peach lol. remember when we first played? you ***** me. most peaches are just too campy and dont take enough risks imo. getting grabbed is a deterrent of course but if you just hang out and try to bait them you wont win much.
imo its best for peach to take advantage of the frame difference in popo & nana's shield. i think its like 6 frames or something? idk for sure. she can pressure their shield well and can keep nana and popo separated well if the player doesnt just blindly go at nana (cause obviously popo will be there to hit her). plus like future said nana dies really early, she is an idiot and cant DI peach's normally weak kill moves.
seems pretty even or a little in peach's favor to me and i have alot of experience from two very good, very different (stylisitically) ic players.
like i told you, your weird style would beat any peach lol. remember when we first played? you ***** me. most peaches are just too campy and dont take enough risks imo. getting grabbed is a deterrent of course but if you just hang out and try to bait them you wont win much.
imo its best for peach to take advantage of the frame difference in popo & nana's shield. i think its like 6 frames or something? idk for sure. she can pressure their shield well and can keep nana and popo separated well if the player doesnt just blindly go at nana (cause obviously popo will be there to hit her). plus like future said nana dies really early, she is an idiot and cant DI peach's normally weak kill moves.
seems pretty even or a little in peach's favor to me and i have alot of experience from two very good, very different (stylisitically) ic players.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
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I figured out a way around the shield difference so I can double powershield peach's jab out of fair and other stuff that normally makes her landings safe. Since then, I've thought the matchup is lolfree.
In matchup discussion, I just assume if you get separated Nana dies anyway, but peach is good at bairing nana and laughing at her.
If the ICs get behind peach (ie: she's floating and her back is to them), she should be grabbed no matter what the case is, utilt/uangled ftilt beats dairs that are too high to pivot grab, and pivot grab grabs all the other options.
ICs can space everything but perfect fair with bair, and can SDI dair to nair which sets up grabs.
I still don't see how Peach wins :/
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Peach should not be attempting a landing fair to jab much if at all in this matchup. The risk of grab armor in addition to both of them having a chance at a grab is too great. I learned that lesson the first time I fought Lain.
You're absolutely correct on their pivot grabs beating out most of her options, it certainly increases the difficulty and you/Future utilized the tool quite well. I just go for pokes as much as possible in the matchup and abuse any momentum or separation that I can get as much as I can. It's hard for me to determine anything about this matchup on paper, because it's one of those matchups that forces a player to drastically switch up their game, so it becomes more of a situation for making the best judgment call that one can make rather than picking apart the matchup itself. ICs are just...that intrusive lol. I know that sounds kind of weird but I hope I made some kind of sense. xD
Peach doesn't win this matchup. It's always been even imo.
xxshermyxx
Smash Rookie
this is very confusing??
in the opinion of an IC main, does this MU fall into 55-45 peach, or 55-45 ICs? last time went to a tourny i was getting beat by people i shouldnt be losing to, what do u do in this mu?
in the opinion of an IC main, does this MU fall into 55-45 peach, or 55-45 ICs? last time went to a tourny i was getting beat by people i shouldnt be losing to, what do u do in this mu?
yeah i rarely fair on shield against them, generally i just use it when they're in the air with me to punish an uair/bair or an usmash they try to do OOS.
i usually just dair, turnip drop, or punish rolls when i'm floating above them. after the first dair its really just a guessing game imo. their pivot grab is good but it wont hit if peach knows to float high enough. idk cheese you really dont take baiting into account that much. i'm not trying to say peach solidly beats them by any means but i wouldnt call the MU free in your favor. like i said it seems about even to me, maybe a little in peach's favor but it does depend on how campy the ics play.
i usually just dair, turnip drop, or punish rolls when i'm floating above them. after the first dair its really just a guessing game imo. their pivot grab is good but it wont hit if peach knows to float high enough. idk cheese you really dont take baiting into account that much. i'm not trying to say peach solidly beats them by any means but i wouldnt call the MU free in your favor. like i said it seems about even to me, maybe a little in peach's favor but it does depend on how campy the ics play.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
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- Jun 23, 2008
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I don't take baits into account for two reasons. One is that it's a player to player interaction, not a character to character interaction, and thus irrelevant to MU discussion. The other is that I just stand still until people do something dumb.
Turnips in general are a bad idea unless you're throwing them at Nana because IC item desynchs are stupid and broken.
You admit that after the dair is a guessing game, ICs reward for correct guesses is much greater than Peach's...thus IC favor?
2-DJeff
Smash Master
Ic vs pika +1 or+2 IC
IC vs peach +1 IC
being a good masher has nothing to do with your character. to a certain existent
Eddie G
Smash Hero
By that logic the ICs would have something like a 70:30 on everyone (on neutrals) from the infinite alone, since the reward for that is tremendous. xD
ch33s3
Smash Lord
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- Jun 23, 2008
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I think they 70:30 or better every character not named MK.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
agreed. Thats why we should do a MK MU discussion since every one and i mean like 70% of the smash community picks up MK or snake for this match
I really think you guys overrate ics lol. Peach is one of the hardest characters to grab, ics cannot reliably punish her dair(she has to mis-space it or be baited to punish it) and is one of the only characters that has actual safe approaches on ics.
Its even or slightly in peachs favor imo because ics can punish her landings well and play a good zoning game with her, the problem is that she takes away most of their vertical game and is very hard to grab. When you take away a characters best strengths you are going to do well against them.
so will type more later.
Its even or slightly in peachs favor imo because ics can punish her landings well and play a good zoning game with her, the problem is that she takes away most of their vertical game and is very hard to grab. When you take away a characters best strengths you are going to do well against them.
so will type more later.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
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- 9,311
Can Peach separate? Yes
Can Peach gimp Nana? Kind of. There are better characters at it for sure.
Can Peach force Approach? Turnips random pulls are scary lol
Can Peach evade grab game? Floating says yes. Unless you're super patient
Can Peach negate the Uair game? Effectively yes. She's rarely zoned to where you're going to be Uairing her. She doesn't "beat" the uair game like TL iBomb would. But she negates it for sure.
Therefore advantage peach.
Can Peach gimp Nana? Kind of. There are better characters at it for sure.
Can Peach force Approach? Turnips random pulls are scary lol
Can Peach evade grab game? Floating says yes. Unless you're super patient
Can Peach negate the Uair game? Effectively yes. She's rarely zoned to where you're going to be Uairing her. She doesn't "beat" the uair game like TL iBomb would. But she negates it for sure.
Therefore advantage peach.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
^ Indeed, indeed.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
Ok can we get back on this please? I suck verse ness. Talk kthx.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
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- Jun 23, 2008
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I'm not too familiar with the ness matchup, but if you can CG him consistently, his moves aren't particularly safe, his projectiles aren't too good on stage (PKT ***** our recovery though), and he's exceedingly easy to gimp with ice blocks. What exactly are your issues in the MU? What's he do to you that you're having trouble dealing with? His fair is pretty safe, and he wins in the air, but if you stay grounded and safe I can't imagine him doing too well.
On another note: I've been having some issues with Marth lately. I lost to NEO and Pierce was very competitive with me. Nana seems to get hit by everything and I can't keep her with me. I'm probably doing something wrong. I zone with blizzard only when safe. I run under fairs when they're too high and punish with uair, and just wait for something to be spaced poorly for grab. If the Marth is very consistent with their spacing though, I get into trouble.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
Nanas perfect shield is ghey. Ness just gets me with his grab range. Does a dthrow to fair to dair spike and kill me. Only thing I could find useful was iceblocking his pkf to death until he does a jump pkf and the grab comes again
Roller
Smash Legend
Can't you pivotgrab Ness's fair? I'll test tomorrow if I don't get an answer. But I have a friend that mains ness who I haven't played in a while and I'm fairly sure I did that to him a lot.
Marth is annoying for me as well. Any character that I can't just pivot grab is dumb. Lain's advice to me on the matchup was pretty much, use blizzard when safe and powershield. Powershielding is how I get 80% of my grabs vs Marth. Luckily we don't have many that are decent out here so I don't have to worry about it.
And not to end discussion on Marth, but I'm actually having problems with Peach and MK. Myollnir has no idea how lucky he is getting to play every game on neutrals.. And the peachs in my area know the matchup too well for obvious reasons.
Marth is annoying for me as well. Any character that I can't just pivot grab is dumb. Lain's advice to me on the matchup was pretty much, use blizzard when safe and powershield. Powershielding is how I get 80% of my grabs vs Marth. Luckily we don't have many that are decent out here so I don't have to worry about it.
And not to end discussion on Marth, but I'm actually having problems with Peach and MK. Myollnir has no idea how lucky he is getting to play every game on neutrals.. And the peachs in my area know the matchup too well for obvious reasons.