Ice Climbers forum project: A private ice climbers wiki; 1st purge done.

[swordgard]

In an effort to fix some of the most prominent problems on the ice climbers boards I am starting a new project, a private ice climbers wiki. Two problems currently plague our boards to the point where it is slowly dying.

These two problems are lack of organization in the information gathered, and lack of information overall about our character. The 1st problem can be easily fixed using a proper structure or format. The 2nd problem is usually cause by the lack of incentive for most people to try to do research about ice climbers, and lack of incentive to share it.

A private ice climbers wiki will solve these problems. A wiki is a lot more organized than our boards currently is, and allows people to easily look for information. It is also going to be private, not just "because hiding our techniques is cool and nobody will know" which would involve being hidden only from non-ice climbers. This would actually only be a side-effect, since I believe a wiki which is private to everyone but the contributors would give an incentive for people to get information. Share information, get information. If you don't share any, you don't get any. Who you are and how well you place is irrelevant, its all about advancing our metagame.

The private wiki was already set up. I am only looking at the moment for contributors. If you believe you should be a part of this project, then post here and show any contribution you have made to this community. I will contact you directly if you are to be a part of this.

The wiki was set up on springnote, in order to be a part of this you will need a springnote account on springnote.com .

 

[B0NK]

Here are my most recent post. I would like to be able to contribute to this project. Seeing as this board has become more of a social board, I haven't had much of a reason to post things such as this. And because the boards at the moment don't post much about match-ups and techniques anymore, I'm not sure how much other climber players actually know. A collection of data and more details on the nuances of techs would be a great way to spread that info. to other climber players. This project would be a great incentive for me to post more on these boards seeing as I don't use these boards as a social thread.

Pretty much this, but it's not so much your desynched but are able to delay when to start your desynch as much as the length of SV.

So after a dash dance (facing ->, dash <-, then dash -> but keep running) Even when you keep running you are still desynched.

To start the desynched stop running and Popo will skid a little foward leaning his head. Right when Popo begins to slow down input a move for nana. What will happen is that during the slow down lag, nana will perform a move. You have about the length of SV before nana becomes too close to popo to perform the desynch and the frame window becomes smaller the longer distance you run (I think, didn't actually collect frame data >.>).

If your late one of two things will happen, either they both do the special input or the input was during nana's slow down lag and popo does the special input first.

I hope that explanation was clear, it's a lot simpler then it sounds and very easy to perform. I'm heading to a tourney now so I won't be on for most of the day to answer more question or try and get video to show what I'm saying. If a video is needed I may be able to make it tomorrow.

D3 shouldn't be using his f-tilt if you already started your dash animation, it's supposed to be spaced so that it catches you at the start-up of your dash so you can't shield...and if your not running a perfect shield doesn't get you a grab on off of his f-tilt.

Inhale is also a factor on stage, just not so much but be aware that if you do get inhaled in he has invicible frames he can abuse to separate the IC's (just like any grab)

"Anything in the air" is dumb and will just lead to free hits for D3. D3's dair out spaces your uair so if he see's you going for it a D3 can just used those five jumps to out space you in the air. And if the final hit of the dair hits you or nana, your separated again. It's more of a bait and punish game when the D3 is in the air, bait the dair then punish with an aerial.

I'm not saying that it's D3 advantage (that would be dumb), but just know there is a lot more to the match-up then you stated.

It's only slightly our advantage and I don't see how this match-up is anything like G&W. (there both floaties maybe? really don't see much similarities)

Really this match-up is less about punishing z-air (which most TL that know the match-up don't use much on IC's) and projectile and more about punishing his limited KO options.

As long as you don't get forced in the air (or off edge) when your at ko % then his grounded ko options are all quite laggy and easily punished. Of course if your in the air then watch out for whatever fresh aerial he has left because they all either KO or send you off stage xD
(About the Toon Link match-up)

From my experience with playing Snakeee in friendlies at pound 4...if the ZSS is spacing her side-b right (of course retreating) the only option you have is to close the distance more giving the ZSS player less options.

In those friendlies the only time I ended up in the blind spot of the side-b was because Snakeee mis-spaced the side-b. It's seems to me that's it's unfortunate that side-b is ZSS only real spacing tool on climbers since a mis-spaced side-b or a timed approach from the IC's player equals death.

Also when your close, ZSS's only real options are a fast tilt/jab, d-smash, spotdodge, and jumping away which the ZSS will mix-up. ZSS player will be playing a bait and punish game the whole time trying to get the climber player above her where she can do some real damage. A well timed spotdodge from the ZSS player can end-up being an up-tilt into her choice of u-airs, up-smash, up-b, etc which is what the IC's player should avoid when they get close enough.

Snakeee usually just threw the suit pieces off the stage when the stage is a flat field because if climbers get a hold of the pieces it's bad news. The only time the pieces were thrown at me was on BF where if I start up desynched, nana would get hit and separated, or if i just got off the platform the pieces would be off stage out of my hands.

If climbers get a hold of the pieces it's like having an up-air with more range as you desynch...if they try to jump over your wall of blizzards you throw the piece up...if she attempts to side-b through your blizzard you throw the piece straight and stop it, close the distance between yourself and ZSS.

ZSS's grab isn't a bad tool to separate the climbers, but it's obviously to risky to use most of the time (A miss=death >.<). The only time I can see the ZSS using it is if your sit in your shield or she pivot grabs as you dash towards her.

Basically from the start of the match, the ZSS will camp, once you get close enough to make side-b an un-safe option watch how the ZSS reacts, if she is jumping over you up-air or wait for her to land and punish. If she jab/d-smashes/spotdodge mix-ups it's just waiting for the time to punish with a well placed perfect shield or grabbing out of her spotdodge. This match-up is hard for ZSS just because your answer to those options means that you won't be taking much damage because you can just shield...if the ZSS is stupid enough to try and grab, your spotdodge out of sheild equals=death for the ZSS.

I don't like putting numbers on match-ups but I see the match-up as IC's advantage.

I found another way to chaingrab while fused,

After you b-throw to nana, nana will ground release the opponent if you don't buffer a throw. So instead of buffering in the throw to chaingrab just let nana release the opponent.

Nana will ground release the opponent behind popo, so you just have to turn around and grab.

So while fused, Popo Grab> B-throw> Nana Regrab > Grab Release> Popo Turn-around grab> Repeat

This can't be done if the character is released off an edge, but this can easily be done in the middle of a platform.

 

[raidos]

Sounds like a good idea SG.

Probably my only contribution to the meta game even though no one uses it xD : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFc7yNmkpNQ

 

[kackamee]

O: I thought exactly about this when you said a project. Lol. Good job Swordgard.

Well, I feel I have alot to contribute. I haven't found any of my posts. Most of my "insightful" posts are pretty old. My earliest 2:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Cheese. I more so agree with Hylian. I've played one of the best ROB's in the country (Stingerz) And it may have some similarities to the Diddy matchup but I wouldn't go even near as far to say that they are the same, much less that ROB is easier. ROB has alot of safe moves vs. the IC's that aren't punishable by ordinary means. But the thing is, ROB is predictable. In this particular matchup, you have to really know where your opponent is going and catch him in his more laggy moves. It is hard, but once you get used to it, I don't think it's THAT hard. But ROB still is pretty gay.

Thing I noticed about IC's vs. ROB. Most IC's try to punish the wrong things, When I shield a Dsmash, I don't try to punish it. I just run and regroup. His gyro should ALWAYS get absorbed if it touches your sheild. O.o I've never seen it not get absorbed. Rob is VERY punishable if he's above you. You just have to be cautious. Also watch out for F-Tilt, it's a killer. Other then those things I truly don't think ROB is that hard.

I have alot of matchup knowledge to contribute. O:

 

[J4pu]

I'm interested

I haven't really discovered anything per say

I was the one who pushed for an explanation to the Kakera desync though because I realized it's uniqueness and usefulness, which everybody else just wrote off and thought was a dash dance desync.
Uhh, I figured out you can desync by doing a falling IB at the right time causing Popo to do it grounded and nana in the air which have different durations
I'm still somewhat new to IC's so I haven't really contributed anything new I guess.

 

[Teh Future]

aahaahahhahahahahhaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lol

 

[Snakeee]

Erm the ZSS stuff is actually pretty inaccurate. I hardly Side B much against IC's. You can get a grab when I use it in two ways: 1) Powershield it and dash grab. It is easy to be able to do this purely on reaction when you know the match up somewhat well (and you have decent reaction time). 2) Simply run under me if I short hop it and grab.

What does work pretty decently involving side B on climbers is if I short hop, full charge paralyzer in between their ice blocks. If I time this well enough I can Side B as you shield the paralyzer and either shield stab at least one of them, or if not weaken their shield to the point where I can safely approach them. This is something I actually go for on the ground somewhat frequently as the ground game is horrid for me in this match up.

The match up from my point of view as ZSS mostly relies on reads, and my own mix up game to try and get in a spot where I can get them airborne. ZSS has many attacks that can hit both climbers and her juggle game is so insane that I can juggle both to oblivion. Her up air beats their down air. Lastly, gimping Nana is super easy for a competent ZSS (the few, if any)

It's about even, but both characters can potentially take a stock with one breach so it gets kind of silly.

 

[Rubberbandman]

I havent discovered anything really new, but hope to contribute.

I'm going to start to look for more uses for nair myself, since I feel its not used very often and could be potentially useful for setting up for some things because of its low knockback and auto-canceling.

 

[B0NK]

Erm the ZSS stuff is actually pretty inaccurate. I hardly Side B much against IC's. You can get a grab when I use it in two ways: 1) Powershield it and dash grab. It is easy to be able to do this purely on reaction when you know the match up somewhat well (and you have decent reaction time). 2) Simply run under me if I short hop it and grab.

What does work pretty decently involving side B on climbers is if I short hop, full charge paralyzer in between their ice blocks. If I time this well enough I can Side B as you shield the paralyzer and either shield stab at least one of them, or if not weaken their shield to the point where I can safely approach them. This is something I actually go for on the ground somewhat frequently as the ground game is horrid for me in this match up.

The match up from my point of view as ZSS mostly relies on reads, and my own mix up game to try and get in a spot where I can get them airborne. ZSS has many attacks that can hit both climbers and her juggle game is so insane that I can juggle both to oblivion. Her up air beats their down air. Lastly, gimping Nana is super easy for a competent ZSS (the few, if any)

It's about even, but both characters can potentially take a stock with one breach so it gets kind of silly.

This would have been great for when we were first discussing ZSS in the IC's match-up thread. Nice to have more info though since in MD/VA we don't really have any ZSS players. I wish we had more friendlies when you were here, they were fun! I apologize if the info was inaccurate seeing as I was basing it off observation from our friendlies and other times I have played ZSS players. But I see I wasn't wrong about ZSS doing most of her damage when the IC player are forced or hit into the air. From my point of view as a climber the match-up is about giving the ZSS player less space to work with while not being predictable when trying to accomplish this. Also when I said ZSS using side-b often I was not specifically referring to you, but also other ZSS mains I have played. I'm aware that it's not a great tool in the match-up (seeing as it's not hard to punish), but it all depends on the spacing and where the IC player is positioned.

Which also brings up the point that having the other character main to talk about the match-ups seems necessary as IC players won't know all the nuances of the other character main and the effectiveness of each of the other character main's tools are.

 

[r3d d09]

some of this is my idea :3

/ego

we are going to try and get on this soon. just people make a list in word or something and then when we ask for it, you don't have to search for it.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'll contribute. i'm not going to post my contributions, but you know that i know things.

 

[ch33s3]

i'll contribute. i'm not going to post my contributions, but you know that i know things.

I think I could make the same post. So I will. There.

 

[swordgard]

Actually if you could at least link me to 1-2 contributions it would help >.> I havent seen much going on in like 6 months.

 

[Hylian]

I'd rather just keep contributing to smashboards honestly. I've already posted a ton of stuff here.

 

[J4pu]

those two options aren't exclusive Hylian
the point of the private wiki is getting people who don't share because they get no benefit out of it and would rather use it in tourneys and stuff when people won't know about it to actually share their stuff so that they can get filled in on any new findings of other people.
I don't think anybody would have any problems with you being a part of the wiki and still posting the things that you find on SWF.

 

[Hylian]

those two options aren't exclusive Hylian
the point of the private wiki is getting people who don't share because they get no benefit out of it and would rather use it in tourneys and stuff when people won't know about it to actually share their stuff so that they can get filled in on any new findings of other people.
I don't think anybody would have any problems with you being a part of the wiki and still posting the things that you find on SWF.

Fair enough.

 

[Smoom77]

I couldn't say it better myself J4pu.

 

[EverAlert]

We've spoken about this, so you know I'm willing to contribute. My contributions should be obvious - stickies etc. amongst other threads/posts.

I'm mainly posting to let everyone else know of my involvement.



btw, I was wondering something the same as Hylian, I did still want to update some things here from time to time but I wasn't sure how people felt about it. Good thing it got addressed tbh.

 

[ch33s3]

I think having the wiki not only organizes things and leads to good discussions, but can also choose WHEN to release things. Keeping some stuff secret for a while/indefinitely is a good idea, I've heard some stuff kept away from the public from other characters.

 

[r3d d09]

Like cheese and his stuff ... Nuff said ha

 

[theunabletable]

Gah, I wish I could get in on this, but I'm bad and wouldn't have anything to contribute

 

[FrozenHobo]

i've posted my feelings on player development in the past. personally, i feel a player should learn their character on their own and develop their own play style. it doesn't do any good to get a description on how to do 50 advanced techs when you can't even get the basics right. learning things on your own actually makes doing them in real situations that much easier.

i will preface these comments, however, by saying that having a place for people to get outlines on the basics of a character can be a good thing, if done correctly. now, i have faith in swordgard's management skills to make this a successful project, but i will say that i advise the higher ups to keep some of their secrets. it doesn't do any good for a person just starting out to have access to everything. aside from overwhelming them, you get a person trying to perform outside of their means. use your own judgement to determine how much information is enough.

 

[swordgard]

I think having the wiki not only organizes things and leads to good discussions, but can also choose WHEN to release things. Keeping some stuff secret for a while/indefinitely is a good idea, I've heard some stuff kept away from the public from other characters.

Except that if you know your in game mechanics well enough, nothing is really "secret" : P Problem is, I can tell that ics board have very little info overall on how ics work(especially desynching, no offense to you EA XD).

 

[FrozenHobo]

thats very true. what info we do have on desync techniques is generally vague and pretty limited. hell, we had to have a huge discussion on analyzing kakera's vids to learn just how little we really know.

 

[J4pu]

i will preface these comments, however, by saying that having a place for people to get outlines on the basics of a character can be a good thing, if done correctly. now, i have faith in swordgard's management skills to make this a successful project, but i will say that i advise the higher ups to keep some of their secrets. it doesn't do any good for a person just starting out to have access to everything. aside from overwhelming them, you get a person trying to perform outside of their means. use your own judgement to determine how much information is enough.

I don't think anybody should hold back information for that reason...
It should be up to the person learning IC's to not stretch themselves too thin trying to learn everything all at once and we can always give them advice on what order to start incorporating things.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I don't think anybody should hold back information for that reason...
It should be up to the person learning IC's to not stretch themselves too thin trying to learn everything all at once and we can always give them advice on what order to start incorporating things.

alow me to expound on my previous statement:

assume no one had ever told you ICs could CG. The knowledge that nana could grab after a throw has not even been conceived yet. now, how long do you think it would take before you made this realization on your own? people learn better when they experiment and figure things out at their own pace. if a player has not yet attained the realization that CGs exist then their play style will develop greatly from the person who does know about them. similarly, the person who does know about the existence of CGs will have learned the timing on his/her own and be more proficient at them than someone who has been told the steps to CGing. once the player who doesn't know how to CG sees the person who can CG winning more, he/she will go and try and figure out how the other person was doing it. in this way, they will learn the CGs on his/her own.

now, if the information had been laid out for the non-CGing person right from the beginning, then they would not have bothered to develop their own play style or discover other aspects of the character. instead, they would force a higher level of play on a person who may not be ready to implement them fully into their play style.

its a matter of progression and self-realization. players should learn and develop at their own rate to ensure that they not only play within their means, but don't attempt to introduce a foreign concept that may throw them off entirely. when they are ready to learn a new AT they will either discover it on their own and investigate it further, or they will see another person performing it and work out how to do it for themselves.

 

[DZhou]

Would casual IC players be able to see the wiki?

 

[swordgard]

alow me to expound on my previous statement:

assume no one had ever told you ICs could CG. The knowledge that nana could grab after a throw has not even been conceived yet. now, how long do you think it would take before you made this realization on your own? people learn better when they experiment and figure things out at their own pace. if a player has not yet attained the realization that CGs exist then their play style will develop greatly from the person who does know about them. similarly, the person who does know about the existence of CGs will have learned the timing on his/her own and be more proficient at them than someone who has been told the steps to CGing. once the player who doesn't know how to CG sees the person who can CG winning more, he/she will go and try and figure out how the other person was doing it. in this way, they will learn the CGs on his/her own.

now, if the information had been laid out for the non-CGing person right from the beginning, then they would not have bothered to develop their own play style or discover other aspects of the character. instead, they would force a higher level of play on a person who may not be ready to implement them fully into their play style.

its a matter of progression and self-realization. players should learn and develop at their own rate to ensure that they not only play within their means, but don't attempt to introduce a foreign concept that may throw them off entirely. when they are ready to learn a new AT they will either discover it on their own and investigate it further, or they will see another person performing it and work out how to do it for themselves.

I got a solution to this, just contact me on aim for further details.

 

[B0NK]

Truth.

I completely agree with this because I believe any experienced IC's player can look back and see a similar experience.

I believe that experimentation is a very big part of learning ICs because learning your own visual and auditory cues for CGs is the best way to learn them. I remember that all I really had to start was a video just showing how each CG looked like (such as f-throw, b-throw, d-throw)

And after tourney experience in a couple years, I learned from watching others play styles at tourneys from shinku (only plays melee now), meep, and GIMR new things to add to my game. Such as GIMRs hobbling technique since at first that was all he used. I pick up on some of ICs non-chaingrab play from meep before he knew how to CG. (At first he was doing quite well with ICs with only the d-throw > f-air CG).

Our own experience is a great way to help decide what to release to those new players and what information should be public and/or what suggestion for learning ICs should be in the wiki.

 

[EverAlert]

Although I agree with what Frozen is saying... somehow it feels wrong to force our own "improvement schedule" on newer players...

 

[Sieguest]

I'm not a well springing forth with information, and as it seems, I'm usually incredibly slow on falling upon things on my own, I'm usually just springboarding from other things.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9766972&postcount=3189
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9770430&postcount=3193

That's the best I could probably say I've done =/

 

[Rubberbandman]

Although I agree with what Frozen is saying... somehow it feels wrong to force our own "improvement schedule" on newer players...

This.

A private wiki would in turn limit development of newer climbers in my opinion. If you wanted to get better as a developing Ice Climber player, then what would a private wiki do but hinder this? Also, what would be the limitations to who could view the wiki itself?

 

[r3d d09]

you guys are taking this whole private thing far and beyond. basically anyone could get into it. the only way to stay in it is if you stay active.... how hard is that?

 

[J4pu]

This.

A private wiki would in turn limit development of newer climbers in my opinion. If you wanted to get better as a developing Ice Climber player, then what would a private wiki do but hinder this? Also, what would be the limitations to who could view the wiki itself?

hobo wasnt even talking about the wiki being bad, he specifically said that the "pros" shouldn't even divulge all their tricks even on the wiki.
that said, the post above me explains why the wiki doesn't hinder people, in fact if anything it will advance IC's quicker as a whole because if you want information, you need to attempt to find and produce useful information yourself.

 

[00-Zero]

Sweet, this sounds good.
Here's a post including my explanation of the desync that kakera was doing:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9343158&postcount=10

Also as well as my explanation on something I think I discovered, since there were no previous posts about it anywhere and it hasn't been done on any IC video made (super synced but highly spaced upsmash =] )

Most of my informative posts are just those "clearing up commonly misunderstood things" type of posts, and I'll occasionally give answers to those people that don't like doing much looking for themselves.
I'd still like to be a part of this though.

 

[Prawn]

Is there any chance of getting an invite without the promise of contributing?

I'd like to read a lot of the stuff but idk if you guys consider me knowledgeable or anything and I don't know what I would contribute as far as knowledge goes.

 

[EverAlert]

Not going to happen.

 

[r3d d09]

Contribute via matchup discussion

 

[X-FACTOR]

Is there any chance of getting an invite without the promise of contributing?

I'd like to read a lot of the stuff but idk if you guys consider me knowledgeable or anything and I don't know what I would contribute as far as knowledge goes.

LOL! Prawn.

Spoiler

You better Rep IC when I'm gone, I'm leaving my Power Ranked spot open for you!

 

[r3d d09]

It's bananahammock you're smart. Share PLOX