I need help with ________ matchup!

[-Mars-]

okay yes. sheik does much better against snake and it really does help me. I just can't finish snake off with sheik so I need zelda. he's tough either way...

and shiek does better against toonie? how?

I can understand your problems at finishing off Snake, but I usually stay Sheik even at extremely high percentages and just save my nair and dsmash. Playing one of the best characters in the game with a mid tier character is never going to be easy. Sheik outcamps him and with her fast moveset can put a lot of pressure on him as well. She can punish his ftilts. Zelda isn't necessarily a bad choice either, I might try to write up something after I get back from work.

Sheik is a much better choice against Toon Link. He has a pretty basic pattern on his recovery: you can gimp him with the chain, bairs off of the ledge, simple fairs, needles, plenty of options.

She can also actually deal with spam and get inside of Toon Link much easier. His zoning game all of a sudden isn't that good when you face a character with a little speed. Dash shields from Sheik are a much better option than with Zelda. Needles are also great against campers and discourages a lot of projectile spam from Toon Link. Sheik pretty much outcamps Toon Link if you mix in dash shields in between your charging and a full needle storm will always keep Toon Link weary of pulling out a bomb or boomerang. She can't ftilt that much, but if you set up the tipper....it can kill at like 85%.

Also, if your dying from the second hit of his fsmash just SDI up after the first hit.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok i'm having a ton of trouble with the Wolf matchup....anyone have some ideas?

 

[MrEh]

Ok i'm having a ton of trouble with the Wolf matchup....anyone have some ideas?

Be patient. I think that's the key.

Wolf will obviously force you to approach with his laser, so you're going to be close to him. Wolf punishes mistakes fairly well, since he can pretty much just whip out his Fsmash, Dsmash, or Jabs to punish the ending lag of your moves. So what do you do? Punish him back.

While Zelda's OoS options are inferior to character's like Bowser or Samus, she definately has fast enough attacks to punish Wolf. He Dsmash will come out in about 11 frames OoS, and that's definately enough time to hit Wolf during the lag of his attacks. Usmash comes out fairly quick as well, at 13 frames. (if you Jump Cancel these moves, they can come out even faster, but that's a bit unnecessary though, since you'd have to edit your controller scheme to realistically do this)


Or just utilize the universal Wolf strategy. Throw him offstage and screw with his recovery.

 

[Chis]

As Zelda-
Overall Difficulty: Normal
I never thought this blue hairy thing would be so fast... If used
correctly, this guy can combo even more than Meta Knight can and at a
much faster speed too. Block his Spin Dash whenever possible and just
stay very close to him. What Sonic will usually do is the "every-sonic-
user-knows-combo" which is the Spin Dash followed by a jump, followed
by an UAir which is then followed by a Spring Jump which later followed
by another UAir, -_-'... Either that or the even dumber combo of doing
a Homing Attack right after the first UAir. How to break this "combo"?
Pretty easy, just do not get hit by the initial Spin Dash >_>'. They
are so predictable that if you dodge it and immediately do an USmash,
it is almost guaranteed that you will hit them. Either that or the
overall strategy is to patiently wait for them to dash at you with
either Spin Dash or Spin Charge and right when you see him coming,
release your FSmash, time it right and you will ALWAYS hit him.

You do realise that Sonic can just cancel his Spin charge or Spin dash and punish your reaction right?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You do realise that Sonic can just cancel his Spin charge or Spin dash and punish your reaction right?

you really can't punish Zelda's dtilt, which flat out stops both of sonic's spins.


oh and, BTW, Mega Japan hasn't played or posted here in forever so most of that stuff you see written down is now dated and/or wrong.

 

[Chis]

He can roll behind your Down tilt from the cancel.

Also spin dash and spin charge are bad approaches, there's more to the match then 2 moves.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, Zelda mains are right, D-tilt stopts EVERYTHING Sonic has. Even though only Spindashes has been said, that's basicly all. Why would Sonic use another attack. F-smash is a total **** Sonic attack, grabbing is Sonics worst option, F-air/U-air approaches are terrible, and B-air shouldn't even be discussed. How other than SpinDashing would Sonic approach? Running is foolish, our low priority will never out dash attack trough her F-smash. Running grab? No way, Zelda has F-smash again. Try to Running Shield Grab? NO, Sonic will be shieldpushed too far away to grab. You think you can approach from the air? Think again, U-smash will obviously win from Sonics low priority. Basicly, Zelda already won when she started to press side-B. Sonic is absolutely forced to use side/down-B and approach, which you can F-smash/D-tilt. Sonic has no way to win.

To the people who can highlight, congratulations, you got ASC'ed at a 45 degree angle

 

[Kataefi]

come on now lets not get sarcastic

10dtilts xD

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm not being sarcastic, it's how Sonic is viewed by the community outside of Sonic boards

Highlighting my last post might bring something :O

 

[Kataefi]

you were being sarcastic! who cares what the community thinks? all the better when you win!

Everyone still thinks Zelda spams dins and Usmash :/

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic boards have had enough of winning trough lack of matchup knowledge. We wanna see if we actually deserve to go up in the tier list.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214640

Here, this should really help with Sonic matchups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No, Zelda mains are right, D-tilt stopts EVERYTHING Sonic has. Even though only Spindashes has been said, that's basicly all. Why would Sonic use another attack. F-smash is a total **** Sonic attack, grabbing is Sonics worst option, F-air/U-air approaches are terrible, and B-air shouldn't even be discussed. How other than SpinDashing would Sonic approach? Running is foolish, our low priority will never out dash attack trough her F-smash. Running grab? No way, Zelda has F-smash again. Try to Running Shield Grab? NO, Sonic will be shieldpushed too far away to grab. You think you can approach from the air? Think again, U-smash will obviously win from Sonics low priority. Basicly, Zelda already won when she started to press side-B. Sonic is absolutely forced to use side/down-B and approach, which you can F-smash/D-tilt. Sonic has no way to win.

To the people who can highlight, congratulations, you got ASC'ed at a 45 degree angle

it's true even though it's sarcastic.

Zelda DOES beat out every one of sonic's approaches with multiple attacks. However the sarcastic undertone suggests that sonic can't do ANYTHING against zelda when, realistically, he can bait her into a botched defense and then capitalize on her cooldown.

the reason that Dtilt is so important is because it still reliably counters most of sonic's approaches and is far less punishable if it's whiffed.

it beats out or clanks with all of sonic's ground approaches and it sets up for lots of good stuff with zelda if it connects. Also, sonic can't roll behind it, it has too much range and too much speed. Sonic has to approach aerially against it and that's what zelda is strongest at stopping.

Sonic's just too fast for zelda to flat out brickwall him, but she puts up one hell of a defense.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Does U-smash hit at a 30-45 degree angle?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Does U-smash hit at a 30-45 degree angle?

yes. it would stop that approach.

Fsmash, Ftilt or Utilt might stop it better, but, yes, Usmash can hit that approach without a hitch.

it wouldn't if the approach involved a disjoint like marth's sword, but sonic doesn't have anything that would constitute that.

 

[Jim Morrison]

That's true :/. Sonic does have a hard time approaching, and as you said, best is to stay a while a not too great distance and bait. Best would be doing Spindash Spincancels, faking you into doing a counter-something, after which we will run up. SDSC 4 times in a row suddenly SD for real really works

Perhaps ASCcancel to grab will work too, just outside U-smash range. When you see an ASC land before you, you will either block or Spotdodge (hint: spotdodge to avoid a grab)
Zelda just is a disadvantaged matchup for Sonic, not much else.

 

[Chis]

That Down tilt thing is BS, take it from someone with match up experience.

 

[Kataefi]

lmao I feel your pain chis xD

I find I do best against characters where I can track their movements and counter with something that will keep me reasonably safe. I can't do this well with sonic because he can bait her so well.

He does lack safe approaches against her, but mixing things up makes my head spin! pun intended >.>

EDIT:: chis I have some matches of us recorded. Is it cool to upload them?

 

[Chis]

You can upload them Kataefi.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That Down tilt thing is BS, take it from someone with match up experience.

excuse me? Sonic is one of my most familiar matchups since I play shugo semi-regularly.

if he starts a spin charge or spin dash, I start Dtilting. if he cancels, I have low enough cooldown lag that he can't counter. if he doesn't cancel, Dtilt clanks with spincharge and leaves sonic in zelda's range while keeping him just far enough away that he can't hit her.

you can't just spam Dtilt because, if you do, he can just short hop over it and hit you, but short hops can otherwise be countered by zelda's Upsmash since it'll outprioritize all of his aerial approaches and outlast his airdodge.

It's not that Sonic has no response to the Dtilt, it's just that, if Zelda DIDN'T have the dtilt, any attack she'd use to try to counter a spincharge/dash approach from sonic would have a lot more punishable cooldown lag and/or require stricter timing.

it's not gamebreaking, but because she has it, it allows her to have a safe counter for all of sonic's approaches. Without the Dtilt, it would be rather easy for sonic to penetrate zelda's defenses. All he'd have to do is mix up spindashing and spindash cancelling in front of zelda and she'd have to try to predict when to Fsmash or sheild for protection. It's kinda hard to guess that and punishable if you misguess. The Dtilt is effective enough at stopping spin related approaches that the burden shifts on SONIC to fake out zelda as opposed to the focus staying on zelda to try to predict sonic. it becomes sonic who has to get luckier or end up losing out on the exchange.

As I said before, the Dtilt does not completely brickwall sonic. but it's a solid enough defense that sonic HAS to mix things up a lot to get around zelda's defenses. All said and done, zelda has brilliant defenses that are just plain hard for sonic to get around. Every approach he has can be beaten out by her. every one of them. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not like it's easy for zelda to keep sonic off indefinitely. He's fast enough that he can still get in and cause problems, it's just not very easy for him to get inside enough to give him the advantage in the matchup.

sparknotes:
while zelda has a variety of methods for stoping sonic's approaches, Dtilt and Upsmash alone will counter anything sonic's got and don't require precise timing. This means that sonic cannot even connect with zelda unless he baits her. Now, he's pretty good at baiting and he can keep the pressure on once he penetrates which helps him keep the matchup fairly even, but he should have one hell of a time getting inside any zelda who is familiar with sonic's approaches.

It's not a HUGE advantage for us. it's only 55:45-60:40 in my opinion. but the advantage is there and it's tangible.

 

[GodAtHand]

Having played MemphisChains and Ace, who both main Sonic. Ace not so much anymore I can actually agree with Hedgedawg from experience on this match-up. I think one of the only things that won't stop sonic from spinning all over the place is Din's and you really shouldn't be relying on that to begin with.

Nayru's stops his approach
Dtilt Stops his approach
Well timed downsmash...
Even Upsmash will hit him sometimes.

And considering he has no options besides to approach that kinda sucks... He is also very easy to kill.

But the good thing is that I usually find this match fun! I don't know if for both players but its fun to play a character that can't hit hard but moves incredibly fast versus someone that barely moves and hits like a truck.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Don't take your defense for granted, Sonic is over whole of FD in 1 second O_o. You really can't spam Din's with Sonic 3/4th FD away, he'll run trough going UR 2 SLOW and attack you. And once you've been hit it's quite hard for you to set up a good defense again. Sonic isn't gonna let you retreat while waiting on the other side. He'll be constantly following you. Sonic walk speed > Zelda run speed.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Don't take your defense for granted, Sonic is over whole of FD in 1 second O_o. You really can't spam Din's with Sonic 3/4th FD away, he'll run trough going UR 2 SLOW and attack you. And once you've been hit it's quite hard for you to set up a good defense again. Sonic isn't gonna let you retreat while waiting on the other side. He'll be constantly following you. Sonic walk speed > Zelda run speed.

what zelda worth her salt would spam din's against sonic? Defense was referring to her melee atacks, not her pseudo-projectile.

any good zelda should be familiar with the distance her opponent can travel in the time it takes to detonate din's fire and take care not to use din's inside that range unless the foe is preoccupied. It's a rather large distance for sonic, but it's still a finite distance. IF zelda's using din's inside that range and getting punished, she's being played poorly, it's not zelda's fault; it's the fault of her user.

 

[Jim Morrison]

That is the easiest excuse: it's the players fault, not the characters. It applies to EVERYTHING. If Sonic didn't approach Zelda in an opening, it's also the players fault. But I don't really see what I'm discussing, cause I agree on Zelda advantage 60:40

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That is the easiest excuse: it's the players fault, not the characters. It applies to EVERYTHING. If Sonic didn't approach Zelda in an opening, it's also the players fault. But I don't really see what I'm discussing, cause I agree on Zelda advantage 60:40

oh fine then 60:40 it is. I mean that sounds reasonable. but, I mean, don't go all slippery slope on me.

saying it's the players fault is legitimate if they are doing something stupid. Din's just flat out is rarely a good idea against sonic. I mean there are just some times that it is stupid to use a certain attack against a certain charcter. That is flat out user error. no way around it. Imagine how much worse every matchup would look for DDD if people took into account that he's highly punishable if he uses Up+B to approach you. nevermind the fact that it would take an idiot to spam Up+B as an approach. Same thing applies here with Din's.

 

[Jim Morrison]

60:40 is my opinion, not the boards We got it as 55:45, because we have Side-taunt.

And yeah, you're correct with the approach/punish thingy.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

60:40 is my opinion, not the boards We got it as 55:45, because we have Side-taunt.

And yeah, you're correct with the approach/punish thingy.

I tend to lost to shugo... but that's because he's unfairly good and brawl is what he do But even so. it's not a terrible matchup for Sonic it can't be or shugo would be losing to me. it's probably somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40, but in the end it doesn't really matter. Sonic has the disadvantage, but it's winable enough that he doesn't really need to counterpick to beat her.

that's all that needs to be said I guess. I think our boards have it 55:45 as well and I'm just as fine with that as with 60:40.

 

[Chis]

Let's stop talking about Sonic.

How do you deal with a Metaknight as Zelda?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Let's stop talking about Sonic.

How do you deal with a Metaknight as Zelda?

gotta use sheik too for one thing.

sheik's needles are key. as is spacing/pressure. it's really hard against metaknight because he's so hard to punish, but if you play a really precise game as sheik, you can damage him enough that all it takes is one solid whack from zelda to KO.

 

[Kataefi]

Zelda actually does do quite well if she plays her defensive game perfectly.

Honestly, Utilt trades with a lot of his attacks, and you often get the better end of the trade as he dies off the top at 100%+- (that's if you can get him to these percents ^^)

 

[GodAtHand]

I find Zelda only to be my personal best bet. But my Sheik is only pseudo-good to begin with...

The only good thing about fighting metaknight is that he has to approach you no matter what, how you deal with that approach is what decides the match. Unfortunately Meta has like 8000 moves and strats he can approach with.

Defensive Meta's I find I can beat fairly often with Zelda.

Offensive Meta's are where I will lose most of the time. (KDJ is a good offensive Meta I have played.)

I would like to hear how people are personally dealing with Meta's since I have been seeing more and more of them at tournaments lately. And honestly each match with a meta is rather tense so I would like more strategies and confidence...

 

[Kataefi]

I've been doing a lot of testing on meta knight and I swear she might just have a grab release to regrab on him. But this needs to be finalised and it doesn't look positive because MrEh said it won't work. But still... who knows ^^ *off to test*

All I know is - angle shield up and punish air tornado. Dtilt to parry a grounded tornado. And erm... just use your fastest attacks possible here. Jab / Dtilt / DSmash / Nayru's (can catch him off guard). I start spamming utilt over and over when he SH approaches as it does trade, trust me ^^ get the hitbox out in time and he'll go flying.

Anyways, Ninjalink is the man you want =D I believe he's beaten D1's MK (whether that says a lot, I don't know =/ )

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

honestly metaknights often fail to realize that needles will beat every one of their approaches. it's not a HUGE issue, but if they decide to tornado, well, it's free needle storm damage for you every time.

sheik actually has good priority if you know sheik's spacing well. as long as you are careful to correctly place all your attacks with sheik and never get to greedy, you should be coming farely close to trading damage with metaknight. if you aren't compitent enough with boost smash, sheik isn't going to be as good for you but honestly it works wonders at punishing metaknight. it'll punish retreating tornadoe and grab releases with massive damage or a KO. Metaknight is just about impossible to gimp, b ut sheik's fair has such an excellent trajectory that it can be used to knock him far enough away for an easy trasnform. Also, sheik's dair seems lousy but it has excelent priority and the stall at the begining makes for great fake-outs that have the ability to catch mk by surprise. it also makes you hard to interecept while recovering. Also, sheik's invincibility frames on Up+B can be used agressively to break through any MK attack to land her 'splosion for nice knockback/damage, or defensively for the same purpose. Chain camping won't work well against MK, but the chain's range will work well for a quick sweetspot on an MK lingering right outside your range. Sheik has SO much attack speed that she can normally sneak in some kind of attack to punish an MK whif which is quite impressive and something that most characters can't boast to acheive. Downsmash comes out faster than MK's Downsmash making it a nice GTFO move and sheik's Fsmash has good enough range to connect at a pretty good distance if MK forgets. Sheik's Uair is also semi difficult for MK to counter though his aerials have enough range to make it harder to land most of sheik's other aerials.

Zelda on the other hand plays way different. Fsmash outranges MK for the most part but needs excellent spacing. Usmash punishes pretty much all MK's aerial approaches, but, if it trades, you'll make out lousy in the deal. Zelda's Dsamsh works much the same as sheik's. Zelda's Utilt works a lot like her Usmash. it's a bit less reliable, but it's much more beneficial for you if it trades since it KOs at mild damages. if you can score a uair, you can kill MK at obscenely low damages. Don't spam it, but definitely try to use it whenever you're convinced it'll hit. if his damage is too low to KO, it still does really good damage. Ftilt has as much range as Fsmash really and it's more beneficial if it trades... it also clanks better which is necessary since MK's Dash attack goes through fsmash pretty well. Though normally his dash attack is best countered by Dtilt and a good follow up. Zelda's LKs are difficult to land but they can be game changing. use platformed stages to make landing them (and uair) more easily. her lightning stomp is essentially a non threat, but it CAN punish a botched Shuttle Loop occasionally. Speaking of which: Din's. use it lots. against shuttle loop, against tornado... against a lot. MK has a hard time cancelling it out, he can't dodge it while gliding and he can't afford the extra damage. Utilt and Usmash also **** his glide if he's trying to approach you with it. he destroys zelda's recovery, so play it safe if you're smart... it's not worth the risk to get flashy.

Zelda probably does better than sheik against MK, but she could really use all the fresh KO moves, so if you can use sheik in the early going to build up some damage and keep zelda fresh, then do it. But if you aren't a compitent... a very compitent sheik, then don't bother. it's not worth it. you're better off just using zelda.

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic, I have to disagree with your post completely.....ann I don't think i've disagreed with anything you've said in a very long time:

There is no such thing as priority with Sheik against MK. Not only do his sword slashes have transcendal priority......they also outrange everything Sheik has besides her chain, which I will get to later. You don't "trade" with MK's attacks with Sheik.....I have no clue where you got this from. One reason that it's not that bad for Sheik in this area is because a spaced bair has amazing range that most MK's will completely underestimate.....and if it connects it leads right into an ftilt lock. Most MK players won't realize that if Sheik hits their shield, they get a free up b OoS EVERYTIME. MK for some reason is very susceptible to the ftilt lock and I would recommend finishing with the usmash over the utilt even if he's not in KO percentages strictly for the extra damage. Another good thing about this matchup is that needles are Godly and force approaches through the air with MK that you can deal with easier. Lol, never use dair ever......one of the worst moves in the game. I agree with your statement about Vanish.......exploit the invincibility frames on it whenever you get the chance.......this is a reasonable way to try to hit MK off stage(Vanish Glides).

Now the chain. Believe it or not.....if you have perfect chain usage he can't do anythin about it.............but it has to be completely PERFECT and you have to vary how you move the control stick for his various approaches. His best way to get inside of the chain is a SH dair......but even that is impossible if you use the chain perfectly. I'm currently working on this for myself and am hoping to have it mastered within the next year. If you want to learn more ask Tristan Win about the chain.....it makes matchups like MK and G&W all of a sudden in Sheiks favor if we could ever get this down. The chain also forces MK to recover from above....so if he ever tries to recover low whip out the chain for free damage and a possible gimp if your lucky.

Your right about Sheiks attack speed...her frame 2 nair and her frame 4 downsmash and ftilt are very useful in this matchup. I would also recommend jabbing a ton in this matchup. Please don't use Sheiks fsmash against MK....that is a horrible idea and uair will be very hard to hit with with MK's frame 2 dair protecting his underside. Also one thing that most people don't realize about Sheik is that if you grab the ledge and Sheik has to use Vanish instead of her chain tether.....her recovery is punished everytime. This comes into play even more with MK because of how quick he can get to the stage against her. If your offstage as Sheik....always try to recover low against MK. A ledgehopped fair from MK is much better than you getting hit with a shuttle loop or a dsmash.

Sheik has a guaranteed DACUS off of her grab release on MK that tippers and kills at 85% from the middle of FD. I would much rather play against MK as Sheik....but that just may be me.


Zelda is very intriguing and I am looking more into the matchup recently. Usmash doesn't punish any of MK's aerial approaches besides his glide attack. His fair and dair have greater range than usmash and will both beat it. If the mK player spaces those two moves well.....usmash won't hit a SH approach from MK. I agree, use dsmash a lot in this matchup. Uair outranges his dair iirc....so you can attempt to land these every now and again. Use Dins when MK is offstage to prevent a glide.....but be very wary when he's onstage. A retreating Dins can be safe in some cases.

MK juggles Zelda so easy it's almost laughable. Offstage she dies if you don't immediately use Farore's. But she isn't gimped everytime out there like some people will lead you to believe. I also think Naryus is very good in this matchup.....because of the invincibility frames....this is one move that can actually beat MK's approaches. If you're baited into it though.....your screwed so you have to be very wise with your usage.

Zelda kills this ***** really early and that makes the matchup extremely interesting...........you MUST land some early percentage KO's against MK if your going to use Zelda. This matchup always keeps me on the edge of my seat.

But anyways I think to do well against MK your characetr has to have some glitchy or very good features about them.

Snake- nothing needs to be said

DK- super armor on his Punch and his fsmashs' range

Diddy- bananas

Falco- CG and lasers

Sheik- the chain, ftilt, and needles

Zelda- Naryu's and her KO power

But ya......I think Sheik does better against MK than Zelda. I have a tournament in March that i'm going to .......and i'm going to use Zelda and see what I come up with.

edit: btw.....I was really down on Zelda a few weeks ago but recently i've been rediscovering her potential and how dangerous she can be. In fact, i'm going to change the icon under my name right now. I'm going to be contributing a lot more to her Metagame in the upcoming weeks and trying out some new things and sharing them with you guys.

 

[Kataefi]

omg YES marsulas! But don't forget shiek too

Anyways I might as well list things I'm trying to test out:

- I have semi-beliefs that Zelda could grab release MK and then regrab him - but you need to be almost frame perfect for her to catch up to him and he might be able to jump away. Anyways if this is true, she this would benefit her more in the matchup, but it's looking unlikely at the moment.

- dtilt trip > fair sweetspot works on Bowser/DK and that's it - but I havn't tried trip > Bair sweetspot. I did this once on D3, so it works on him and it could work with ROB and other taller characters. But I havn't got the fingerwork to do this consistently =( maybe someone could try and experiment?

- and if we can finally get all this dtilt 'lock' stuff sussed then we can start trapping people and setting up for early KOs. Would be handy if we knew when it was most effective against every character, and why it sometimes spikes!

- and we need really accurate frame data, like on the peach and falco boards where they list shield stun and hit stun and stuff. We could find hidden approaches we never knew could work unless we could to see if her moves cause enough shield stun for her to quickly sneak in another attack like nayru's / dsmash / dtilt etc...! who knows?

How could I get accurate frame data for her?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, I have to disagree with your post completely.....ann I don't think i've disagreed with anything you've said in a very long time:

agree to disagree then.

a few things:

-Sheik's chain... I'm pretty sure MK's SideB and grounded UpB will beat it out even if it's being used perfectly, which it rarely, if ever, is. and he has enough range to get around it with a plethora of other moves if it's not perfect. especially from behind.

-Ftilt lock. I don't find it too useful against MK.... he just has to SH nair or dair out of it and ouch, you take more damage than he did. not that it isn't still okay, but it's not really reliable unless he doesn't know how to deal with it.

- Sheik's Uair. it's fast and has great power. it's not going to beat out MK's dair if he's sitting there waiting for it, but it's a great punisher if he's ever open.

-Sheik's Dair. I agree. a bad move... however. imagine you normally fall on MK with a nair from above, or something like that. because dair stalls, if MK reacts to sheik being above him under the assumption that she's going to nair and fall, the timing is going to be all off and it'll hit him. it's not an excellent move, but I hate how people just write it off because it isn't one of her go to moves. it has utility and, if you are finding yourself getting countered, it's a big change up that is normally unnexpected and, therefore, good for a surprise.

-Sheik's bair. it's good. it's always good. I just really don't see it behaving any differently vs. MK then it normally would and is, therefore, not worth much mention. keep in mind though, your leg, while the attacking part of you, is still a hurtbox.

-Sheik's Fsmash. Definitely her worst smash in the mathcup. but I see a lot of people avoid it like the plague. it's not that bad. it's horribly punishable, but it's got a lot more, for lack of a better word, "kick" than it's normally given credit for.

-Sheik's Dacus. Great against MK.... horribly punishable if you mess it up... which is easy to do with sheik's DACUS.

ZELDA

-Zelda's Usmash. I'm pretty sure it beats out anything MK has from above her. when he approaches from the side... well... it's just like a little marth heading at you with his fair.

-Nayru's. Ask anyone. I love nayru's. I am not a fan in this matchup. it has too little range and too much cooldown. against most characters, it's utility outweighs this, but often against MK the risk associated with using it seems to outweigh the potential benefits.

- Din's. MK is not really exceptionally fast as far as conveyance is concerned. sure, once he's close enough and not preoccupied it is punishable, as it always is. but at range and when MK is preoccupied, it's great. it counters tornado... that's just peachy.

-Zelda getting juggled. Lucky zelda has a really good airdodge. use it so that you're safe to land and then hope that he gets greedy. if he pursues you as you fall, he'll probably not be able to escape your reflexive USmash... which'll KO at pretty respectable damages. But really. zelda's not comfortable in the air. airdodge through him and uair if you can... that's nice. but don't try to take any of your lightning kicks against him in a dogfight.... it doesn't work....at all.

my personal opinion is that only Zelda/Sheik together can make this a close match if you're against an equally skilled MK, but that, if you don't understand one half of that duo, you're better off not using that half. MK can beat out Zelda OR sheik easily if they are not on their game.

 

[Kage Me]

I'm having some issues with Mario vs. Zelda/Sheik. Neither of them really works well for me, nor does switching.

 

[Bandit]

On MK:
- Dtilt beats his dash approaches, and I have found he has problems getting out of the lock more so than other characters. If Dsmash is fresh, it will kill slightly over 100 near the ledge with ease.
- Usmash greater than glide
- Dair greater than shuttle
- I only use dins when I get them off the stage. MK is so quick on stage that it usually can be punished.
- I found Usmash is not used much in this match. MK can be dangerous without getting into a situation where Usmash can be used. Plus, the punishment for missing is too much.

Zelda is a fortress and MK is a battering ram. The more defense you play, the better you will turn out in this match. I really believe that Zelda is capable of beating MK a fair amount of the time and is a ***** match-up for him to deal with (40-60 I think we have and I agree with at this point).

On Mario:

I don't have too much experience in this match-up, but fireballs can destroy you off stage with either character by taking your second jump away.

 

[NinjaLink]

seems ppl need my assistance. I have zelda vs mk matches if needed. Anything else? Questions?

 

[Villi]

seems ppl need my assistance. I have zelda vs mk matches if needed. Anything else? Questions?

I can't think of specific questions right now, but what's your general strategy against him?

 

[NinjaLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TRai935Vz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1eLtak9bc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsNSftsl7sQ&feature=related

I'll explain further if needed. I'd prolly do the matchup better if i record now but meh. Sadly MKs suck and the only person whos worthy is m2k who cries about vids bein up.

Anyway general strat. Spaced fsmashes are safe. He cant pass it at all. dtilt is ur damage racker. Upsmash/dsmash is killer. Dsmash if u really want him off u bein the feet is invincible or something like that. Fsmash isnt a reliable kill move bein ppl DI out of it. Learn to follow up after the fsmash with a grab or LK. Hopefully others do that besides myself. space ftilts for a mixup. Uptilt as well bein it kills better than upsmash just harder to land unless u cause them to pop with a dtilt. Nair or dair shuttle loop on stage. Use uair when u bait them to airdodge. Use dair to punish shuttle loop offstage when hes tryin to recover.