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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by Linguini, Jan 10, 2009.

  1. Bl@ckChris

    Bl@ckChris
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    ah, yeah, i'm already in shield. its my first reaction to the turnip if i don't feel like i can jump and catch it in time. which reminds me, is the area to catch a turnip bigger if you're in the air, or does it just feel that way? catching on the ground feels impossible, but airgrabs feel comparatively easy.

    jump back fair would either parry the turnip, just get me hit by the turnip, or just whiff, as the peach wouldn't really be close enough for me to jump back and hit.
     
  2. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    I doubt it's bigger chris, although i'm not certain. Just going by how for me it's just as easy, if not easier to catch them while grounded.
     
  3. Bl@ckChris

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    hmm...then it might still be a grab/hitbox type problem. maybe standing grab can't catch what would be a turnip headshot.

    or maybe i just currently stink at catching turnips on the ground but if you could catch them on the ground, i think it'd make things easier...
     
  4. Magus420

    Magus420
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    Smash Master

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    Ground and Aerial Catchboxes
    When on the ground your catchbox is gray and in the air it's blue. The pink/magenta boxes are the item's catch 'hurtboxes' so to speak. They need to overlap before attempting the catch or you'll jab/do an aerial or whatever.

    The hitbox of the turnip is a somewhat small bubble inside the white part. Picture a slightly smaller bob-omb stuffed inside the face of the turnip and that's the part that can hit you.

    Notice how for turnips, the boxes are much taller than they are wide. It's a LOT easier to catch them by being a bit more above or below them than directly to the side when they reach you. Due to their flight path it's especially easy when above them in the air, and with Ganon's hurtboxes being further away on the lower part of the aerial catch box (more disjointed) it makes it even safer. This is why it's very easy to catch them while rising from a jump as they come towards you.
    [​IMG]



    Turnip Catchbox Growth

    Each time the turnip is thrown the dimensions of the catchbox grow by 1.30x. It doesn't happen when dropped. It happens with Mr Saturns as well but I think it's at a slower rate, and probably other items as well.
    [​IMG]

    What a glitched frozen stitch with a giant catch box results in:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW25EnMzzRI#t=1m10s :laugh:

    Teleporting floating stitch mines... :lick:



    Ground Catch Startup Lag

    The aerial catch is instant and has 0 startup time. The ground version, however, is not instant and in Ganon's case the startup is 2 frames (catching it on the 3rd). Peach's item catch on the ground only has 1 frame of startup. If it gets close enough to hit you during the ground catch's startup it'll hit you and cancel the catch.
    [​IMG]



    Loss of Effective Range/Disjointedness on Ground Catch

    Since you can't start the catch until it comes into your range, and the ground catch has 2 startup, you effectively lose an amount of horizontal range/disjointedness of your ground catchbox equal to the distance the item travels during those 2 frames, making it harder to time. A turnip thrown by Peach in the air travels slower than a smash thrown one on the ground, so air thrown ones don't cut into your range quite as much.

    Bob-ombs travel very fast and have very tiny catchboxes (you can just barely see the corners of it in the picture on its left side if you look closely), making ground catching them with Ganon very difficult. Since it's only like a 1-2 frame window for those, you're probably better off powershielding it if she throws it from the ground and you want to send it back at her.

    The colored areas with lines are the distance it travels during catch startup, and is how much it cuts into your safe area.
    __________Turnip Air Throw____________________Turnip Ground Throw (Smash)

    [​IMG]
    _____Bob-omb Ground Throw (Smash)

    [​IMG]



    Min/Max Timing Windows

    These are all with an air throw. They'll be a bit smaller for ground smash thrown turnips when coming at you from the same angles/positioning.
    ____________Min Window: 4_________________________Max Window: 7

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    ____________Min Window: 5_________________________Max Window: 19

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Vestboy_Myst and Kadano like this.
  5. DippnDots

    DippnDots
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    I didn't realize you had that much room to catch them, it's gonna make doing it a lot easier now >_>
     
  6. Dorsey

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    Really cool magus, that's about what I assumed it to be like.
     
  7. Bl@ckChris

    Bl@ckChris
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    Magus, your posts are the best. looks like the best way to catch a turnip (at least when dealing with the floating approach) would be a retreating air grab. at the height she stays at, i'm not sure if i'd even be able to catch it on the ground without getting hit by it.

    always helpful posts. i guess i'm just glad i'm not the only person who finds these massively helpful. i should have vids up in the fairly near future; i want to show you guys what i've done with your info and input
     
  8. Lovage

    Lovage
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    great info magus

    are you on winter break? :)
     
  9. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Awesome Chris, can't wait to see your vids. I'll be sure to give you a full critique if you'd like.

    One thing that's pretty cool with turnips is aerial catch > backwards throw > bair. It's really sneaky :grin:
     
  10. PEEF!

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    Awesome work.

    I'm sure this has been explained before but I promise I looked. What is the secret to consistently wavelanding from the ledge?
     
  11. RestInPeace

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    Chris: I think you can still do the retreating Fair I was talking about, then. Just jump back, catch, press Z to drop, Fair. It sounds like it can all be done in time, but I don't have anyone to test this with right now.
     
  12. Bizzarro Flame

    Bizzarro Flame
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    As again, Magus delivers, too awesome.
     
  13. Doromac

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    Dammit Magus.
    I want your parents to make me a child!
    Having mini Maguses walking around might be useful...
     
    futilejoyrider likes this.
  14. CluelessBTD

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  15. Bl@ckChris

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    oooooh i like that idea. i didn't think about dealing with the turnip and then attacking all in one motion. i'll try this out the next time i can.
     
  16. RestInPeace

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    If its not possible, or you just can't do it consistently, you can always replace the Fair with a Uair. It comes out faster.
     
  17. -ACE-

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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    or like I said, you can fulljump catch, throw backwards, and bair, that way you get priority, range, some speed, and the element of surprise :>

    All of these scenarios are very situational though.
     
  18. Bl@ckChris

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    ooh thats what the throw backwards + bair means. that makes sense now. $mike was saying the whole time "with a character as generally limited as ganon, you have to think outside the box to get around an approach like this". stuff like this is the only way i can imagine getting out of that turnip > fc fair approach.

    once i shut that approach down, it'll be a much more even matchup.
     
  19. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    in that situation you could punch the turnip, grab it and drop it really quick (ZZ), run away which in turn creates several more opportunities(bair), etc. under different circumstances. Not really out of the box i'd say... and BBQ will have a bone to pick with you if he sees Ganon being called limited ;)
     
  20. Bl@ckChris

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    good idea, but the way mike floats in at the speed of the turnip, as soon as i hit the turnip, he'd fair me. he's floating when he throws the turnip and approaching. one of my thoughts was to uair the turnip and catch it, but he hit me out of that too.

    unless you mean jab. but then i'm not sure if i have enough time...i'll have to try it.

    i wish i could find a vid vs ganon of this approach, but no other peach seems to take advantage of it *keeps looking*

    edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxEsz2PQpHk

    it looks like the very first attack, except when i roll away, the dash attack hits me (therefore, that didn't feel like a legitimate solution). however, when whatisfear rolled into it, instead of away from it, it actually looked like a good getaway.
     
  21. -ACE-

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    Are you good with the initial hitbox of the uair yet? You should be able to uair through the turnip and hit him if he's that close.
     
  22. Linguini

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    Lately ive been using turnips against peach alottt; every time a turnip hits your shield it bounces up so you can just jump and catch it. The same applies to when you hit a turnip with aerials.
     
  23. RestInPeace

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    If they're not close enough to Fair your shield before you can move out of it from the shieldstun of a turnip thrown at you, you should be able to throw it back after catching it (instead of shielding like you do).
     
  24. Bl@ckChris

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= ganon vs fox

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBheMsjqLng ganon vs marth

    this is basically what i've done with all the endless questions the last three months. these aren't the best two matches i played that day by far, but of what he's got up so far, they sort of represent where i am. for three months of competitive play, i'd say i've gotten a lot better, with plenty of room to go (ie not overusing down b like in the first vid, although its not normally a problem).

    anyway, comments would be appreciated, and thanks for your help. i'll be sure to keep asking, and keep getting better.
     
  25. TresChikon

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    sumfin's wrong with the fox url.

    anways, you seem to like to challenge marth from above the platform. Granted, dair has good range, but Marth can be super gay and tipper f-smash and u-tilt through it so, it's generally a bad idea.

    and if you want to do the Marth killer you need to angle your shield towards the ledge for it to work.
     
  26. Koskinator

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    empty shorthop into grab is so ****
     
  27. Bl@ckChris

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ3dIZkpVIs it looks like i didn't c&p the whole thing.

    and yeah, especially on YS that ability is all the better for marth. i even commented on the vid that it wasn't a good idea to go to a platform after he died. it's something i'll get with experience, but thanks for pointing it out.
     
  28. Skyshroud

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    Just an observation, but besides getting above Marth, you got predictable coming down. You literally DAired every time in that Marth match I believe. It's decent, but you're asking for them to punish out of shield. Watch how they react to you falling the first couple of times, and then make an adjustment. For example, if they keep putting up their shield, just fast fall and then grab them.
     
  29. Bl@ckChris

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    hmm i wonder if i realized that myself in the moment. i just rewatched, and as you noted every time i came down, it was with a dair. except the last stock. the reason i won was because i didn't come down with a dair, he missed the utilt he would've had if i did the dair, and instead i back aired ftw.

    mindgames? probably not. thats a good point though, he did catch on to my pattern and i paid for it quite a few times. i'll be sure to work on that.
     
  30. StealthyGunnar

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    Just wondering, what do you guys think about the Ganon vs. Link matchup?
     
  31. CluelessBTD

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    For one, I f***ing hate it. It's not a bad matchup for Ganon, but I just get really annoyed with the projectile spam. Ganon can knock the boomerang back no problem with any attack, and catching bombs after they bounce off your shield is pretty easy. Also, we've got the chaingrab.
     
  32. -ACE-

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    Yeah link vs Ganon is close to even imo (Ganon having the upper hand slightly), you really have to be patient and space your attacks while constantly looking for an opening to get inside. One grab = Link has ~100% damage and is possibly off stage.
     
  33. StealthyGunnar

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    Alright. Thanks, guys.
     
  34. DaisyBoo92

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    It'd be 70/30 in Ganon's favour if he had his god**** sword.
     
  35. Divinokage

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    Mm.. I watched the Fox match and I think you get also predictable with that down B. One thing for sure I learned is never use down B when you are either very far from the opponent or even close.. it's very easy to shield and punish right after. For example, he upsmashed you. I think the only way down B could be useful in battle is on reaction for example if Marth Fsmash, you can space down B as Ganon goes backwards on startup, it's pretty funny lol. Or.. during a techchase but thats also risky because if you fail then, you know what happens after. But, anyways I would advise against down B overall always.. it's much better to techchase Fair or Backair, Downair.. since you can follow up after with a grab or another aerial.

    Also I noticed you don't use the maximum range of your moves, I think you must do that. It creates surprises and it's very tough to punish.. you have to train to space correctly. =P
     
  36. Bl@ckChris

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    thanks kage. and yeah, the more i play, the more i realize that, even if i techchase, or think i have a good read for when their shield won't be up, the start up is too low, and can usually be shielded and punished. in fact, i pretty much learned (from a smashfest i got home from a couple hours ago lol) that one of a very few good uses for downB is to punish marths whiffed fsmash. probably at lower percents i'll try to ftilt into something to avoid ending lag punishment, but almost all other attempts to use down B just get me hit.

    spacing and stage teching...two of the big differences between playing other n00bs for the last 2 years and now playing competitively. i'm learning a lot though, thanks to yours and others' input. i wish i had the funds/ride to go to pound 4 to learn from you guys there. maybe some of you can come to HERB3?

    thanks a ton kage.
     
  37. RestInPeace

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    WD OoS against a wiffed Marth's FSmash -> Grab is better imo. For all percents. It leads to a free hit, and another if they DI poorly at low-mid %s.
     
  38. Bl@ckChris

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    i just learned how to do that today (i use R for both shield and wavedashing, so it feels really awkward at first). after a 14 hour smash session i've started to tech and wd oos. in the last match, an hour ago, i finished a close marth match by punishing a missed dair, with wd oos -> bair. felt so good. i also teched a few falco Dsmashes today. but the accomplishment isn't just "that" i teched something. it's that i'm finally getting in the mindset to hit R and smash DI no matter what i think my opponent is doing.

    my spacing still needs work. but with experience i'm getting there.

    edit: so you know, ACE, the steep majority of my playing was done against SlasherKing. he plays mad innovative on green greens.
     
  39. -ACE-

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    At high% just up-b OoS, it'll either kill him or get you a free edgehog/edgeguard.


    Lol slasher. Sounds good man. He told me guys did some dittos too. I'm sure he's gotten a lot better since I last played him.

    Also if you tech a falco dsmash at med/high%, see if you can sneak in a bair of a walltech. That ensures a safe recovery. Glad to hear you're getting familiar with SDI and teching.
     
  40. Bl@ckChris

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    one time i wanted to bair, and i even saw the opportunit. hands were too slow, and the upB was also there, so i just took what i could get. maybe after another 14 hours, i'll level up into being able to walltech bair lol.

    i never really thought about upB oos there. i'll give that a try next time i play. and yeah, slasher has gotten really good. before i started DIing away from pillar combos (...yesterday/today) he had no problems comboing me to high% or even 0 to deathing me. feels good to see those combos end early. correct DI really does make things a lot easier.

    edit: those dittos were epic. and unexpectedly so. he's starting to seriously contemplate using ganon as his real secondary instead of marth. at times, it was giving me more problems than his marth, and he doesn't even play ganon. it was just what i needed, with three ganon ditto MMs in less than a month.
     

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