Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RestInPeace]

I can't Up B OoS. I don't know why, it just doesn't work half the time, so I try to avoid using it since its not reliable.

Chris: Ledge dash! Can you do it yet? I noticed so many opportunities that you could have ledge dash -> grab against that Marth. Also, you don't have to WD OoS first before the Bair if the Marth hit your shield. You can just SH OoS and then proceed.

Also, how do you WD OoS? I use R and Y to WD, so when I'm in shield holding R, I just press Y to jump and tap R again. They're not perfectly smooth, but its good enough for what I need to do with it. If you want those perfect WDs OoS, you can lightshield by not pressing the trigger all the way down. Press the trigger just before it will click (after the click is as far as you can press it), and you will lightshield. Jump OoS and press the trigger all the way to WD.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh, i meant i wd oos grab to back air. and i can ledgedash (significantly better after last night), but not from the left side. i think i have "i'm left handed" johns, cuz that direction just feels weird. i did it a few times last night from the left. i just need to practice more.

and yeah, RIP, thats exactly how i do it too. they look so ugly (more like a triangle jump oos) but they function. i think if i wanna use it against falco after sheild DIing pillar stuff though, i'm gonna have to make it smoother (probably using the method you noted). i want to be able to wd oos ftilt a falco while its multishining or something.

edit: oooh i see what you're saying. but the marth landed in front of me, so that was the only way i could get there. or maybe i couldve sh forward and bair'd...i think i was just looking for an application for wd oos since i'd just figured it out haha

 

[-ACE-]

Chris I wish I could practice with you to prepare you for l0zR and PP's Ganons. They're both good at the ditto. If I play well I beat them, if I'm not on my game, I lose.

 

[DippnDots]

just don't be a wigwam or a teepee and you'll do fine

 

[Divinokage]

I should MM those Ganons with my Falco loll and show them how it feels.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

LOL kage that'd be too good. if it gets recorded and put to youtube, people would be mad confused. i think falco is my least favorite matchup. i understand how to deal with lasers and the combo's, but i still feel like the falco has to do something wrong for me to even get a hit.

 

[Linguini]

I found out some gay *** **** vs luigi yesterday lol.

When luigi is coming from under you, grab the ledge and do the get up attack from the ledge when he up-b's.When you do this luigis coin will usually hit you and turn you around. Tap a and you will jab him. All this happens in a split second and it leaves luigi without a jump and you can just grab the ledge.

haha its so homo, you can mix it up and do like immediate run off uairs and fairs instead of the jab. I know it sounds weird but it works lol

 

[spider_sense]

I should MM those Ganons with my Falco loll and show them how it feels.

Lmao. I'll MM your Falco vs my Ganon. $5?

 

[Requiem]

Few questions;

Why do people almost never use his nair, is it because fair is always the better choice?
Does fair have more reach as his nair?
Is it better to shorthop and instantly uair (rising upair) to hit people, or is it better to push out the upair just before you land (like most cpt. falcons do)?

At what % can people start DI'ing behind you when you dthrow them (assuming normal reactive DI, not sdi quartle circle sheit o.o)?

Is d-B a good choice to tech chase or would fair be a better choice, weighing out the punnishability the d-b has in comparisom to the fair, the the ground it covers, and the knockback it gives.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

I can only answer from my experiences that Nair, for me at least, only works as a combo move to deal some extra damage and keep an opponent close to me and knock them on a platform after the second hit.
Ex. FoD and PKMNStadium I can Up throw to Nair on spacies if they aren't at a high percent and get them on the platform usually after the 2nd hit. If they miss the tech it's great to chase.
It happens sometimes with Marth after a Down Throw but they can DI behind you.

As far as an approach, I never see it have priority too often. Maybe it doesn't come out when I think it should or it just lacks stopping power. More or less Fair comes out a little later but it has more range which makes it a better move to approach and space with.

 

[Dorsey]

The nair isn't practical, but it's still applicable... here's 2 scenarios in which I could use it: 1) As a mindgame.. using the nair instead of a bair/uair when you need an aerial that comes out quick. They will most likely DI it expecting the bair/uair and it the nair *could* throw them off to your advantage. and 2) I like to use the 2nd hit of the nair as an edgeguard if I have the right stage position, but only sometimes. Reverse dropzone nair will work pretty good on a sweetspotter and they are very unlikely to tech--which is the only reason why I would ever even consider it lol. Only in friendlies.

 

[-ACE-]

I basically never use nair, except for rarely using it to combo marth at low% out of dthrow.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

same here ace. works wonder on marth and puff (by experience) DI'ng towards you.

 

[Meme]

Is there any practical way to practice L-canceling?

I tend to mess up the timing when falling from a long distance and when shielded...

Any suggestions?

 

[-ACE-]

You can hit R (or L) multiple times and still get the cancel, which is fine, as long as you stop as soon as you get the cancel. I usually hit R twice when I fair or dair 2 shielding Ice Climbers.

If you don't have anyone to play against, you can practice l-canceling during combos on the cpu and on each fresh cpu stock, practice l-canceling aerials on the cpu while he is invincible (similar timing for l-canceling a shielded aerial).

 

[kupo15]

As far as your d-B question, I love using it to tech chase and use against spacies. Dthrow to d-B is awesome. Depending on their DI on the dthrow, you can purposely use a reverse d-B which reallly messes up their DI. I also like finding opportunities to grounded d-B edge guard spaces specifically with their illusion. Either using it to meet them halfway as they come back, or if they miss and fall on the stage instead. If you backface them, you have your jab in case your spacing is off and need a quick move, you can reverse uair if they go for the sweetspot, you can turn around ftilt if needed, or if they land right you can reverse d-B which usually is extremely unexpected and brings on bad DI.

I guess you could also dthrow, tech chase stomp into a reverse d-B.

Also if your facing a mario, it tears through the fireballs.

For Doc/Mario/Fox/Falco or anyone I guess really, d-B can be a great move to quickly slide in and hit them after they are out of jumps. Even trading hits should still be in your favor. Its great with the spacies and Mario's because if you can catch onto their projectile patterns, you can easily find an opening to slide in there and catch them off guard. They can't do much if you are coming from beneath and they are falling on top of you while locked in their firing animation.

Personally I think the down B is somewhat underused.

 

[RestInPeace]

Against fast fallers, 40s-50s% you can Dthrow->DownB in whichever way they DI. I don't know if they can DI up to jump and get out, but if they DI anywhere else you will hit them before they can tech.

 

[Requiem]

Against fast fallers, 40s-50s% you can Dthrow->DownB in whichever way they DI. I don't know if they can DI up to jump and get out, but if they DI anywhere else you will hit them before they can tech.

Awesome info!

About the nair, I think it COULD have it's uses, as it's a tad bit faster than fair (if you're not talking about the fair hitbox above your head, wich comes out ****ing fast) and has immediate range.

I love using gannondorfs down B as a fear inducing tactic, like crouching for a few seconds and then doing a down B as they approach, do this about 4 times, and they'll be way to scared to approach you from the front when you're crouching, wich makes it fun to suddenly crouch into a jumping upair when they're so affraid of your down B, that they approach you from above.

I think this was called conditioning or something.

And especially against spacies, a clean uair leads to ****.

hate to break it to you man, you can get top 10 with ganon at a national tournament, top 5,sure. but,if you want to get top 1, then switch to another character. do what you gotta do, after talking with alot of other pro's ive made my decision.

Never! I'm going to win with Ganon no matter what!!! I will become the icon that everyone wants to see!

LolRoM2 xD just had to say it. He indeed got top 5 with gannon.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah...any tournament dr peepee is at...you're gonna wanna be a puff main. he'll just crunch through anything else, especially ganon...i know firsthand.

as far as the downB conditioning goes...i assume you'd actually have to hit with some of the warlock kicks before they'd be afraid of it. if they just shield the kick, run over and punish you, then i doubt they'd be too afraid of it. i'm still in the process of using less downB due to this realization.

as for my own question: is there any decent way to avoid getting caught in the complete fox combo of waveshine -> up smash -> uair -> uair?

from what i know i should DI the waveshines away, the up smashes away, and sort of dash dance during the first uair to avoid the second hit, which would get me away from the expected second uair...but it still feels like an all too common occurrence in my matches against good foxes. any ideas?

(avoid the first shine ie get better spacing is, although a good answer, not exactly what i'm looking for )

 

[spider_sense]

I know @ like high percents wizard's foot is a guaranteed kill on spacies. Hell, I remember the conversation Tipman said after doing it to Lambchops.

Lambchops - "That's good and all but it becomes predictable."

Tipman - "Yeah predictable that it killed your a$$!"

lol And Guini think totally different about Ganon winning a national tournament.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

its a great kill as long as it hits. i'll use uthrow wizard foot all day, but if i see fox lasering a short distance away and think i can get him, theres just a good chance he'll turn around, run a few steps, and upsmash me.

it's all about timing...

(still looking for fox combo advice )

 

[Requiem]

its a great kill as long as it hits. i'll use uthrow wizard foot all day, but if i see fox lasering a short distance away and think i can get him, theres just a good chance he'll turn around, run a few steps, and upsmash me.

it's all about timing...

(still looking for fox combo advice )

I was thinking more along the lines of SHFFL happy players, you will either cling, trade, or hit with the wizards foot when times right.

 

[spider_sense]

@ BlackChris a legitimate combo is dair - dthrow - upthrow - d-tilt to upair of f-tilt (works well at low mid percent)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh i meant evading fox's combos (from a few posts ago).

but thanks for that combo. ooh one thing i need to work on is being able to regrab spacies...i always seem a little slow when it comes to that CG.

 

[spider_sense]

oh i meant evading fox's combos (from a few posts ago).

but thanks for that combo. ooh one thing i need to work on is being able to regrab spacies...i always seem a little slow when it comes to that CG.

Oh I'd say DI away at all times if possible, it's kinda hard to which direction to smash DI when you get shine, but you can immediately retaliate with a grab or f-tilt/d-tilt. If fox happens to grab you, try DIing straight left or right AS SOON as you get grabbed.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm that makes it tougher to get the uairs, right? if he doesn't throw me straight up then he's got to jump to a side. i'll focus on that, thanks

 

[spider_sense]

hmm that makes it tougher to get the uairs, right? if he doesn't throw me straight up then he's got to jump to a side. i'll focus on that, thanks

Right and if he tries to uair you can catch him with a falling uair

Here's some vids for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr_3c_AVSD8 (How to fight fox on the stage)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vsciTMhISA (How to edge guard fox appropriately)

 

[RestInPeace]

Uh. There's multiple ways to get out of your said combo.

If you are able to SDI, then just SDI the shine towards them. This will send you to the other side, and they'll be going the wrong way, since there's no way they can react and go the other way. Most of the time, if they try to run towards you to continue a combo, you can grab them first lol.

If you can't SDI, look at this link to see how to deal with them Uairs: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6430241&postcount=1 But, its very hard to do this using Ganon, since he's so fat and heavy. The SDI on the first part of the Uair might be too weak for your SDI to get you away from the second hit. Also, try to avoid dash dancing if you can time the SDI, its much more reliable. It takes some time to get used to, but its actually not too hard.

You're correct about the DI away on the USmash though. I don't know at what percent you are at at the beginning of this combo, so I don't know how far you fly. If possible, DI up and away, and get to the edge.

I hope this helps? The guide from KK is very good.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

thanks RIP. i really liked KK's guide, it made a lot of sense. to get the opposide direction for shine, ASDI wouldn't be enough, like if i were holding the opposite direction while getting shined, would i flip over? cause if thats the case, then i could avoid getting drillshined by either SDIing the drill like kage did in the second video jason posted, or i could ASDI the assumed shine during the drill.

 

[RestInPeace]

No, you have to SDI. If the drill comes first, try to SDI that away too. I'm not sure how SDIing a Fox' Dair works, though. ASDI isn't enough to be sent the other way, I think.

Does anyone know how to get Ganon on the edge to do that marth killer light shield trick but facing forward? I want to be facing off the stage, because I can Uair immediately after my shield is poked, no matter what it is (except for Nair, of course). It hits all the way around me so if they land on the stage and they're high percent, you hit them to the other edge. If not, you just hit them outwards and they die.

I just experimented with Dash Attack to the edge and then hold Z. It doesn't work, you just fall off the side.

Edit: Against any top tier, if you know they're going to approach you with an aerial, you can WD OoS backwards -> Side B forwards. This normally hits them, and sets up for a nice Dair -> Down B tech chase or simply a Fair to send them offstage.

Uhh... For the Kage vs Cactuar video... I can't find the part where he SDIs the Dair. Want to point it out to me?

 

[skrach8]

Y is magus too good at providing frame data? QUESTIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.

I have a comment bout the down b. i was playing as falcon on battlefield vs .... irrelevant.... any who, i crouch canceled a move that gave me a horizontal trajectory, high percents mind you, and i managed to get out of the stun while remaining in the air due to me bouncing off the right platform..... so i used the down b(air version) to pin myself to the left platform thus keeping me alive at some absurd percent. Has anyone used this with ganon?

 

[Dorsey]

You're right RIP, ASDI is not good enough to get you out of fox's dair, only SDI. I'd also like to add though that when spaced properly it makes it near impossible to SDI out of for ganon, or any heavier character. If they have forward momentum and space it so you only get hit VERY briefly by the dair(1 hit or so) and l-cancel to grab(or shine, etc.) frame perfect the odds of you getting out of it are very, very slim. Fox can fool you with the dair too, as in approach you with enough momentum so he will land behind you after the drill to pivot whatever move, which can mess up someones SDI.

It's much easier for a lighter character that receives the full drill to SDI out of it.

 

[Dart]

can i get some ganon advice? not really the matchup but like movement tips and stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yahvR3AEZdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETVrUoqMhUM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urC8FgawWVQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMrlxxUOTSU&feature=channel

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Y is magus too good at providing frame data? QUESTIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.

I have a comment bout the down b. i was playing as falcon on battlefield vs .... irrelevant.... any who, i crouch canceled a move that gave me a horizontal trajectory, high percents mind you, and i managed to get out of the stun while remaining in the air due to me bouncing off the right platform..... so i used the down b(air version) to pin myself to the left platform thus keeping me alive at some absurd percent. Has anyone used this with ganon?

I've done that by accident on PKstadium against a Knee. The problem is I was shocked and fumbled the controller causing it.
Not a bad way to live but if you are late you definitely die

 

[MaJiK]

Y is magus too good at providing frame data? QUESTIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.

I have a comment bout the down b. i was playing as falcon on battlefield vs .... irrelevant.... any who, i crouch canceled a move that gave me a horizontal trajectory, high percents mind you, and i managed to get out of the stun while remaining in the air due to me bouncing off the right platform..... so i used the down b(air version) to pin myself to the left platform thus keeping me alive at some absurd percent. Has anyone used this with ganon?

a reverse to that I was playing ganon and smeesh was playing sheik in a friendly on dreamland
i got hit to the right and he got grab rested
out of reaction to hit him back I down b'ed him and it canceled his momentem at roughly 160%
he lived and I got a double jump out of it

 

[RestInPeace]

I have a comment bout the down b. i was playing as falcon on battlefield vs .... irrelevant.... any who, i crouch canceled a move that gave me a horizontal trajectory, high percents mind you, and i managed to get out of the stun while remaining in the air due to me bouncing off the right platform..... so i used the down b(air version) to pin myself to the left platform thus keeping me alive at some absurd percent. Has anyone used this with ganon?

Why Down B if you can use an aerial with much less lag? Or even just grab the edge. Maybe Down B spaced so that once you're out of your lag, you grab the edge. But that's not for the same purposes as for what you've asked.

You're right RIP, ASDI is not good enough to get you out of fox's dair, only SDI. I'd also like to add though that when spaced properly it makes it near impossible to SDI out of for ganon, or any heavier character. If they have forward momentum and space it so you only get hit VERY briefly by the dair(1 hit or so) and l-cancel to grab(or shine, etc.) frame perfect the odds of you getting out of it are very, very slim. Fox can fool you with the dair too, as in approach you with enough momentum so he will land behind you after the drill to pivot whatever move, which can mess up someones SDI.

It's much easier for a lighter character that receives the full drill to SDI out of it.

If they land behind you consistently due to momentum, you would adapt and attempt to SDI forward instead, no? I think you can still SDI out, unless they land directly on top of you. That's generally frightening for the opponent, though. They can't do anything 100% safe other than Shine and WD backwards. If they do this everytime, just WD OoS the same time they WD -> anything. If they shine and don't WD back, you shield SDI back -> Grab. (I can still never SDI the shine yet).

Or just shield bait and full jump Dair. Or retreating Fair. Or my favourite WD back -> Side B, it leads to so many combos. But these things are only if you're not already getting hit. So its irrelevant.

 

[Dorsey]

A good player should strive to switch it up and not do it consistently; the whole point behind it is to trick your opponent and not let them catch on haha. The important thing is if fox hits ganon with a fraction the the dair, you will proportionally have that fraction of SDI opportunities..

As in if fox hits you with 1 hit of the latter part of the dair a hair away from the stage, your opponent will have 1 chance to SDI and in VERY FEW frames you would have the l-cancel to whatever move. If there's no fault on fox's part the likelyhood of SDIing it is really slim, especially on a heavier character. Jigglypuff breaking out of multiple hit drill w/ SDI is a different ball game.

 

[RestInPeace]

I see, I see.

Do you guys ever, to edgeguard Marth, jump off the stage with a reverse Uair?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i did before. nowadays i look like i'm gonna do the marth killer even if they're above the stage. this usually lulls them into thinking i'm a scrub (which isn't a really wrong observation) and that i'll just hold it there until they get the edge. they usually side b rather close to the edge, and i just jump oos and bair.

usually whenever i go offstage against marths i just get hit by either an early upb or a fair.

edit: i watched the first two vids EP. your ganon seems like its almost acting in spurts. it's like you attack a while and then reset the stage and then attack more later. its good for keeping space i guess, and i should probably be more patient in some of my actions.

i think the main thing i would say is that i don't see any double aerials. sh uair double jump aerial and the like. they can really throw an opponent off guard, and its a good way to keep the offensive or a defensive bair wall. only in the last few days have i added the fulljump fair/dair double jump aerial into my bag of tricks. works wonders against falco...

 

[studly]

hey guys i need some mindset help, and i figured who better to ask than my fellow ganons. ^^ My problem is focus. Lately ive had alot of troubble keeping focus, and when i loose focus i play horrible. Tomorrow im going to a smashfest, and doing horrible there will greatly harm my will to keep playing melee. What kinds of attitudes or mindsets help you guys stay focused when you play? ...and what kind of additudes keep you wanting to come back for more even when you loose?