Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bl@ckChris]

needs more questions...

so, i was lookin around in the good ol archives, and i saw something about that uair out of shield. is there a particular time that that's useful, ie falcon shield pressure or when falco's trying to pillar and misses a short hope or something. those are the two times i think i tried to use it over the last 2 days, but are there any other good times?

 

[-ACE-]

It's good against Falco's shield pressure at times, and great for punishing Marth when you shield a sh fair that isn't fully spaced (typically when the go for a sh double fair). There are a lot of uses since it's Ganon's fastest aerial and has a hitbox with great priority just in front and slightly above Ganon.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the hitbox is pretty solid in front of you. the only problem is between ganon's slow jump and the startup frames on the uair, you're looking at ~12 frames before a hitbox comes out. i imagine itd be pretty hard to uair through falco's shield pressure unlesss they mess up bad.

 

[DippnDots]

yeah i'm pretty sure you can't uair to break falcos shield pressure, even if they delay the dair to mix up, they'll have enough time to react to your jump before the uair does anything. Using a nair instead would be better, but still not a bright idea in my opinion.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Ganon's shield isn't all too safe and at the same time it isn't horrible. It's mediocre. There's definitely better things you could be doing than shielding when playing as any character basically. Just watch spacing, rarely shield grab unless it's blatantly given to you, roll in the direction you think they can punish you the least, Wavedash OoS, Bair OoS, Uair OoS, Full Hop Dair OoS, even Up-B OoS are good if you use them well. Never fear, you have options. Self explanatory stuff dependent on the situation, you just have to be quick enough to realize that stuff. It comes with experience.

In top tier matchups, Ganon's OoS shield game is most successful against Marfs, which is basically what Ace mentioned.

Edit: Actually, has anyone tried instant double jump fast fall dair OoS against a spacie? Is that too slow? In theory, wouldn't it connect if they commit to a shffl'd attack on your shield, then you DJ FF Dair them (maybe full hop Dair is better)? I guess I haven't tried it enough to know for sure. Any one in on this?

 

[-ACE-]

I didn't mean while he's multishining your shield. When Falco is very close and is pressuring you with lasers or sh nair approach it works great (or if they go for a late dair). This is why I said "at times".

the hitbox is pretty solid in front of you. the only problem is between ganon's slow jump and the startup frames on the uair, you're looking at ~12 frames before a hitbox comes out. i imagine itd be pretty hard to uair through falco's shield pressure unlesss they mess up bad.

The hitbox comes out about where Ganon's forehead is (when he's standing) if you're frame perfect on the uair. My bad if I said slightly above Ganon lol. Say what you want about the frame data, this is one of Ganon's best tools in close quarters with Falco, along with fj dair OoS.

yeah i'm pretty sure you can't uair to break falcos shield pressure, even if they delay the dair to mix up, they'll have enough time to react to your jump before the uair does anything. Using a nair instead would be better, but still not a bright idea in my opinion.

Again, it depends on what you mean by shield pressure. It's going to be pretty tough to react to a hitbox that's out in about 12 frames including the jump. Nair is almost never better than uair in this matchup.

Also Loosh, you're right that you shouldn't shield everything, but you should definitely shield Falco's dair approach.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Also Loosh, you're right that you shouldn't shield everything, but you should definitely shield Falco's dair approach.

Situationally speaking of course, mind spacing of course.
If I have the frames/he didn't abuse his correctly, I'd rather retreating SH instant Uair, or F-tilt the bird than have him get me in my shield. Alas, sometimes you have to accept the fact that Falco has frame advantage and you're forced into putting up that shield though

 

[-ACE-]

Well yeah, if he's spaced the dair so badly that you have those options, that's great (like if he were almost whiff in front of you, but would hit your front foot). Then you could retreating aerial or ftilt (might trade hits), if you have time. Otherwise, it's best to shield. From shield you can easily buffer a roll after shieldstun or possibly get a shieldgrab by using shield SDI/ASDI on the shine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree with loosh, shielding is always only a last resort and you're much better solving your problems with spacing and hitboxes

 

[Bl@ckChris]

*thinks about ACE*. *thinks about dr peepee*...i'm taking my personal falco advice from ACE.

i can't imagine trying to just move out of the way of pp. he'd just...do falco stuff. i'll probably work on those roll buffers and ASDI in shield the next time i play with him. can't wait to get my car...

 

[LoOshKiN]

i can't imagine trying to just move out of the way of pp. he'd just...do falco stuff. i'll probably work on those roll buffers and ASDI in shield the next time i play with him. can't wait to get my car...

lol have fun in that shield kid. Don't get me wrong, use whatever works, but I'm pretty certain falco can still do that "falco stuff" to you if you play peek-a-boo with him as you try and negate and win conflicts with a shield.

Have you tried middle-jumping to get around lasers? That's another option to get a hit on Falco, without putting up a shield.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well just when it comes to that dair approach, theres no way i'm (or any other ganon for that matter) going to be able to retreating SH uair him if he spaces it right. against a falco thats doing falco stuff right, when it comes to shield pressure, you're either in your shield or you're getting hit (i mean...thats the idea, isn't it?).

the reason i asked about my OoS options is because i don't like being in my shield, and have the desire to get out of it safely against good falco's. cause idk if you've seen dr peepee face ganon but...if you can't get OoS safely, you're pretty much dead.

and if by middle-jumping you mean double jumping to a height thats neither a SH or a fullhop, then yeah, i try to middle-jump to waveland ftilt. but over my 3 months of competitive play, i havent become quite precise enough to hit it over 50/60%

 

[-ACE-]

i agree with loosh, shielding is always only a last resort and you're much better solving your problems with spacing and hitboxes

This is the only situation where it's best to shield (Falco's dair approach).

lol have fun in that shield kid.

You're being pretty harsh, especially since you and Sveet are wrong about what you're saying lol. I watched some of your vids vs each other (Marth vs Ganon) and I could be really harsh too if I wanted, but I'm not.

If you must know, I originally got the uair OoS advice from Linguini. I started to use it more often afterward and it worked well against DrPP's Falco. You might want to get some experience in this matchup before you start calling people out around here, no offense.

 

[LoOshKiN]

You're being pretty harsh, especially since you and Sveet are wrong about what you're saying lol. I watched some of your vids vs each other (Marth vs Ganon) and I could be really harsh too if I wanted, but I'm not.

If you must know, I originally got the uair OoS advice from Linguini. I started to use it more often afterward and it worked well against DrPP's Falco. You might want to get some experience in this matchup before you start calling people out around here, no offense.

It's fine, and I understand. I had a feeling I was. I guess it's just my aggressive playstyle. It's either highly rewarding for me or just flat out gets me in trouble.

I remember there being an Uuair OoS thread a while back. I don't remember who it was by (Linguini or Tipmann, I think), but what I got out of it was that you can use the C-stick to jump and/or Uair OoS. So control stick up to jump, C-stick to Uair...there is several ways to get that attack out.

I suppose I'll go watch some DrPP and study that matchup some more.

 

[Magus420]

PS to jab is really good against Falco n/d-air and Fox n-air if you're going to need to put up your shield anyway. It's pretty nice in general against those moves and isn't nearly as hard to time as you'd think it'd be since the window's twice as long as it is for projectiles.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, it was actually clue's thread, which was where i saw it from, which inspired me to try to figure out when i should use it.

any ideas on stopping falcon's approach with it? if i'm not in shield i try to use that upward ftilt, but i find myself shielding a lot of nairs and i'm wondering whether i should be looking to buffer those rolls, uair oos, or find a chance to wavedash oos for a retreating aerial to respace

edit: so when you PS, i assume you have enough frame advantage to jab, as long as you realize you powershielded in time to not hold your shield there, right?

 

[-ACE-]

any ideas on stopping falcon's approach with it? if i'm not in shield i try to use that upward ftilt, but i find myself shielding a lot of nairs and i'm wondering whether i should be looking to buffer those rolls, uair oos, or find a chance to wavedash oos for a retreating aerial to respace

Shielding Falcon's nair can lead to trouble, although I know it's hard to avoid sometimes due to Falcon's speed. You can beat Falcon's nair with up-angled ftilt, bair, fully spaced fair, and sh uair/jab if he's close. If possible, try to hit him between the 2 kicks of his nair. Try not to get predictable with buffering rolls, Falcon is great at punishing you if he gets a good read on one.

 

[MaJiK]

so uh when can I see Kage beat mango?
i've been checking youtube every day since I heard and still nothing but a "trailer" for some reason

 

[Divinokage]

so uh when can I see Kage beat mango?
i've been checking youtube every day since I heard and still nothing but a "trailer" for some reason

lol.. patience my friend, patience =P

 

[Doromac]

What Kage said ;l
What is the best way to get around the spacies' pew pews?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

finals week, winter smash season is almost here....

 

[Doromac]

Yup. I just came home from finals.
Two more days amd I get to sleep in.

 

[spider_sense]

What Kage said ;l
What is the best way to get around the spacies' pew pews?

Staying in your shield by wavedashing in out outta shield as well as shorthop wave lands to close in the gaps, and against falco's pew pew you can fair or bair over them, as well as powershield.

 

[Doromac]

Staying in your shield by wavedashing in out outta shield as well as shorthop wave lands to close in the gaps,

OK. I'm good on that part. I already do that.

and against falco's pew pew you can fair or bair over them, as well as powershield.

This is what I really needed more.

Thanks broski.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Ledgehop U-air to regrab...

SO ****ING DIFFICULT! Help?

 

[Divinokage]

Ledgehop U-air to regrab...

SO ****ING DIFFICULT! Help?

lol wow, i dont think ive ever seen that before.. or is it even possible?

Magus plox! =P

 

[Doromac]

lol wow, i dont think ive ever seen that before.. or is it even possible?

Magus plox! =P

It's possible. I think...
I want to say Tipman has done it.

 

[-ACE-]

Ledgehop U-air to regrab...

SO ****ING DIFFICULT! Help?

You just have to get used to it Jim. Hit away and roll to up quickly and hit c-up.

It'll be easy for you in no time.

 

[Magus420]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2276384&postcount=19

I find 1/4 circle Away->Up+A to be the easiest way to do it.

 

[RestInPeace]

KirbyKaze told me to try to avoid shielding with Ganon, because he's bad in his shield.

Watching Linguini shows me that Up B OoS is very good to get out of your shield with an attack fast. I can't seem to do this properly, so can someone help?

When Falco is shield pressuring, shouldn't I just shield DI away? Or attempt a shield SDI his shine away, so that I can grab? And to do this, do you just hold the stick away while in your hitstun (for SDI), and just hold it away at all times (for regular shield DI)?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Ledgehop U-air to regrab...

SO ****ING DIFFICULT! Help?

you know when i read this i thought it meant that you were ledgehop uairing onto the stage and then grabbing the opponent. since i've been playing a peach user for the last 3 hours i was thinking "HELL YEAH THAT MIGHT WORK". then i realized by the answers he just meant regrab the ledge.

would ledgehop uair -> grab have any chance at working? i don't have any chance of trying this now, but i'm curious...

 

[KirbyKaze]

KirbyKaze told me to try to avoid shielding with Ganon, because he's bad in his shield.

Watching Linguini shows me that Up B OoS is very good to get out of your shield with an attack fast. I can't seem to do this properly, so can someone help?

When Falco is shield pressuring, shouldn't I just shield DI away? Or attempt a shield SDI his shine away, so that I can grab? And to do this, do you just hold the stick away while in your hitstun (for SDI), and just hold it away at all times (for regular shield DI)?

Evidently Ganon's shield grab beats everything so just do that all the time.

 

[Linguini]

Apparently only according to you because you don't know how to read my posts correctly.

Ganon has a good shield,but spamming a lot of anything in this game is obviously not a good idea. Utilizing what works well in moderation is another story.

RIP, I think your not using the up b oos in the right situations, that's why it's not working for you. You have to do it after the shield stun or else you will just get stuck in your shield or get hit.

 

[RestInPeace]

Do I let go of shield first?

And against Falcon, you can CC the first part of his Nair and grab him, right? What's the best way to do this, again? I read somewhere that you press R/L in your hitstun + mash A?

 

[-ACE-]

RIP, do you mean jab?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, you'd want to CC to jab not grab. Grab can technically work with very good timing if he connects the 1st kick right when it first comes out, but it's usually not going to work.

If your controller is calibrated just right, you can CC jab by simply holding down & back and pressing A. With my current controller I need to plug it in/reset it while having the stick ever so slightly to the left (not really pressing it to the left but in the leftmost part of the 'wiggle' room in the neutral area of the stick). You can mash A with this method to make it easy and maintain your 'CC' while doing the jabs, so you can try to beat/outspace the 1st kick with a jab, and if it fails and the 1st kick gets you you'll still CC it and then you'll jab him between the kicks by continuing to press A.

If your controller doesn't work well with that method (you'll either turn around then down angled f-tilt or do a d-tilt), you could press and hold down then release it at the right time (after hitlag) then press A.

You could also try holding the control stick in a slightly compensated position for your controller, though it's a lot harder to position the stick quickly in that spot when you want it compared just pressing it into the diagonal notch of the controller and having it work right there.

Another way would be to hold down on the c-stick and you'll get the 'CC'/ASDI down to keep you grounded and can do the mashing A method, but you'd need to begin pressing it during another action or you'll d-smash obviously.

 

[-ACE-]

Another way would be to hold down on the c-stick and you'll get the 'CC'/ASDI down to keep you grounded and can do the mashing A method, but you'd need to begin pressing it during another action or you'll d-smash obviously.

Lol, I do this. It only feels awkward at first.

 

[RestInPeace]

Okay, thanks Magus. I've never thought of the resetting game cube thing as an option to enhance gameplay until now. Wow.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

...its been too long since i've/anyone have asked anything. gotta break the silence:

how do you get through a good peach approach? the sequence is usually:

float -> throw turnip -> fc fair -> jab -> grab -> other stuff

the only thing i can do is catch the turnip. once i get that timing down, it'll sort of neutralize things, but if i can't catch the turnip i just get lit up by this approach. i tried uair oos between the turnip and the fair, but that doesn't usually work.

does anything other than catching the turnip affect this kind of approach?

 

[RestInPeace]

I'm assuming you're already in your shield when this happens? Try to not be in the shield, because that stops you from moving around.

Catch turnip and throw it back? Or just jump back and Fair.